Quote:

Police in a Phoenix suburb are looking for a father suspected of using his car to run over his daughter because she was becoming too "westernised" and was not living according to their traditional Iraqi values. US police say 48-year-old Faleh Hassan Almaleki of Glendale allegedly ran his daughter over on Tuesday at an Arizona Department of Economic Security parking lot in Peoria. The victim, 20-year-old Noor Faleh Almaleki of Surprise, remains in hospital with life-threatening injuries. A second woman, 43-year-old Amal Edan Khalaf suffered non-life threatening injuries. Police say the women are roommates. AP

http://www.smh.com.au/world/father-runs-over-daughter-for-becoming-westernised-police-20091022-h9az.html

either back to iraq or onto an ice floe he goes

We are fortunate this sort of incident hasn't happened in Australia yet - although we have all sorts of other child abuse, torture and murder which are equal to it. It doesn't matter what religion, culture or ethnicity a person is - they can still brutalise their children.

it is the reason that is significant

Yes I know. An educated, middle class person - regardless of their religion - murdering a child because she wants to lead a different life to that of her parents is horrific.

They haven't got the excuse of being poor, drug addled or ignorant.

Wouldn't really call those things excuses either.

At least legitimate excuses.

It still amazes me that people with different values than us, still put themselves among us and complain about it. They should remember why they moved to the west in the first place. Im sure the Islamists will have a good reason why they have to live in the west.  If Islam and sand is so good, why move.

Here's an excellent article by a Danish psychologistt, explaining why Muslims cannot integrate into western society. His insights stem from years of work with Muslim prisoners in Denmark.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/63122/sec_id/63122

pope urban 2 wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 4:58pm:

It still amazes me that people with different values than us, still put themselves among us and complain about it.

Very true. It makes you wonder about Mormons and various Brethren sects who go to great lengths to keep their kids in the fold.

Quote:

They should remember why they moved to the west in the first place.

They move here because their countries are much less pleasant to live (aka poorer) in or because there are far better opportunities for making milliions of dollars here. Does anybody really think immigrants come here because they give a crap about democracy?

It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 5^th, 2010 at 8:45pm:

It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.

Exactly what I thought. I wonder how they study psychology in Denmark - the same "imported" model from the West Muslim countries use?

The Danish psychologist has forgotten the reason for the symptoms he describes: trauma. He makes the Danish mistake of believing that  people from all Muslim countries (as diverse as Africans, Arabs and Persians) are the same population, with the same culture and belief system.

From my experience of working with these groups in Australia, I have seen nothing to suggest that Muslim men are more prone to anger or retribution than, for example, born-again Christians - especially in the prison system. I don't know which countries Denmark is taking refugees from, but I don't believe the same applies to Australia - if it applies to Denmark.

I do think the Dane's arguments apply to some populations - particularly men from rural Northern Lebanon. I haven't seen the same to be true for Iraqis, but I'd say that this is because the Iraqis to emmigrate to Australia from Saddam's Iraq were largely educated and middle class.

And this is the reason for the symptoms the Dane describes: their lower socio-economic status, and their incarceration (a bit hard to overlook that one). Anglo prisoners are just as likely to display the same belief system.

Whether they identify as Danish or not is another matter entirely. I'm not sure how Danish I feel. On an off day...

I've worked with Muslims from all over the place, and I do not see the same phenomenon (with the exception of the Lebs - sorry, but often the case, Muslim or not). I actually find the opposite to be true: I've found Muslims to demonstrate more respect, more reserve, and to definately be more polite, than many Westerners. Maybe we take on a "better class" of Muslim in Australia, but this wasn't the Dane's point.

Supposedly, they ALL act like, well, prisoners. How peculiar.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 5^th, 2010 at 8:45pm:

It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class.

Which of the Danish psychologist's insights into the muslim outlook do you think are incorrect?

Or do you object that he formulated his insights on the basis of discussions with Muslim criminals? Many convert or rediscover their Muslim identity in prison. ARe they not converting/rediscovering 'correct' Islam?

It seems to me that you are deploying the knee-jerk 'I'm non-judgemental' trope (itself a judgement, of course). ARe you 'non-judgemental'?


I am interested to learn how you make judgements.

Big Donger wrote on May 6^th, 2010 at 10:38am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 5th, 2010 at 8:45pm: It makes so much sense to judge a whole group of people based on a psychologist's observations about their criminal class. Exactly what I thought. I wonder how they study psychology in Denmark - the same "imported" model from the West Muslim countries use? The Danish psychologist has forgotten the reason for the symptoms he describes: trauma. He makes the Danish mistake of believing that  people from all Muslim countries (as diverse as Africans, Arabs and Persians) are the same population, with the same culture and belief system. From my experience of working with these groups in Australia, I have seen nothing to suggest that Muslim men are more prone to anger or retribution than, for example, born-again Christians - especially in the prison system. I don't know which countries Denmark is taking refugees from, but I don't believe the same applies to Australia - if it applies to Denmark. I do think the Dane's arguments apply to some populations - particularly men from rural Northern Lebanon. I haven't seen the same to be true for Iraqis, but I'd say that this is because the Iraqis to emmigrate to Australia from Saddam's Iraq were largely educated and middle class. And this is the reason for the symptoms the Dane describes: their lower socio-economic status, and their incarceration (a bit hard to overlook that one). Anglo prisoners are just as likely to display the same belief system. Whether they identify as Danish or not is another matter entirely. I'm not sure how Danish I feel. On an off day... I've worked with Muslims from all over the place, and I do not see the same phenomenon (with the exception of the Lebs - sorry, but often the case, Muslim or not). I actually find the opposite to be true: I've found Muslims to demonstrate more respect, more reserve, and to definately be more polite, than many Westerners. Maybe we take on a "better class" of Muslim in Australia, but this wasn't the Dane's point. Supposedly, they ALL act like, well, prisoners. How peculiar.

The point of the article (and his book) is to present the underlying conflict of perspective on the world. He presents the different, incompatible, outlook of Islam and then shows how that different outlook manifests itself when Muslims are in a western country, confronted by laws and rules that are contrary to Islam. Prison is, of course, the best place to study Muslims who have manifestly come into conflict with western law and values.

The point is NOT that muslims prisoners are representative of Muslims as regards obeying the laws. The point is that the incompatibility of Islam (as it applies to all Muslims) comes into a sharpre relief when seen among Muslim prisoners. Muslims in or out of prison will integrate to the degree that they leave Islam behind. That's the point.

Badly behaved western prisoners similarly bring into sharp relief the culture of the lumpen underclass.

I read that article Soren, and found it very straight forward common sense, particularly liked the Kierkegaard quote in it too, about needing to know where somebody "is", before you can help them, which is precisely why we have the disagreement about how we need to treat muslims, because the simple fact is that they have a different ideal to us, a different concept of who they are, and most importantly, a different concept of where they are.

Now the guy set out his recommendations, which are straight forward, and incontrovertibly based on wide professional experience, and sound logic, so here is what he says;
During my years as a social worker, and later as a psychologist for antisocial individuals, I have realized that the only, reasonable way forward is to follow this three step procedure:

1) Provide guidance and help. If this does not work, then,
2) Establish Boundaries and limitations. If this does not work, then set
3) Consequences.

What I say here might seem to be more political than psychological. However, it is my extensive experience in giving therapy to Muslims that has led me to make this statement:  We should not permit the destruction of our cities by lawless parallel societies, with groups of roaming criminal Muslims overloading of our welfare system and the growing justified fear that non-Muslims have of violence. The consequences should be so strict that it would be preferable for any anti-social Muslim to go back to a Muslim country, where they can understand, and can be understood by their own culture.


Now many will say that is intolerant, and we should just keep making exceptions for muslims, but the simple fact is that to do so is harmful to ourselves, and our culture, and it is at that point that nobody of any moral decency can honestly argue that we should promote self harm for the benefit of others.

That is what it amounts to, self harm, when we go beyond the clear guidelines set out by this forthright, but honest, assessment.

The sooner we see all government departments setting these standards, the better.

The term he used to describe muslims as running "lawless parallel societies", is not an uneducated verbalisation of some cultural prejudice, but a statement of fact, observed and documented all over europe, where muslim migration has seen the same results, when allowed to isolate themselves due to excessive political correctness, which is an oxymoron of epic proportion in these circumstances.
So let us hope that this man's findings make their way onto all the desks that matter, and we see a change of direction where western cultures are encouraged to protect their own interests, and other cultures are taught to respect that.

But are Muslims really lawless? Islam is an authoritarian, draconian religion that tradtionally has always carried out harsh penalities against wrongdoers. Many Muslim groups are extremely crime prone when they immigrate to Western countries -- perhaps even more so than when they are in their home countries. Could the leniency of Western civilization in interaction with them (coupled with an intense hatred of us) be the cause of this? Or they little different even under the totalitarian regulatory eye of Islam?

Soren wrote on May 6^th, 2010 at 11:05am:

The point of the article (and his book) is to present the underlying conflict of perspective on the world. He presents the different, incompatible, outlook of Islam...

Yes, I noticed that. If he employed an actual research method, he'd finish with a conclusion rather than start with one. His point is usually known by the term "bias".

The prelevance of similar attitudes in the (non-Muslim) lumpen underclass demonstrates the stupidity of his argument.

More toilet paper for the bored (I read it). I see it's piqued Mozzoak and Imperium's interest. Flush after use, boys.

I didn't even read it, shithead.

aikmann4 wrote on May 6^th, 2010 at 2:39pm:

I didn't even read it, shithead.

You're more enlightened than those of us who did, then, old boy.

Big Donger wrote on May 6^th, 2010 at 2:17pm:

Soren wrote on May 6th, 2010 at 11:05am: The point of the article (and his book) is to present the underlying conflict of perspective on the world. He presents the different, incompatible, outlook of Islam... Yes, I noticed that. If he employed an actual research method, he'd finish with a conclusion rather than start with one. His point is usually known by the term "bias".

He didn't start with a conclusion. He started as a psychologist and social worker. He drew conclusions after working with Muslims for years.

He identified some clear underlying differences and cornerstones of worldview and distinctly Muslim self-justifications by the prisoners he worked for. He has presented his insights and ideas in a book (in Danish) and now in an article in English.

You confuse bias with diagnosis. Just because he doesn't think it's a good idea to ignore Islam's documented incompatibility with Western values and societies does not mean he is biased. Not liking a poke in the eye with a burnt stick is not 'bias' against burnt sticks.

Quote:

Or do you object that he formulated his insights on the basis of discussions with Muslim criminals?

Yes.


Quote:

It seems to me that you are deploying the knee-jerk 'I'm non-judgemental' trope (itself a judgement, of course). ARe you 'non-judgemental'?

Regretfully, I'm probably as judgemental as you are. My opinions about Muslims are based on the extensive experiences I've had with them. Can you say the same?


Quote:

Many Muslim groups are extremely crime prone when they immigrate to Western countries

So were the Irish immigrants to America in the C19th and other poverty stricken migrant groups.


Quote:

Yes, I noticed that. If he employed an actual research method, he'd finish with a conclusion rather than start with one. His point is usually known by the term "bias".

I just thought that needed repeating.

The seemingly intractable assimilation problems among non-English speaking non-Europeans (particularly among immigrants from Islamic cultures) were reluctantly admitted by the late Jerzy Zubrzycki (the so-called 'father of Australian multiculturalism') not long before he died.

He observed the struggle of Lebanese immigrants to integrate, manifesting as academic failure, unemployment, illiteracy on an alarming scale and entrenched hostility towards other, more assimilated, Australians.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1244597665/8#1

Quote:

The seemingly intractable assimilation problems among non-English speaking non-Europeans (particularly among immigrants from Islamic cultures) were reluctantly admitted by the late Jerzy Zubrzycki

The sad thing is he had to see it before his own eyes before he could come to such an obvious conclusion. A total lack of foresight, providence and an elevation of cheap, short-term gains fairly characterises most Western politicians of the second half of the 20th century.

Soren wrote on May 6^th, 2010 at 3:00pm:

You confuse bias with diagnosis.

Diagnosis? What's he diagnosing?

Muslimness.

Once again, he has overlooked the diagnosis. People respond to stress in exactly the way he describes. It's not a Muslim phenomenon at all.

Many African Christian immigrants coming from war-torn countries demonstrate the same "symptoms".

Here's the precise, this may help you.


Anger
Muslim culture has a very different view of anger and in many ways opposite to what we experience here in the West.

Locus of control
There is another strong difference between the people of Western and Muslim cultures; their locus of control. Locus of control is a psychological term describing whether people experience their life influenced mainly, by internal or external factors.

Self reflection vs. consequence
The "education pyramid" is standing upside down in the West; less freedom in the beginning, more self responsibility as one gets older. In Muslim culture the pyramid stands with its wide end down; few expectations to follow civilized behavior as a boy, and less freedom as one grows more competent, to support one's own family and religion.

Muslim identity
Being a Muslim clearly overrules whatever national identity one has. Samuel P. Huntington - author of The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order - described a "U" analogy. My findings are very close to those of Huntington. The tops of the two "towers" of the "U" are where Muslims feel "belonging to the Umma" (the world wide Muslim community), and "belonging to the tribe" (sticking together with other Muslims in the same geographical area). At the bottom of the “U” is national identity. For Westerners it is the opposite, our "U" stands upside down.  Our feeling of obligation to the country where we live is stronger than our religion or group.

Honor
Honor is a central concept in the Muslim culture.
What kind of honor needs to be protected by threats of terror and boycotts? Is this really honor?  Maybe if seen through the glasses of a culture based on a book written 1400 years ago. However, when seen from the perspective of modern Western psychology, it surely is not. From our perspective such behavior is closer to being dishonorable.

Having to constantly keep up one’s appearances, becoming insecure and reacting aggressively when criticized is the result of low self esteem. Unfortunately the Muslim culture tells its men that criticism must be taken completely personally and met with childish reactions.

Consequences of failed integration?
"Do you think violent conflict between the Muslim and Western worlds can be avoided?" A majority of all 24 countries think that this conflict can be avoided. However, this is not the same as believing that such peaceful development will actually occur. Overwhelmingly, 22 countries out of 24, in the survey expected that the “interaction between the Muslim and Western World is getting worse."
This survey clearly showed that while there is widespread hope for a peaceful outcome between the tensions of Islam and the West, people are seemingly very pessimistic.  
Things are not going in the direction of peace.
Personally, my own conclusions match those of the survey. I believe that a violent conflict can be avoided. However, the chances of achieving that are getting slimmer and slimmer every month.

Quote:

.....This survey clearly showed that while there is widespread hope for a peaceful outcome between the tensions of Islam and the West, people are seemingly very pessimistic.   Things are not going in the direction of peace. .

jihad

Again, you're assuming that there is one Muslim stamp, indelibly imprinted on each and every Muslim, as diverse as Chinese Uyghurs to Sudanese to Indonesians to Persians to Arabs to the Malcolm X types in American jails.

I saw my dentist yesterday (a Muslim Arab). No anger, external locus of control, pathalogical ideas of honour - just a humble, and very professional, dentist. He doesn't match the mould. An abberation?

I was on the train yesterday, and a collection of Muslim kids got on at Parramatta - perhaps 50 kids of different ethnic backgrounds. The carriage was quiet. They read books and talked about their homework (I can't believe I'm commenting on kids' train behaviour. It must be my growing senility).

The psychologist's "diagnosis" does not add up when applied to the majority of Muslims in my city. It's such a stupid argument, I'm suprised I'm taking it seriously. The article isn't based on anything, it's just one guy's bigoted rant.

I'm not saying people CAN'T demonstrate the issues he's talking about, and I know that some cultures do - some Muslim cultures too. But to say that Muslims can't assimilate because of their belief system (and that they all have the same belief system) is ridiculous.

It doesn't match my experience at all. In fact, I'd say the opposite: educated, hardworking Muslims actually add to the places they settle in. I've known a number, and I've found them - and their families - to be gracious, patient and relaxed - good company too. Nothing at all like this silly, bigoted stereotype. The Muslims I've known love the West.

The Danish psychologist (and others) are basing their views on ideologies like the Samuel P Huntington thesis and a Western mood created by September 11.

And this is their bias.

I'm not taking a liberal, multi-culti view on this. I'm taking a view based on my experience. If my experience ("based on hundreds of interviews") leads me to believe otherwise, I will.

Otherwise, I can't see it as anything other than stupid shock-jock heresay and Christian fundamentalist paranoia.

Alright, since both of you have decided to have a war of shared anecdotes, I'm going to provide a counterbalance to your little dispute and bring in raw data.

Firstly, as Karnal points out, "Muslims" are a highly heterogeneous population group. You could say that they do tend to have some core values that are shared across the entire breadth of their group, but evidently as we see those values tend to attenuate (or intensify) according to the population group. One could not say that Turkish Muslims in Istanbul practice the same brand of Islam as Wahabbist zealots in the Arabic desert. The faith and values of Islam will have influence where-ever it is found, but it will always pale in comparison to how a population group that espouses Islam chooses to practice it. The factors that determine the nature of the faith, from group to group (and within groups, as well) will be the same factors that determine all human behavior; environmental influences not under the direct control of biological differences, and human biological differences.

So what do we know about the possible differences of those that embrace the Islamic faith? The answer of course will vary from group to group. Looking at say, the Middle Eastern / North African region (the core of Islam), and placing general intelligence under the microscope as the trait examined in question (and using the research of Lynn, Vanhanen and various other scholars as our source) we do know that the entire region seems to be quite homogenous in the average distribution of this trait, and that on the global scale, the average of the region is securely positioned on the average. It may be surprising, but Middle Eastern populations are more or less average for the world on this measure, being neither outstanding nor subnormal. Of course, being globally average puts them at 1 standard deviation below Europeans (and about 1.2-3 standard deviations below Northern Asians), but this is not our present focus.

It is important at this point to clarify that I am not interested within this discussion to talk about the causes of these differences. Anybody can draw the inference from this post on the basis of my previous posts what I might think could be causing a large percentage of this gap, but for the purposes of this discussion it frankly doesn't matter. Even if the studies are off by whatever fraction of a standard deviation, I'll still bet my bottom dollar that the means generated by them have considerable acccuracy and definitely real world validity. Regardless of the cause, the ramifications of such a disparity are there for the Middle Eastern world; lagging in academic environments, lower global economic competitiveness, a harder to control population, etc. Helian already put it quite well about our lovable Lebanese minority population.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/images/article-images/crane_all_crimes.gif

The only group that outcompetes the Lebanese when it comes to criminality are the dregs of South East Asia, the Vietnamese. The Muslim Lebanese as a population group, even here, are boneheads (see Fat Pizza). The Druze behave quite differently; biologically, they seem to be quite different from other Lebanese, and culturally as well.

And this is just general intelligence. Unfortunately I can't get into discussing all the other ways that Middle Eastern populations could be different from us according to other psychometric variables; I doubt there has been much research regarding this question, and secondly, these other psychometric variables are not as throughly understood as general intelligence and are much more problematic. Does this mean however that I don't believe (for whatever cause) that there are major personality differences here? No way! They're certainly there and most definitely have considerable effects on the nature of Islam from population group to population group.

You point out of course, your examples of highly educated Arabs etc. who arrive from the Middle East to work. If you really think that products of selective migration actually provide a representative sample of an entire population group, you are sadly mistaken. This reminds me of those individuals that praise Indians for having one of the highest average incomes (I think the highest) in the United States and for being a race of computer whizzes and engineering geniuses. What you're really looking at is the creme of their respective population (and it is a smacking large population!). The Indians and Arabs who tend to 'stay home' (or go to Europe) tell the whole story. Of course, even we're provided with a broader sample in the form of our Lebanese migrants. Even then though, as I have said before, I don't really want these 'highly educated' immigrants here either, but that's not the point of this discussion.

Still, your point is a good one. The nature of Islam is varied. Very varied. It varies like many things, between groups and within groups. But as Soren would definitely agree, its influences are still there and these influences are most likely highly inappropriate within a Western context. I'm not overtly hostile to Islam (In fact, I sort of like it in many ways), but I still slam the door on it.

Karnal, next time you go for root canal, mention your quiet admiration for Israel's tenacity.
I dare you.

Quote:

So were the Irish immigrants to America in the C19th and other poverty stricken migrant groups.

They were poor yes, and they were treated very poorly (many would often lament that it would be far better to be a black slave than an Irish freeman working in a factory). Yet, where are they now? Indistinguishable from European Americans... :(

The funniest thing about this whole debate is how muslims put their own culture and religion on a pedestal of moral superiority, but the simple request of being expected to obey the rules of the countries they migrate to is then claimed as an assault on their freedom.

The only thing it is an assault on is criminal behaviour, and if muslims feel over represented in that group, then raise your kids better.

The fact that both karnal and annie are ignoring is that this guy was dealing with criminals, in jail, which means they were either repeat offenders, or the magnitude of their criminal behaviour was so great that they needed locking up.
Anyone familiar with western legal systems knows that this does not happen over trivial misdemeanors.

So the bottom line is that if you do not like the image that these scum sucking criminals reflect onto islam, then support the stricter guidelines suggested to either make these scumbags respect our laws, or deport them to a place they feel will tolerate their thieving violent ways.

Maybe they can send you a postcard, that would be after they have learned to write with their left hands, having lost the other one for their first offense in the much more tolerant, and humane muslim lands they returned to.

Quote:

The funniest thing about this whole debate is how muslims put their own culture and religion on a pedestal of moral superiority, but the simple request of being expected to obey the rules of the countries they migrate to is then claimed as an assault on their freedom.

I don't really know of many cultures that don't do this, and the glaring double standard that you're describing is actually quite normal. Everybody is out for themselves and their group, and they'll convive, conspire, complain and subvert to get what they want. It reminds me of the current Arizona illegal immigration controversy that is going on in the United States; Mexicans complaining about Arizonans coming down "hard" on people who violate the immigration laws of the United States, yet at the same time, the Mexicans have a much more gruesome (and I suppose effective) way of dealing with illegal immigrants who cross over into Mexico from Guatemala; machine gun nests. Multiculturalism as an official ideology is an exquisite invitation for all the opportunists of the world to pursue their interests in the midst of aliens, and now, its even becoming acceptable for them to *overtly* do so, making the whole situation even more ridiculous and insane.

mozzaok wrote on May 7^th, 2010 at 5:54pm:

The fact that both karnal and annie are ignoring is that this guy was dealing with criminals, in jail, which means they were either repeat offenders, or the magnitude of their criminal behaviour was so great that they needed locking up. Anyone familiar with western legal systems knows that this does not happen over trivial misdemeanors.

No, Mozza. That's actually my point. Would you like to be judged by a psychologist's assessment of bogan Aussies in Long Bay?

A study of the criminal element within a culture is not representative of that culture as a whole.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 7^th, 2010 at 7:17pm:

mozzaok wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 5:54pm: The fact that both karnal and annie are ignoring is that this guy was dealing with criminals, in jail, which means they were either repeat offenders, or the magnitude of their criminal behaviour was so great that they needed locking up. Anyone familiar with western legal systems knows that this does not happen over trivial misdemeanors. No, Mozza. That's actually my point. Would you like to be judged by a psychologist's assessment of bogan Aussies in Long Bay? A study of the criminal element within a culture is not representative of that culture as a whole.

Criminals in jails, openly rejecting western jurisdictions in the name of islam - not representativ.
Terrorists and head-hackers who commit attrocities in the name of Islam are not representative.
Muslim hoons beating up life guards are not representative.
Muslim 'youths' burning cars and rioting in France for weeks - not representative.
Muslims raping 'Aussie pigs Leb style' are not representative
Muslims blowing up trains and shooting commuters in India are not representative.
Muslims flying planes into building, shouting 'Allahu Akhbar' are not representative.
Muslims self detonating in underground trains and buses in London, above ground trains  in Madrid, bars in Bali are not representative.
Imams comparing western women to cat's meat are not representative.
Muslims on welfare in Melbourne plotting an attack are not representative.
Other Muslims plotting an attack on Holdsworthy are not representative.
Muslim psychiatist killing his 'comrades in arms' on an American army base is not representative.
Disproportionate number of Muslim prisoners in every western country  - not representative.
Jihad against Rushdie, cartoons, South Park are not representative.
Muslim killer of a Dutch film maker, a Japanese translator are not representative.
Muslims raping scandinavian women like it's an industry - not represenative.
Muslims killing Thais, Hindus, Africans in the name of Islam are not representative.
Muslims occupying a school and killing children in Beslan are not representative.
Muslim suicide bombers in pizza parlours, buses, markets, universities are not representative.
Muslims occupying an embassy and taking hostages v
Muslims kidnapping olympic sportsmen are not representative.


Every time (ie daily) a Muslim does something evil - it's not representative.

For a useful idiot like you, Annie and Karnal, the list can be as long as your arm -but to your mind it will not be representative.

Not fair Soren, Annie is right, it most certainly is not representative, and I should have phrased my response more intelligibly so the fact that I do not dispute that was obvious.

Of course I do not consider the extremists as "representative", but they most certainly are "indicative", and the difference between the "good" muslims, and these extremists, and thugs, is a tissue thin veil of normality, which could fall at the slightest wind of change, and if it does these "normal" muslims would revert to the behaviour that their warrior founder planned on, unquestioning, unthinking, support for the ummah.

This behaviour is deeply implanted in their psyche, the obsessive behaviours, which to all intent and purpose define Islam as cult like in it's stucture, and the psychology it creates for it's members.

Funnily enough just yesterday I had someone discussing the burqa issue, and their stance was that it is a case of free will, and personal choice, to which I totally agreed.
The factor we disagreed on is that I equate the free aspect of Islam is so absolutely suppressed from birth, that they are more like the people from jonestown who freely drank the poisoned cordial, and they do not even comprehend personal freedom on the level we are discussing.

mozzaok wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 8:03am:

The factor we disagreed on is that I equate the free aspect of Islam is so absolutely suppressed from birth, that they are more like the people from jonestown who freely drank the poisoned cordial, and they do not even comprehend personal freedom on the level we are discussing.

The mistake many of us make is that we judge Islam solely as a religion and don't quite understand that it is also an expansionist, vengeful, militaristic political system that demands of every Muslim his absolute loyalty in defence of its goals by whatever means available.

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2010 at 10:21pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 7:17pm: mozzaok wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 5:54pm: The fact that both karnal and annie are ignoring is that this guy was dealing with criminals, in jail, which means they were either repeat offenders, or the magnitude of their criminal behaviour was so great that they needed locking up. Anyone familiar with western legal systems knows that this does not happen over trivial misdemeanors. No, Mozza. That's actually my point. Would you like to be judged by a psychologist's assessment of bogan Aussies in Long Bay? A study of the criminal element within a culture is not representative of that culture as a whole. Criminals in jails, openly rejecting western jurisdictions in the name of islam - not representativ. Terrorists and head-hackers who commit attrocities in the name of Islam are not representative. Muslim hoons beating up life guards are not representative. Muslim 'youths' burning cars and rioting in France for weeks - not representative. Muslims raping 'Aussie pigs Leb style' are not representative Muslims blowing up trains and shooting commuters in India are not representative. Muslims flying planes into building, shouting 'Allahu Akhbar' are not representative. Muslims self detonating in underground trains and buses in London, above ground trains  in Madrid, bars in Bali are not representative. Imams comparing western women to cat's meat are not representative. Muslims on welfare in Melbourne plotting an attack are not representative. Other Muslims plotting an attack on Holdsworthy are not representative. Muslim psychiatist killing his 'comrades in arms' on an American army base is not representative. Disproportionate number of Muslim prisoners in every western country  - not representative. Jihad against Rushdie, cartoons, South Park are not representative. Muslim killer of a Dutch film maker, a Japanese translator are not representative. Muslims raping scandinavian women like it's an industry - not represenative. Muslims killing Thais, Hindus, Africans in the name of Islam are not representative. Muslims occupying a school and killing children in Beslan are not representative. Muslim suicide bombers in pizza parlours, buses, markets, universities are not representative. Muslims occupying an embassy and taking hostages v Muslims kidnapping olympic sportsmen are not representative. Every time (ie daily) a Muslim does something evil - it's not representative. For a useful idiot like you, Annie and Karnal, the list can be as long as your arm -but to your mind it will not be representative.

You mention a lot of one-off incidents here. Is Russia's slaughter of Chechnyan civilians representative of Christianity? What about Serbia's attempted annihilation of Albanian and Bosnian Muslims? Maybe Adolf Hitler's holocaust against Jews? Civilian casualties of America's war on terror? These few examples have killed more civilians and caused more terror than all of yours combined.

All sorts of people do evil. The list is about what Muslims do in the name of Islam. That's the difference.

That's a cop out, Soren.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 5:22pm:

That's a cop out, Soren.

It is not a copout, it is the only pertinent point in all discussions about Muslims. The list I gave you are acts committed by Muslims as Muslims. I didn't list ordinary crimes that all sorts of people commit. I mentioned only things that they do under the self-justifying cloak of their muslim identity.
I take them at their word and don't infantilise them. If they say they do something with the blessing of Islam, I believe them.

Quote:

I didn't list ordinary crimes that all sorts of people commit.

And I did? Genocide isn't exactly something that the average criminal commits, now is it?


Quote:

If they say they do something with the blessing of Islam, I believe them.

There's your mistake.

Well I can most certainly understand Annie's perspective, I used to hold the same views myself, and to a very large degree, I still think they are very valid, I do howvere hold a far deeper mistrust of Islam than I previously did, so whilst I agree that we should not tar all muslims with the same brush, as terrorists, or criminals, we do still need to recognise behavioural traits they do share.

BTW, I LOVE Annie's avatar, it's worth starting an argument just to see it.

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2010 at 10:21pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 7:17pm: mozzaok wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 5:54pm: The fact that both karnal and annie are ignoring is that this guy was dealing with criminals, in jail, which means they were either repeat offenders, or the magnitude of their criminal behaviour was so great that they needed locking up. Anyone familiar with western legal systems knows that this does not happen over trivial misdemeanors. No, Mozza. That's actually my point. Would you like to be judged by a psychologist's assessment of bogan Aussies in Long Bay? A study of the criminal element within a culture is not representative of that culture as a whole. Criminals in jails, openly rejecting western jurisdictions in the name of islam - not representativ. Terrorists and head-hackers who commit attrocities in the name of Islam are not representative. Muslim hoons beating up life guards are not representative. Muslim 'youths' burning cars and rioting in France for weeks - not representative. Muslims raping 'Aussie pigs Leb style' are not representative Muslims blowing up trains and shooting commuters in India are not representative. Muslims flying planes into building, shouting 'Allahu Akhbar' are not representative. Muslims self detonating in underground trains and buses in London, above ground trains  in Madrid, bars in Bali are not representative. Imams comparing western women to cat's meat are not representative. Muslims on welfare in Melbourne plotting an attack are not representative. Other Muslims plotting an attack on Holdsworthy are not representative. Muslim psychiatist killing his 'comrades in arms' on an American army base is not representative. Disproportionate number of Muslim prisoners in every western country  - not representative. Jihad against Rushdie, cartoons, South Park are not representative. Muslim killer of a Dutch film maker, a Japanese translator are not representative. Muslims raping scandinavian women like it's an industry - not represenative. Muslims killing Thais, Hindus, Africans in the name of Islam are not representative. Muslims occupying a school and killing children in Beslan are not representative. Muslim suicide bombers in pizza parlours, buses, markets, universities are not representative. Muslims occupying an embassy and taking hostages v Muslims kidnapping olympic sportsmen are not representative. Every time (ie daily) a Muslim does something evil - it's not representative. For a useful idiot like you, Annie and Karnal, the list can be as long as your arm -but to your mind it will not be representative.

What about the Danes, invading the rest of Europe in the name of Thor, and eating the testicles of the vanquished?

Representative?

The Northmen kick the living poo out of Muslims in the coolness factor though.

http://www.ivargault.com/bilder/vikingraid_2.jpg

"Oh God, save us from the fury of the Northmen!"

It's hard to imagine how terrifying these blonde haired, blue eyed giants were to everybody they terrorized and encountered; Europeans, Arabs, and even Native Americans weren't spared from their raids.

Big Donger wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 6:25pm:

Soren wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 10:21pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 7:17pm: mozzaok wrote on May 7th, 2010 at 5:54pm: The fact that both karnal and annie are ignoring is that this guy was dealing with criminals, in jail, which means they were either repeat offenders, or the magnitude of their criminal behaviour was so great that they needed locking up. Anyone familiar with western legal systems knows that this does not happen over trivial misdemeanors. No, Mozza. That's actually my point. Would you like to be judged by a psychologist's assessment of bogan Aussies in Long Bay? A study of the criminal element within a culture is not representative of that culture as a whole. Criminals in jails, openly rejecting western jurisdictions in the name of islam - not representativ. Terrorists and head-hackers who commit attrocities in the name of Islam are not representative. Muslim hoons beating up life guards are not representative. Muslim 'youths' burning cars and rioting in France for weeks - not representative. Muslims raping 'Aussie pigs Leb style' are not representative Muslims blowing up trains and shooting commuters in India are not representative. Muslims flying planes into building, shouting 'Allahu Akhbar' are not representative. Muslims self detonating in underground trains and buses in London, above ground trains  in Madrid, bars in Bali are not representative. Imams comparing western women to cat's meat are not representative. Muslims on welfare in Melbourne plotting an attack are not representative. Other Muslims plotting an attack on Holdsworthy are not representative. Muslim psychiatist killing his 'comrades in arms' on an American army base is not representative. Disproportionate number of Muslim prisoners in every western country  - not representative. Jihad against Rushdie, cartoons, South Park are not representative. Muslim killer of a Dutch film maker, a Japanese translator are not representative. Muslims raping scandinavian women like it's an industry - not represenative. Muslims killing Thais, Hindus, Africans in the name of Islam are not representative. Muslims occupying a school and killing children in Beslan are not representative. Muslim suicide bombers in pizza parlours, buses, markets, universities are not representative. Muslims occupying an embassy and taking hostages v Muslims kidnapping olympic sportsmen are not representative. Every time (ie daily) a Muslim does something evil - it's not representative. For a useful idiot like you, Annie and Karnal, the list can be as long as your arm -but to your mind it will not be representative. What about the Danes, invading the rest of Europe in the name of Thor, and eating the testicles of the vanquished? Representative?

'ken oath it is. Holger Danske will return.

mozzaok wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 6:13pm:

BTW, I LOVE Annie's avatar, it's worth starting an argument just to see it.

The return of the repressed....

:D

Quote:

Well I can most certainly understand Annie's perspective, I used to hold the same views myself, and to a very large degree, I still think they are very valid, I do howvere hold a far deeper mistrust of Islam than I previously did, so whilst I agree that we should not tar all muslims with the same brush, as terrorists, or criminals, we do still need to recognise behavioural traits they do share.

Thank you, Mozza. I'd be interested in hearing why you developed a distrust of Islam, if you don't mind sharing.

Turkey's long and arduous limp back to Europe indicates that Islamic societies (even one where secularism is constitutionally guaranteed) still have some way to go before they come to terms with the modern Western European secular state.

Turkey's attempt to disqualify the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen from leadership of NATO because he refused to apologise for cartoon depictions of Mohammed, indicates that it is not genuine in its claimed full embrace of Western ideals.

Although Turkey ultimately dropped its objections when it woke up to the fact that the country's chances of entering the European Union were harmed by them, it gives pause for thought about whether Islamic peoples will ever be ready to fully embrace Western democratic ideals.

Let's hope to god Turkey never gets accepted into the European Union. Islam or not, it would a mad thing to do; Europeans will see an inundation of poor Turks into their countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmrIrH1Sut0

aikmann4 wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 6:46pm:

The Northmen kick the living poo out of Muslims in the coolness factor though. http://www.ivargault.com/bilder/vikingraid_2.jpg "Oh God, save us from the fury of the Northmen!" It's hard to imagine how terrifying these blonde haired, blue eyed giants were to everybody they terrorized and encountered; Europeans, Arabs, and even Native Americans weren't spared from their raids.

Thistles
by Ted Hughes

Against the rubber tongues of cows and the hoeing hands of men
Thistles spike the summer air
And crackle open under a blue-black pressure.

Every one a revengeful burst
Of resurrection, a grasped fistful
Of splintered weapons and Icelandic frost thrust up

From the underground stain of a decayed Viking.
They are like pale hair and the gutturals of dialects.
Every one manages a plume of blood.

Then they grow grey like men.
Mown down, it is a feud. Their sons appear
Stiff with weapons, fighting back over the same ground.




Ted Hughes, to my mind the greatest (English) poet of the last century (or two) was a Yorkshire man, a Northerner: a Dane in the old sense.

So it was the Turks, eh?

I could have told you that years ago. Never trust a Turk. He's good with cold steel though, you can say that about him. Damn good soldier, your Turk.

Big Donger wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 8:16pm:

So it was the Turks, eh? I could have told you that years ago. Never trust a Turk. He's good with cold steel though, you can say that about him. Damn good soldier, your Turk.

Clark Kerr is best remembered in the public imagination for a much reproduced note he is said to have written in 1943 to Lord Pembroke while Ambassador to Moscow.[1]


My Dear Reggie,
In these dark days man tends to look for little shafts of light that spill from Heaven. My days are probably darker than yours, and I need, my God I do, all the light I can get. But I am a decent fellow, and I do not want to be mean and selfish about what little brightness is shed upon me from time to time. So I propose to share with you a tiny flash that has illuminated my sombre life and tell you that God has given me a new Turkish colleague whose card tells me that he is called Mustapha Kunt.

We all feel like that, Reggie, now and then, especially when Spring is upon us, but few of us would care to put it on our cards. It takes a Turk to do that.

Sir Archibald Clark Kerr





http://www.ntk.net/2000/02/25/moscow.gif

Good lord, they're coming out tonight.

I hope Reggie saved the dear fellow from Mr Kunt.

Whatever is a Turk doing with a business card?

Not business, you can be sure of that.

Big Donger wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 8:42pm:

Good lord, they're coming out tonight. I hope Reggie saved the dear fellow from Mr Kunt. Whatever is a Turk doing with a business card? Not business, you can be sure of that.

Whooosh......


Over you head -again...

Winston churchill had a few things to say about the Turks, no doubt inspired by Mr Kunt:

From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent...

Turkey and Persia are both profoundly alarmed and disturbed at the claims which are being made upon them and at the pressure being exerted by the Moscow Government. An attempt is being made by the Russians in Berlin to build up a quasi-Communist party in their zone of Occupied Germany by showing special favours to groups of left-wing German leaders. At the end of the fighting last June, the American and British Armies withdrew westwards, in accordance with an earlier agreement, to a depth at some points of 150 miles upon a front of nearly four hundred miles, in order to allow our Russian allies to occupy this vast expanse of territory which the Western Democracies had conquered.




I imagine we should thank the Russians now.

Big Donger wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 8:57pm:

Winston churchill had a few things to say about the Turks, no doubt inspired by Mr Kunt: From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent... Turkey and Persia are both profoundly alarmed and disturbed at the claims which are being made upon them and at the pressure being exerted by the Moscow Government. An attempt is being made by the Russians in Berlin to build up a quasi-Communist party in their zone of Occupied Germany by showing special favours to groups of left-wing German leaders. At the end of the fighting last June, the American and British Armies withdrew westwards, in accordance with an earlier agreement, to a depth at some points of 150 miles upon a front of nearly four hundred miles, in order to allow our Russian allies to occupy this vast expanse of territory which the Western Democracies had conquered. I imagine we should thank the Russians now.

So a Kunt is not a Kunt - and proud to put that on his card - because Churchill spoke of the Iron Curtain. Like many others, you remind me of Martini in One flew over the cocoo's nest -you are passing the ball to people only you can see.

Soren wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 9:07pm:

Big Donger wrote on May 8th, 2010 at 8:57pm: Winston churchill had a few things to say about the Turks, no doubt inspired by Mr Kunt: From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent... Turkey and Persia are both profoundly alarmed and disturbed at the claims which are being made upon them and at the pressure being exerted by the Moscow Government. An attempt is being made by the Russians in Berlin to build up a quasi-Communist party in their zone of Occupied Germany by showing special favours to groups of left-wing German leaders. At the end of the fighting last June, the American and British Armies withdrew westwards, in accordance with an earlier agreement, to a depth at some points of 150 miles upon a front of nearly four hundred miles, in order to allow our Russian allies to occupy this vast expanse of territory which the Western Democracies had conquered. I imagine we should thank the Russians now. So a Kunt is not a Kunt - and proud to put that on his card - because Churchill spoke of the Iron Curtain. Like many others, you remind me of Martini in One flew over the cocoo's nest -you are passing the ball to people only you can see.

My dear, dear fellow. A martini should only be drunk after 5. Of course, I prefer it English-style, without the vermouth, thank you very much.

What is this obsession the Americans have with vermouth and lemon twists?

Your Turk won't touch the stuff - prefers hashish, you know. Perhaps poor Kunt had had one too many when he went into the printers.

dickhead debate ITT

Not with language like that I won't, dear. Mother taught me manners. ITT indeed.

Big Donger wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 9:31pm:

Soren wrote on May 8th, 2010 at 9:07pm: Big Donger wrote on May 8th, 2010 at 8:57pm: Winston churchill had a few things to say about the Turks, no doubt inspired by Mr Kunt: From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent... Turkey and Persia are both profoundly alarmed and disturbed at the claims which are being made upon them and at the pressure being exerted by the Moscow Government. An attempt is being made by the Russians in Berlin to build up a quasi-Communist party in their zone of Occupied Germany by showing special favours to groups of left-wing German leaders. At the end of the fighting last June, the American and British Armies withdrew westwards, in accordance with an earlier agreement, to a depth at some points of 150 miles upon a front of nearly four hundred miles, in order to allow our Russian allies to occupy this vast expanse of territory which the Western Democracies had conquered. I imagine we should thank the Russians now. So a Kunt is not a Kunt - and proud to put that on his card - because Churchill spoke of the Iron Curtain. Like many others, you remind me of Martini in One flew over the cocoo's nest -you are passing the ball to people only you can see. My dear, dear fellow. A martini should only be drunk after 5. Of course, I prefer it English-style, without the vermouth, thank you very much. What is this obsession the Americans have with vermouth and lemon twists? Your Turk won't touch the stuff - prefers hashish, you know. Perhaps poor Kunt had had one too many when he went into the printers.

Thank you , Mustapha, be seated.

Big Donger wrote on May 8^th, 2010 at 8:16pm:

He's good with cold steel though, you can say that about him. Damn good soldier, your Turk.

And that's good luck for them... A potent secularist army... That'd be the only thing preventing the country from descending into the hell of an Islamic theocracy.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 9^th, 2010 at 8:26am:

Big Donger wrote on May 8th, 2010 at 8:16pm: He's good with cold steel though, you can say that about him. Damn good soldier, your Turk. And that's good luck for them... A potent secularist army... That'd be the only thing preventing the country from descending into the hell of an Islamic theocracy.

Is that a quote from mustapha attawank?
Perhaps his cousins mustapha attacrap, or mustapha attapiss will hwlp karnal get the play on words.
Do you think he really did not get it, or just chose to ignore it?

I would have chosen the latter, but you just cannot tell, we are all wired differently.

mozzaok wrote on May 9^th, 2010 at 7:22pm:

Is that a quote from mustapha attawank? Perhaps his cousins mustapha attacrap, or mustapha attapiss will hwlp karnal get the play on words. Do you think he really did not get it, or just chose to ignore it? I would have chosen the latter, but you just cannot tell, we are all wired differently.

Didn't get it, I reckon.

So you reckon it was a second language comprehension issue?

You may be right, but I really do not get Karnal at all, most members here I can visualise pretty well, and assign them stereotypical characteristics for the type of person I believe them to be, but Karnal refuses to fit any attempt I make to categorise him, and I see posts which go from deeply insightful and empathic to oddly bizarre, with no hint of deliberateness about it.

Initially I thought Karnal was an extremist redneck loon pretending to be foreign so as to further the negative cultural stereotyping of cultural elements we have some conflict with, but I doubt that first impression was right, so I have to admit to still being puzzled about where he is coming from.

Not sure myself.

My guess is that he's from an immigrant family who knows enough of the Australian vernacular to imitate it reasonably well but not completely.

He seems to enjoy ironic humour... which can fall flat with no verbal inflection or visual cues.

He's a Pakistani who's grown up in an English speaking environment and has studied postmodernist theory (god help us!) at uni.

Of course it is fruitless to speculate over such things, but I must admit to creating images in my mind of the people I interact with on the forum.
It would be an interesting exercise to pick images from the web of what we think each character here looks like.
I reckon it would be funny to see how close, or how wildly wrong we could get it.
I may start a thread on it.

"Picture Match"

I will start with one of me. ;D

---

Mozz!  :o



Congratulations!  


You've lost weight... How did you do it?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/thegreekpirate/Getting%20crunk%20in%20405/HPIM0025.jpg




Imperium?

Quote:

Initially I thought Karnal was an extremist redneck loon pretending to be foreign so as to further the negative cultural stereotyping of cultural elements we have some conflict with, but I doubt that first impression was right

You thought Karnal was a false flag operation at first? This is a bizarre first impression. He's just a minority that espouses liberal orthodoxy. The only thing that is pecuiliar about him is that he has a tendency to carry on with a joke for a very long time, but like bad sketch comedy, he doesn't realize when the joke was never funny in the first place and continues on with it regardless of who is laughing.

There are hundreds of thousands of 'Karnals' in every university campus, political message board and office-park across the entire Western world. An anomaly he is not.

Annie: You caught me. I'm one of those self-hating jiggaboos.  :D

I found Annie anyway.

http://chattahbox.com/images/2009/06/burqa_afghanistan.jpg

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 12:28pm:

The only thing that is pecuiliar about him is that he has a tendency to carry on with a joke for a very long time, but like bad sketch comedy, he doesn't realize when the joke was never funny in the first place and continues on with it regardless of who is laughing.

Yes, humour is a bad traveller.

I doubt he's first generation though. I think he missed the point of Soren's post because he was just looking for racism in it and in his search, completely misapprehended the intention of the letter.

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 12:28pm:

There are hundreds of thousands of 'Karnals' in every university campus, political message board and office-park across the entire Western world.

True. I can never find a free spot to eat lunch in any park in the entire Western world after 11:30AM... I'm gonna buy a burger tomorrow and eat it in Ghana.
;D

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 12:28pm:

[quote]There are hundreds of thousands of 'Karnals' in every university campus, political message board and office-park across the entire Western world. An anomaly he is not. http://chattahbox.com/images/2009/06/burqa_afghanistan.jpg[/img]

Yes indeed. I think there's a Karnal in all of us. Fear not, old boy. Go to school, apply yourself, go to work - go on the dole - end up in the gutter on more than one occasion, live, laugh, die, and you too can cultivate the Karnal within.

the karnal inside me will hide sometimes to keep from being seen

Big Donger wrote on May 11^th, 2010 at 12:37pm:

aikmann4 wrote on May 10th, 2010 at 12:28pm: [quote]There are hundreds of thousands of 'Karnals' in every university campus, political message board and office-park across the entire Western world. An anomaly he is not. http://chattahbox.com/images/2009/06/burqa_afghanistan.jpg[/img] Yes indeed. I think there's a Karnal in all of us.

Oh... that's what the recurrent pain in the @rse is...



;D

Karnal is hilarious.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 12^th, 2010 at 7:35pm:

Karnal is hilarious.

Yeah, we all have a funny feeling reading his posts.

Here's but one example why the Italians are welcome around the world: their cultural influence is embraced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zmwRitYO3w


What does a Muslim flash mob look like?

---

That was a really nice video. Reminds me of the Free Hugs campaign.

Say yes to women singing out loud, say yes to opera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CvsFK0PZVI

Say no to silencing, effacing women.

It's quite sad that you are seemingly unable to watch something beautiful without trying to turn it into something ugly.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 10:16pm:

It's quite sad that you are seemingly unable to watch something beautiful without trying to turn it into something ugly.

Cheer up, don't be sad. I am affirming strong women who let out their beautiful voices and I deplore their oppression. You should not think of that as somemthing ugly. I hate ugly, primitive bastards who fear and degrade their women and would rather kill them than let them sing. You should hate them too.


Here's something you couldn't see in Iran (or Saudi or Pakistan, or Gaza or Yemen or Somalia or Lakemba, etc, etc). That's what should make you sad, if sad you want to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHh8isGtB6w

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 10:16pm:

It's quite sad that you are seemingly unable to watch something beautiful without trying to turn it into something ugly.

I just said: 'say no to silencing and effacing women' and you find that ugly?

What an interesting time we live in - sensitive Betty Page domintarix is for keeping Muslim women under their bearded pinheads' rule at every turn while oppressive white culturally insensitive conservative is baying for their dignity.
What next? Are you going to senitively endorse the muslim treatment of homos?

Do you ever just appreciate something for what it is without trying to use it as a weapon in your personal little war on Islam?

Look at the thread's title, you sensitive soul.
Context. D'oh!

The threads title is irrelevant to my point. You are aware that there are many Muslim female singers who aren't oppressed or silenced? But posting those wouldn't suit your agenda.

Mock me all you like for my 'sensitivity'. Considering the source of the ridicule, I couldn't care less.

You seriously misread Islam Annie, even the man who inspired a generation of peacenik hippies with songs of Love and Peace, who even sang us a little ditty called "Peace Train", could happily call for a writer to be killed for writing a book he didn't like, once he took up the mighty muslim faith.
Cat can prevaricate all he likes now, but I watched him say it, and he meant it, and he underwent that transformation from peacenik to intolerant bigot because he embraced Islam.

it's hard to give any credit to a woman who does not oppose islam/

a system whereby in practise a man can have 4 wives, can rape and beat them, women cannot drive, female schools are closed down, a rape victim is stoned.

any woman want that ??? you smacking deserve it you stupid bitch

Islam is not some quaint, harmless ethnic custom like Morris dancing:


'I am a traitor to America because my religion requires me to be one. 'We pledge to wage jihad for the rest of our lives until either we implant Islam all over the world or meet our Lord as bearers of Islam.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1319845/Samir-Khan-talks-pride-traitor-Al-Qaeda-magazine.html#ixzz12OGuCZlz

Islamic understatement of the year:

"Then later on, we thought seriously and we thought, ‘You know, somebody doesn't like us,'" he said.
http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/13313691/florence-mosque-defaced-with-bacon




You don't say!!!!


;D ;D ;D

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 10:53pm:

a weapon in your personal little war on Islam?

I love this sort of po-faced, pompous, overblown snarling.

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 12:35pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010 at 10:53pm: a weapon in your personal little war on Islam? I love this sort of po-faced, pompous, overblown snarling.

You've been holding onto that one for over four months, old boy.

I hope you're having lots of fibre and staying regular.

Just noticed it now.

Anyway, it must be odd for someone like you  who has both sh!t for brains and incontinence.

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 3:50pm:

Just noticed it now. Anyway, it must be odd for someone like you  who has both sh!t for brains and incontinence.

It's all about the stool, isn't it?

Big Donger wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 4:19pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15th, 2010 at 3:50pm: Just noticed it now. Anyway, it must be odd for someone like you  who has both sh!t for brains and incontinence. It's all about the stool, isn't it?

Why do you think that everything is always about you, turd-for-brains?

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 5:59pm:

Big Donger wrote on Oct 15th, 2010 at 4:19pm: Soren wrote on Oct 15th, 2010 at 3:50pm: Just noticed it now. Anyway, it must be odd for someone like you  who has both sh!t for brains and incontinence. It's all about the stool, isn't it? Why do you think that everything is always about you, turd-for-brains?

Certainly not, old boy, but you seem to be working considerably hard to make it that way.

Some Skinny Puppies wanna Assimilate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjINMLy3l1E

would you let these people assimilate?
;)

BALTIMORE -- Farooque Ahmed, the Pakistani-born Virginia man accused of plotting to bomb Washington-area subway stations, lived in middle-class suburban comfort with his wife and their infant son. They held steady jobs in northern Virginia's technology industry and mostly kept to themselves.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/suspect-in-plot-to-bomb-us-subway-was-quiet-suburban-muslim-106286318.html


Appearances are calculated to be deceptive.

Skilled immigrants. 8-)


Quote:

Labour laws designed to bring highly-qualified foreign workers such as brain surgeons into the UK were used by immigrants to get jobs as shop assistants and security guards, the Coalition claimed last night. Immigration Minister Damian Green unveiled research showing that nearly one in three immigrants in the Labour Government’s ‘tier one’ category for top-level applicants last year ended up doing ordinary unskilled jobs. Tier one immigrants are categorised as doctors, scientists and entrepreneurs so skilled they could enter the UK without a job offer, said Mr Green ‘These are meant to be absolutely the brightest and the best,’ he said in a BBC interview. But the anomalies had been revealed after a sample was analysed. ‘We have discovered that of the visas we issued last year 29 per cent are doing unskilled jobs,’ he said. ‘ They’re shop assistants, security guards, supermarket cashiers—all absolutely essential jobs we need for our economy. ‘But at a time when we have a couple of million unemployed people in this country and we have 300,000 unemployed graduates, it seems to me pretty perverse if we say we’ve got to keep bringing in unlimited people because we think they are very highly skilled.’ The full research, based on a sample of 1,184 tier one immigrants out of more than 18,000 given visas in 2009 is to be published this week by the UK Border Agency. It was the first detailed look at how Labour’s policies had operated, Mr Green added. However, the revelations come amid concerns that the Coalition’s interim cap on non-EU immmigration, introduced in July, is hurting British businesses and scientific research capability. Yesterday, Chris Mawtus, chief operating officer of oil service company Expro which employs 1,000 people in the UK, warned: ‘We may have to start thinking of relocating some of our operations overseas.’ Former Tory Minister Lord Ryder, chairman of the Institute of Cancer Research, warned a House of Lords debate last week that the cap jeopardised its work and ability to ‘bring in the right people at the right time’. Mr Green insisted yesterday that the Government was being flexible and responding to concerns over the cap. He told The Mail on Sunday: ‘It’s a new system and there will be difficulties along the way but serious cases can be resolved.’ The current cap level would be reviewed and set at a permanent level next April after consultations, Mr Green added. But he stressed that the country could not go on with Labour’s old ‘unlimited immigration policy’.

How do you say in Arabic: " Look mum, no head!"


(in Swedish, where this recent picture comes from, it is "Titta mamma, ingen chef")


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/12/12/article-1337930-0C748E59000005DC-486_634x922.jpg

Soren wrote on Dec 18^th, 2010 at 10:41pm:

How do you say in Arabic: " Look mum, no head!" (in Swedish, where this recent picture comes from, it is "Titta mamma, ingen chef")

نظرة أمي. دون رأس!  :P

Allan's at the bar! Allan's at the bar!

(English for the Arabic way of toasting with your brandy at Christmas: Allanhu at ak bar! Allanhu at ak bar! Allan was a mythical publican in ancient Araby and he stood everybody free drinks after successful military campaigns by the early Muslims, led by Muhammad the Tumescent)

Soren wrote on Dec 19^th, 2010 at 6:31pm:

Allan's at the bar! Allan's at the bar! (English for the Arabic way of toasting with your brandy at Christmas: Allanhu at ak bar! Allanhu at ak bar! Allan was a mythical publican in ancient Araby and he stood everybody free drinks after successful military campaigns by the early Muslims, led by Muhammad the Tumescent)

Maybe they'd drink Turkish wine:

http://www.mymerhaba.com/en/main/content.asp_Q_id_E_2546

or Indonesian beer:

http://www.indonesian-food.88eight.com/images/bintang.jpg

or even Egyptian beer:

http://images.travelpod.com/users/bumihills/1.1232182747.nice-cold-egyptian-beer.jpg


What do you reckon?

Soren wrote on Dec 19^th, 2010 at 6:31pm:

Allan's at the bar! Allan's at the bar! (English for the Arabic way of toasting with your brandy at Christmas: Allanhu at ak bar! Allanhu at ak bar! Allan was a mythical publican in ancient Araby and he stood everybody free drinks after successful military campaigns by the early Muslims, led by Muhammad the Tumescent)

Which is considerably different to the chant at Souths Juniors Leagues Club when Alan Jones is at the bar.

muso wrote on Dec 20^th, 2010 at 9:40am:

Soren wrote on Dec 19th, 2010 at 6:31pm: Allan's at the bar! Allan's at the bar! (English for the Arabic way of toasting with your brandy at Christmas: Allanhu at ak bar! Allanhu at ak bar! Allan was a mythical publican in ancient Araby and he stood everybody free drinks after successful military campaigns by the early Muslims, led by Muhammad the Tumescent) Maybe they'd drink Turkish wine: http://www.mymerhaba.com/en/main/content.asp_Q_id_E_2546 ... What do you reckon?

Quote:

ANKARA, MAY 13 - A new law to overhaul tobacco and alcoholic beverages usage drew fierce criticism from sector representatives, and is seen as another negative factor in Islamist-rooted AKP's record of conservative arrangements. Law No. 5752, which will take effect tomorrow, bans the sale of alcoholic beverages and cigarettes "by breaking its packaging or dividing them." Sector representatives say if implemented, it would mean that the sale of alcoholic beverages by the glass at establishments like restaurants and bars would not be allowed....

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/05/turkey-new-law-restricting-sale-of-alcohol-comes-into-effect.html

tallowood wrote on Dec 20^th, 2010 at 3:05pm:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/05/turkey-new-law-restricting-sale-of-alcohol-comes-into-effect.html

Good luck to them. I'd like to see them try to enforce it in places like Izmir or Dikili  ;D

Yeah, thought so. The Turks are known for their rubbery laws:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/turkey/8929349.asp?gid=231&sz=76516


Quote:

Kazim Caliskan, chairman of the Tobacco and Alcohol Market Regulation Board (TAPDK), ruled out such interpretation of the law saying it banned the sale of alcohol served by the glass only "in the small markets that do not have a license." "Establishments such as restaurants and bars will to continue to be able to sell alcoholic beverages by the glass, but they should get an "authorization certificate from TAPDK," he added. "This arrangement is only about those who don't have the authorization to sell alcoholic beverages... This limits only those small markets who serve alcoholic beverages despite the ban," he told the state-run Anatolian Agency.

Turkish and Greek bureaucrats have one major thing in common - their ineptitude.

muso wrote on Dec 20^th, 2010 at 4:03pm:

tallowood wrote on Dec 20th, 2010 at 3:05pm: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/05/turkey-new-law-restricting-sale-of-alcohol-comes-into-effect.html Good luck to them. I'd like to see them try to enforce it in places like Izmir or Dikili  ;D Yeah, thought so. The Turks are known for their rubbery laws: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/turkey/8929349.asp?gid=231&sz=76516 Quote: Kazim Caliskan, chairman of the Tobacco and Alcohol Market Regulation Board (TAPDK), ruled out such interpretation of the law saying it banned the sale of alcohol served by the glass only "in the small markets that do not have a license." "Establishments such as restaurants and bars will to continue to be able to sell alcoholic beverages by the glass, but they should get an "authorization certificate from TAPDK," he added. "This arrangement is only about those who don't have the authorization to sell alcoholic beverages... This limits only those small markets who serve alcoholic beverages despite the ban," he told the state-run Anatolian Agency. Turkish and Greek bureaucrats have one major thing in common - their ineptitude.

It is like with climate change, the trend is important and turkish trend of late is away from secular state towards islamisation.

tallowood wrote on Dec 20^th, 2010 at 7:10pm:

It is like with climate change, the trend is important and turkish trend of late is away from secular state towards islamisation.

Their problem is that they have too liberal a democracy. Now if it was like Syria....

Arabic second-most common Australian tongue

AFP/File – Arabic is the most commonly spoken language after English by young people in Australia, a study has revealed, … .– Fri Apr 15, 12:09 pm ET
SYDNEY (AFP) – Arabic is the most commonly spoken language after English by young people in Australia, a study has revealed, with about one in eight multilingual children using it in the home.

The Australia Early Development Index, a government-backed study of more than 260,000 children in their first year of school, found that 18 percent spoke a language other than English.

Despite no Arabic nation making the top 15 countries of birth for Australia's children, some 5,565 spoke the language at home, 11.8 percent of all multilingual children

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110415/lf_afp/australiaeducationlanguagemideast

It's time for Dick Smith and The Greens to target Arab immigrants and tell them to slow down with the breeding.

Soren wrote on Apr 17^th, 2011 at 1:22pm:

Arabic second-most common Australian tongue AFP/File – Arabic is the most commonly spoken language after English by young people in Australia, a study has revealed, … .– Fri Apr 15, 12:09 pm ET SYDNEY (AFP) – Arabic is the most commonly spoken language after English by young people in Australia, a study has revealed, with about one in eight multilingual children using it in the home. The Australia Early Development Index, a government-backed study of more than 260,000 children in their first year of school, found that 18 percent spoke a language other than English. Despite no Arabic nation making the top 15 countries of birth for Australia's children, some 5,565 spoke the language at home, 11.8 percent of all multilingual children http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110415/lf_afp/australiaeducationlanguagemideast It's time for Dick Smith and The Greens to target Arab immigrants and tell them to slow down with the breeding.

Yer, Soren, someone should tell 'em that it's un-Australian to breed like rabbits Israelis...

::)




perceptions_now wrote on Apr 14^th, 2011 at 9:59pm:

OECD Fetility Rates 2009 & Variation 1984-2009 http://medya.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2011/04/14/fertility-rate.jpg A few observations - 1) Much of the OECD is already below the replacement level Fertility rate, which is 2.1 children per woman. 2) There have been some substantial moves toward lower Fertility rates since 1984 and quite a few have had greater reductions, than that of the well publicised China, via their one child policy.

http://medya.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2011/04/14/fertility-rate.jpg

Hey Soren, something needs to be done about our education system too...

How dare our schools primarily teach mathematics in Arabic numerals to Australian children, eh?

Equitist wrote on Apr 17^th, 2011 at 1:47pm:

Hey Soren, something needs to be done about our education system too... How dare our schools primarily teach mathematics in Arabic numerals to Australian children, eh?

They dont.

Joel Achenbach, "Take a Number, Please", The Washington Post, September 16, 1994

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-909875.html


Quote:

Why do we use Arabic numerals instead of Roman numerals? Many of you probably didn't realize you use Arabic numerals. Some of you may think this explains why you have so much trouble with math - the numbers are in a different language! How can you divide 73 by 13 when the numbers aren't even English? Actually, we don't use Arabic numerals. We use Hindu numerals. Western nations call them Arabic because Europe got the numerals from the Islamic world, which got them from the Hindus. (People used to pay less attention to the subtleties of multiculturalism.) The switch from Roman to Arabic numerals took place in the Middle Ages, propelled by a book in the 13th …

Equitist wrote on Apr 17^th, 2011 at 1:29pm:

Yer, Soren, someone should tell 'em that it's un-Australian to breed like rabbits Israelis... ::)

Population of Israel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Population_of_Israel.png/636px-Population_of_Israel.png

muso wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 12:11pm:

Equitist wrote on Apr 17th, 2011 at 1:29pm: Yer, Soren, someone should tell 'em that it's un-Australian to breed like rabbits Israelis... ::) Population of Israel http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Population_of_Israel.png/636px-Population_of_Israel.png

Nice graph muso.

But,  ....don't i recall someone on OzPol made a claim that most 'Pal's' [i.e. the moslem contingent], are ethnic Jews ???



p.s.
It still won't help the 'Pal's' secure the 'holy land' though.

The land is within the gift of God.

And he has said, that the 'Pal's' cannot have it.      ;)     ;)     ;)