Okay, we all know about the Hey Hey It's Saturday Reunion Red Faces debacle where a bunch of highly educated Australian doctors who should know better did a racist performance that Harry Connick Jr (rightfully) found offensive:

link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmaF7Pys7OI

Here are the problems with this skit:
1) Not one cast member felt it was offensive
2) All the performers were highly educated
3) The audience booed when the gong went off because they didn't find anything offensive either

Now no doubt I am going to post this, and some of you are going to stand up and say that I am too PC and so was Harry Connick Jr, and that's precisely the problem.  Australians are so out of touch with what is widely considered as racist to the rest of the world.  Some of you won't get it, you won't understand why the world thinks Australian's are racist because you're so out of touch, both with global standards of behaviour and with what the world thinks of Australian racism.

I post this not to shame white Australians, because I am Australian of Asian descent and there are many very good white Australians, but to highlight the fact that Australia has a lot to catch up to when it comes to acceptance (not *tolerance*) and racial sensitivity.

Here is my opinion on what Australians (of all races) need to do:
1) Recognize there is an endemic problem, and discussion and debate must occur
2) Believe that Australia is not a European or white country, it is a country of migrants where all migrants and Aboriginals are "Australians", not just white people (I have NEVER been called "Australian" by a white Australian.  I've always been either called "Asian" or "Asian Australian")
3) Believe that Australian culture is not, as widely believed, a mono-culture that other migrants must assimilate to.  It has, like other migrant countries, no historical culture (unlike say Britain which is thousands of years old), and whose culture was developed by migrants of all different backgrounds.  It is a heterogeneous society, not a homogeneous society.
4) Have zero tolerance for anything that discriminates or focuses on race or colour.  That includes jokes, deroragatory names like "wog" or "chink" or "pom", or the "Jackson Jive".  Racist politicians should be forced to quit like they are in other countries.
5) Have a deep and profound respect for indigeneous Aboriginals who are the only "true" Australians.  The rest of us are migrants, pure and simple.
6) Have deliberate attempts to make non-white Australians front and centre in popular media

I have now become a proud Canadian because Canada accepted me, and I had a very horrible childhood growing up in racist Australia.  I have seen and felt the difference in attitudes between Australians and Canadians and that's why I know there is a problem in Australia.  Had I not come to Canada, I too would have been oblivious to the endemic problem in Australia like some of you no doubt are.

Unfortunately (and I have written on these boards before about these, to negative reception), I feel Australian racism has either not changed or has gotten worse.  Since leaving Australia some 12 years ago, there have been racial riots, fire bombing of Chinese restaurants, Pauline Hanson got voted in and still no real representation of non-white Australians in popular media.

On my last point (representation of non-white Australians in popular media), a great deal of people on this board disagreed with me.  I said at the time I see virtually zero representation on the occasions that I go back to Australia, on billboards or TV.  Some replied and said I must have been blind.  I think not.  I was purposely and specifically looking for representation so I was analyzing the situation very thoroughly.

What I know as fact however, is that even though there may be *some* representation of non-white Australians, the representation is merely relegated to background roles or extras, not primary roles.  Here in N.America, Asians are often the main character of an advertisement or one of the main characters of a TV show, or the sole face you see on a billboard or train poster.

Deliberate attempts to make non-White Australians front and centre in popular media is important for eliminating racism because:
1) It recognizes the fact that the non-White segment of the population are valued
2) It states explicitly that the colour of your skin does not determine whether you are Australian or not
3) It brings broad acceptance of other races to the majority because it says "white Australians can be attracted to this product even if it is being pushed by a non-white Australian because the colour doesn't matter"

The more this is discussed in the open the better.  It took America 200 years of discussion and debate before a black man became President.

Now I realize there are more racist countries in the world than Australia, but to use that argument is pathetic.  To be a great country, you compare yourself with the best countries in the world.

Is there room in the world to make fun of yourself?  Sure there is.  But the key is "making fun of YOURSELF".  One of the world's top comedians on racial matters is a chap called "Russel Peters" and he is Canadian.  I won't state his racial background because it is irrelevant and you can look it up yourself anyway.  Making fun of someone else's race however is wrong - there's nothing funny about a joke made out of ignorance or xenophobia.

fakir wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 6:28am:

Is there room in the world to make fun of yourself?  Sure there is.  But the key is "making fun of YOURSELF"... Making fun of someone else's race however is wrong - there's nothing funny.

Here's ethnic Australia at play. An accurate sociological study:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICUVfK1EtsM

fakir wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 6:28am:

Is there room in the world to make fun of yourself?  Sure there is.  But the key is "making fun of YOURSELF".  One of the world's top comedians on racial matters is a chap called "Russel Peters" and he is Canadian.  I won't state his racial background because it is irrelevant and you can look it up yourself anyway.  Making fun of someone else's race however is wrong - there's nothing funny about a joke made out of ignorance or xenophobia.

Russel Peters, I believe, is an Anglo-Indian, which to Anglo-Indians, by the way, is not a derrogatory term. He is very funny, and he's funny because he takes the piss out of race... his and everyone else's including Asians. I do see your point, fakir, but I feel you're over-emotional on ethnicity. You sound damaged by it... There's an undercurrent to your post that sounds to me like you're thankful to Canada for having taken in a leper. Are you sure you're not ashamed of being Asian?

fakir,

As most here will know I am the biggest critic of the often racist views and attitudes of some Australians, but I think in this case Harry Connick Jnr. and yourself have gone a little overboard. I guess because Australia doesn't have such a delicate racial balance between large black and white populations (as the U.S for instance does) we're not as sensitive to such things, and neither do we need to be.

I could find nothing racially discriminatory in that skit whatsoever. Just actually dressing as blacks isn't in itself racist, and that's what you seem to be suggesting is the racist element to the skit??

Whilst I'm sure you probably have some valid grievances against Australians, this is simply not racist. And I say this, having been subjected to racial abuse (even though I myself am Anglo).

Em.. you just validated my point.  My point was Australians don't think that was racist and that's why Australians are out of touch with the rest of the world.  Australia will continue to be racist until this point is understood.  The skit and your indifference to it proves my point.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 7:51am:

You sound damaged by it... There's an undercurrent to your post that sounds to me like you're thankful to Canada for having taken in a leper. Are you sure you're not ashamed of being Asian?

That's unusual language don't you think? "leper?"  Given the nature of the topic, comparing race to a serious disease is hardly appropriate.

As for being "ashamed", I have never felt proud of being Asian in Australia.  I am only now for the first time in my life being comfortable for who I am because there is no pressure on me to be anything else in Canada.  I have no labels - I can be whoever I choose to be.

Quote:

Em.. you just validated my point.  My point was Australians don't think that was racist and that's why Australians are out of touch with the rest of the world.

I didn't validate anything because you haven't demonstrated why the skit was racist. Can you elaborate on what is racist about the skit?

I wouldn't consider myself that out of touch with the world, unless you consider U.S/Canada to be the rest of the world. In fact many here consider me a "traitor" because of my "cross cultural" sympathies.


Quote:

That's unusual language don't you think? "leper?"

I think 'leper' was meant to be an analogy for a societal outcast, who finally found acceptance, rather that relating disease to race. Your hyper-sensitivity towards the issue of race seems a little overdone. Admittedly I don't know what your experiences have been, but try not to let tham make you lose sight of the reality here.

fakir wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 9:09am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 8th, 2009 at 7:51am: You sound damaged by it... There's an undercurrent to your post that sounds to me like you're thankful to Canada for having taken in a leper. Are you sure you're not ashamed of being Asian? That's unusual language don't you think? "leper?"  Given the nature of the topic, comparing race to a serious disease is hardly appropriate. As for being "ashamed", I have never felt proud of being Asian in Australia.  I am only now for the first time in my life being comfortable for who I am because there is no pressure on me to be anything else in Canada.  I have no labels - I can be whoever I choose to be.

Fakir... please... The word is used as a metaphor. The metaphoric phrase is indicated by the word 'like'.

You talk of race the way one would expect a sufferer of an affliction (for which the afflicted are commonly ostracised) would descibe his embitterment at the society that rejected him for it and gratitude for the one within which it's overlooked. What I am saying is, that from the tone of your post, it appears you equate race with something like an incurable disease requiring compassionate societal acceptance.

It sounds melodramatic.

racism is reality.
grow up and call a spade a spade.

the abbos would still be nomadic cave dwelling wanderers.

be proud of our advancements.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 9:24am:

I didn't validate anything because you haven't demonstrated why the skit was racist. Can you elaborate on what is racist about the skit? I wouldn't consider myself that out of touch with the world, unless you consider U.S/Canada to be the rest of the world. In fact many here consider me a "traitor" because of my "cross cultural" sympathies.

Do you remember a show a few decades ago called "The Black and White Minstrels"?  Do you know of a toothpaste brand that used to be called "Darkie" with a pic of one of those "black minstrels?"  Do you know what a "golliwog" is?  So what happened to that show?  What happened to that toothpaste?  Changes happened all over the world decades ago, and in 2009 for crying out loud, Australians are asking "why is that offensive?"  I mean honestly, your ignorance of racially offensive material is astounding.

There are nearly half a billion N.Americans, and there are 20 million Australians.  So I'm going to go with the majority here on what is considered offensive.

http://danielfranklingomez.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/darlie.jpg

i'm going with what country is better.
Aussie by a LONG way.

fakir - you are using a fallacy.


if people can't hack being informed they are "non-whites", that's their issue.

Quote:

Do you remember a show a few decades ago called "The Black and White Minstrels"?  Do you know of a toothpaste brand that used to be called "Darkie" with a pic of one of those "black minstrels?"  Do you know what a "golliwog" is?

You're confusing two issues here fakir. I am the first to admit Australia is a racist place. The White Australia Policy, the treatment of Aboriginals, the treatment of Muslims etc.

But this skit just simply doesn't have any racist aspect to it at all, other than the fact some white guys are impersonating black guys... which I'm really struggling to understand how that is racist. If they mocked something about their race, then I could understand your position, but they are not.


Quote:

Changes happened all over the world decades ago, and in 2009 for crying out loud, Australians are asking "why is that offensive?"  I mean honestly, your ignorance of racially offensive material is astounding.

Changes happened in the U.S most likely because of their extremely racist past, during which they used to actually murder and enslave blacks. The fact they have a guilty conscience for their despicable crimes is no reason for Australia to be overly politically correct about impersonating a black guy. I fully understand why it's necessary in the U.S after their history with the black minority, but to suggest that must transfer to all other societies is just ridiculous.


Quote:

There are nearly half a billion N.Americans, and there are 20 million Australians.  So I'm going to go with the majority here on what is considered offensive.

Half a billion is not the rest of the world. That's a very American-centric view of the world. There's thousands of other cultures around the world, and most of them wouldn't find a white guy impersonating a black guy offensive in my experience.

Quote:

racism is reality. grow up and call a spade a spade.

It's a reality for you sprint cos you're a racist. For the rest of the decent humans on the earth, we'd like to take your spade and bury your racism with it.

Racism is a blight on humanity, and I truly wish that one day people like yourself get a good taste of it, so you can learn your lesson.


Quote:

the abbos would still be nomadic cave dwelling wanderers.

And they're just so much better off for the invasion of the whites. Now most are park dwelling chronic alcoholics... yes such advancement, you must be very proud of that one.

yes abu, i'm a racist AND a sexist.
anyone with an iota of honesty is also.

the races and sexes are different - ever noticed that ?


many abbos chose the bottle, not all did though, some are great aussies.
it was their choice, fool us giving them money to do it.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 10:51am:

yes abu, i'm a racist AND a sexist. anyone with an iota of honesty is also.

Are you damaged in your own turn by once being the victim of Maori racism against white Kiwis?

Were you "Once despised, now a despiser"?

The recognition of racial differences is universal, no doubt and is pre-rational... Contempt for the other because of race is not.

Does everybody realise the bloke playing the part of Michael Jackson is an Indian? He had his face painted white, bloody wacist.

skippy - i heard there were 2 or 3 indians and one leb in the skit.

helian - the skit was termed racist cause people pretended to be blacks.
tyoical apoogetics

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 11:42am:

helian - the skit was termed racist cause people pretended to be blacks. tyoical apoogetics

Yes, completely ridiculous. Comedy should be judged by the tone it intends.

Fakir, Mike Myers (a Canadian I believe) starred in a comedy as an Indian holy man... The Love Guru. Should be be condemned for his 'racial stereotyping' of Indians? Or is it OK by you only when Canadians take the piss out of race?

Looks that now you can only relatively safely take a piss out of your own race, otherwise you are racist for sure.

okay, one at a time:

1) abu_rashid: Australia is out of touch.  Black people find it offensive, and I don't need to understand why, I only need to understand that they do (find it offensive).  This news has gone global and non-Australians agree that the skit was offensive.  The fact that you're still scratching your head wondering "why?" is proof of Australia being out of touch with the world because you don't get it.  

You don't need to understand why something is offensive to stop doing something offensive, otherwise men would still be calling their girlfriends fat.

However off the top of my head, because you are forcing me to do your thinking for you, I would say it's based on history.  Perhaps a long time ago, white people made fun of black people and lampooned them, frequently accompanying their xenophobic jokes with shoe polish on their faces, ala "The Black and White Minstrel Show". (didn't I already give you that hint?  Geez.)

2) sprintcycle - again your argument about Mike Myers echos another sentiment made by a blogger calling Harry Connick Jr a hyprocrite because he impersonated a southern preacher on MadTV.  You white Australians don't get it.  Harry Connick Jr didn't paint his face black in the skit, and Mike Myers didn't paint his skin either.  For that matter, Mike Myers didn't even pretend to be Indian, he just pretended to be a Guru.  When Myer's movie came out, Hindus were offended, not Indians.

3) Happy - you're damn right.  I'm glad you're finally figuring out what the rest of the world outside Australia already knew over a decade ago.  But don't feel bad, you're in good company along with Mel Gibson and Michael Richards.

--
And the fact that three of the doctors were Indians doesn't make this any better.  There were 6 people in that skit, 3 of them were white.  But the problem is all of them were Australian, and none of the Hey Hey staff nor the audience found the act offensive - every Australian in that studio that day shrugged their shoulders like abu_rashid and didn't see anything offensive.  If that isn't a sign of Australia being out of touch with the world, I don't know what else is a bigger slap in the face.  In all cases that still makes the problem of racism in Australia endemic.

wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

Does everybody realise the bloke playing the part of Michael Jackson is an Indian? He had his face painted white, bloody wacist.

skippy - you cannot make apples to oranges comparisons.  Europeans have not had a history of slavery or colonization and being humiliated and lampooned the way white people have done to other races.  If a Chinese pushes the sides of his eyes inward to imitate you, would you be offended?  Probably not, but a Chinese is offended if you pull the sides of your eyes outward.  Why?  Because that is what white people did to bully Chinese back in the early days of the Australian gold rushes and when the British held Hong Kong.

Making these stupid comparisons and belittling other races' feelings is precisely the attitude that makes white Australians racist.

One time on a forum I was being bullied by the moderator, and I asked him to stop treating me like a Gestapo.  He later told me he was deeply offended by my remark because he was Jewish and had family who were killed by the Nazis.  Now did I belittle him for being offended by a remark that does not affect me in any way?  Of course not, I'm not a jackass.  I apologized to him immediately.

But again, the fact that you and apparently 70% of Australians polled can't figure this out by yourselves, shows that racism is endemic in Australia and Australians in general are out of touch.

fakir - what a skirt.

fakir wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 2:09pm:

2) sprintcycle - again your argument about Mike Myers echos another sentiment made by a blogger calling Harry Connick Jr a hyprocrite because he impersonated a southern preacher on MadTV.  You white Australians don't get it.  Harry Connick Jr didn't paint his face black in the skit, and Mike Myers didn't paint his skin either.  For that matter, Mike Myers didn't even pretend to be Indian, he just pretended to be a Guru.  When Myer's movie came out, Hindus were offended, not Indians.

What a load of cobblers... I don't think you get it, fakir... As if your point should rest only on the fact they painted their face. Mike Myers was doing comedy and it was taken in the spirit it was intended and no one was under any illusion that his character was anything other than Indian.

Harry Connick Wanker was grandstanding... Any opportunity for a Yank to pretend America is living in a post-racist utopia.

By the way, Australians are often portrayed in American and British flim as cultureless idiots, pissheads and classless swill... An unfair stereotype, but Aussies take it in their stride when its intended to be lighthearted.

Maybe your problem is that in your rush to de-Asianise yourself you've adopted the American incapacity for irony.

You have the right to be offended. Others have the right to offend you. And vica versa.

Being offended is not an argument. Respect is earned. You can't just demand it on the basis of your pigmentation. And of course your colour is neither here nor there. It's the culture that comes with it that matters.

Do you remember the racial teasing of the west indian guy, Symonds, in the Australian cricket team when they were playing in India? The monkey calls? How funny is that? Tinted people racially taunting a tinted guy. Is that also an example of Indian colonial legacy, like the rail system?

Or more seriously, what are you doing about the Indian caste system? Or look up the Japanese treatment of the Chinese and the Koreans -  and whitey - during WWII. Or the history of Muslim enslavement of Europeans. Or the endless massacres of Africans by other Africans. Or the black on white violence in Zimbabwe and South Africa. Or the slave-like treatment of Asians in rich middle eastern countries. Or the black on black, black on hispanic violence in North America, for that matter. What are you doing about those examples of real, hardcore racial oppression and menace? Nothing.

Worrying about a TV skit on Hey hey it's Saturday is sooky in itelf but worrying about it whiel ignoring real mistreatment of tinted people by other tinted people is downright cowardly and pathtic.
UNHRC writ small.

Fakir, why are only white people racist, I guess the rest of the world is such a perfect Utopia of love and peace, get a grip. Call it whatever you like, some people just dont like other people, live with it.

Quote:

By the way, Australians are often portrayed in American and British flim as cultureless idiots, pissheads and classless swill... An unfair stereotype, but Aussies take it in their stride when its intended to be lighthearted.

Come on, it's not all that unfair... We're not offended because we know it's true!

What a massive whinge about nothing.

So what if there are not enough Asians on billboards, who cares.

And China is in no position to lecture Australia on racism. It has the most entrenched racist policies that support the supremacy of the Han in all things. It is common for Asian people to be openly contemptuous of black people as well. Ask a Japanese what he or she thinks of black africans, or chinese.

If you don't like Australia then bugger off.

Oh that's right, you already have. No doubt you will invoke your Australian passport overseas if there is any war or disaster you get caught in, while bagging the place out on the internetz.

I am posting the following on behalf of another member.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk114/Mantra_2008/whitechicks.jpg

"They made a whole movie involving black guys with their faces painted white, and nobody got offended.

It's black people's perception of THEMSELVES that's the problem, not white people's. We have every right to paint our faces whatever goddamn way we want. Black people just need to get over themselves"

Quote:

Oh that's right, you already have. No doubt you will invoke your Australian passport overseas if there is any war or disaster you get caught in, while bagging the place out on the internetz.

If he has a Canadian passport, I'd think he'd be flashing that around before the Australian one. Australian passports aren't quite as good as you might like to think.

Quote:

"They made a whole movie involving black guys with their faces painted white, and nobody got offended.

Another point raised there, perhaps unintentionally mantra is the fact that men dressing up as women is not perceived as sexist, so why is white people dressed up as black people considered racist??

Abu - I haven't got involved in this thread. I posted those comments and the pics as a favour to someone else.

Personally I didn't like the movie - I found it offensive in more ways than one.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 4:03pm:

Quote: By the way, Australians are often portrayed in American and British flim as cultureless idiots, pissheads and classless swill... An unfair stereotype, but Aussies take it in their stride when its intended to be lighthearted. Come on, it's not all that unfair... We're not offended because we know it's true!

We're not offended because we love a good laugh... Anything for a laugh, even on ourselves.

Harry Connick is insincere. The Jackon Jive have hit a raw nerve. Connick said: "We have spent so much time trying to not make black people look like bufoons."

This implies a question to all the black and other tinted people - YOU don't need to spend so much time trying not to make, say, Swedes look like bufoons.

Stereotypes may be unfair to particular individuals but as for the group, they are accurate portrayals - otherwise they would not have become stereotypes. Comedy depends on this.

Jiving, swaggering, cool dude blacks dripping with bling ARE bufoons. Tintedness is no immunity from ridicule.

Just because not all blacks are like that does not mean you can't ridicule them as a group. The jiving, swaggering black cohort ARE bufoons. If you are not one of them then it's not about you. Then we are not laughing AT you, we are laughing WITH you.

Fackir, tell us something funny.

Okay, I am addressing several replies in one post here.

1) it is intensely frustrating for people to keep using the same arguments after I've already addressed them.  I already addressed the issue of apples vs oranges comparisons and that black people painting their skin white is not the same as vice versa for historical reasons.  I gave very compelling arguments that any person with common-sense doesn't argue against:

example:
when a girl calls you fat, you're not as offended as vice versa

But if you cannot comprehend why one standard for one group of people doesn't necessarily apply to a different group of people, then it's no wonder all you people who are replying don't get it.  Whatever the case is, it is both arrogant and ignorant to expect that whatever standard of social behaviour is acceptable to yourself is somehow acceptable when applied to another person.  This is old colonial thinking that the British discarded some 50-60 years ago, and I have to wonder why Australians don't yet have a self-awareness to understand global norms for socially acceptable behaviour.

2) someone replied asking me to look at third world countries, or socially oppressive countries like China.  Well way to go mate!  I already addressed this in a previous reply but I guess people don't bother to read replies properly on this forum.  I'll repeat my answer (but I suspect I will have to do this over and over again):

Ans: Of course there are countries that are worse than Australia!  But do you really want to benchmark against these countries?  Is Australian racism so bad that you need to proudly pat yourself on the back and say "at least we're not as bad as Zimbabwe?".  Well done mate for setting your standards so low!

3) We all know the doctors did not intend to offend.  Let's stop focusing on this (as others on the WWW are doing).  The doctors' intent is NOT the issue.  It is the ignorance of 70% of Australians (who were polled), and apparently everyone in the studio at the time that what was done was offensive, that is the issue.  Furthermore, after discovering it was offensive, the worst crime is the apathy and insensitivity of Australians in saying "what's the problem?  I don't find it offensive!"

And that is the biggest issue that I brought up in my OP: we all know that Australians are generally irreverent, and that's okay if you make fun of yourself.  But the problem is that irreverence is so culturally ingrained (and if you study social history you will know this cultural element did descend from the convicts and their disdain for authority) that Australians generally cannot differentiate appropriate and inappropriate humour/behaviour any more.

This extends to derogatory name-calling made against minorities that Australians think is "okay".  Look at the replies on this thread!  Generally people are saying over and over again "gee.. I don't know what the big deal is".  I have been saying, and this has been the only thing I have ever been saying on this board, that racism in Australia will never be resolved until white Australians (ie. the majority) understand how to be more sensitive, and to practice selective irreverence.  Australians ARE a good people, they are just out of touch and have a subtle but general racism that will never be eliminated until it is acknowledged and Australians develop a ZERO tolerance for it.

Heck, one person even replied "if you don't like it, get out of here!".  Well done again!  Australia is perfect so stick your head back in the sand!

The amazing thing is that I don't even have to break a sweat proving that Australians are racist.  The lot of you replying to this thread are proving it yourself by showing your indifference to what happened and an unwillingness to acknowledge the feelings of other people that you don't understand or care to understand.

And here is a response from a beloved Aussie icon on the whole issue:
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,26185534-10229,00.html

What bitter irony that the cartoonist would showcase such racism after all that has happened, as if to punctuate a reputation beyond what is already globally known: that Australians are racist.

But I suppose the replies to this thread are going to continue to showcase the stubbornness of white Australians to acknowledge that their general apathy and indifference toward racism is a problem.  I wonder to myself: what does it take to change your attitude?

In addition to Australian irrereverence you have forgotten to add Australians' supicion of emotional and political correctness.

Re: third world countries - they are not the standard but you would gain incredible kudos if you worried (or actually did something) about really terrible and grim injsutices, rather than kvetching and getting  all emotional over a JOKE. What are YOU doing about people actually killed for being the wrong race? Your complete and utter lack of a sense of proportion is the main reason why you are taken a lot less seriously than you would like to be.

Now there is something for you to grow: a sense of proportion. Many, many tinted people need to get their inferiority complexes sorted. Otherwise they will never get rid of the chip on their shoulders. Hammering whitey over colonialism goes only so far in adressing inferiority, sloth, bufoonery and so forth.
Respect is earned. If it is given as a result of emotional and political blackmail, it is not real respect. ANd while tinted people continue to do unspeakable things to each other, they have little moral ground to demand respect from anybody.

What has been the main cultural contribution of balck Americans since the 1960s? Gangster rap - bufoonery of a sinister kind, in other words.

Soren wrote on Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:43am:

In Re: third world countries - they are not the standard but you would gain incredible kudos if you worried (or actually did something) about really terrible and grim injsutices, rather than kvetching and getting  all emotional over a JOKE. What are YOU doing about people actually killed for being the wrong race? Your complete and utter lack of a sense of proportion is the main reason why you are taken a lot less seriously than you would like to be. Now there is something for you to grow: a sense of proportion. Many, many tinted people need to get their inferiority complexes sorted. Otherwise they will never get rid of the chip on their shoulders. Hammering whitey over colonialism goes only so far in adressing inferiority, sloth, bufoonery and so forth. Respect is earned. If it is given as a result of emotional and political blackmail, it is not real respect. ANd while tinted people continue to do unspeakable things to each other, they have little moral ground to demand respect from anybody.

soren, you fail to understand the purpose of the EXAMPLE I brought up.  The example is the Hey Hey skit.  What is the exact point I am trying to raise?  My point is that racism is endemic in Australia, especially amongst white Australians who inherently believe they are the only true Australians which is why they have the habit of telling visible minorities to "go back to where you came from", even though the "tinted" Australian may be a 5th generation Australian (true story).

I have brought up this topic of racism on these boards before and have generally been met with the same hostility and indifference as been demonstrated on this thread.  I am now dating the threads I start to indicate that even through the years, nothing may change with Austraryan attitudes.

However this time it's different.  This time the racist event has gone global, and therefore we have a world-wide perspective on the issue.  This time Australians can see how different their narrow viewpoints are compared with the rest of the world.  I've said before that you cannot see your own racism because you're still living amongst it.  Now that the world is telling you that you're racist, if you cannot see it even now, when can you EVER see it?  You won't listen to an "Australian" (me), oh sorry I mean "Asian with an Australian passport" (I don't want to offend the true white Australians here, or cause their heads to explode in confusion), you won't listen to the rest of the world.  It's no wonder Australian attitudes haven't changed my entire life.

As for me championing race relations in third world countries - gimme a break.  What do you think I am?  A martyr?  Learn from history - change has never happened from without.  Changes happen from within.  How can an Australian of Asian Descent have any credibility with some third world country he has no connection with, as far as social commentary is concerned?  Why don't you look up history and see the success rate of that.  It doesn't work because 1) I have no motivation or stake and therefore don't have legs/endurance 2) the people themselves would not be receptive to my bandstanding (heck I am having zero success even in my own home country! (I mean Australia folks, not somewhere in Asia))

But the real reason you are suggesting for me to go somewhere else to "preach" is because you think you're alright.  You think that there are worse off places and "it was just a small joke".  Yes, I'm sure you think Mel Gibson's drunken remarks were a small joke too, but perhaps that "small joke" is a BIG SIGN of an endemic problem.

pope urban 2 wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 3:33pm:

Fakir, why are only white people racist, I guess the rest of the world is such a perfect Utopia of love and peace, get a grip. Call it whatever you like, some people just dont like other people, live with it.

In Canada, racism is only at the individual level, it's not culturally endemic like it is in Australia.  You will always have asshats that will be racist in every country.

In other words, I cannot say with any credibility that "white Canadians" are racist, because in Canada the proportion of racism amongst white people is at most equal with racism amongst visible minorities.  This is my experience.

In Australia however, the perpetrators are white.  White Australians feel entitled to the country, and visible minorities are seen as foreigners plain and simple.  That was my experience.  (by the way, I keep using the term "white Australian" but I bet you almost never hear that term in Australia right?  At least I have never heard it.  That's because an "Australian" IS white right?  Think about that)

I visited Australia in 2006, and my very successful single Australian friend (of Asian descent) was showing off his lifestyle and his friends, who were predominantly white.  I couldn't help but notice just how many times his friends referred to him as "Asian".  It was a smack in the face after living in Canada for 4 years and never hearing those kind of blatantly racist references.  Of course, my friend just played along and made a lame joke that he was actually "French".  He probably wouldn't admit to anything "wrong" with it, because he has to live with it.  But he definitely felt uncomfortable about being marginalized enough to deflect the racism to a more neutral area.

Here's the question: were those white friends bad people?  Were they trying to be mean to my friend?  No, they didn't seem to be mean-spirited.  It seemed to me that racism was so endemic in Australia that nobody could even recognize it any more.  That's why most of you are having trouble understanding what the big deal is.

So you guys are seeing this Hey Hey skit and shrugging your shoulders and wondering what the fuss is all about.  THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!

Let me repeat it a few more times in red, hopefully so it can get through to your comprehension:
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!
THE POINT IS NOT THE SKIT!!!

I watched the skit, and I would have reacted the same way as Harry Connick Jr, who was somewhat conciliatory toward the end of the show.  He knew the doctors didn't mean to offend.

What the problem is, and I said this from the beginning, and I will repeat a few times in red because some of you obviously never understood the first time I said it is:
NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

NOBODY THOUGHT IT WAS OFFENSIVE, AND AFTER FINDING OUT IT WAS OFFENSIVE AUSTRALIANS WERE INDIFFERENT

And I would appreciate it if you white Australians would stop telling minorities like me to "get a grip", or "who cares about Asians not being on billboards".  Well duh - that's my point - you white Austraryans don't care about minorities!  And even if I explain how much racism I have experienced in Australia, you still don't care because you feel entitled to be the sole and true Australians and don't care how minorities feel.  Why?  Because deep down, we are not Australian to you.

When I first posted here, I had to provide proof of what I was saying.  Now I don't have to, because most of you are showing your racism through your own words.

And here is a perfect example:


Calanen wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 7:29pm:

What a massive whinge about nothing. So what if there are not enough Asians on billboards, who cares. ... If you don't like Australia then bugger off.

The very least you can do is admit you're racist to the rest of the world, and be done with it.  You cannot both act racist, and pretend you're not.  If you admit you're racist, and you're proud to be, then at least I know there is no hope for you, and I will stop believing that white Australians are good people.

Soren wrote on Oct 9^th, 2009 at 7:43am:

In addition to Australian irrereverence you have forgotten to add Australians' supicion of emotional and political correctness. Re: third world countries - they are not the standard but you would gain incredible kudos if you worried (or actually did something) about really terrible and grim injsutices, rather than kvetching and getting  all emotional over a JOKE. What are YOU doing about people actually killed for being the wrong race? Your complete and utter lack of a sense of proportion is the main reason why you are taken a lot less seriously than you would like to be. Now there is something for you to grow: a sense of proportion. Many, many tinted people need to get their inferiority complexes sorted. Otherwise they will never get rid of the chip on their shoulders. Hammering whitey over colonialism goes only so far in adressing inferiority, sloth, bufoonery and so forth. Respect is earned. If it is given as a result of emotional and political blackmail, it is not real respect. ANd while tinted people continue to do unspeakable things to each other, they have little moral ground to demand respect from anybody. What has been the main cultural contribution of balck Americans since the 1960s? Gangster rap - bufoonery of a sinister kind, in other words.

I think Australians tend to call a spade a spade (no racist connotations intended). Everybody should be capable of being lampooned, for one reason or another, but not specifically because of their race or religion. I find myself agreeing that if somebody is loaded up with bling and taking street jive, then of course they deserve the piss to be taken. Of course not all black people are like that.

I read recently that American comedians are finding it difficult to frame Obama from a comedy perspective.  I think the reason is that it's a very fine line to tread. Make fun of Obama and you make fun of black people, or you could be interpreted in that way.

Some people say that ethnic people hide behind their ethnicity and refuse to be the butt of jokes. The extent to which they do that depends of their acceptance by society. I have one Chinese friend who is a very funny guy and very easy going. When he's among friends he gives as good as he takes - like most other Australians. He still gets some racism, but it doesn't bother him because the type of people who are racist don't really have valuable opinions anyway. They deserve to be ignored as insignificant.

Fakir - have you noticed the amazing overconfidence that young Indians have these days? They seem to blend into the youth subculture much better than their parents ever did.

Fakir,
Pisstake is not racism. You are barking up the wrong tree. Australians take the piss with everyone: tall poppies, rednecks, bogans - why not 'minorities'? Being from a 'minority' is not a virtue and you have no special right to be shielded from pisstake. Look at my Pizza clip -Australians taking the piss across the boards - Lebs, Asians, bogans, wogs, bimbos, the lot. Tastless fun. Not racism.

People ignore you and tell you to bugger off because you can't even imagine that you are not completely right. You have shown no sense of proportion. Most peopel GENUINELY do not think that the skit was racist, even without knowing that the group are as diverse as AUstralia itself.

What irks you most is that Australian are no longer cringing about what others think of them and they are confident enough not to kowtow (!) to them even if they happen to be expatriot 'minorities'. And this confidence is a splendid and excellent thing - and wel-earned and well-deserved. Needless to say, Australia is not perfect but it has every reason to be confident, not least in the way it is handling race relations.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8^th, 2009 at 8:38am:

fakir, As most here will know I am the biggest critic of the often racist views and attitudes of some Australians, but I think in this case Harry Connick Jnr. and yourself have gone a little overboard. I guess because Australia doesn't have such a delicate racial balance between large black and white populations (as the U.S for instance does) we're not as sensitive to such things, and neither do we need to be. I could find nothing racially discriminatory in that skit whatsoever. Just actually dressing as blacks isn't in itself racist, and that's what you seem to be suggesting is the racist element to the skit?? Whilst I'm sure you probably have some valid grievances against Australians, this is simply not racist. And I say this, having been subjected to racial abuse (even though I myself am Anglo).

I entirely agree. There is nothing malicious and racist in this innocent play.
Looks that political correctness reached unprecedented ridiculous proportions.
If you just mentioned word Jew you are automatically an anti-Semite, or if you say black you are a racist.

Fakir, I have been to Canada recently, their treatment of the Chinese in the past was so bad, they have special laws about saying anything at all about the Chinese. As bad as Australia had been, America rarely mention their treatment of The American Indians, even the Blacks have more rights then they do. Im sure even you Fakir, have a bad view of some nationalities or religions.

fakir wrote on Oct 9^th, 2009 at 8:41am:

As for me championing race relations in third world countries - gimme a break.  What do you think I am?  A martyr?  Learn from history - change has never happened from without.  Changes happen from within.  How can an Australian of Asian Descent have any credibility with some third world country he has no connection with, as far as social commentary is concerned?  Why don't you look up history and see the success rate of that.  It doesn't work because 1) I have no motivation or stake and therefore don't have legs/endurance 2) the people themselves would not be receptive to my bandstanding (heck I am having zero success even in my own home country! (I mean Australia folks, not somewhere in Asia))

Arse-covering copout.

Quote:

Fakir, Pisstake is not racism. You are baking up the wrong tree. Australians take the piss with everyone: tall poppies, rednecks, bogans - why not 'minorities'? Being from a 'minority' is not a virtue and you have no special right to be shielded from pisstake. Look at my Pizza clip -Australians taking the piss across the boards - Lebs, Asians, bogans, wogs, bimbos, the lot. Tastless fun. Not racism.

I found the reaction to be extremely ignorant and insulting.
Trust the yanks to put their ignorance on display once again.

The show was never meant meant for people who might put a different spin on things like the American fakir ...oh well Canadian, American...same thing ay?
Yes the fakir is right that Australian viewers never gave a thought to any racism. They never gave a thought to the nationality of the people under the face paint either. It was devoid from any judgement of race because it was a parody, just like a man dressing in drag. There were no thoughts of racial slurs, nor should there have been in a country that judges on the value of what they were doing.
Professionally, it was pretty bad. But in the context of ordinary people just getting up there to have a laugh, it was pretty good.
Also, the context was intended as a tribute to Micheal Jackson, much the same as there were other tributes on the show to people who had died.

We're a nation on the pisstake

anyone'll do

foreign, local, black or bifocal

African, American, Asian or Jew.

That Somers even apologised to Harry Chronic Wanker
for comedy
is an insult to humour.

No point justifying behaviour by using an invented word like "pisstake".  We all know what you're talking about, and I already mentioned it: "irreverent humour".

Yes I get that irreverence has been part of Australian culture and stems from the convict days.  I already said it and I get it.  But I repeat: you need to practice selective irreverence.  You are arrogant, pure and simple, to think you can shove offensive language/behaviour in people's faces just because it is in your nature to be irreverent.  People get hurt, and it is not in your place to justify your behaviour, but it would be gracious of you to try and understand the historical context for why they are hurt.

I repeated in red four times "It's not about the skit" - and a bunch of you started talking about the skit again shrugging your shoulders and wondering why it's offensive.  You're not stupid, I know that much, but what is clear is that you're narrow-minded because you can't understand it (or don't care to).

So I will repeat again, and hopefully if I do it enough times, you will eventually get it:
JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

I mean, I am on the verge of believing that some of you may in fact be stupid.  Think about it: why would I expect a white Australian to find blackface offensive?  Of course you don't find it damn offensive you idiot!  You're smacking white and weren't enslaved by another race!

Stop justifying offensive behaviour just because it's in your culture to be an asshat, I mean "pisstake".

As for bringing up Canada's past, let me tell you what Canada is today: the PM apologized to Chinese families affected and paid out $20,000 to families who had to pay an unfair tax many decades ago.  Furthermore, a few decades ago they created the Charter of Rights and Freedoms which all Canadians proudly believe in.  So bringing up Canada is just going to make Australia look more embarrassing because it's the 21st century and nothing has changed as far as Australian racism is concerned.  And it's no wonder since you use made up words to justify discriminatory and racist behaviour.

This pisstake or whatever you want to call it, is pure arrogance because you force it on all visible minorities who didn't inherit the convict history.  Do you think we want to be called wogs/chinks/abos?  You don't ask us and you don't care.  It must be okay because you said so.  And guess what, we minorities pretend it's okay - we play along and sometimes we even call ourselves racist names.  This is a common response for people who are bullied: we play along pretending that it doesn't hurt us, because denial is sometimes better than admitting that we have to live with a shtty situation.

For me I said: I'll be damned if I am going to let my beloved children grow up in a racist society and suffer what I did.  I don't want to live in denial, nor admit to having to live in a shtty situation.

Some make fun of the fact that I moved to Canada.  Well why would I have loyalty to Australia when the majority can't even bring themselves to call me an "Australian".  No, I'm an "Asian", I'm a "ching chong Chinaman", I'm everything else except an "Australian".

But that doesn't mean I don't have hope in Australia because I have some wonderful white Australian friends who are very good people.  Australians aren't perfect and no-one expects them to be, but you have to want to evolve and become better.  You have to.

My wife is Asian, Fakir and I have a lot of Asian friends, they dont have any problems here, maybe its just you, maybe people just dont like you, could that be a factor.

jfk, Whilst I agree this skit was not racist and people are going overboard, you're going overboard to claim there's no racism here. There most certainly is.

fakir wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 4:06am:

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

So what? You have the right to be offended. But that is not an argument. You are sensitive, we get it. You are entitled to say that Austeralians are not exquisitely polite. Fine. But just because you confuse t with racism does not make it true.

You speak as if th mere fact of your 'minority' status and ethnic background was somehow a moral quality. As if because of these you are infallible in your assessment of what is and is not racist. You are playing victim. But you are not one.

Your big red statement above work just as well if it i turned around:

JUST BECAUSE IT IS OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT IS OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE


Your tintedness and Asian orgins do not make you right.

Quote:

By the way, Australians are often portrayed in American and British flim as cultureless idiots, pissheads and classless swill... An unfair stereotype, but Aussies take it in their stride when its intended to be lighthearted.

Btw helian, you and a few others in this thread are making it quite clear that those stereotypes are spot on.

fakir wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 4:06am:

JUST BECAUSE IT"S NOT OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT'S NOT OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

Precisely. In the case of this skit, it was  the reaction of Harry Connick Jnr that made it racist. Americans just don't get the humour.

The only thing to do when somebody takes offense is to apologise. Then, it's end of story.

The skit was in bad taste perhaps, but Hey Hey was built on bad taste humour. Obviously Australia is not really as receptive to bad taste humour nowadays, especially since the skit about terminally ill kids went wrong on Chaser.

I believe that the intent of this skit was not racist in any way, and to say that it shows that Australians are racist because of that is totally off the planet. American political correctness is off the planet.

Darryl Somers was obviously horrified that Connick Jr took offense, because it was just intended to be a bit of buffoonery. Besides, there was only one White Anglosaxon among the performers. One was even of Indian background. It was obviously not intended to be racist.  
To be quite honest I was more offended by the self righteous ignorant attitude of the American talk show guests "They treat their aborigines badly". How the bugger would they know?  

I have good friends of many nationalities, colours and religions. I am the least racist person I know, but even I have caused offense a few times by not thinking.

On one occasion, a Canadian guy was handing around Maple leaf badges. I made a comment  about the Marijuana leaf. I was quoting a line by John Candy from the comedy "Canadian Bacon", but the guy took offense. I explained that it was just a quote from the John Candy movie, and that I didn't mean any offense. It didn't matter that John Candy was Canadian or that it was quite a funny line, he took offense, I apologised, no fuss, and that was that.  

Quote:

The only thing to do when somebody takes offense is to apologise. Then, it's end of story.

I'm sure they get it muso, they just have to be overly politically correct because of their extensive history of lynchings, segregation and racial tensions. And because Johnny made us their little lapdog, naturally they believe we must follow their cultural sensitivities.

Im not saying there s no racism here Abu, Im saying that if you go looking for it, you will find it, you can find anything if you look for it. At my local Hungry Jacks, there used to be a mixed bag of employees until an Indian manager took over, now only Indians work there, Is that racism by them, or by me noticing it. Im sure I would be called racist for saying something  and yet where is the diversity that we must apply used there. If I only employed Aussies Im sure questions would be asked.

As has already been said here, Australia has its racism as does every other nation. But Australia has also absorbed millions of migrants from every part of the world, and been transformed by it, without social chaos.

When it comes to the blackface image, Australians are not as offended by it as are Americans, being a reminder as it probably is, of their once longtime predilection for unspeakable cruelty towards Africans.

But, having said that, I doubt you'll see the Australian comedian on national TV who paints his face to send up an Aboriginal Australian.

Comedians should takes risks... If their comedy fails and offends instead, the only way out is to apologise and move on.

And fakir, didn't Canada follow Australia's lead and apologise to its indigenous people for injustices suffered?

That's followed our lead fakir.... followed.

Quote:

I mean, I am on the verge of believing that some of you may in fact be stupid.  Think about it: why would I expect a white Australian to find blackface offensive?  Of course you don't find it damn offensive you idiot!  You're smacking white and weren't enslaved by another race!

I wouldn't expect them to find it offensive becasue I don't find it offensive when black people dress as white people.
I doubt if women get offended when a man dresses in drag. Maybe horses get offended when a human puts on a horse suit, I don't know, you'll need to ask Mr.Ed.

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery, but why would every black person associate themselves with the Jackson Five?  Are they that far up themselves that they think that they possess the talents of the Jacksons just because of their skin colour?
I'm beginning to think that you moved to Canada just to be closer to your own kind - the idiot yanks.

we are not responsible for your apologetic cowardly feelings

fakir wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 4:06am:

[color=#0000ff]I mean, I am on the verge of believing that some of you may in fact be stupid.  Think about it: why would I expect a white Australian to find blackface offensive?  Of course you don't find it damn offensive you idiot!  You're smacking white and weren't enslaved by another race! Some make fun of the fact that I moved to Canada.  Well why would I have loyalty to Australia when the majority can't even bring themselves to call me an "Australian".  No, I'm an "Asian", I'm a "ching chong Chinaman", I'm everything else except an "Australian".

Fakir, you're damaged, disingenuous and weak.

Quote:

But, having said that, I doubt you'll see the Australian comedian on national TV who paints his face to send up an Aboriginal Australian.

I think you're right the Helian, but the difference being that it would be OK to parody an aboriginal of great note if it had nothing to do with aboriginals as a whole.

I once had a Turkish friend who ran an aboriginals arts shop and he could probably pass as having an aboriginal background if he told you so.
I said to him "You tell the tourists that your aboriginal don't you?" He said, "No, but I don't tell them I'm not".

Obama winning the Nobel Peace Prize should do some good for race relations, although it seems very premature. He'll have a lot to live up to.

Just having a black President (although he's half white) - is closing the racist divide you would assume.

Obama winning the Nobel peace prize is an absolute joke, tell me that has nothing to do with race. Apparently he was nominated within the first two weeks of office, all he did was buy a dog at that stage. He has done nothing.

it was a award given based on obamas race.

Soren wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 8:37am:

So what? You have the right to be offended. But that is not an argument. You are sensitive, we get it. You are entitled to say that Austeralians are not exquisitely polite. Fine. But just because you confuse t with racism does not make it true. JUST BECAUSE IT IS OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT IS OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE

What?  You truly are deluded.  Why would I expect black face to be offensive to a racist white Australian?  What's your point?  My point is, having been told by the entire world that it IS racist, are you going to continue to think it's okay to do it?  70% of Australians polled still think it's okay even after being told by the rest of the world it is not okay.

Look, I know you don't respect me, because you believe you're the only true Australian and I'm only "Asian" to you.  I know you don't even respect the TRUE Australians (Aboriginals), but if you want a lesson in racism, then hear it from a TRUE Australian.  I am sick of listening to you smug white Australians with a sense of self-righteousness and entitlement to do or say whatever the hell you want with total disregard to how it is perceived:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/TV/10/09/jackson.australia/index.html

And here is a statement from a non-white Australian:
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,26185534-10229,00.html

And you already know the rest of the friggin world now thinks you're all backward and stubbornly racist.  Here's an example:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6865623.ece

Take especial notice in the last article in the DIFFERENCE between what the non-Australian point of view versus the Australian point of view (who keep stubbornly defending the racism).

So you heard it from a non-white Australian, a true Australian, and the rest of the world.  And here you stubborn white Australians are still jabbering 4 pages later thinking there's nothing wrong.  She'll be right mate, just take the pisstake because we said so.

You know what makes Australians dim?  It's not so much the skit that makes the world think you're racist (maybe just woefully ignorant) because you apologized for it.  What makes you racist is your continual efforts to defend the skit even after you find out it's racist - that's what makes you racist.  Here you all are arguing with me and proving me right in the process.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 10^th, 2009 at 10:26am:

Fakir, you're damaged, disingenuous and weak.

you don't know what happened to me, so to say that with zero sensitivity or refrain shows the extent of your disregard for others who are not the same as you (or think like you) and your cruelty.  Let me guess, you were a bully all through school?

Racism is a small issue when you look at Muslims killing Muslims, Africans killing anybody they like, revolutionaries that become worse than the people they overthrew. Whatever happened to you Fakir, it was most likely your own people that did it to you. I dont give a rats arse about refugees, if the country is trouble, stay and fight, dont run away like a little girl, better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

fakir wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 1:20am:

that's what makes you racist.  Here you all are arguing with me and proving me right in the process.[/color]

Fakir - some Australians are racist. No argument. We have a our share of rednecks, and they disgust me. The skit on Hey Hey was not intended to be racist. (Do you think an Indian and a Pakistani Australian would be involved in a racist skit?) We don't have a history of blackface minstrels in this country and the significance was lost on most people. Blackface doesn't touch a nerve as it does in America. I say that as the least racist person I know. In my youth I dated girls of many nationalities. (ahem  - It was in the 70's - ok?)

Is Australia more racist than other countries? Well in my experience, the UK is much worse. It seems to be worst in the very old.

I agree with you that if it's perceived as racist, and it wasn't intended as racist, then an apology should be made regardless. Discrimination must always be defined by the person who is being discriminated against.

Sometimes racism can be very subtle, and when we're talking comedy, it can be a fine line to walk.

I know of a rock band who plays a song called 'black widow'. Most people understand that to be a spider. On one occasion, they were playing at a gig where there was a group of aborigines present. They interpreted it literally. The lead singer very quickly interjected - the spider!  

Just because I dont like what other race or religion does doesnt make me a racist, it just means I dont like what they do. Lets stop people from drinking black coffee or buying black paint or coloring their hair white, I would use a white pen if I could but what color would the paper be, I wouldnt want to offend anybody

muso,


Quote:

Discrimination must always be defined by the person who is being discriminated against.

A definition of discrimination which is so broad and ambigious is dangerous. Especially when laws are enacted to punish people for discrimination. There needs to be standards of what is and isn't discrimination/vilification that can be referred to, and which apply to all.

fakir wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 1:20am:

Soren wrote on Oct 10th, 2009 at 8:37am: So what? You have the right to be offended. But that is not an argument. You are sensitive, we get it. You are entitled to say that Austeralians are not exquisitely polite. Fine. But just because you confuse t with racism does not make it true. JUST BECAUSE IT IS OFFENSIVE TO YOU, DOESN'T MEAN IT IS OFFENSIVE TO SOMEONE ELSE What?  You truly are deluded.  Why would I expect black face to be offensive to a racist white Australian?  What's your point?  My point is, having been told by the entire world that it IS racist, are you going to continue to think it's okay to do it?  70% of Australians polled still think it's okay even after being told by the rest of the world it is not okay. Look, I know you don't respect me, because you believe you're the only true Australian and I'm only "Asian" to you.  I know you don't even respect the TRUE Australians (Aboriginals), but if you want a lesson in racism, then hear it from a TRUE Australian.  I am sick of listening to you smug white Australians with a sense of self-righteousness and entitlement to do or say whatever the hell you want with total disregard to how it is perceived: http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/TV/10/09/jackson.australia/index.html And here is a statement from a non-white Australian: http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,26185534-10229,00.html And you already know the rest of the friggin world now thinks you're all backward and stubbornly racist.  Here's an example: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article6865623.ece Take especial notice in the last article in the DIFFERENCE between what the non-Australian point of view versus the Australian point of view (who keep stubbornly defending the racism). So you heard it from a non-white Australian, a true Australian, and the rest of the world.  And here you stubborn white Australians are still jabbering 4 pages later thinking there's nothing wrong.  She'll be right mate, just take the pisstake because we said so. You know what makes Australians dim?  It's not so much the skit that makes the world think you're racist (maybe just woefully ignorant) because you apologized for it.  What makes you racist is your continual efforts to defend the skit even after you find out it's racist - that's what makes you racist.  Here you all are arguing with me and proving me right in the process.

You are confusing North American media opinion with people's opinion elsewhere. North Americans know next to nothing about Australia. So they imagine it in their own context. That's orml. But that does not make them the arbiters of what Australians should think. The skit would have had a different MEANING on New Orleans TV than here. A different meaning. You think the only context imaginable is the context you perceive. It is not.

You should stop and think - why do decent Australians say, in good faith, that they do not find the skit racist? Your only explanation is that they do not even realise they are rcist. You, being a 'minority', think that you know better. You can't even imagin that thy genuinely do not see the racism, do not mean it offensively but simply see it as good fun in poor taste.

Like all PC people, your indignation is the most precious tghing for you and you will not let anything to allay it. You have decided some time ago that Australians are racist and now seize every opportunity to justify yourself. You will rather dispute what ordinary decent Australians tell you in order to maintain your rage.

About your right to be offended - my point, inconceivably, is that your being offended is neither here nor there. Whether you think Austalians are racits is neither here nor there. Australia can point to it record, to it past and present eforts and can safely say that you that you are wrong.
And move on  - unlike you.

fakir wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 1:20am:

What makes you racist is your continual efforts to defend the skit even after you find out it's racist - that's what makes you racist.  Here you all are arguing with me and proving me right in the process.

We didn't find out that it was racist. We found out that some other people may find it racist.
Not the same thing. Other people's opinion is not, by definition, better than ours.  

Other people heard Daryl's apology, a polite gesture of recognition and regret, and now they need to hear and understand that it was neither seen or meant to be racist by Australians. But you can't hear that bit or you do not believe it.

And as jfk points out, we do not have to LIKE you or any other race, culture, persuasion. We'll like them when they become likable. Simple.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 8:18am:

muso, Quote: Discrimination must always be defined by the person who is being discriminated against. A definition of discrimination which is so broad and ambigious is dangerous. Especially when laws are enacted to punish people for discrimination. There needs to be standards of what is and isn't discrimination/vilification that can be referred to, and which apply to all.

Strictly speaking, you're right.  I actually teach EEO to my team at work among other things. It's not the basis of prosecution, but it's a good practice to defuse a situation if the other party is obviously offended.

From a business point of view, you have to be very mindful of vicarious liability, so we tend to go overboard slightly.

muso wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 8:41am:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 11th, 2009 at 8:18am: muso, Quote: Discrimination must always be defined by the person who is being discriminated against. A definition of discrimination which is so broad and ambigious is dangerous. Especially when laws are enacted to punish people for discrimination. There needs to be standards of what is and isn't discrimination/vilification that can be referred to, and which apply to all. Strictly speaking, you're right.  I actually teach EEO to my team at work among other things. It's not the basis of prosecution, but it's a good practice to defuse a situation if the other party is obviously offended. From a business point of view, you have to be very mindful of vicarious liability, so we tend to go overboard slightly.

Ah, but when whitey is offended by tinted practices, that is racist.

When I hear people waiving the word 'racists'  around as an opening gambit, I alway think: here is a preening bigot, a rent-seeking shakedown artists.

Soren wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 8:47am:

muso wrote on Oct 11th, 2009 at 8:41am: abu_rashid wrote on Oct 11th, 2009 at 8:18am: muso, Quote: Discrimination must always be defined by the person who is being discriminated against. A definition of discrimination which is so broad and ambigious is dangerous. Especially when laws are enacted to punish people for discrimination. There needs to be standards of what is and isn't discrimination/vilification that can be referred to, and which apply to all. Strictly speaking, you're right.  I actually teach EEO to my team at work among other things. It's not the basis of prosecution, but it's a good practice to defuse a situation if the other party is obviously offended. From a business point of view, you have to be very mindful of vicarious liability, so we tend to go overboard slightly. Ah, but when whitey is offended by tinted practices, that is racist. When I hear people waiving the word 'racists'  around as an opening gambit, I alway think: here is a preening bigot, a rent-seeking shakedown artists.

I've seen examples of people using their race, their sex or their sexuality as a means of getting what they want at work. I agree that it goes on. However to simply deny that discrimination is a major problem is fallacious. If a person of a particular ethnicity (or religion) is in the minority, then discrimination can potentially take an enormous toll on psychological and physical health.

I remember an anti-discrimination case in Central Queensland where a guy complained that his workmates were swearing at him and abusing him because of his religion, and his workmates took out a counter case because he was preaching to them from the Bible very loudly during lunchbreaks.  ;D The magistrate threw it out of court.

fakir wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 1:26am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 10th, 2009 at 10:26am: Fakir, you're damaged, disingenuous and weak. you don't know what happened to me, so to say that with zero sensitivity or refrain shows the extent of your disregard for others who are not the same as you (or think like you) and your cruelty.  Let me guess, you were a bully all through school?

Not a bully at all... And have no problem with any ethnic minority. But I'm not going to weep alongside a weak character who condemns my people out of hand under the guise of defending an ethnic minority when in fact its all about your self-pity.

Just so.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 4:50am:

Not a bully at all... And have no problem with any ethnic minority. But I'm not going to weep alongside a weak character who condemns my people out of hand under the guise of defending an ethnic minority when in fact its all about your self-pity.

Self-pity?  Almost everything I write is from other people's opinion, or an objective observation.  I realize there are mean-spirited people like you who don't care about minorities like me, that's why most of my posts clearly show OTHER people's opinions.  I don't suppose you read any of the links I posted?

Just say it how it is: your self-righteous personal attack is merely a defense mechanism that allows you to ignore Australian racism.  In effect, you can ignore everything I say because you don't like me personally.  You resolve to personal attacks because you have no real arguments on topic.

Soren wrote on Oct 11^th, 2009 at 8:39am:

We didn't find out that it was racist. We found out that some other people may find it racist. Not the same thing. Other people's opinion is not, by definition, better than ours.   Other people heard Daryl's apology, a polite gesture of recognition and regret, and now they need to hear and understand that it was neither seen or meant to be racist by Australians. But you can't hear that bit or you do not believe it. And as jfk points out, we do not have to LIKE you or any other race, culture, persuasion. We'll like them when they become likable. Simple.

What don't you get?  Black people find it offensive, and it marginalizes them.  Therefore it's racist.  You're telling me that you white Aussies are the gods that determine what is racist or not?  Hell, living geographically apart from the rest of the world really has made you out of touch.

As for telling me about Daryl's apology and that supposedly I don't want to hear it, I've ALREADY addressed this earlier!  I said again and again, that we all KNOW the doctors didn't mean to offend so stop apologizing for it!

What you should apologize for is for 70% of the population being so globally ignorant that you didn't know it was racist in the first place, and second when people around the world universally condemned the skit, you kept on defending it and said "it's okay to do it, because we didn't mean to offend".  Just say that to a cop next time you beat up your wife.

For the record, abu_rashid and muso are the only ones on this thread who have shown the right attitude.  The world would have forgiven Australians a lot sooner if you just get your heads out of your arrogant asses and show you are willing to join the rest of the world.

ps. any time the topic of racism and Australians comes up, this thread is a perfect example to link to.  You guys really don't know how you look to the rest of the world do you? ::)

fakir - get off your leftard handwringing blinkers.

if blacks find it offensive, that's their inferiority complex.

abu and muso are the only ones who agreewith you.

aussie has done nothing to warrant "forgiving", everyone wants to come.
Get the message - this is a country of free speech. don't like that, don't come, get away.

fakir wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 8:12am:

For the record, abu_rashid and muso are the only ones on this thread who have shown the right attitude.  The world would have forgiven Australians a lot sooner if you just get your heads out of your arrogant asses and show you are willing to join the rest of the world.

That's the point of it all, really - the attitude. The emotional correctness. The emotional bullying by 'minorities', demanding emotional validation. We resist being bullied into self-critique and confession of guilt.

You are upset that we don't see the world your way. You acknowledge that the doctors, or the program, was not meant to be racists or offensive. Yet ypou bang on about guilt and forgiveness.

The blacks of America are not victims of whitey any more. The blacks of Africa are not victims of whitey any more. Australian Aboriginees are not victims of whitey any more. You are not a victim. Stop appropraiting the victim status.

well once more we see non whites, demanding far greater restrictions be placed on white races, than on any others, as if asians, africans, or any other non caucasian ethnicities aren't racist?
Ha, anyone who has ever been outside the realms of their own fantastical world of self delusion, knows that is bull.
We see tribalism of such extreme degrees in africa, that belonging to the wrong tribe, in the wrong area, can often be fatal, yet we see the world up in arms about a silly amateur skit. What a bunch of bleeding hypocrites.
Harry Connick deciding to be offended on behalf of other people is just ridiculous, and I would have a lot more respect for him if he instead addressed some derision for all those revolting black american artists whose songs promoting violence and grossly offensive sexist behaviour, are accepted as some cultural right for "n!ggers", their own self description incidentally, mine would be moronic turds.
So excuse me for not joining in the chorus of self flagellation we are supposed to be indulging in, but we aussies have aa great sense of humour, and we also have a good idea where to draw the line between offensive, and jusst being overly precious.

Quote:

abu and muso are the only ones who agreewith you.

Actually neither muso nor myself agreed with him.

course abu, being a muslim, you disagree with every infidel all the time.

enjoy your jihad for your perverted pants prophet

Soren wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 9:55am:

That's the point of it all, really - the attitude. The emotional correctness. The emotional bullying by 'minorities', demanding emotional validation. We resist being bullied into self-critique and confession of guilt. You are upset that we don't see the world your way. You acknowledge that the doctors, or the program, was not meant to be racists or offensive. Yet ypou bang on about guilt and forgiveness. The blacks of America are not victims of whitey any more. The blacks of Africa are not victims of whitey any more. Australian Aboriginees are not victims of whitey any more. You are not a victim. Stop appropraiting the victim status.

You're kidding right?  Then what on earth is considered racism to you?  Does that word mean anything to you if every victim of racism is merely emotionally bullying the bully to apologize?  You are stupid, plain and simple if you think that a victim of racism is the "bully" when he wants an apology for a racist attack.

What's the standard?  Do you consider the "n" word offensive to blacks?  If so, then how is the "n" word offensive, but black face is not?  Your logic, and the logic of 70% of Australians is flawed and is the reason that without a shadow of a doubt, white Australians are racist.  Full stop.

Wake up.  Blacks are still victimized everywhere, including and especially in Australia and the fact that you actually don't think so just shows the extent of your denial.  Want proof?  Here:

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,,25649566-2761,00.html

Stop living in denial and see what everyone in the world (NOT just me) sees: white Australians are racist.

Want so more proof?

Here:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/07/09/australia-confronts-racism/

Look even the PM at first denied there's racism, but he had to about face.  Read the article for yourself.  I am presuming this board is predominantly filled with intellectuals, if it took so long for Rudd to admit racism, and the lot of you are still in denial, then I have no hope for the majority of white Australians.

Want more proof?

Here's an essay, and look at the quotes: "Australian Racism is about Denial":

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/2000/jimbruce.html

Sound familiar?  That's been the theme throughout this entire thread:  white Australians denying there is a problem.

Yes my friend, you resist confessions of guilt.  We already know that.  That doesn't stop the fact you are guilty in every court of decency and respect.  Respect has to be earned, and if there is one thing this skit has highlighted, is that Australians have embarrassed themselves by their crass, ignorant, racist and indifferent culture.  You don't need to tell us you resist confessions of guilt - we already know.

Quote:

abu and muso are the only ones who agreewith you.

Actually we had a thread about it on AussieMuslims, and every single Muslim agreed it wasn't a racist skit.

Sometimes we can agree, don't let your extremist absolutionist illogical thoughts get the better of you

Most of the  comments I've seen on this that say Aussies are racist are by white Australians, I was with some Aboriginals on Friday who wondered what all the fuss was about, their opinion was that political correctness had gone mad.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 11:07am:

Quote: abu and muso are the only ones who agreewith you. Actually we had a thread about it on AussieMuslims, and every single Muslim agreed it wasn't a racist skit. Sometimes we can agree, don't let your extremist absolutionist illogical thoughts get the better of you

why don't you just go ahead and say it: sprintcycle is racist.  I mean, is the entire nation living in denial or has that word been magically erased from your collective vocabulary?

wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 11:15am:

Most of the  comments I've seen on this that say Aussies are racist are by white Australians, I was with some Aboriginals on Friday who wondered what all the fuss was about, their opinion was that political correctness had gone mad.

There's a phenomena called "Stockholm Syndrome".  Australian minorities live in denial that there is a problem of racism out of self-defence.  "Racism" has been shoved so far down our throats that our moral compass has been desensitised like the rest of Australia.  It's only when minorities have left Australia that they are "freed" to acknowledge there was a problem all along.  This also happens with "Stockholm Syndrome".

Still think it's just victim mentality?

Here: the friggin United Nations thinks racism is entrenched in Australia:

http://blog.taragana.com/n/un-says-racism-entrenched-in-australia-151103/

Heck wikipedia actually has an entry especially for Australian racism!!  Ha!  Here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Australia

85% admit there is racism in Australia.  You know what that means?  Apparently the other 15% are on this board.  ::)  A whopping 20% of Australians have been victims - which seems to be almost the ENTIRE population of minorities in Australia!

Still think there's no problem?  Hmm?

Two questions Fakir- 1 Are you white?
                              2- Have you ever been to another country?

Quote:

why don't you just go ahead and say it: sprintcycle is racist.

Actually I already said it, back in the first or second page of the thread.

There's no doubting sprint and many other Australians are racists. But that doesn't mean this skit was racist.

fakir wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 11:02am:

Blacks are still victimized everywhere, including and especially in Australia and the fact that you actually don't think so just shows the extent of your denial.  Want proof?  Here: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,,25649566-2761,00.html Stop living in denial and see what everyone in the world (NOT just me) sees: white Australians are racist. Want so more proof? Here: http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/07/09/australia-confronts-racism/

Nonsense. Australians have contempt for people living in violent squalor and self-neglect, regardless of their hue. ANd there is no racism towards anyone who can take responsibility for his own life, his children's welfare, washes, holds down a job and has no despicable notions of his own cultural exceptionalism. And can speak intelligibly.

Prejudice is a good thing. It is about learning from past experience and only fools don't learn from it. It is not racism. We all live by our prejudices. You'd be dead if you didn't have a prejudice about crossing the road when the light's red.

Only new experience will correct past prejudices. And anyway, in comedy, a certain amount of cruelty is essential.

f]BBC has decreed that its comedies are not to be ''unduly intimidatory, humiliating, intrusive, aggressive or derogatory''. John Howard Davies, who used to run BBC comedy, pointed out that this is the sort of absurdity that happens when a committee decides guidelines. An individual exercising editorial judgment is far preferable, especially if that individual has been chosen because of his or her connection with the real world, and what makes people laugh in it.

I have occasionally thought that I used to find programs put out by the BBC funny because I was so much younger when I saw them. However, watching re-runs of old comedy programs, I realise I was wrong: they were, plainly and simply, very funny. The famous Fawlty Towers episode in which Basil insults the Germans fails every one of the new guidelines. It is racist, intimidating, humiliating, mocks Spaniards, Germans, and the mentally ill, and commits other offences too numerous to mention. It is also dementedly funny, even after repeated viewings over 30 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/6292411/BBC-plans-for-TV-comedy-are-no-laughing-matter.html

Quote:

ANd there is no racism towards anyone who can take responsibility for his own life, his children's welfare, washes, holds down a job and has no despicable notions of his own cultural exceptionalism. And can speak intelligibly.

The fact you think those things make racism ok is quite disturbing soren.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 11:50am:

Quote: ANd there is no racism towards anyone who can take responsibility for his own life, his children's welfare, washes, holds down a job and has no despicable notions of his own cultural exceptionalism. And can speak intelligibly. The fact you think those things make racism ok is quite disturbing soren.

I said no such thing. I said that if you fit in and take responsibility for yourself and your family, nobody cares about your hue. Australia has had multiracial immigration for decades now and its under 40 age group is as diverse as that immigration program. ANd they all speak with the same accent, intermarry, they all went to school together.  They have grown up in a meritocracy.

Some people are racist. SO what.  There is no institutional or cultural racism in this country. Hating uppity foreigners is not racism, 'uppity' being the operative word.

There are certain minimum standards in this society that need to be met in order to enjoy its hospitality. This is common sense.
Meet those minima and you'll be fine. Transgress or ignore them and people will let you know.

Quote:

if you fit in and take responsibility for yourself and your family, nobody cares about your hue.

This is just nonsense.

A lot of the racial abuse suffered by people here in Australia is anonymous drunks screaming things out of car windows, or intimidating ladies of ethnic background in secluded car parks and the like. And it's therefore got nothing to do with taking responsibility or actually anything you do. It's mostly random. This is especially true for anyone who has a very visibly different appearance to anglo-aussies, like Asians, which is probably why fakir perceived the country as so racist.

Both cases of racial abuse I've encountered were by louts screaming things from afar. They are usually cowards who run a mile as soon as you look in their direction. I remember one night doing some late night shopping not long after 9/11, and I was wearing a salwar kameez when some drunken idiot screamed something out to me from the other side of the car park. I didn't understand his slurred speech so I asked him to repeat it, to which I clearly heard "Do you support the Talibaan?". I immediately began running towards him screaming "I am the Talibaaan!!!!" The pathetic coward dropped his beer bottle and bolted, faster than lightening  ;D

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 1:37pm:

A lot of the racial abuse suffered by people here in Australia is anonymous drunks screaming things out of car windows, or intimidating ladies of ethnic background ...

I overheard an example of that on a flight recently. This guy in his late 50's or early 60's (hair died ginger) came on to the flight with a very nice looking asian woman who didn't look old enough to be his daughter. She looked like a princess.

While drinking my coffee, I overheard him say to her "Of course you know what Australians would call you? - Ugly scary lady"

- And my blood boiled. I restrained myself from turning around and saying "You ignorant bastard - you don't deserve such a beautiful wife"

They'd probably call him 'mutton dressed up as lamb' for that matter.

It's a form of racism. It was probably fueled by a sense of insecurity on his part, but he obviously felt it was acceptable to say that to the woman, because she was Asian.

muso - was that one of the money grabbing phillipino brides ?

Sure sprint was incorrect in his analysis of your responses here Abu, but I do not think he is racist. I think he is "religionist", in that he believes his religion is naturally superior to all others, despite any evidence to validate those beliefs, but we could probably label devout followers of any faith, with the same thing.

We see a lot of nonsense about racism, and it is often not a persons skin colouring, or ethnic background, which motivated people to hold derogatory opinions about others, it is more to do with behaviours that these people display, that they consider distasteful, or unacceptable.

Is Fakir labelling aussies as racist an act of racism?
Of course you can see the nonsense in this idea, it is the behaviour, that he perceives as offensive that he objects to, however ascribing that behaviour as a national trait is where the lines get blurred.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 1:37pm:

Quote: if you fit in and take responsibility for yourself and your family, nobody cares about your hue. This is just nonsense. A lot of the racial abuse suffered by people here in Australia is anonymous drunks screaming things out of car windows, or intimidating ladies of ethnic background in secluded car parks and the like. And it's therefore got nothing to do with taking responsibility or actually anything you do. It's mostly random. This is especially true for anyone who has a very visibly different appearance to anglo-aussies, like Asians, which is probably why fakir perceived the country as so racist. Both cases of racial abuse I've encountered were by louts screaming things from afar. They are usually cowards who run a mile as soon as you look in their direction. I remember one night doing some late night shopping not long after 9/11, and I was wearing a salwar kameez when some drunken idiot screamed something out to me from the other side of the car park. I didn't understand his slurred speech so I asked him to repeat it, to which I clearly heard "Do you support the Talibaan?". I immediately began running towards him screaming "I am the Talibaaan!!!!" The pathetic coward dropped his beer bottle and bolted, faster than lightening  ;D

Dare you to walk down Haldon Street in Lakemba in a "Zionists Rule!" t-shirt.

mozza,


Quote:

Sure sprint was incorrect in his analysis of your responses here Abu, but I do not think he is racist. I think he is "religionist",

Check out his statements about "coffee people" in the "Would you marry someone of an opposing race" thread. He's made it quite clear several times that he's racist. It's nothing to do with his religion.

soren,


Quote:

Dare you to walk down Haldon Street in Lakemba in a "Zionists Rule!" t-shirt.

You are kidding right? You're more stupid than I first thought.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 9:02pm:

soren, Quote: Dare you to walk down Haldon Street in Lakemba in a "Zionists Rule!" t-shirt. You are kidding right? You're more stupid than I first thought.

What, are you chicken? Or you don't have faith in your coreligionists impeccable peacefulness? They wouldn't hurl abuse at someone just because of what he is wearing, would they? Or throw rocks at him just because of his clothes?

No because I'd be disgusted by the thought of wearing such a despicable political ideology. Likewise I wouldn't walk through Vaucluse with a "Nazis rule" t-shirt...

The important point is though, what on earth has this got to do with racial abuse?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 9:17pm:

No because I'd be disgusted by the thought of wearing such a despicable political ideology. Likewise I wouldn't walk through Vaucluse with a "Nazis rule" t-shirt... The important point is though, what on earth has this got to do with racial abuse?

People might not like to see Taliban lookalikes walking around soon after 9/11 - despicable ideology and all that. Not to mention that it's a bit - what's the word? - insensitive, don't you think? Or do you think sensitivity is one way only?

soren, your analogy is way off.

If you used the example of an orthodox Jew walking down haldon st. and being attacked for that, then I could accept your point. But a Zionist, no. Zionism has nothing to do with race, culture or ethnicity. It's purely a political ideology, and a racial supremacist one at that.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 9:25pm:

soren, your analogy is way off. If you used the example of an orthodox Jew walking down haldon st. and being attacked for that, then I could accept your point. But a Zionist, no. Zionism has nothing to do with race, culture or ethnicity. It's purely a political ideology, and a racial supremacist one at that.

Like Islam?

You'd be killed for wearing an item of clothing.

Come on don't you get tired of peddling the same garbage....

Islam is a religion, and that fact is recognised by the vast majority of the world's inhabitants. You're hanging out on the lunatic fringe my friend.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 9:56pm:

Come on don't you get tired of peddling the same garbage....

Look who's talking.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 9:56pm:

Islam is a religion

Yeees, we know, religion of peace.

Zzzzzzz......

fakir wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 8:08am:

Self-pity?  Almost everything I write is from other people's opinion, or an objective observation.  I realize there are mean-spirited people like you who don't care about minorities like me, that's why most of my posts clearly show OTHER people's opinions.  I don't suppose you read any of the links I posted? Just say it how it is: your self-righteous personal attack is merely a defense mechanism that allows you to ignore Australian racism.  In effect, you can ignore everything I say because you don't like me personally.  You resolve to personal attacks because you have no real arguments on topic.

Oh, I care about minorities, just not self-piteous weepers like yourself...

Yes there has been and is still racism in Australia and I've never heard of any country where minorities,  particularly when they first arrive en masse, aren't feared to some degree... And there are some parts of Australia that appear more racist than others and we all know it... i.e. we don't hide from it... And thanks and more power to those from other nations who've stuck it out here and helped us move forward.

Come to terms with your self-pity... Maybe then you can start travelling with your chin up.

Soren wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 11:44am:

Nonsense. Australians have contempt for people living in violent squalor and self-neglect, regardless of their hue. ANd there is no racism towards anyone who can take responsibility for his own life, his children's welfare, washes, holds down a job and has no despicable notions of his own cultural exceptionalism. And can speak intelligibly. Prejudice is a good thing. It is about learning from past experience and only fools don't learn from it. It is not racism. We all live by our prejudices. You'd be dead if you didn't have a prejudice about crossing the road when the light's red. Only new experience will correct past prejudices. And anyway, in comedy, a certain amount of cruelty is essential. f]BBC has decreed that its comedies are not to be ''unduly intimidatory, humiliating, intrusive, aggressive or derogatory''. John Howard Davies, who used to run BBC comedy, pointed out that this is the sort of absurdity that happens when a committee decides guidelines. An individual exercising editorial judgment is far preferable, especially if that individual has been chosen because of his or her connection with the real world, and what makes people laugh in it. I have occasionally thought that I used to find programs put out by the BBC funny because I was so much younger when I saw them. However, watching re-runs of old comedy programs, I realise I was wrong: they were, plainly and simply, very funny. The famous Fawlty Towers episode in which Basil insults the Germans fails every one of the new guidelines. It is racist, intimidating, humiliating, mocks Spaniards, Germans, and the mentally ill, and commits other offences too numerous to mention. It is also dementedly funny, even after repeated viewings over 30 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/simonheffer/6292411/BBC-plans-for-TV-comedy-are-no-laughing-matter.html

I am addressing you and abu_rashid in this post, because both of you keep insisting the skit wasn't racist.

None of you are qualified to say the skit wasn't racist.  Only black people are, and they all unanimously condemn the skit.  There's no point bringing up Fawlty Towers.  Sigh.  I keep addressing this point over and over.  You cannot compare apples to oranges.  Because of history, some things just don't offend some races but the same thing could offend other races because of historical injustices.  Spaniards don't have a history of slavery or oppression from the British, and the Germans are truly repentent about the WW2 (to their great credit).

So for you to keep insisting the black face skit is not racist is ignorant.  Do you really believe you decide what is racist or not?  The sheer arrogance is astounding.

What is really amazing about this case, and this is why it is worth discussing, is that Australians of all colour seem to think the skit is not offensive.  It just highlights how endemic racism is in Australia.  Racism doesn't have to be a conscious act to be racism.  Racism is forgivable if done once out of ignorance.  What is unforgivable is thinking it is not offensive after being told by the targets of parody that it is.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 11:03pm:

Oh, I care about minorities, just not self-piteous weepers like yourself... Yes there has been and is still racism in Australia and I've never heard of any country where minorities,  particularly when they first arrive en masse, aren't feared to some degree... And there are some parts of Australia that appear more racist than others and we all know it... i.e. we don't hide from it... And thanks and more power to those from other nations who've stuck it out here and helped us move forward. Come to terms with your self-pity... Maybe then you can start travelling with your chin up.

Okay, give it up with the pathetic self-pity remark.  Okay?  This thread is already 8 pages long, and if that's the best contribution to this TOPIC you can give you can just go away.  I'm sure there is another forum somewhere for "people who have nothing to contribute except dumb insults".

As for the "self-pity", if you think that's the reason why people (such as Martin Luther King) champion a social cause: out of self-pity, you really didn't attend your social studies classes in primary school.

I use personal examples from my life because they give context and depth to the position I am debating on these forums.  I strongly suggest you either participate in a real-life debate or watch it on TV so you understand how these things work.  I don't suggest you tell your opponents that they are just operating out of self-pity because they will just laugh at you - like I am doing right now.

So - do you actually have anything else to share?  Coz right now my image of you is that dumb kid in the back of the class room that just pulls people's hair and calls people names because he's too dumb to say anything intelligible.  So surprise me.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 7:53pm:

Is Fakir labelling aussies as racist an act of racism? Of course you can see the nonsense in this idea, it is the behaviour, that he perceives as offensive that he objects to, however ascribing that behaviour as a national trait is where the lines get blurred.

I have provided enough links on this thread showing that around the world, Australians have a reputation for racism (please go back and read them).  I live on the other side of the world (literally) and people ask me about the racism in Australia.

As an Australian, people have asked me in every country I've lived "I've heard that Australia is racist, is that true?".  At first I told them it wasn't that bad, because I had been out of the country for about 7 years.  I was one of the visible minorities who assimilated like some of the people on this board are expecting me to do, so I didn't really experience much racism during my university days, unlike my high school days which was an absolute racism hell.  However, it was only after going back to Australia after about 10 years that it was obvious the place was racist because I was used to the standards here in Canada.

That's what prompted me to go on this board, to highlight my disgust with the backwardness I see in Australia when it comes to social progress.  After some 12 years being away from Australia, in many ways I actually see Australia regressing as far as social progress is concerned.  Much progress has been made in N.America and I have analyzed what efforts N.Americans have done to enable social progress.  I see none of those effort being made in Australia which is why I created these racism threads because Australians ARE ignorant and live in denial when it comes to racism (please read my links on page 6 of this thread).

But after getting the denial treatment on these boards, I no longer defend Australia or Australians any more when asked about racism.  What can I say?  I have to say that Australians are racist based purely on the discussions on these boards.

Why?  Because if I am a visible minority, and I tell a white Australian that I am marginalized, and I give examples of how I am marginalized, and to be solution-oriented rather than problem-oriented I give my suggestions for improvement; then if I receive responses of denial, or comments that I'm just self-piteous, or blatantly racist comments in the same sentence as denials of racism; then I am left to conclude that white Australians are in fact unrepentently racist who don't deserve to be defended by a visible minority.

I came to these boards, thinking that white Australians are generally good people, and that the problem of endemic racism was merely a problem of ignorance.  You don't have the benefit of techniques used elsewhere in the world that have effectively eradicated racism from culture.  I naively thought that if I told you what these techniques were (such as purposeful and mainstream representation of minorities in mass media, not just token background roles) that the goodness of white Australians would evolve those ideas.  However, now I know better.  I know that the reason why racism is endemic in Australia is not only because of ignorance, but of willful denial, even in (evidently) the face of global condemnation.

The rest of the world actually has no problems believing white Australians are racist, so you really have to be careful what you say on a public forum because the stubborn denial of people here is sending a strong message to the world.  So if you don't care what the world thinks, then wear the badge of racism proudly because that's how the world sees you right now.

I think living geographically separated from the rest of the world has affected the collective Australian mindset, because some of you don't seem to realize (and I'm giving you a BIG hint) that it only takes a google search or a link to this thread to showcase Australian racism.  I suppose you imagine you're doing a good job debating against the fact, but you're only confirming racism by denying what is already bloody obvious to the rest of the world.

I might want to add that I have more or less given up any hope of expecting any change from white Australians, so my motivations for continuing this thread have changed.

I'm actually amused by the fact that some of you are still in denial - even after showing you the opinions of the United Nations, many intellectuals and general global opinion (see my links throughout this thread which use the word "denial" time and time again to describe racists in Australia).  You're like the Aum Supreme Truth, suicide bombers who dream of 99 virgins or Branch Davidians.  No matter how much evidence I show you, it has no effect whatsoever.  I honestly find the phenomena extremely intellectually compelling.  There is a link to an essay on page 6 of this thread that explains this, but nevertheless to witness what I assume are Australian political intellectuals actually doing it is curious.

Here is an excerpt:

The denial of theft, the denial of rape, the denial of history - and here is a Britannica sized digest alone. The denial of a genocide based on numbers alone holds no water as a position, the first guess at an Aboriginal population of 300,000 was an error of magnitude by a factor of ten. New anthropological work in eastern Australia suggests an indigenous population at "contact" of not less than one million, perhaps even three to five million. Yet in 1901, at the birth of this federation, only some 60,000 indigenous people had survived. Were we South Africa's and Germany's test tube?


PERCEPTIONS OF AUSTRALIA
As I said, the problem with people overseas is that they have bought the image that Australia is 'naturally' represented by men with white faces who speak English as a first language. For them the 'Aborigines' are just an 'unreal' phantom figure on another planet.

Australia is the success story! Britain may have lost India but they did very well with Australia. How lucky they were to find and colonise an empty continent. That image is one which is continually projected by those who understand the importance of managing perceptions. The Olympic Games in 2000 will promote that image.

But, as you know, First Peoples are very much of this planet and of this country. There is a degree of shock involved for the mind when they become 'real' and all sorts of defence mechanism take over. It is, i imagine, similar to the reaction to news of what the Nazis did to Jewish people. It can't be true, is the first response.

But water wears away rock.

link:
http://sisis.nativeweb.org/2000/jimbruce.html

"'Naturally' represented by men with white faces".  Hmm.. isn't that the first thing I said about Australian billboards/advertisements in the very first post I made on this board?  ::)

Hey here's that Qantas ad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt6h7Jwmb5c

No doubt Australians were very proud of this advert that showcases their country.  Me?  The first thing I thought was: hey it's an Aryan recruitment video!  Notice how Aboriginals are shown in the same way as African jump dancers (ie. not part of the group of kids representing the "true" Australia).  Notice also the comments on the video which show quite clearly I am not the only one to notice the lack of minority representation (and I mean upfront obvious representation, not background fillers).

I loved the thematic use of white kids learning the oogoo boogoo ways of "primitive" African/Asian cultures.  It was so hilarious in its 18th century sincere portrayal of primitive non-white cultures who supposedly want to travel by Qantas to see the "modern and sophisticated" ways of white Australians.

So be proud of that video white Australians!  It's the reason why the world thinks you're racist.  When were those videos made?  1982 or something?  What's that?  They were made in the 21st century?  :o  ;D

And in a stunning reversal of its previous xenophobic ad, Qantas has released this in 2009:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEbSIDeT144

The 2009 version is such a 180 degree about-turn, with the primary character being an Aboriginal and showing very front-and-centre portrayals of other visible minorities, that one is left to imagine that someone in marketing is actually paying attention to the blogs out there.

I am now left wondering whether the Hey Hey skit will have a similar accelerative effect on the general Australian psyche in spite of the denial of the forumners here.  That must be a good thing.

fakir wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 6:26am:

And in a stunning reversal of its previous xenophobic ad, Qantas has released this in 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEbSIDeT144 The 2009 version is such a 180 degree about-turn, with the primary character being an Aboriginal and showing very front-and-centre portrayals of other visible minorities, that one is left to imagine that someone in marketing is actually paying attention to the blogs out there. I am now left wondering whether the Hey Hey skit will have a similar accelerative effect on the general Australian psyche in spite of the denial of the forumners here.  That must be a good thing.

Catching up with the times now are we cryboy ;D

Us Australians have a remarkable capacity to rapidly transform our society... Thanks to those who love their country more than they hate themselves.

fakir - you're a complete apologetic leftard sook.
probably drink LLLllllllaaaaaattttaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeesssssss too.

Quote:

None of you are qualified to say the skit wasn't racist.  Only black people are, and they all unanimously condemn the skit.

No, they dont, thats a lie.I showed you an example yesterday where some Aboriginal friends of mine said it wasn't racist.
I can't be bothered reading all your dribble but I notice you still havn't answered my questions
Are you white?
Have you ever been to another country?
Because the way you are carrying on I doubt you've had any exposure what so ever with other countries.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 8:40am:

fakir - you're a complete apologetic leftard sook. probably drink LLLllllllaaaaaattttaaaaaaeeeeeeeeeesssssss too.

LOL. What do you say about the political affiliation of people who drink green tea?  

By the way for the record, I did not agree that the skit was racist. Read my posts. The only reason that it was perceived to be racist was Harry Connick Jnr and his lack of appreciation of Australian Humour..

helian,


Quote:

I've never heard of any country where minorities,  particularly when they first arrive en masse, aren't feared to some degree...

I'm not sure if this is your intent, but it seems to me like you're suggesting racial abuse in Australia is just a teething problem of sorts that people anywhere in the world would go through as they settle into a strange location.

Might I remind you that Chinese (ie. those who are quite visibly Asians) have been here since the early goldrush days, and yet till this day, they often find themselves the targets of racial abuse? This fact alone vindicates fakir's position that Australia is an inherently racist country. Even 150 years after they first arrived, Asians are still being harassed and abused for being different.

fakir,


Quote:

I am addressing you and abu_rashid in this post, because both of you keep insisting the skit wasn't racist. None of you are qualified to say the skit wasn't racist.  Only black people are...

Last time I checked, Harry Connick Jnr. wasn't black, and he's the one who found it offensive. Racism cannot purely be defined as someone taking offense at something, since various people will take offense at different things. In my understanding racism also must involve some intent on the part of the perpetrator, and it also should involve some degree of derogatory action, which the skit did not.

But on that point, I did think the cartoon drawn up during the show about Kamahl was racist, since it had nothing to do with the skit, and was obviously just included because he's also black.


Quote:

Only black people are, and they all unanimously condemn the skit... ...Australians of all colour seem to think the skit is not offensive

Bit of a contradiction there isn't it? Do blacks unanimously find it offensive? Or do black Australians at least not find it offensive?

wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 8:52am:

I can't be bothered reading all your dribble but I notice you still havn't answered my questions Are you white? Have you ever been to another country? Because the way you are carrying on I doubt you've had any exposure what so ever with other countries.

Still haven't answered your question?  The answers to your questions are smack in your face clear as day if you had bothered to read this thread.  So I can't be bothered answering your question.  ::)

As for black people not being offended, are you daft?  Have you seen the Hey Hey skit, or are you just purposely being stupid?  I don't know what you saw, but the Hey Hey skit seemed to be making fun of Africans not Aboriginals.   ::)

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 7:01am:

fakir wrote on Oct 14th, 2009 at 6:26am: And in a stunning reversal of its previous xenophobic ad, Qantas has released this in 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEbSIDeT144 The 2009 version is such a 180 degree about-turn, with the primary character being an Aboriginal and showing very front-and-centre portrayals of other visible minorities, that one is left to imagine that someone in marketing is actually paying attention to the blogs out there. I am now left wondering whether the Hey Hey skit will have a similar accelerative effect on the general Australian psyche in spite of the denial of the forumners here.  That must be a good thing. Catching up with the times now are we cryboy ;D Us Australians have a remarkable capacity to rapidly transform our society... Thanks to those who love their country more than they hate themselves.

Do you imagine I wasn't aware of the 2009 ad before I posted the first Aryan Airways ad?  It's the 21st Century and the fact that Qantas could even conceive producing such a xenophobic advertisement within the last 9 years shows that Australians are backward (Western societies shown as modern, Asian/African people shown as primitive/superstitious).  So being 30 or more years behind the rest of the world is "rapid" to you?   ;D  I agree that is certainly remarkable but not for the reasons you think!

I noticed the lot of you conveniently ignored the article about Australian denial of racism?  I'm still waiting for someone to tackle that one.

The Qantas ad was very well produced.  It's a lot better looking than other airlines for sure, but it is unintentionally funny.

muso wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 10:52am:

LOL. What do you say about the political affiliation of people who drink green tea?   By the way for the record, I did not agree that the skit was racist. Read my posts. The only reason that it was perceived to be racist was Harry Connick Jnr and his lack of appreciation of Australian Humour..

and for the record - you're not qualified to decide whether the skit was racist.  Are Australians so lazy you can't even google this topic?  Black people in America condemn the skit and thank Harry Connick Jr for standing up to the racist skit.  It's "perceived" as racist because the people being parodied are offended!

Here's a bone!:
http://www.michaeljacksonsecrets.com/jackson-brothers-thank-harry-connick-jr-for-taking-a-stance-on-hey-hey-its-saturday.html

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 11:20am:

But on that point, I did think the cartoon drawn up during the show about Kamahl was racist, since it had nothing to do with the skit, and was obviously just included because he's also black.

Kamahl obviously objected to it afterwards, but at the time, I thought it was just a good natured and nostalgic recollection of Kamahl.

In the years watching Hey Hey, I never interpreted his "Why are people so unkind" line as being concerned about racism. If anything I thought they were taking the piss like just about every other entertainer that appeared on there, including Wilbur and Red. All other regulars on Hey Hey fell got the same kind of treatment. Entertainers propagate stereotypes for themselves. They are things that get them noticed, and actually get them work. In the case of Kamahl, even his skin colour was a marketable part of his personal stereotypical image.

- but that's not racism.

fakir,


Quote:

Here's a bone!: http://www.michaeljacksonsecrets.com/jackson-brothers-thank-harry-connick-jr-for...

Here's a quote from Michael Jackson's long time friend from that article, regarding whether the skit was racist or not:


Quote:

However, Stacy Brown refrained from deaming the Jackson Jive as “racist,” saying, “You can’t call them racist for not knowing the history of African-Americans,” he said.

why did kamahl keep appearing there if he did not like it?

he was given BIG wraps, if i remember correctly.
beautiful voice, it now seems mated to a cowardly heart

And look how racists the French are!!! Oh my gawd!!!!


http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/fashion/vogue-paris-in-hot-water-over-blackface-model-20091014-gwe5.html


Must be because of this:



abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2009 at 1:38pm:

Quote: unsurprising, given all the muslims there now... [quote]France has the best quality of life out of Europe's biggest countries

France has the highest % of Muslims in all of Europe  ;D[/quote]



:P

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 12:55pm:

why did kamahl keep appearing there if he did not like it? he was given BIG wraps, if i remember correctly. beautiful voice, it now seems mated to a cowardly heart

The main thing about Kamahl is that his music is very 'middle of the road'. It's granny-type music. That's a good enough reason to take the piss. The fact that he's a spectacular shade of black actually works in his favour. If he was a relatively bland anglo saxon singing granny music, he wouldn't be quite so memorable. It's not enough to have a good singing voice. In show business it's all about image - the stronger the better.

Even a negative image works, as Susan Boyle (The singing bogan from Scotland) amply demonstrated recently.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 12:44pm:

However, Stacy Brown refrained from deaming the Jackson Jive as “racist,” saying, “You can’t call them racist for not knowing the history of African-Americans,” he said.

he's right.  What makes it racist is Aussies defending it after they've been told it is racist.  But you know, I wrote that in red 4 times, and I think I've repeated it 3 or 4 times after that, and I keep repeating it until I'm bored to death trying to tell you all this.

But I suppose that's a good strategy for getting me to give up!  :P

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 12:55pm:

why did kamahl keep appearing there if he did not like it? he was given BIG wraps, if i remember correctly. beautiful voice, it now seems mated to a cowardly heart

same reason why minorities stay in Australia after experiencing racist attacks I suppose.  Your life is what it is, and sometimes you make the best of it.

I would call it more cowardly to have sh!t shoved in your face and then defend the people who shoved it in your face; and yet some of you think I am self-piteous for speaking out against the racism perpetrated by white Australians.  How's that for reverse logic?  Then again you are from "down under".  :o

fakir wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 8:46am:

I would call it more cowardly to have sh!t shoved in your face and then defend the people who shoved it in your face; and yet some of you think I am self-piteous for speaking out against the racism perpetrated by white Australians.  How's that for reverse logic?  Then again you are from "down under".  :o

Actually that in itself is a very racist remark, and not a very informed remark at that.  Even the performers in this case were not predominately white anglosaxon Australians. White Australians do not have a monopoly on racism.  All people have their prejudices.

You apparently have a prejudice against white Australians yourself.

I can only go on experience elsewhere. The attitude of French ex-pats in Africa disgusted me. The blatant racism in the UK was just as bad.

My experience in Australia is that we are a much more cosmopolitan lot. I have met people of all ethnicities in Australia and overseas. When I was in Turkey, I was good friends with a Turkish Australian who has a good job as a translator. He's as ocker as they come. He obviously didn't have many problems with white Australians - he married one.

Generally if people are outgoing, they will be welcomed into Australian society. OK - there might be some disturbing signs in Sydney with racial disharmony, but they're crazy bastards in the cities. (maybe that's some of my own prejudice showing through). I can never get out of there quick enough, but the food is good in Chinatown - I'll give them that.

Out here in the country, we tend to accept people for what they say and do - not for the colour of their skin.

That latest Qantas ad - the one that starts with the aboriginal boy singing, sends shivers down my spine. He has a beautiful voice. Makes you proud to be Australian.

muso - the latest 2009 ad from Qantas is definitely one to be proud of.  It's creative, beautiful and most importantly inclusive.

That said, I hate Qantas because they ripped me off $2500 because of their sneaky refund policies that made it impractical for me to actually use the refund (which resulted in me having to pay an additional $2500 even though I had $2500 as a "credit").  That's another story.

My experiences is that country folk are the worst racists because they are the most xenophobic - they treat minorities like they're from another planet (my experience and the experience of minorities I know from the country-side).  Aussie city-dwellers on the other hand tend to shout racist remarks from their cars and to hold racial riots.  Which is worse?  It's a toss-up.

Look - admittedly I'm holding Australians to the highest international standards, which right now in my experience is the Canadian standard.  Why would I champion this cause somewhere worse like say Somalia?  Do you think the wicked people in Somalia are open to reason and frequent internet forums?  ;D  No, but I expect to be able to reason with decent and civilized Australians.

Quote:

he's right.  What makes it racist is Aussies defending it after they've been told it is racist.  But you know, I wrote that in red 4 times, and I think I've repeated it 3 or 4 times after that, and I keep repeating it until I'm bored to death trying to tell you all this.

But it's made abundantly clear that the skit in itself isn't racist. Whatever cultural hang-ups America has, is only relevant to their media and their society, not ours. I'm sure if we dug deep enough all around the world, we could find someone somewhere to be offended with every single comedy skit ever produced. NEWSFLASH: American society and culture is not the global society and culture, even though they'd like to think it is.

Quote:

Do you think the wicked people in Somalia are open to reason and frequent internet forums?

Look who's racist now... What's your problem with Somalis??? Why are you claiming them to be wicked racist people??

fakir -
Quote:

What makes it racist is Aussies defending it after they've been told it is racist

who officially decided anything is racist ?

so, being told anything is racist makes it so ??

whats wrong with racism ?? perfectly normal, correct and natural.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 10:25am:

whats wrong with racism ?? perfectly normal, correct and natural.

You must never have experienced racism, but that's not the point.

Doing a "blackface" routine is about as racist as doing drag is sexist. Blackface has its own vaudeville roots - it wasn't just a send-up of blacks. It was a way for whites to do jazz and get away with it.

Australia can be a very racist country, but this doesn't condemn that sketch.

People have become offended at the very idea of racism even if it isn't implicitly racist. Putting it on the news is just lazy. We're at war, and we're in a global financial crisis. You-Tube fads have made the news even dumber and more irrelevant.

And saying this does not prove that I, as an Australian, am more racist than how "the rest of the world" wants me to be.

Australia, in my opinion, fears Muslims much more than blacks - with the exception of Aboriginals. We don't seem to mind black people from other countries. There isn't a real fear here of black Americans, for example, or Africans.

Is Gilbert & Sulivan's Mikado racist because whites dressed up as "orientals"?

Was Michael Jackson racist because he dressed up as "white"?

First of all, I said the "wicked people in Somalia" - I did not say "all Somalis are wicked", I'm talking about the perpetrators of genocide in Somalia hence "wicked people in Somalia".  Sheesh.

Second of all, you must realize that the skit was merely a segue into the broader topic of endemic racism in Australia.  Yes the skit is trivial on the grander stage.  But it's the small little things that highlight a big problem - the fact that no-one at the time even felt it was racist, and second that people keep defending it.

Since the skit was too "light" for some of you, then perhaps this might highlight racism a bit more for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnnAWxvLPQc&feature=channel

The next clip is FUNNY as hell.  One thing I tell anyone, is Australian humour is the funniest in the world.  Australian pisstake is funny when Australians make fun of themselves (hey look, there's that "deny" word again!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqmnSQj_6Bk&feature=channel

But the "Kevin Rudd" character and his habit of skirting around the subject is a caricature of most people who have replied to this thread.

One thing for sure is: I'm not making it up when I say that Australians have a reputation around the world as a racist nation.  The question is: do you want to perpetuate that reputation?  Because your replies to this thread are doing a pretty good job!  ;D

Big Donger wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 1:30pm:

People have become offended at the very idea of racism even if it isn't implicitly racist. Putting it on the news is just lazy. We're at war, and we're in a global financial crisis. You-Tube fads have made the news even dumber and more irrelevant. .. Is Gilbert & Sulivan's Mikado racist because whites dressed up as "orientals"? Was Michael Jackson racist because he dressed up as "white"?

dude - speaking of lazy, please go back and read through this thread before bringing up old conversations.  It's going to be very tiresome regurgitating 9 pages over and over for the lazy people.  Hint: the same thing is not racist to all people because of HISTORY.  ::)

Quote:

First of all, I said the "wicked people in Somalia" - I did not say "all Somalis are wicked", I'm talking about the perpetrators of genocide in Somalia hence "wicked people in Somalia".  Sheesh

What genocide in Somalia??? Sure you don't mean Rwanda maybe?? doesn't matter all those black Africans are the same right??


Quote:

Hint: the same thing is not racist to all people because of HISTORY.

Right... and since we don't have a history in our country of lynching and oppressing blacks like America does, therefore it's not racist here. The real stupid thing about it was "hey hey" having a Yank on their show to make a racist out of a face-painter.

I couldn't give a damn what America feels guilty about... that's their business, let them atone for their own racist past, not export it to the rest of the world as an enforced global feeling of guilt. I reocgnise fully that such a skit wouldn't be appropriate where Harry comes from, but that's nothing to do with Australia. Sorry.

But for the record fakir I do sympathise with you as having been an Aussie from Asian background, since I recognise how racist Australians can be, especially against Asian-background people.

Don't overdo it though on this one. Stick with the issues that really are racist, not just in one country's historical context.

Quote:

whats wrong with racism ?? perfectly normal, correct and natural.

You're a disgrace to humanity.

I hope some big bad maori dude smacks some sense into you one day.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 10:25am:

whats wrong with racism ??

Damn it Sprint. You seriously need to start eating Vegemite every morning on your toast. Kiwis have an inherent Selenium deficiency that affects the brain and they say dumb things in an almost incomprehensible accent.

Was that racist? Oh sorry, but you did say it was ok?  :P

Anyway, Vegemite will fix your Selenium deficiency.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

What genocide in Somalia??? Sure you don't mean Rwanda maybe?? doesn't matter all those black Africans are the same right??

okay my bad.  I was actually talking about Sudan.  I got mixed up with Somalia because of the pirate attacks.


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 3:51pm:

Right... and since we don't have a history in our country of lynching and oppressing blacks like America does, therefore it's not racist here. The real stupid thing about it was "hey hey" having a Yank on their show to make a racist out of a face-painter.

you're kidding right?????   :o

At first contact the numbers of Aboriginals numbered about 3 million.  In 1901, the number of Aboriginals were 60,000.  It is the most successfully executed genocide in modern history, and you know why?  Because the "blacks" of Australia aren't up in arms about it!  The event has been wiped out of common history books.  We even have Aboriginals defending the damn Hey Hey skit, that's how successful the genocide has been!

If you think genocide is less oppressive than slavery, I think I understand why Australians don't think there's a problem.

Source:
http://sisis.nativeweb.org/2000/jimbruce.html

http://www.janesoceania.com/australia_europeans/aboriginals_1906.jpg

So you're right, especially because I've already said the same thing many pages ago: the skit is NOTHING.  The skit is merely the bump on the skin hiding a malignant cancer, and the fact that all the Australians on this thread keep focusing on it instead of the real problem is astounding.

fakir wrote on Oct 14^th, 2009 at 11:33am:

So being 30 or more years behind the rest of the world is "rapid" to you?   ;D  I agree that is certainly remarkable but not for the reasons you think!

You've got to wonder why Canada waited to follow Australia's lead in apologising for those crimes committed against indigenous peoples... (Is it true colonial Canadians used to douse clothes and blankets with the measles virus before distributing them to natives to hasten the extinction of the indigenous races?).

I read those people south of the border are just beginning to gear up to apologise for slavery.

When do you think the Spanish and Portuguese will apologise to South American peoples for atrocities committed by those nations. Or the English for what was done to the Irish... Or the British for Imperial atrocities... They're probably waiting to see how it all pans out in Australia first.

Guess they're all a bit behind the times, eh cryboy.

I am waiting for the descendants of the Aztecs to apologise for centuries of human sacrifice. ANd the heirs of black African chiefs selling their own people to slave traders.

And, of course, black Americans to apologise for rap 'music' and their appaling taste in leasure wear.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2009 at 10:22pm:

You've got to wonder why Canada waited to follow Australia's lead in apologising for those crimes committed against indigenous peoples... (Is it true colonial Canadians used to douse clothes and blankets with the measles virus before distributing them to natives to hasten the extinction of the indigenous races?).

Okay, get your facts right before you toot your own horn.

The Canadian government has made peace with the First Nations people decades ago.  What the Canadian government did a few years ago is apologize to Chinese migrants who were unfairly taxed in the early 20th century, and the gov't apologized and compensated every affected family.  The UN lauds Canada for what they do for the First Nations people - they even have their own province/territory which they completely govern themselves.  No other nation on earth has done the same for displaced indigenous people.

So it's actually a joke that you think Australia is ahead of Canada.  It's WAAAAAAAYYYY behind.  And that's the UN opinion, not mine.

muso -
Quote:

You seriously need to start eating Vegemite every morning on your toast. Kiwis have an inherent Selenium deficiency that affects the brain and they say dumb things in an almost incomprehensible accent. Was that racist? Oh sorry, but you did say it was ok?

hahahahah - very good !!
hey, wait a sec, I am meant to claim "offended" and make you silent !!

Nah, give it heaps.

fyi abu - that's the main reason kiwis come over here. cause of the big ugly knuckle dragging violent blacks.

karnal - i have experienced rasism against me here and in new zealand.
no, i did not sook my way home or sue.

Quote:

fyi abu - that's the main reason kiwis come over here. cause of the big ugly knuckle dragging violent blacks.

Well according to your own pronouncements it's only natural, so you rightfully deserve it. And on that I agree with you.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 16^th, 2009 at 8:43am:

muso - [quote] karnal - i have experienced rasism against me here and in new zealand. no, i did not sook my way home or sue.

I don't think you understand what racism is, SC.  Digging at someone else's race or culture isn't necessarily racism.

Believing others to be racially inferior, and lesser people because of their race, is racism. The Nazis, as you know, had a whole ideology about racism. This was not normal, natural, or correct - it was political.

The "natural," or biological element to racism comes from eugenics, a popular anthropogical movement of the early 1900s. Eugenics was the scientific justification to root out black genes in Australia: quadroons, half-castes, etc. Australia had a racial policy to remove "half-castes" from their Aboriginal parents so that Aboriginals would eventually be "bred out". This was government policy until the late 1960s, and still happened in some cases until the 1980s. Children were systematically removed from their parents for no other reason than being Aboriginal.

Being called skippy or Pakeha is hardly racism.

Dressing up in black makeup is not racism either - UNLESS it has a more sinister purpose.

Big Donger wrote on Oct 16^th, 2009 at 10:40am:

I don't think you understand what racism is, SC.  Digging at someone else's race or culture isn't necessarily racism. Believing others to be racially inferior, and lesser people because of their race, is racism. The Nazis, as you know, had a whole ideology about racism. This was not normal, natural, or correct - it was political. The "natural," or biological element to racism comes from eugenics, a popular anthropogical movement of the early 1900s. Eugenics was the scientific justification to root out black genes in Australia: quadroons, half-castes, etc. Australia had a racial policy to remove "half-castes" from their Aboriginal parents so that Aboriginals would eventually be "bred out". This was government policy until the late 1960s, and still happened in some cases until the 1980s. Children were systematically removed from their parents for no other reason than being Aboriginal. Being called skippy or Pakeha is hardly racism. Dressing up in black makeup is not racism either - UNLESS it has a more sinister purpose.

You're wrong.  If you have a bunch of yahoos chanting a racist name at you, they may mean it as a joke.  They may very well know in their hearts that you're smarter than them.  But you as the victim want to go about your life without feeling different, without being harassed.

And you don't get it, because you've never experienced it.  The black face skit was racist, because it again dredges up that black people are different.  Black people don't want to be constantly reminded that they're black, they just want to live and fit in like the rest of us.

Just because those doctors didn't intend it to be racist, doesn't mean it isn't racist.  What has frustrated me always on these boards is white people who self-righteously want to dictate to marginalized minorities what is "racist" or not.  I have never met a marginalized white person to the extent that other races like Africans or Asians have suffered under white people.  There's just no history to it.

And you will never understand, because I've read countless times how people say "I'm not offended if someone paints their face white".  Yeah - but you haven't experienced the same things as other races.

It's like me calling someone a retard, who has a brother who has Downs Syndrome.  Am I offended if someone calls me retard?  No, but doesn't mean that someone else isn't because of their circumstances.  What do you white people not understand about this?

And another thing is where you're living.  You're not going to be offended about Americans thinking you're a bunch of backward troglodytes if you're in Australia on home territory.  But if you're in America, and they're all making fun of you, you will feel alone and rejected.  That's how minorities feel in Australia when you make fun of them, because they're surrounded by white people and it only takes a few white people to make "jokes" for a minority to feel alone and rejected.

What disturbs me the most about this whole thing is not the stupid skit.  It's the universal lack of empathy on the part of Australians to understand that some people are hurt by what Australians do.  That's why "I still don't call Austray-lia Hooommmee..": because I know that when I protest about how I'm treated, white Australians will just belittle my feelings.

Racism is hurtful to minorities, and we have the right to live lives without being joked about.  You want to take the pisstake out of yourselves - be my guest, but stop expecting others to accept it.

what annoys me is softcock limpwristed leftards who dream of some 60's induced utopia where everyone is loving and there is never hunger.
they think they can legally force everyone else to play along with their fantasy.

bugger off, grow up, go back to your "sheltered life"

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 17^th, 2009 at 11:31am:

what annoys me is softcock limpwristed leftards who dream of some 60's induced utopia where everyone is loving and there is never hunger. they think they can legally force everyone else to play along with their fantasy. bugger off, grow up, go back to your "sheltered life"

Sprint, you need to drag yourself into the 21st century. Racism is not ok, and such a view is shared by all political affiliations. Even hardliner rightwingers like Jeff Kennet took part in the Australian Rally against Racism back in 1998. Numerous right wing politicians have stood up against racism through the years.

Anti-discrimination is enshrined in law as evidenced by numerous examples of state and commonwealth legislation, starting with the NSW Anti-Discrimination Act which was enacted in 1977. This legislation remained in force all the time that Liberals and the ALP governed the country.

Why? - because it's basic human decency and it's civilised behaviour to denounce racism. Anybody who thinks that it's ok to discriminate on the basis of the colour of a person's skin is living in the dark distant past.

Australia is one of many signatories to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which was first adopted in Decmeber 1948.

The Charter "reaffirmed faith in fundamental human rights, and dignity and worth of the human person" and committed all member states to promote "universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion"

Well I have a dinner party to attend, so I'll go back to my sheltered life now, and you can go back to your cave.

fakir wrote on Oct 17^th, 2009 at 3:43am:

[quote author=Karnal link=1254947330/135#144 date=1255653657] Black people don't want to be constantly reminded that they're black, they just want to live and fit in like the rest of us.

But that's it. No one's saying black people ARE different. And no one's saying they have to fit in or live like the rest of "us" either.

The skit was silly - it was tasteless. But I got the opposite point to you. I don't see Australians' lack of fuss about the skit as proving Australia's implicit racism - Pauline Hanson was proof enough of that - I see it as proof of Australians' willingness to move on. Our lack of preciousness isn't insensitivity, it shows that we're accepting enough of others to include them in our humour, even if it's cheesy, dumbed-down, Hey Hey It's Saturday humour. It's not funny, but what on that show is?

You're right - it IS pretty difficult to find oppressed whites. Racism exists. You only have to look at the whole boat people thing to understand that Australians have a deep-seated fear of being invaded by Asian hoards from the north, even if the "hoards" are desperate, war-torn families coming over to make a life for themselves.

There's real racism, and there's manufactured, tabloid racism (not even including racism propagated by the tabloids!). The blackface skit was part of the latter.

Sprintcyclist above comes across as bigoted and insensitive, but he may well be right. We've come to neuter ourselves so that we can't even discuss cultural nuances or differences anymore. We AREN'T all the same.

I prefer the pre-internet/globalisation days where what local cultures and communities did mattered. Now we desperately try to remove any taint of provincialism - we try so hard to be sophisticated, global citizens. We've come to reduce cultural differences down to mere consumerism: food, ethnic comedians (where it's okay to laugh because we're laughing WITH them, not at them), and tourism (or travel, as sophisticates prefer).

We're not supposed to reduce someone's behaviour down to the fact that they're German, or Jewish, or Aboriginal. Actually, it's okay to hate the germans. Everybody does. Or Americans. Or the English if you live in Europe.

Australia is in the strange situation of sharing no external borders with another country, and this isolates us. However, we are almost genuinely multicultural now (in the big cities). There's no favours anymore. And this is why race has become a lesser deal.

We're not living in the 60s anymore.

"Minorities" need to go into analysis and deal with their inferiority complexes. They obviously feel completely justified in this feeling of guilt and inferiority and at the same time they are completely unable to ovecome that crushing feeling. Because they cannot face it, they wish to hush it up, hoping it will go away.

First and foremost they hate each other, evidenced by the long history of natives mistreating, degrading, abusing natives. Everywhere. Wife burning, a caste system , foot binding, domestic slavery, cannibalism, bones through noses, woodoo, sloth, stagnation, squalor, cruelty  and all the rest of it cannot be hushed up. And if they had not been colonised they would still be at  it. "Post-colonoal liberation" to many of them has meant nothing more than a return to all that despicable crap.

In their embarrassment all they can do is shout "Shut up!"

fakir wrote on Oct 16^th, 2009 at 3:57am:

Okay, get your facts right before you toot your own horn. The Canadian government has made peace with the First Nations people decades ago.  What the Canadian government did a few years ago is apologize to Chinese migrants who were unfairly taxed in the early 20th century, and the gov't apologized and compensated every affected family.  The UN lauds Canada for what they do for the First Nations people - they even have their own province/territory which they completely govern themselves.  No other nation on earth has done the same for displaced indigenous people. So it's actually a joke that you think Australia is ahead of Canada.  It's WAAAAAAAYYYY behind.  And that's the UN opinion, not mine.

Would that the Chinese do so much for the Tibetans...

Nunavut, a frozen, empty wasteland, apparently... Very generous  ::)
Do you reckon the Canucks are hoping that it'll shut 'em up?

yes, canada is very french/canadian.
they have a net immigrantion of one every 2 minutes.
anyone is welcome, front doors open.
within 12 years the fragile canadian culture will be gone.

it will have no identity.

Yawn - and as the French (including French Canadians) say "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

Talk to the hand.

Quote:

within 12 years the fragile canadian culture will be gone. it will have no identity.

Its fragile for a reason. Australia, N.Z, Canada and U,S don't really have cultures. They are proto-cultures still forming. This is a simple fact you just can't deny no matter how much it pains you.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 17^th, 2009 at 11:36pm:

Quote: within 12 years the fragile canadian culture will be gone. it will have no identity. Its fragile for a reason. Australia, N.Z, Canada and U,S don't really have cultures. They are proto-cultures still forming. This is a simple fact you just can't deny no matter how much it pains you.

Proto-cultures, Abu?

I think the lesson inherent to this entire situation is very clear; we need to ramp up the amount of racism in our media to make it even more undesirable for 'colored' people the world over to want to come here.

What is culture anyway, if you ask me many cultures suck and those cultures that do suck, should keep it in their own third world sh*tholes. Religion is not a culture.

helian, they are cultures in formation. They have not yet really coalesced into "cultures proper". A culture requires a certain degree of homogeneity that those countries listed don't really have yet. The U.S is probably the closest to it, but even she has not yet properly settled.

The massive influx of new cultures also slows down that process, so most of those countries will continue for the forseeable future, to remain in the proto-cultural stage, until a large enough % of the country coalesces into a single culture. After that point, even the influx of new cultures will not be as much of a problem.

Now all the Anglos need to accept is that the primarily Anglo nature of these nations is finished. Either integrate yourselves into the new emerging culture or you're going to be swept away into the past as an ugly and forgettable part of these countries' future cultures.

Those Anglos who are calling for minorities to artificially integrate are in fact the obstacles to national harmony and the settling of the Australian culture. They want to assert the Angloness of the future culture to the detriment of all other contributors... a situation that is unworkable, sorry.

If you add poo to fine wine, it becomes poo.

I would look at it more like if you add cordial to plain water, then it's flavour is enhanced....

I guess it's all how you look at it, isn't it.

If you're a racist filthmonger, then of course you'd consider your own culture superior and all others you'd equate with faeces....

It is the Angloness (the particular cultural, legal, political institution and customs) of these countries that made them attractive to the incoming other cultures in the first place. Nothing else. Your water and cordial analogy is false.

Postwar immigration is fundamentally different from the pre-war patterns. Integration and assimilationhave been increasingly replaced by multiculturalism.

Quote:

Now all the Anglos need to accept is that the primarily Anglo nature of these nations is finished.

Nonsense. These are fundamentally Anglo countries with increasingly multiracial populations. And if/when their Anglo nature changes, they will go to the dogs, like all the other countries that had come under British infuence but moved away, or against it.

The only successful ex-colonies are the ones that retained as much of their British inheritance as possible. There are no successful ex-colonies of France, Belgium, Germany, Russia, Italy, Portugal, Spain.

Quote:

It is the Angloness (the particular cultural, legal, political institution and customs) of these countries that made them attractive to the incoming other cultures in the first place.

Most people come for the economic opportunities and little else, don't fool yourself.


Quote:

Your water and cordial analogy is false.

So you think that incoming cultures do not add to the quality of Australian culture, but just feed off it instead?


Quote:

Postwar immigration is fundamentally different from the pre-war patterns.

Which war??


Quote:

Integration and assimilationhave been increasingly replaced by multiculturalism.

Forced integration and assimilation is just a ridiculous idea. Either you let people come in and be themselves (within the law of course) or you don't let them in, unless they pass a "same as us" test...


Quote:

And if/when their Anglo nature changes, they will go to the dogs, like all the other countries that had come under British infuence but moved away, or against it. The only successful ex-colonies are the ones that retained as much of their British inheritance as possible. There are no successful ex-colonies of France, Belgium, Germany, Russia, Italy, Portugal, Spain.

We've already been over this before. Firstly you need to make the distinction between countries that were occupied and those which were actually fully colonised. Most of the French, Belgian, German, Italian colonies were not really colonised, but were occupied. The small colony populations were either too insignificant to have any effect on the country, or were evacuated at the end of the colonial period. The Spanish were the only other real colonisers, and if we compare the success of their colonies with the British colonies, they're about on par with the difference between England and Spain...

So with this in mind, the English colonies are about the only colonies left in the equation, hence the reason you can point to them. Their fortune matches that of the mother country, since they were largely dependant upon her anyway for a long time after the colonial era finished.

As for Russia, don't know how they got in there. They didn't colonise anything. They just went into countries and obliterated and/or deported the populations, then left....

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2009 at 7:49pm:

Quote: It is the Angloness (the particular cultural, legal, political institution and customs) of these countries that made them attractive to the incoming other cultures in the first place. Most people come for the economic opportunities and little else, don't fool yourself. [quote]Your water and cordial analogy is false.

So you think that incoming cultures do not add to the quality of Australian culture, but just feed off it instead?


Quote:

Postwar immigration is fundamentally different from the pre-war patterns.

Which war??


Quote:

Integration and assimilationhave been increasingly replaced by multiculturalism.

Forced integration and assimilation is just a ridiculous idea. Either you let people come in and be themselves (within the law of course) or you don't let them in, unless they pass a "same as us" test...


Quote:

And if/when their Anglo nature changes, they will go to the dogs, like all the other countries that had come under British infuence but moved away, or against it. The only successful ex-colonies are the ones that retained as much of their British inheritance as possible. There are no successful ex-colonies of France, Belgium, Germany, Russia, Italy, Portugal, Spain.

We've already been over this before. Firstly you need to make the distinction between countries that were occupied and those which were actually fully colonised. Most of the French, Belgian, German, Italian colonies were not really colonised, but were occupied. The small colony populations were either too insignificant to have any effect on the country, or were evacuated at the end of the colonial period. The Spanish were the only other real colonisers, and if we compare the success of their colonies with the British colonies, they're about on par with the difference between England and Spain...

So with this in mind, the English colonies are about the only colonies left in the equation, hence the reason you can point to them. Their fortune matches that of the mother country, since they were largely dependant upon her anyway for a long time after the colonial era finished.

As for Russia, don't know how they got in there. They didn't colonise anything. They just went into countries and obliterated and/or deported the populations, then left....[/quote]


Without those cultural, legal, political institutions and customs there would be no economic opportunities.

Which war???

People are let in and are allowed to be themselves within the law.

The English exported their institutions. The countries that kept them are striving. The others are not.

Constitutionally speaking, Australia is an older country than all the continental countries I listed. France is up to, what, the fifth republic?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2009 at 2:00pm:

helian, they are cultures in formation. They have not yet really coalesced into "cultures proper". A culture requires a certain degree of homogeneity that those countries listed don't really have yet. The U.S is probably the closest to it, but even she has not yet properly settled.

Abu... Young culture is not proto-culture.

And by the way, all cultures are in a state of flux. I was intrigued by comments Billy Connolly made during the filming of one of his journeys through Canada. He had arrived at a Scottish-Canadian town where the townsfolk celebrate all things Scottish including the wearing of kilts. He said that when he grew up, kilt-wearing in Scotland was frowned upon as it was seen as aggressive patriotism. He also commented that he was wary of people who, in terms of culture, equated 'old' with 'good'.

Quote:

Abu... Young culture is not proto-culture.

Well I'd say rather than being a culture in it's infancy, ours is still inside the womb. It is still being formed, it is not a single whole entity just yet, nobody can deny it. I don't know why people get so defensive about it. It in no way indicates it's inferior as far as cultures go, it just says something about its current age, that's all.

And as I said, those factors like the continual influx of new cultures are still dragging it behind too, preventing it from coalescing properly.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2009 at 9:04pm:

Quote: Abu... Young culture is not proto-culture. Well I'd say rather than being a culture in it's infancy, ours is still inside the womb. It is still being formed, it is not a single whole entity just yet, nobody can deny it. I don't know why people get so defensive about it. It in no way indicates it's inferior as far as cultures go, it just says something about its current age, that's all. And as I said, those factors like the continual influx of new cultures are still dragging it behind too, preventing it from coalescing properly.

I'm not getting defensive, no one denies Australia has a young culture... It's just that I thought proto-culture refers to primates passing on skills like tool use to offspring (no joke intended ;D).

fakir wrote on Oct 17^th, 2009 at 3:43am:

Racism is hurtful to minorities, and we have the right to live lives without being joked about.  You want to take the pisstake out of yourselves - be my guest, but stop expecting others to accept it.

Comrades,

It has become clear to the central committee that those of you who have outsourced your thinking functions to the Party (which is all of you if you know what's good for you) may not have been properly conditioned prepared to recognize racism in all its ugly disguises.  This Communique is designed to help those who need to improve these skills.

Being against ObamaCare is racist.  This includes any of the 63 or so bills currently being considered by the Party.

Worrying about the deficit is racist, unless you blame it on Bush (41 or 43) or Reagan, whose fault(s) it really is.

Failure to acknowledge the reality of global warming climate change is racist.

Laughing at Chicago not receiving the 2016 Olympic Games which are rightfully hers theirs is racist.  So is hinting, suggesting, implying, imagining or thinking that this failure is Obama's fault.

Attending the 2016 games in Rio is NOT racist as long as attendance is accompanied by constant grumbling and muttering about how the games were stolen from Chicago.

Not laughing at Janeane Gawdawfulo is racist.  Unless she is being serious at the time, then it becomes racist to laugh.  Not knowing the difference is racist.

Not buying a new car from GM or Chrysler is NOT racist, unless you bought one from Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, etc, etc, instead.
~
Listening to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glen Beck, et al, is also NOT racist unless the listening is performed WITHOUT screaming and yelling of denounciations at the TV, radio or other electronic device which is broadcasting the program.  NO exception is made for driving a car, handling nitroglycerin, performing brain surgery, etc.  FAILURE to denouce is racist.

Wanting a tax cut is racist, as is remembering that Obama promised you one last year.

Praising any former President except Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton is racist.

Worrying about terrorist attacks freedom-fighter outbursts of enthusiasm of an explosive nature on American soil is racist.  Remembering 9/11 is NOT racist as long as you acknowledge it was Amerikka's fault.

Speculating about Iran creating a nuclear weapon is racist.  Unless Obama announces they have one, in which case remembering a time when Iran didn't have one is racist.

Discussing what any general or military expert says about the Afghanistan conflict unpleasantness is racist, unless it is made clear they are idiots for disagreeing with Obama.  If they disagree with Obama, that is.  But they probably will.  And that's racist.

Saying or thinking the 2009 Stimulus Plan is a failure is racist.  Mentioning the current unemployment rate is NOT racist as long as one also mentions that it would be higher without the Stimulus.

Finding old graphs about unemployment rate predictions from early 2009 is racist, unless you turn them upside down.

Wondering if all of the stuff the Party and it's paid hacks honorable surrogates say is racist is really racist IS RACIST!  The wondering, that is.

Failure to self-loathe is racist.

Not supporting the Mainstream Media is racist.  Wondering if newspapers and broadcast TV news is obsolete is racist.  Including FOX News in "broadcast TV news" is racist.

Failure to take it seriously when a TV commentator or newspaper columnist wonders if something is racist is racist.  

Attending a "Tea Party" is racist, unless it happens to really involve tea and is held in someone's home.  And nothing is said about Obama.  Unless it's in the nature of "How great he is!"  Otherwise, it's racist.

Mentioning ACORN is racist.  Unless it's to solicit funds for their legal defense fund lawsuits against various and sundry racists.

Black people African-Americans People of Color are the truest arbiters of racism.  If a Person of Color says something is racist, then it is racist.

Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas, et al, are NOT people of color.  But they are racists.

Talking of Presidential Approval Polls is racist.  Unless we get back to over 60%, then not talking of Presidential Approval Polls is racist.

Any statement concerning the size of the First Lady's butt is racist, unless accompanied by the phrase "I wish I could look that good" or the like.  Even if you're not a womyn.

Watching something else when Obama is on TV is racist.

Not knowing something is racist is racist.

Failure to read this communique is racist.

Thinking these guidelines are silly is racist.

Soren,

I really don't want to encourage you, but this whole episode is about political correctness gone mad plus a dash of American cultural imperialism.

Even some Americans are tired of excess political correctness. Does anybody else listen to the Garisson Keillor radio show on Sunday nights? There was a sketch last night in which two cowboys walked into a bar. The first cowboy asks for a whisky, and the barmaid proceeded to caution him at length about the deleterious effects of alcohol. He settles for a glass of water with a cherry.

The second cowboy asks for a tea - unsweetened, then asks if it was organically grown, and whether the workers received an equitable share, whether they sang and danced a lot, oh and did they receive free wireless internet?

;D

Excuse me while I rinse my typing fingers in phosphate free detergent for agreeing with you.

muso wrote on Oct 19^th, 2009 at 8:29am:

Soren, Excuse me while I rinse my typing fingers in phosphate free detergent for agreeing with you.

Agreeing with me is racist.

Newsweek asks the question

---

The People's Cube asks the question

---

I still think the most amusing thing about this whole affair was the subtle (unintended) admission uttered in Harry Connick Jr's self-righteous denunciation.

"We in America have been working so hard to make black people not look like buffoons."

Obviously, the intention of this statement was the implication that the U.S media used to only present a single image of black people to the American public, and the present day media has been working to amend this unwarranted and racist misconception.

But I think it goes a little deeper.

Why would you need to work hard, or at all, to make black people not look 'like buffoons'? And why did he say 'look' like buffoons? Why did he not say 'show that they are not buffoons?' Is he saying that the typical media depiction of the black man, one where the black man is almost always conscientious, studious, thoughtful and intelligent is but a mere image and not a real reflection of how black people statistically are in real life? Perish the thought Mr. Connick, but I do believe you have slipped up here!

You didn't hear it from me. The media works assiduously to make black people look good, but what do they resemble when the layered cosmetics come off?

wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 1:43am:

I still think the most amusing thing about this whole affair was the subtle (unintended) admission uttered in Harry Connick Jr's self-righteous denunciation. "We in America have been working so hard to make black people not look like buffoons." Obviously, the intention of this statement was the implication that the U.S media used to only present a single image of black people to the American public, and the present day media has been working to amend this unwarranted and racist misconception.

Yep.

http://www.badidea.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/white_xmas_al_jolson.jpg

Yanks love lecturing to other nations about the evils of racism almost as much as they love setting the standard and practising it themselves.

wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 1:43am:

"We in America have been working so hard to make black people not look like buffoons."

Yes, I noticed that too and thought it was the (unintended) gist and motivation of his "message" Fakir's bone is with the same thing -  we don't pretend hard enough.

If you made fun of rap music - the current buffoonery - that would be racist. But I suppose we are all working together for a better world when there will be 'positive stereotypes' and jokes starting "this black accountant walks into a bar...."

wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 1:43am:

Why would you need to work hard, or at all, to make black people not look 'like buffoons'? And why did he say 'look' like buffoons? Why did he not say 'show that they are not buffoons?'

It comes down to the fact that Americans are ultra sensitive about racism and political correctness. We don't need usually to microanalyse spontaneous utterances unless we have a hidden agenda.

The same thing goes for some personal relationships. As long as everything is going smoothly, unintended innuendos are overlooked. But as soon as things get strained, watch out.  The most subtle unintended inflection or figure of speech gets churned around by the female anima, randomly processed then hurled back in material form (usually crockery etc)

If that was politically incorrect, blame it on my gonads.

muso wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 7:55am:

The same thing goes for some personal relationships. As long as everything is going smoothly, unintended innuendos are overlooked. But as soon as things get strained, watch out.  The most subtle unintended inflection or figure of speech gets churned around by the female anima, randomly processed then hurled back in material form (usually crockery etc)

The cheek of it.

And all you said was that..... maybe.... she could lose a couple of pounds, tops...   And.... maybe.... a spot of electrolysis work on her top lip...   ;D

- but seriously some people on this forum are getting pretty close to the line. We do actually have legislation to protect people from racial and religious vilification, much as some may not like it.  One person came very close to being taken to court for racist remarks on this forum - something than can totally ruin your day. The legislation is slightly different in different states, but this is the excerpt from the current Queensland Act:


Quote:

Vilification on grounds of race, religion, sexuality or gender identity unlawful (1) A person must not, by a public act, incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of, a person or group of persons on the ground of the race, religion, sexuality or gender identity of the person or members of the group. (2) Subsection (1) does not make unlawful— (a) the publication of a fair report of a public act mentioned in subsection (1); or (b) the publication of material in circumstances in which the publication would be subject to a defence of absolute privilege in proceedings for defamation; or (c) a public act, done reasonably and in good faith, for academic, artistic, scientific or research purposes or for other purposes in the public interest, including public discussion or debate about, and expositions of, any act or matter.

You could claim to be an artist, I guess. Maybe a PA or an 'artist' who draws the dole perhaps.  

muso wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 11:18am:

- but seriously some people on this forum are getting pretty close to the line. We do actually have legislation to protect people from racial and religious vilification, much as some may not like it.  One person came very close to being taken to court for racist remarks on this forum - something than can totally ruin your day.

I have noticed that some posters here have a simpleton's concept of freedom of speech. No one has the right to say anything they like regardless of the content or consequences of their message.

I'm probably already on the SPLC's hate list already!

Don't know if it got posted here, but just for the record...

The clip of Harry Connick Wanker on Mad TV taking the piss out of African Americans  :o

Turns out he's just another loud mouth Yank on his high horse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vtOt5mNEZE

But it's a funny clip, anyway...