The stark reality of the U.S' position in Afghanistan is driven home by this foreign service agent who has resigned in protest of the futile situation there.

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5EKSBBnzpE

Resignation letter

Funny how this fellow didn't have the irresistible urge to kill people. Not a son of Mohammed, you can tell.

The Mohamedan monster, on the other hand, did resort to the time-honoured Mohammedan argumentation when he found himself conflicted with the kuffar around him. His expression of disquiet was massacre.

No poncy letters for him, eh? No 'the pen is mightier than the sword' girlie stuff.  When a Mohammedan is not pleased, he will kill you, he will burn down your embassy, he will pin his message of displeasure to your chst ith a knife, at the very least he will try to scare you into self-regulation. Like any other religion of peace would.


And what is the reaction from the 'leaders' of the so called 'overwhelmingly peacful muslim community'? They are most concerned about the backlash against muslims.


But these outrages continue to happen precisely becase there has been insufficient backlash.

Quote:

No poncy letters for him, eh? No 'the pen is mightier than the sword' girlie stuff.  When a Mohammedan is not pleased, he will kill you, he will burn down your embassy, he will pin his message of displeasure to your chst ith a knife, at the very least he will try to scare you into self-regulation. Like any other religion of peace would.

Yeh when a Muslim's angry he'll kill 12 soldiers.... when a Christian's angry, he'll murder about 100,000 civilians and turn your country into a nightmare.

Some competition you got going there.

Quote:

And what is the reaction from the 'leaders' of the so called 'overwhelmingly peacful muslim community'?

It's certainly a lot more regretful than the Christian/Western reaction. Half a million kids starved to death "Yeh we think the price is worth it" (Madeline Albright).

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 7^th, 2009 at 9:57pm:

Quote: No poncy letters for him, eh? No 'the pen is mightier than the sword' girlie stuff.  When a Mohammedan is not pleased, he will kill you, he will burn down your embassy, he will pin his message of displeasure to your chst ith a knife, at the very least he will try to scare you into self-regulation. Like any other religion of peace would. when a Christian's angry, he'll murder about 100,000 civilians and turn your country into a nightmare. .

Iraq and Afghanistan were not invaded by an angry Christian. They were invaded because they were sorely in need of some discipline. They were too hairy chested for effete diplomacy.

Afghanistan is a tragic mess. It was a mess even before the Soviet invasion from 1979 to 1989, but the Soviets certainly screwed with the country big time and left it in a bigger mess than it was before, turning it into a safe haven for criminals.

Even then, if the Americans hadn't backed the Mujahadeen, it might have actually had some semblance of normality today.

For the last 30 or 40 years, people have known nothing but war. Most of those involved have had no respect for the ancient culture. They just wanted a theatre of war to heat up their cold war a bit.

---

muso, the Talibaan are the true representatives of the Afghan people, hence their popular support, hence the West's complete inability to remove them.

Afghanistan is a land of Islam, and the Muslims there have fought the British 3 times, and eventually won, and then the Soviets, and next are the Americans.

As brother Yusef Islam told it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiOUGH1iXa4

Had the Taliban had never aligned itself with Usama Bin Laden, it might have still been in government today. Poor judgement by Mullah Omar led to the inevitable invasion of Afghanistan. As a country school teacher he made some piss-poor decisions, including the destruction of the Bamyan Buddhas. He had no right to destroy the cultural heritage of Afghanistan.

The Taliban and Al Qaeda eventually became inextricably integrated. Al Qaeda is an extremist criminal organisation.

By association with Al Qaeda, the Taliban have determined their final fate.

Quote:

Had the Taliban had never aligned itself with Usama Bin Laden, it might have still been in government today.

Actually, it was refusing to hand him over that set them apart from all the other sell outs, who merely nod their heads and perform their master's bidding. That one single simple act, may have cost them their position of rule, but it guaranteed their support by millions of Muslims worldwide and obviously the Afghan and Pakistani people. Even many Muslims who disagreed (and still do) with the Taliban and OBL, respect them because of that decision. They did not sell out, they did not cave in, even if it meant the tough road, and losing their worldly power. You gotta admit it was a pretty selfless act, I cannot think of another leader within living memory who would give up his power like that just to protect one single man.


Quote:

Poor judgement by Mullah Omar led to the inevitable invasion of Afghanistan

I think they knew the invasion was imminent. Whether they handed him over or not, they were going to be invaded, so they took a gamble and stood firm. That was probably the best judgement he's ever made in his life, and which guaranteed him a long lasting place in history.

I can't believe you actually think being a lackey would've been a better judgement. If he had done that, he would've been long forgotten by now, and nobody would care who he was. That judgement could eventually end up making him well known for centuries or even millenia to come.


Quote:

As a country school teacher he made some piss-poor decisions, including the destruction of the Bamyan Buddhas. He had no right to destroy the cultural heritage of Afghanistan.

I find it so sickening that the West was so worried about statues, yet couldn't have given a stuff that so many Afghans were starving and living in such poor conditions (likewise I criticised the Talibaan at the time, for wasting money on explosives to blow up the stupid statues, instead of feeding their people)

Or when they invaded Afghanistan, the news coverage of the mangey lion in the Kabul zoo, whilst starving kids lined the street of their way to the zoo. Despicable. Statues and animals are the priority of a society that has gone astray.


Quote:

The Taliban and Al Qaeda eventually became inextricably integrated. Al Qaeda is an extremist criminal organisation.

al-Qaeda was an orgnisation that the U.S pretty much bred. And which they used to funnel foreign volunteer fighters into Afghanistan. When the war was over, and they had nothing to do they turned their sights on their former 'handlers', all of a sudden they become criminals? The hypocrisy is pretty thick there muso.


Quote:

By association with Al Qaeda, the Taliban have determined their final fate.

Yes, they will become immortal in a sense. They will live on in the history books for eons to come. They will not be swept away as just another collaborating power-mongering regime in the 20th. century chaos that was the Muslim world, but will be the first faint glimmer of hope for a new leadership to come, that is not just a pack of subservient puppets willing to do anyhting to it's people to satisfy it's foreign masters.

Believe me, the other choice would've been much worse for them. They have made the smart choice, you merely don't have the wisdom and foresight to see it.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2009 at 9:36am:

Quote: Had the Taliban had never aligned itself with Usama Bin Laden, it might have still been in government today. Actually, it was refusing to hand him over that set them apart from all the other sell outs, who merely nod their heads and perform their master's bidding. That one single simple act, may have cost them their position of rule, but it guaranteed their support by millions of Muslims worldwide and obviously the Afghan and Pakistani people. Even many Muslims who disagreed (and still do) with the Taliban and OBL, respect them because of that decision. They did not sell out, they did not cave in, even if it meant the tough road, and losing their worldly power. You gotta admit it was a pretty selfless act, I cannot think of another leader within living memory who would give up his power like that just to protect one single man.

Your implicit support of Usama Bin Laden will get you into big trouble. It's by no means mainstream.


Quote:

I find it so sickening that the West was so worried about statues, yet couldn't have given a stuff that so many Afghans were starving and living in such poor conditions (likewise I criticised the Talibaan at the time, for wasting money on explosives to blow up the stupid statues, instead of feeding their people)

I don't speak for the West, I speak for myself. Things like freedom of artistic expression,  and ancient historical monuments matter to me a lot.

People who show disdain for such things are barbarians. I'm talking about the Taliban here, not Muslims in general.

Bin Laden's early life in Lebanon of gambling, drinking and womanising illustrates his real  love of Islam  ::) He was basically a spoilt Saudi rich kid who couldn't get his own way. He used religion for his own means.  

I think it's a pity that the Taliban gave refuge to him. Repressive as their regime was, they could have brought peace and some kind of stability to Afghanistan.  

Quote:

Your implicit support of Usama Bin Laden will get you into big trouble. It's by no means mainstream.

I'm really struggling to see where in that paragraph you quoted I said I support OBL. Just rejecting the prevailing view about the situation does not amount to supporting OBL, only a very shallow mind could come up with such an analysis of the positions I've taken there.


Quote:

I don't speak for the West, I speak for myself. Things like freedom of artistic expression,  and ancient historical monuments matter to me a lot.

More than human suffering?

Regardless, they are their "national treasures", they can do with them what they like. If someone else dictated to us what we could do with what exists in Australia, I'm sure most of those crying about the Buddha statues would be up in arms saying "What right does anyone else have to tell us what to do".


Quote:

Bin Laden's early life in Lebanon of gambling, drinking and womanising illustrates his real  love of Islam

Is someone not allowed to turn over a new leaf? If he did those things in his youth, and then repented and dedicated his life to helping others liberate themselves, does that mean nothing? Is it all just about what he did when he was young?? That's certainly not the way Islam views human beings. We believe anyone is capable of reform, and what they previously did, before repenting is irrelevant.


Quote:

He was basically a spoilt Saudi rich kid who couldn't get his own way. He used religion for his own means.

What means are they? He sacrificed all the material things he had in this world to help those who were under brutal attack by the Soviet war machine... How is that using religion for ones own personal means? I think you want to be angry at him, for what he's supposedly done to the West, and you'll invent anyhting against him to justify that anger, but it's really unfounded. It's all based on the emotional responses the media and the governments who are his enemies desired to elicit in you. Step back and take a more objective look at the situation.


Quote:

I think it's a pity that the Taliban gave refuge to him. Repressive as their regime was, they could have brought peace and some kind of stability to Afghanistan.

They did bring peace and stability to Afghanistan, unfortunately the West didn't want that. They wanted war and turmoil, so they used this situation as a pretext to disrupt it. Never in the history of mankind has a country gone to war merely over not handing over a person for extradition. Besides, how many IRA terrorists did the U.S refuse to hand over to the U.K?? Plenty... It was all a farce and an excuse to invade Afghanistan, they would've done it either way, the Taliban did the smart thing and didn't play their game, and will be remembered for it. You can feel all angry about that if you like, or you can recognise it for the smart and staunch action that it was.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2009 at 11:28am:

I'm really struggling to see where in that paragraph you quoted I said I support OBL. Just rejecting the prevailing view about the situation does not amount to supporting OBL, only a very shallow mind could come up with such an analysis of the positions I've taken there.

The qualifier I used was "implicit"


Quote:

More than human suffering?

There will always be poverty.


Quote:

Regardless, they are their "national treasures", they can do with them what they like. If someone else dictated to us what we could do with what exists in Australia, I'm sure most of those crying about the Buddha statues would be up in arms saying "What right does anyone else have to tell us what to do".

If we destroyed a so-called World Heritage site, you bet we'd get into trouble.


Quote:

Is someone not allowed to turn over a new leaf? If he did those things in his youth, and then repented and dedicated his life to helping others liberate themselves, does that mean nothing? Is it all just about what he did when he was young?? That's certainly not the way Islam views human beings. We believe anyone is capable of reform, and what they previously did, before repenting is irrelevant.

So in summary, you think that Osama Bin Laden is now a reformed person - was that before or after he organised the murder of around 3000 innocent civilians on 911? Was it before he denied any responsibility for it, or after he claimed responsibility for it 3 times on Al Jazeera?

That sounds a lot like implicit or tacit approval to me. I haven't seen any condemnation from you as yet.

Before you change the subject and talk about American Soldiers murdering innocent civilians again, we're specifically talking about Osama Bin Laden here and whether or not you approve of him. Please don't change the subject. Do you support Osama Bin Laden? 


Quote:

41:34 The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend.

That's a bit like the Christian version "Turn the other cheek"

Quote:

The qualifier I used was "implicit"

Even with the "implicit", I'm still struggling to see where my support was in that paragraph you quoted. Can you quote specific words that led you to that conclusion? Or is it merely that I'm on the opposite side of the argument to you, and that therefore logically means I implicitly support him?


Quote:

There will always be poverty.

There will always be human suffering, so save the statues whilst we can? Yeh good retort.


Quote:

If we destroyed a so-called World Heritage site, you bet we'd get into trouble.

We've destroyed plenty of world heritage sites with our mining, and anytime anyone says anything about it, everyone jumps up and down about how the U.N have no right to tell us what to do.


Quote:

So in summary, you think that Osama Bin Laden is now a reformed person

I was speaking purely hypothetically, since I give absolutely no merit to your claims he was a wayward youth in Lebanon. However, it does appear he left behind his youth of wealth and prestige and position, and spent a lot of money in the trenches and front lines in Afghanistan fighting the Soviet invaders. Back then to the Russians he was a terrorist, yet to the Americans and Saudi he was a heroic freedom fighter. Now since that time, his ideas and his beliefs have not really changed at all, only the target of his actions. Was he a reformed individual back then? I would say yes. Is he now? I'll leave you to answer that. I think if you were a Soviet citizen back then, you'd  have a very different take on his situation then and now, than you do as a Westerner.


Quote:

was that before or after he organised the murder of around 3000 innocent civilians on 911?

As I've stated previously I seriously doubt he did it, and I'm not alone, amongst the Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The amount of people who hold this position is growing more and more by the day.


Quote:

Was it before he denied any responsibility for it, or after he claimed responsibility for it 3 times on Al Jazeera?

The only interview in which he clearly speaks about it, unambigiously is the one where he denies it. The other cases are not clear whatsoever. In none of them does he make direct mention of it. sorry but the clear and unambigious outweighs the obscure and implicit.


Quote:

I haven't seen any condemnation from you as yet.

Again as I've stated, I'm not a big fan of the whole "blind condemnation movement". Have you ever condemned the U.S and Australian army for all the innocent civilian lives they've taken? I'm yet to see it... when you start making condemnations, let me know, maybe we can discuss it further. Until then it's all empty speech.


Quote:

Please don't change the subject. Do you support Osama Bin Laden?

I'm not going to change the subject, but really I don't know enough about him to make any statement definitively about him. I believe the "image" of Bin Laden is mostly a media/propaganda mirage, and therefore I'm not really inclined to comment on that "image", since it's mostly a facade created to channel anger and condemnation onto. Bin Laden is not nearly as relevant to this whole situation as you might think. He was merely a catalyst, that was clumsily used by the West, and which has now grown into such a myth that it's taken on a life of its own. The myth of Bin Laden has actually become more powerful, for both sides, than the man himself. The naive and even outright stupid focus on him is testament to the failed strategy of the West in this whole saga. And quite frankly I'm surprised to find someone such as yourself muso, who usually displays a lot of intellectual prowess, making the same old tired and pointless ultimatums of being "with us or against us". You've reduced yourself to being intellectually on par with Bush, and that's really something to be ashamed of.


Quote:

That's a bit like the Christian version "Turn the other cheek"

That's right, and in Islam forgiving someone who has wronged you is greater than taking revenge. And the man who restrains his anger is the greater man. But the provision to take ones "haqq" (truth/right/reality) from the aggressor is also established and is not wrong.

You know my position on the Muslim religion. I have Muslim friends, and I really just see it as another religion with its own moral code.

As far as Osama Bin Laden is concerned, he's an obvious criminal. He's even wanted by the State of Libya for murder.

http://english.aljazeera.net/archive/2004/11/200849163336457223.html


Quote:

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

Also:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2002/sep/10/alqaida.september112001

Then there was this one from your 'reformed' ally:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071013183902/http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/09/07/al-qaeda-tape.html

Quote:

You know my position on the Muslim religion. I have Muslim friends, and I really just see it as another religion with its own moral code.

That's right I do know your position, and that's why I find your statements and questions here to be unfathomable. You're not one of the soren/sprint/yadda/calanen nutter/hate-mongers, so I don't understand why you view this in such an illogical and brainwashed way.


Quote:

As far as Osama Bin Laden is concerned, he's an obvious criminal.

Why is he? Even if he did plan that attack, does it make him even a thousandth as much a criminal as Bush and all the other Western leaders who've slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians?


Quote:

He's even wanted by the State of Libya for murder.

Why is that so surprising? Contrary to the propaganda we get fed Qaddafi is very anti-Islamist. Almost any Islamist movement/leader would be in trouble if they ever found themself in Libya.


Quote:

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

As I said, the supposed claims he admitted it do not even reference the event in question. Thank you.

And that statement from him shows quite clearly that he was worried about the well being of women and children, not the kind of person who'd harm women and children. Or don't you consider Muslim women and children worth protecting? Is only Bush allowed to murder hundreds of thousands in defence of Western women and children, because they're real humans?


Quote:

Also: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2002/sep/10/alqaida.september112001

This article obviously has no credibility whatsoever, since it lists some of the so called "19 hijackers" who are still alive and well and living in their countries till this day (such as saeed al-ghamdi).

See these articles: from BBC and The Telegraph.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2009 at 2:37pm:

Why is he? Even if he did plan that attack, does it make him even a thousandth as much a criminal as Bush and all the other Western leaders who've slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians?

There you go using my wife's logic again. As I said, I was making a point about Osama Bin Laden, not GW Bush or anybody else. A murderer is still a murderer.  He doesn't deserve your defense. Let's stick to the point.

Let's get real here. Do you suppose that the highjackers were working on their own? They were (by his own admission) organised by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was filmed with Osama Bin Laden who was the Emir and Senior Operations Chief of al-Qaeda,  plotting the attacks  together. This video was released later.

Also :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKyWJRRjnU


Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

ON September 12 2001, I was flying to Senegal. When I got to Dakar,  the population was elated with the news. They had no doubt that Osama Bin Laden was behind it and Osama Bin Laden Teeshirts were selling fast at the market. When I got to Bamako a week later, they were selling the same teeshirts there.

I realise that what you are saying is quite mainstream in the Gulf countries at least. That doesn't mean that I understand that view.

As far as Australia's part in the invasion of Iraq was concerned, I was one of the people who protested against that before it happened. That was one of the reasons that I stopped voting Liberal.

Undeniably, a great injustice was done by the US, but two wrongs do not make a right.

If a murderer is convicted in court, should it be a mitigating factor that there have been other worse murders committed? I don't think so.

Numerous Muslims also died in the World Trade Centre. As well as
numerous Muslim Americans there were citizens of Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Turkey and Yemen amongst the dead and missing.

Quote:

A murderer is still a murderer.  He doesn't deserve your defense. Let's stick to the point.

Correct. But you seem to be speaking only about the ewe that butts the  wolf, and nothing about the wolf that ate her lamb.

I am 100% sure that your disdain for Bin Laden is much stronger than your disdain for Bush or Howard or Blair, yet they killed so many more civilians...


Quote:

Also : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKyWJRRjnU Sounds pretty conclusive to me.

Again, nowhere in that video does he claim responsibility for it. You're only bolstering how weak your case is. He might have provided some justifications for it, but nowhere did he admit to doing it.


Quote:

They had no doubt that Osama Bin Laden was behind it and Osama Bin Laden Teeshirts were selling fast at the market.

Now you're really kidding right??? Someone selling a t-shirt is evidence he did it??  ;D
No doubt in the court the U.S had prepared for him, if the Taliban were going to play ball and extradite him, something like that would've been admissable evidence.


Quote:

As far as Australia's part in the invasion of Iraq was concerned, I was one of the people who protested against that before it happened. That was one of the reasons that I stopped voting Liberal.

Ok, that's commendable, but do you condemn the U.S and Australian soldiers??? Or do you support them?

Quote:

Numerous Muslims also died in the World Trade Centre. As well as numerous Muslim Americans there were citizens of Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Turkey and Yemen amongst the dead and missing.

That's right they did, and all the civilian casualties that day, Muslim or not were a tragic loss to humanity, but no more than the thousands killed during that same year by America and her allies around the world. This is about the only difference in our standpoints muso. You seem to think the WTC losses were somehow special. I do not. You seem to think the alleged perpetrator is "more culpable" I do not.

Your opinion about this event and other much more tragic events are purely formed by your emotional attachment to the targets, or lack thereof. And this prevents you viewing the situation logically.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2009 at 4:50pm:

Ok, that's commendable, but do you condemn the U.S and Australian soldiers??? Or do you support them?

Soldiers have always basically followed orders, whether they were German soldiers during the Second World War or US soldiers during the invasion of Iraq.  As far as Iraq is concerned, there has been a commitment made to pull out of there. Their role should be a peacekeeping role.

I certainly feel for the families, whose spouses are tied up in the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. It must be a harrowing time for them.  The whole Iraq adventure was a terrible tragedy for everybody concerned, and that includes the 87,000 or so Iraqis as well as the smaller numbers of troops who were killed (around 5000 I understand).

The first Gulf War and the Iran/ Iraq war were even bigger tragedies.

By the way, I've little doubt that the Blackwater are acting as agents provocateurs to protract their very lucrative contract.

The change of regime in Iraq must strike you as fortuitous though. It has gone from a brutal military dictatorship that killed about 130 cvilians every day to an Iraq is now a Shiite Islamic Theocracy, albeit a puppet one, which will probably collapse when the troops pull out.  

Apart from the Kurds, of course most people in Iraq are a lot worse off.

Quote:

Soldiers have always basically followed orders, whether they were German soldiers during the Second World War or US soldiers during the invasion of Iraq.

Or Talibaan soldiers in Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Were the guards at Abu Ghraib just "following orders" too? Or the 3 soldiers who raped then burnt that 14 yo. girl and her family along with her??


Quote:

I certainly feel for the families, whose spouses are tied up in the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Do you feel for the spouses and families of Talibaan soldiers? Rather than just having a harrowing time worrying about their loved ones who are soldiers, they usually just get bombed to smithereens along with them...


Quote:

The change of regime in Iraq must strike you as fortuitous though.

Fortuitous?? to me it is nothing but a continuation of the West's policy of laying ruin to Islamic lands.

abu - you and your islamic mates can bugger off out of aussie.

watch today/tonight , channel 7 monday night.
its about "enclaves"  muslims

and how us aussies don't like you or your kind.

up yours and bugger off you paedophile praising inbiciles

Quote:

inbiciles

;D imbeciles perhaps??  ;D

I hate it when immigrants come here and don't even know English properly.

abu - you and your islamic mates can bugger off out of aussie.

watch today/tonight , channel 7 monday night.
its about "enclaves"  muslims

and how us aussies don't like you or your kind.

up yours and bugger off you paedophile praising inbiciles

hahahah, idiot - fancy following a sex addicted murderer.
must be warped individual, needing "close monitoring."

are you reading me AFP

Your religion gives you a view of Osama Bin Laden through rose coloured glasses.

In view of the depth of detail we have about the people involved on September 11 and their roles within Al Qaeda, your highly contrived protests that Osama Bin Laden as head of Al Qaeda had nothing to do with it strikes me as being extremely lame, and quite sickening.

What I say about Al Qaeda applies equally to the Taliban through association. They are as thick as thieves.

If you had lost a relative during 911, perhaps your rose coloured glasses would cease to have effect.

Quote:

Your religion gives you a view of Osama Bin Laden through rose coloured glasses.

Not really. You just fail time and time again to really grasp what I'm saying. I haven't even said I have a positive opinion of the guy, and already you're explaining _why_ I supposedly have a positive opinion of him. You're two steps ahead of yourself muso and liable to trip over your own feet soon.


Quote:

In view of the depth of detail we have about the people involved on September 11 and their roles within Al Qaeda

Yeh a great depth of detail, as the articles I posted above mention, half of the 19 have been completely misidentified. If you call that depth, then I'd have to wonder about your shallowness.


Quote:

your highly contrived protests that Osama Bin Laden as head of Al Qaeda

There isn't even an organisation known as al-Qaeda. This name was invented by Western propagandists to provide the appearance of a unified and organised enemy for people to channel their hate and anger onto.


Quote:

it strikes me as being extremely lame, and quite sickening.

Again, more of a emotionally charged illogical blind hatred and anger. Do you express something similar, yet several magnitudes larger for people like Bush and Howard and Blair who were complicit in the murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians? As I mentioned above, I suspect not.

Until you can match the anger and hatred, and even show that it exists within you in much higher levels for those 3, then you just come across as hypocritical muso, sorry.


Quote:

What I say about Al Qaeda applies equally to the Taliban through association. They are as thick as thieves.

Yes.. but does it apply to those who've murdered many hundreds of thousands more? Even though the victims weren't your fellow Westerners...


Quote:

If you had lost a relative during 911, perhaps your rose coloured glasses would cease to have effect.

I can't really predict how I would react, but I'd hope it would be based on logic and keeping track of the reality, rather than submerged in an emotionally charged state of hate and anger.

How would you feel if not just one relative but your entire family had been wiped off the map whilst just sitting in their homes??? Surely if you can make this parallel with 9/11 you should be able to make it with those Muslims who over the past few decades have probably been slaughtered more than any other people on earth... Good exercise, I agree, but try it out on a more befitting scale to get the proper benefit and perspective from it.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 9:48am:

How would you feel if not just one relative but your entire family had been wiped off the map whilst just sitting in their homes??? Surely if you can make this parallel with 9/11 you should be able to make it with those Muslims who over the past few decades have probably been slaughtered more than any other people on earth... Good exercise, I agree, but try it out on a more befitting scale to get the proper benefit and perspective from it.

That is exactly what propagates conflicts - on both sides. Northern Ireland was a good example of this. Feuds are difficult to break.

We need to move on from such thinking if we're ever going to have peace.

Believe it or not, I can actually see it from a Muslim point of view. Westerners have massive blindspots when it comes to the injustice against Muslims. Muslims also have their own blindspots. It's only human.  

Osama Bin Laden may actually be dead already for all we know, in which case, it's all hypothetical.


Quote:

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. (Gandhi)

Quote:

If you had lost a relative during 911, perhaps your rose coloured glasses would cease to have effect.

Right... so why did you bring it up? Why did you ask me to consider if a relative of mine was lost? And then now all of a sudden such thought exercises are not a good idea, since they bring up the idea of revenge and retaliation...

I agree with you, let's cease all the feuds and the vendettas, but the fact is the troops are in Baghdad, Kabul, al-Quds, South Waziristan right now... not in London, Canberra or Washington. If you wish to call people to cease hostilities, then at least address the correct people.


Quote:

Believe it or not, I can actually see it from a Muslim point of view.

I know you can to an extent muso, but you still seem to be blinded by this illogical extra hatred for Bin Laden.. which indicates you're still a little more than one-eyed on the issue.


Quote:

Muslims also have their own blindspots. It's only human.

Very few injustices are perpetrated against Westerners for Muslims to have a blindspot about. Yes they scream the loudest about it when it does happen (because they have the most far reaching media) but in comparison it's miniscule, and I think you're aware of that. You are still a little trapped by the emotional magnification of it though, so that it appears as large or in fact many times larger.

As a Westerner and a Muslim, I think I have a fairly unbiased view of the situation, being in that key position of belonging to both groups.


Quote:

Osama Bin Laden may actually be dead already for all we know, in which case, it's all hypothetical.

Precisely, hence my point above about his myth being more influential than the man himself. And stupidly enough the West just continue to promote that myth, by portraying him as some kind of focus point for everyone's emotions about the subject. This is issue is much bigger than Bin Laden and in reality has little to do with him. He did not begin this conflict as most would like to believe. Even if he was behind 9/11, he merely stoked the fires, for the first time from the other side. The killing of Muslims has been going on with impunity from the time Bin Laden was merely a child. Trying to blame it all on him is just living in a state of denial, and inevitably helping to prolong this saga.


Quote:

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. (Gandhi)

Gandhi was not really in touch with mainstream humanity. Although his views have often been taken as lofty visions for mankind to reflect upon, in reality they are unrealistic. Subscribing to the eye for an eye system (much like the MAD system for nukes) means that stability can occur. Without subscribing to it, only tyranny can occur.

The point is that we must respect the eye for an eye system, and realise that no matter how much of a great superpower we are, our eyes can still be poked out by the smallest little guy we choose to pick on. The eye for an eye system is more about the possible repercussions than it is about poking eyes. But in today's world, one people seem to think their eyes are unpokable, and so they go around poking everyone elses eyes and then whinge like crazy when they occasionally get a poke.