The one thing worse than denying the Gaza report
By Amira Hass, Haaretz Correspondent

On Friday an Israel Defense Forces soldier called to protest the publication of another story in Haaretz which in his words, tainted not only the troops' image but also his Sabbath day.

The soldier was referring to Gaza resident Zinat Samouni's account of how soldiers killed her 46-year-old husband and their 4-year-old son Ahmed - just two of the 29 people of the same family the army killed between January 4 and 5.

The soldier, who said he participated in the fighting, said he didn't believe the women's statements were true, though he did believe soldiers "scrawled stupid things on the walls, and that's really not right."

This is a common Israeli solution - in this case, to admit to the graffiti's existence, but downplay its seriousness or view it as everyday Israeli high jinks.

Everything else can be denied. It can always be said that photographs of civilians killed were fabricated. The Palestinians' accounts can be dismissed as lies, intrigues of Hamas, embellishment or, at best, facts taken out of context since Gazans are, after all, afraid of what Hamas would do to them if they told the truth.

Jurists will argue over the meaning of international law and will suggest contradicting analyses. Politicians will justifiably note that the United States does not have commissions of inquiry thrust upon it by the United Nations. Others will say that if Judge Richard Goldstone was reliable enough to be a prosecutor in the International Criminal Court cases on Yugoslavia and Rwanda, and his Pakistani colleague Hina Jilani was fit to participate in the international investigation into Darfur, there is no reason to suddenly cast doubt on their credentials now that they are examining Israel's deeds in Gaza. The Goldstone Commission's findings are in line with what anyone who didn't shut his or her eyes and ears to witness testimony already knows.

B'Tselem, Breaking the Silence, the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Haaretz and the international media - to Israelis, these have all fallen into the trash bin of the mendacious Palestinians. In the best case, they have become trapped in their own pure-hearted naivete, and in the worst, into collaborating with efforts to besmirch Israel and bolster prejudices against it. Like the Serbs of yore, we Israelis continue thinking it's the world that is wrong, and only we who are right.

Israel struck a civilian population that remains under its control, it didn't fulfill its obligation to distinguish between civilians and militants and used military force disproportionate with the tangible threat to its own civilians. Air Force drones and helicopters fired deadly missiles at civilians, many of them children; the Tank Corps and Navy shelled civilian neighborhoods with weapons not designed for precision strikes; soldiers received orders to fire on rescue crews; others fired on civilians carrying white flags; and others killed people in or near their homes. Troops used Gazans as human shields, soldiers detained civilians in abusive conditions, the army used white phosphorus shells in dense civilian areas and, on the eve of withdrawing, destroyed wide residential, industrial and agricultural areas.

There is only thing worse than denial - the admission that the IDF indeed acted as has been described, but that these actions are both normal and appropriate.

Source: Haaretz

It's good to see freedom of speech.
A jew speaks out against the actions of his own govt, with no fear of recourse.

such blood has flowed over there, i think it will never stop.



On a different vein, from the same jewish newspaper :

Quote:

.......Synagogue members suggested their building after hearing the Muslim congregation was looking to rent a place for overflow crowds. "People look to the Jewish-Muslim relationship as conflict," said All Dulles Area Muslim Society Imam Mohamed Magid, saying it's usually disputes between the two groups in the Middle East that make news. "Here is a story that shatters the stereotype."............. ............. Beyond being tolerant, the synagogue and its members have been welcoming. He said one member of the mosque told him, "Next time I see a Jewish person I will not look at them the same." ......

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1115271.html

Quote:

It's good to see freedom of speech. A jew speaks out against the actions of his own govt, with no fear of recourse.

The usual "Well really this is something good, because it just shows how open and honest we are", completely glossing over the actual content.


Quote:

such blood has flowed over there

Yes, another case of everything the British touches just turns to ruin. Prior to the entry of the British into Palestine, Jews and Arabs lived side by side as neighbours (in fact some Jewish groups descended from those original Palestinian Jews, to this day reject the Zionist state).


Quote:

i think it will never stop.

Another attempt to belittle and gloss over the atrocities?? It's never ending, so I'm going to be completely apathetic about it??


Quote:

On a different vein, from the same jewish newspaper

Whilst that might be a nice article, it's not really relevant, and in fact it's completely out of place here. Perhaps start a new thread for it?

The amazing part about this U.N report is that because an ardent Zionist was the judge presiding over it, it's supposedly meant to be much softer than it should've been, ie. justice has been sacrificed because of the ideology of the judge.

Imagine if they'd actually used an impartial independant judge.... One shudders to think.

---

Goldstone's daughter: My father's participation softened UN Gaza report
By Haaretz Service

Had Richard Goldstone not served as the head of the UN inquiry into the Gaza war, the accusations against Israel would have been harsher, Goldstone's daughter, Nicole, said in an interview conducted in Hebrew with Army Radio on Wednesday.

"My father took on this job because he thought he is doing the best thing for peace, for everyone, and also for Israel," Nicole Goldstone told Army Radio.

She added that her father wrestled with the decision to take on the task. "It wasn't easy [for him]," Nicole Goldstone said. "My father did not expect to see and hear what he saw and heard."

Nicole Goldstone, who currently lives in Canada with her family, spoke of her great love for Israel.

"Every time I dream of returning to the country or that my son will one day immigrate there," she told Army Radio.

"Israel is more important to me than anything. I'm not there at the moment, but my heart is always there."

Nicole Goldstone said she expects to host her father for the upcoming Rosh Hashanah holiday.

Source: Haaretz

Mark my words....

Israel will be isolated soon, Israel will become a pariah, among the nations of the world.




+++++++




Matthew 16:1
The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2  He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3  And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?


Joel 3:2
I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Yadda, are you suggesting the Zionists should be let off for any war crimes they commit, just because they are descendants of people mentioned in your holy book??

Do you realise that a large proportion of Jews are atheists?? And a large proportion are complete secularists and couldn't care less about God or your book?

You're living in the past. The children of Israel as a chosen nation are finished, long ago. In fact they finished when the Messiah (pbuh) came. Since then they've ceased to be a nation.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 2:43pm:

Yadda, are you suggesting the Zionists should be let off for any war crimes they commit, just because they are descendants of people mentioned in your holy book?? Do you realise that a large proportion of Jews are atheists?? And a large proportion are complete secularists and couldn't care less about God or your book? You're living in the past. The children of Israel as a chosen nation are finished, long ago. In fact they finished when the Messiah (pbuh) came. Since then they've ceased to be a nation.

abu,

Believe what you will, we all do.        ;)



No matter what you, or any other person, may say to the contrary,
....Israel are God's people abu, the God of Israel has declared it.


Isaiah 43:1
But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.


Jeremiah 23:5
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.


Jeremiah 32:37
Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38  And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39  And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40  And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41  Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42  For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.


Ezekiel 11:14
Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
15  Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
16  Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17  Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.





abu,

Read what Moses wrote, 3,400 years ago.....


Deuteronomy 30:1
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2  And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3  That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4  If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5  And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7  And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.


Time to repent abu.          ::)

Quote:

The children of Israel as a chosen nation are finished

They rejected God. The Messiah (pbuh) was their last chance...

Now they are doomed to wait until the last days, still thinking the Messiah is yet to come. And no doubt when the anti-Christ comes, they will hail him as their Messiah. And sadly the Christians will probably just go along with it, because the Children of Israel are God's chosen, and they think he's the Messiah, so he must be...

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 4:53pm:

Quote: The children of Israel as a chosen nation are finished They [Israel] rejected God. The Messiah (pbuh) was their last chance...

Oh yes.

According to,    .........abu.


abu,

As i said above,

Quote:

Believe what you will, we all do.

Quote:

Now they are doomed to wait until the last days, still thinking the Messiah is yet to come. And no doubt when the anti-Christ comes, they will hail him as their Messiah. And sadly the Christians will probably just go along with it, because the Children of Israel are God's chosen, and they think he's the Messiah, so he must be...

"....when the anti-Christ comes..."

LOL

abu,

You have it so, so, wrong.

As i said above,

Quote:

Believe what you will, we all do.

abu,

My understanding of the 'Antichrist' is very, very, different to yours.

With you abu, it is always the 'flesh' isn't it?

Never the spirit touches you!             :o

I could explain my understanding of the 'Antichrist' to you, but on past experience, i know that you would not understand, or grasp what i was saying.

I am weary of explaining.




Instead, i offer you these verses...

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9  Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10  Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11  Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


John 8:43  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Quote:

With you abu, it is always the 'flesh' isn't it? Never the spirit touches you!

Muslims do not have any crisis about flesh/spirit as Christians do. For us both flesh and spirit, faith and works etc. are EQUALLY as important. Islam is a balanced religion, not like Judaeo-Christianity, in which the former was too flesh/works based, and so the latter rebelled and became overly spirit/faith based, neglecting the other components of a good healthy balanced religion.


Quote:

Oh yes. According to,    .........abu.

You don't think they rejected God by denying and slaying the Messiah (pbuh)?? Strange...


Quote:

I could explain my understanding of the 'Antichrist' to you, but on past experience, i know that you would not understand, or grasp what i was saying. I am weary of explaining.

Perhaps your explanations just don't make much sense? I'm not the only one here who considers you an incomprehensible rambling nutter.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 10:41pm:

Quote: With you abu, it is always the 'flesh' isn't it? Never the spirit touches you! Muslims do not have any crisis about flesh/spirit as Christians do. For us both flesh and spirit, faith and works etc. are EQUALLY as important. Islam is a balanced religion, not like Judaeo-Christianity, in which the former was too flesh/works based, and so the latter rebelled and became overly spirit/faith based, neglecting the other components of a good healthy balanced religion.

ROFLOL

Check out the very latest, 'good works', of moslems abu,

THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/







Quote:

[quote]Oh yes. According to,    .........abu.

You don't think [Jews] rejected God by denying and slaying the Messiah (pbuh)?? Strange...

[/quote]

abu,

We, all mankind, reject God anew, everyday.

The Jews, and the Hebrews before them, were instituted in the world, by our God, for an 'example' to, and of, ourselves.


1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
.....
11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.



We [all mankind] are meant to come to understand the folly of this fleshly existence,
...the PRIDE, the VANITY, of this flesh.

God chose and separated the Hebrews [today the Jews], that the rest of mankind [and indeed the Jewish people themselves] would focus on the actions, and the failings of God's own, chosen people.

So we would realise the inescapable dichotomy between the flesh and the spirit.


Deuteronomy 9:1
Hear, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to possess nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and fenced up to heaven,
2  A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!
3  Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
4  Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5  Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.


Dictionary,
stiff-necked = = haughty and stubborn.

abu,

Now look at yourself, and your 'brothers', today.                 :o

Who are the stiff-necked people today, who fight against God and his angels?

http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam1.jpg
Will Allah's 'warriors' take the 'promised land', by force?

Have we learnt nothing, about our nature abu?

Mankind is bad enough!

But moslems / ISLAM, pander to our nature, in the extreme [imo] !!i
Quote:

[quote]I could explain my understanding of the 'Antichrist' to you, but on past experience, i know that you would not understand, or grasp what i was saying. I am weary of explaining.

Perhaps your explanations just don't make much sense? I'm not the only one here who considers you an incomprehensible rambling nutter.

[/quote]

I'm sure that i am incomprehensible to you.

And thank you for your opinion abu.

And i am, really worried by your opinion abu.
/sarc off


John 8:48
Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?


John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21  But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
22  If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
23  He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 18^th, 2009 at 4:53pm:

Quote: The children of Israel as a chosen nation are finished They rejected God. The Messiah (pbuh) was their last chance... Now they are doomed to wait until the last days, still thinking the Messiah is yet to come. And no doubt when the anti-Christ comes, they will hail him as their Messiah. And sadly the Christians will probably just go along with it, because the Children of Israel are God's chosen, and they think he's the Messiah, so he must be...

abu,

I'm sure, i couldn't have said it better myself,

"IF YOU ARE ANTI - ISRAEL - YOU ARE ANTI - CHRIST!"
http://www.thefirstorlast.com/


That is a play on words, but it is true also [imo].






+++++++





1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Quote:

"IF YOU ARE ANTI - ISRAEL - YOU ARE ANTI - CHRIST!"

Guess that means then that Israel & Christ are synonymous for you....

So when they follow a false Messiah (as they've done before), you will follow them, since they are Christ, in your eyes.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 25^th, 2009 at 2:58pm:

Quote: "IF YOU ARE ANTI - ISRAEL - YOU ARE ANTI - CHRIST!" Guess that means then that Israel & Christ are synonymous for you.... So when they follow a false Messiah (as they've done before), you will follow them, since they are Christ, in your eyes.

No.

I would say that Israel & [their] Christ [their messiah] are, not so much synonymous,
.....but more like, the two sides of one coin.




abu,

Jesus himself said,

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37  If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38  But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.




abu,

It is certain in my mind, that if you [or anyone!] is anti-Israel, they are anti-Christ, and anti-God.

And that they are standing on the wrong side, of that 'line in the sand'.

Open your eyes.

Quote:

....Others will say that if Judge Richard Goldstone was reliable enough to be a prosecutor in the International Criminal Court cases on Yugoslavia and Rwanda, and his Pakistani colleague Hina Jilani was fit to participate in the international investigation into Darfur, there is no reason to suddenly cast doubt on their credentials now that they are examining Israel's deeds in Gaza. The Goldstone Commission's findings are in line with what anyone who didn't shut his or her eyes and ears to witness testimony already knows.

A witness for the IDF,

YOUTUBE,

British Colonel Declares "The IDF Did More to Safeguard Civilians Than Any Other Army"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fko9F1EAU2g

BBC - Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp Discusses IDF Gaza Ops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw



A few comments, at YOUTUBE,


Quote:

omg...one saintly in sodom Skillerf1 (13 hours ago) stop belive in the arab propaganda . there is a real democracy in the Middle East support Israel ! Ryokenai (14 hours ago) This guy is the man. Finally someone speaks the truth. The Goldstone report was flawed and false to begin with, and now the Arabs have bastardized it into something not even Goldstone believes in. sentinellaeuropea (1 day ago) he's just speaking the truth and the truth is really disturbing for people that prefer to beleive the propaganda instad of knowing the truth bruk5   (1 day ago)

Well if one of Israel's allies' soldiers saw it... then it must be true... right?  ;D

Come on Yadda, this is like me bringing a member of the Muslim brotherhood from Egypt and saying he visited Ghazzah during the operation also, and he saw Hamas acting as the most humane army ever...... How much weight would you give it??

How would you propose that any military (don't worry about Israel for a moment) distinguish between militants in civilian dress and civilians in civilian dress? Militants hiding among civilians shooting at you and civilians hiding among civilians not shooting t you for the moment. Mosques, apartment blocks and ambulances used by militants in civilian dress and mosques, apartment blocks and ambulances not used by militants?

How would you do it?



This just in:


Israel's foreign ministry predictably savaged Friday's adoption of the Goldstone Report on the Gaza conflict by the United Nations Human Right Council, but sharp criticism also came from an unexpected source: Judge Richard Goldstone himself.

Even before the vote, Goldstone criticized the wording of the UNHRC draft resolution, saying it was wrong to target only Israel while failing to condemn Hamas. "This draft resolution saddens me as it includes only allegations against Israel," AFP quoted Goldstone as telling Swiss newspaper Le Temps on Thursday.

"There is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope that the council can modify the text," Goldstone said. The text was not modified, the Jewish Judge could only sit back and fret over the way in which even his meager attempts at balance were ignored and over-ruled by Arab and Islamic states and other third-world non-democratic states.

[...]

Although the Goldstone report also accuses Hamas of war crimes, the five-page resolution adopted in Geneva mentions only Israeli violations of international law. The ministry's statement stressed that Israel would continue "to implement its right to self-defense, and will work to ensure the safety of its residents."

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 19^th, 2009 at 6:30pm:

Well if one of Israel's allies' soldiers saw it... then it must be true... right?  ;D Come on Yadda, this is like me bringing a member of the Muslim brotherhood from Egypt and saying he visited Ghazzah during the operation also, and he saw Hamas acting as the most humane army ever...... How much weight would you give it??

Believe the report of a moslem???

How much weight would you give it???

Duh!

Come on abu!

What a dumb, dumb, question !!!!          :D


Google,
pallywood hoax lies
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=pallywood+hoax+lies&btnG=Search&meta=


Google,
al dura hoax lies
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=al+dura+hoax+lies&btnG=Search&meta=


Google,
UN Human Rights commission ISLAMISTS
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=UN+Human+Rights+Commission+ISLAMISTS&btnG=Search&meta=


Google,
HRW promotes agenda of Hamas and Hezbollah
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=HRW+promotes+agenda+of+Hamas+and+Hezbollah&btnG=Search&meta=






http://www.solomonia.com/blog/images/october07/memrimartyr.jpg
http://www.solomonia.com/blog/images/october07/memrimartyr.jpg
Hamas cadres, themselves, murder 'Palestinian' children [making 'martyrs'], and then insist that the world believe, that Israel did these murders

Quote:

How would you propose that any military (don't worry about Israel for a moment) distinguish between militants in civilian dress and civilians in civilian dress?

1) Hamas soldiers and police wear uniforms.

2) During WWII did members of the underground resistance movements that sprung up resisting the Nazi invasion and occupation walk around in uniforms?? Were they therefore responsible for the Nazis murdering civilians in their country???

3) Women and children waving white flags are NOT MILITANTS IN DISGUISE.

Yadda, your clear denial of the atrocities committed against the Palestinians is as sickening as those who deny the holocaust as a 'holohoax'.

abu - your denial that moh was a sex addict and the koran is a war plan is as sickening as was mohs assassainations

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 19^th, 2009 at 8:30pm:

Yadda, your clear denial of the atrocities committed against the Palestinians is as sickening as those who deny the holocaust as a 'holohoax'.

abu,

You hate TRUTH.

Shame on you.

I'll say it again, shame on you abu.


www.unwatch.org/








++++++





The man of pride, the man of vanity, the man of lies, the spirit of antichrist, within us.

The man who displaces the spirit of God, within himself.

He, is us.

The ANTICHRIST.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.




Quote:

....because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Yadda, The U.N is definitely an instrument of hypocrisy, but it's YOUR hypocrisy, not ours. The U.N was created by the (mostly) Christian West in order to promote it's own neo-colonialist agenda. When it occasionally does something a little closer to neutral (note, not even fair, just or neutral) in order to keep the plebs happy and still deluded into thinking the U.N is somehow a fair and just organisation, you cry that it's pro-Palestinian....

Funny because when the U.N voted to create the Zionist state in the first place, nobody cried it was unfair (well except for the Palestinians of course), when the U.N voted to put sanctions on Iraq and starve a million of her kids to death, you didn't cry it was unfair, when resolution after resolution against Israel's atrocities are repeatedly thrown out due to U.S vetoes (regardless of whether the charges are correct or not).... Yet when it goes remotely against your cause, all of a sudden it's rigged... You are indeed an apostle of falsehood Yadda. For you up is down, down is up, left is right, right is left, and the U.N is a lackey of the Muslim world.... Get a grip on reality!!!

The judge was a Zionist Jew, whose daughter admitted on Israeli Army Public Radio that her father "shyed away from the truth of the situation" in order to protect Israel and lighten up his judgement a bit... yet still you cry it's rigged by the Palestinians.... don't you have any shame regarding how ridiculous your claims appear??

Don't you have any shame that it's been exposed the truth was twisted in your favour, yet still you're blinded by the idea you've been wronged... What kind of mentality thinks like this?? Other than the spoilt brat I described to you before, that chucks a tantrum if he doesn't get every single last lolly in the bag, whilst the others get none...

It all boils down to Israel's right to exist. There is no peace because there is no agreement on that. Everything that happens between Arabs and Jews is an elaboration and illustration of that question.

It doesn't have a right to exist, and there will be no peace until it is dismantled. Learn this, or learn to live with a few more decades of chaos, choice is ours...

And since the U.N is supposedly just a lackey of the Muslims anyway, the U.N ruling that it does have a right to exist is invalid... right??

Dismantled, eh? Like the Banu Qurayza were dismantled.  Won't happen again.

Quote:

Dismantled, eh? Like the Banu Qurayza were dismantled.

It will happen one way or the other. At some point they'll either cut their losses and retreat back to Lithuania, New York, Poland and wherever else they came from... or, they'll be expelled. That choice is theirs though.

Perhaps those who reclaim their original home will be nice enough to setup a little homeland for them in a fenced in few sqkm of desert. Although the way it's going, I doubt they'd be feeling that generous towards them. But of course any who wish to remain, may, as Samaritans and some of the Neuteri Karta have lived under the Palestinians since 1948 anyway...


Quote:

Won't happen again.

Because of their own atrocities against the Muslims, it's bound to happen again. Had they not come and done this, then perhaps it may never have happened again.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 10:11am:

[Israel] doesn't have a right to exist, and there will be no peace until it is dismantled. Learn this, or learn to live with a few more decades of chaos, choice is ours...

Your really, really, do not realise what you are saying abu.

You are speaking against yourself.

You are 'Israel' too - if you choose.

But you are stating that you hate God's righteousness, and love the lies of the wicked,
....while claiming your own righteousness [through ISLAM].





Look at this world people!!

Look at what this present age of mankind is doing, again!!

Wake up!!

There is nothing new under the sun.

Deuteronomy 9:4
Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5  Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Quote:

You are 'Israel' too - if you choose. But you are stating that you hate God's righteousness, and love the lies of the wicked,

Unlike you I do not worship a certain tribe or Jewish man.

I worship the one true creator and sustainer of all existence. My righteousness is determined by my faith and works, and is granted to me purely by the MERCY of him who created me (not because of either of the two former points).

Israel (Yaqub) peace and blessings be upon him, was a great prophet of God, but to worship him and make him and his tribe (or even their supposed ethnic descendants) some kind of symbol of righteousness is just nonsensical mumbo jumbo. It's the kind of stuff people invent in the absence of a real solid belief.

Yadda wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 11:13am:

Look at this world people!! Look at what this present age of mankind is doing, again!!

Most of mankind, are proving, by their own choices, that they are the son's, and daughters, of Cain.







+++++






John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 11:26am:

Quote: You are 'Israel' too - if you choose. But you are stating that you hate God's righteousness, and love the lies of the wicked, Unlike you I do not worship a certain tribe or Jewish man. I worship the one true creator and sustainer of all existence. My righteousness is determined by my faith and works, and is granted to me purely by the MERCY of him who created me (not because of either of the two former points). Israel (Yaqub) peace and blessings be upon him, was a great prophet of God, but to worship him and make him and his tribe (or even their supposed ethnic descendants) some kind of symbol of righteousness is just nonsensical mumbo jumbo. It's the kind of stuff people invent in the absence of a real solid belief.

LOL



Psalms 94:11
The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 19^th, 2009 at 6:30pm:

Well if one of Israel's allies' soldiers saw it... then it must be true... right?  ;D Come on Yadda, this is like me bringing a member of the Muslim brotherhood from Egypt and saying he visited Ghazzah during the operation also, and he saw Hamas acting as the most humane army ever...... How much weight would you give it??

abu,

It appears that Col. Richard Kemp although informed, he is clearly not an impartial observer.

But, perhaps the reason that Col. Richard Kemp is not an impartial observer, is because, he is informed on the issue he speaks to?



Another presentation on YOUTUBE,

Col. Richard Kemp on the U.N. Goldstone Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

Wow! wow! wow!

God bless this man, Col. Richard Kemp, a truth speaker.

He's an officer in an army that's at war with Islam, it's no surprise whatsoever he'd write such things. Kinda like letting Pope Urban comment on the behaviour of the crusaders when they were eating the corpses of the Muslims they'd slaughtered....

On the other hand, we have a Zionist Jew, as the judge, already admitted he's modified the truth to shield Israel, and his judgement is scathing enough as it is....

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 4:06pm:

He's an officer in an army that's at war with Islam, it's no surprise whatsoever he'd write such things. Kinda like letting Pope Urban comment on the behaviour of the crusaders when they were eating the corpses of the Muslims they'd slaughtered.... On the other hand, we have a Zionist Jew, as the judge, already admitted he's modified the truth to shield Israel, and his judgement is scathing enough as it is....

I have only one thing to say to you abu,

God bless this man, Col. Richard Kemp, a truth speaker.

He's an apologist for atrocities. And you are a cheer-squad for such.

As an apostle of falsehood and believer in the coming anti-Messiah I guess it's your duty though isn't it...

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 11:13am:

Quote: Won't happen again. Because of their own atrocities against the Muslims, it's bound to happen again. Had they not come and done this, then perhaps it may never have happened again.

Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious
By Spengler

"The situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable," declared United Sates President Barack Obama in his June 4 Cairo address. Really? Compared to what? Things are tough all over. The Palestinians are one of many groups displaced by the population exchanges that followed World War II, and the only ones whose great-grandchildren still have the legal status of refugees. Why are they still there? The simplest explanation is that they like it there, because they are much better off than people of similar capacities in other Arab countries.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH18Ak01.html

When the Muslims leave behind their poverty, tyranny and backwardness, then life in Muslim countries may then become better than in Israel. Maybe then Israel will be wiped off the map by the Arabs. But the price of that would be leaving Islam also behind. But then the motivation to destroy Israel will also be gone.


SO your dilemma is this: you hang on to Islam and with it the poverty and tyranny and you can dream of wiping out Israel without being able to.

Or you enable yourselves - but then you will have left Islam by the roadside, together with poverty and tyranny and your motivation to wipe out Israel.

That article is just nonsense soren.

Every single Muslim country without exception has abandoned Islam and adopted Western style institutions and ideals. And this is in fact the reason for their stagnation and inability to bootstrap themselves. They have become nothing but persistent client states. Only by returning to Islam will they achieve anything, this is what the West knows and this is what the West fears.

The most frustrating thing for the West must be knowing that they lost their chance with the Muslim world. Back in the 1940's up until about the 1980's, Muslim countries were almost exact clones of the West. Not only were the governments puppets, but the people themselves were actually sold on the idea of the Western culture. Just as an example, take a look at this picture:

http://tinypic.com/j0b3fq.jpg

This is a famous Saudi family (leave you to guess which one) on holiday in Europe back in the early 1970's, as you can see they look very much like any other Western youth from that period. What happened? What went wrong? Why did that young man (circled) turn so anti-Western and become the leader of a worldwide movement to fight and defeat the Western influence in the Muslim world??

These people tasted the Western lifestyle, they don't want it, contrary to your delusions. They've woken up and realised that the only reason the Western style of society/government works for the West is because they're the ones leading it. It doesn't work for clients. It doesn't work for wannabes.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 10:09am:

This is a famous Saudi family (leave you to guess which one) on holiday in Europe back in the early 1970's, as you can see they look very much like any other Western youth from that period.

That's the way they all became bin Laden Bunch

Apparently Osama from a youth was hung up on the fact that he was merely the son of his father through a concubine. Word is he never quite got over it.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 10:09am:

These people tasted the Western lifestyle, they don't want it, contrary to your delusions. They've woken up and realised that the only reason the Western style of society/government works for the West is because they're the ones leading it. It doesn't work for clients. It doesn't work for wannabes.

What's the bet you'll find bin Laden's living the good life in Europe, eating non halal French cuisine and chuffing back a shlurp or two of fine single malt scotch?

you complete islamic idiot .


Quote:

.......the only reason the Western style of society/government works for the West is because they're the ones leading it....

it's a democracy, we vote for it.
freedom of speech and other stuff islamics fear

typical of you to praise a murderer
you sicken me

helian, you mean the brady tribe!

That is a bit more than a bunch.


Quote:

Apparently Osama from a youth was hung up on the fact that he was merely the son of his father through a concubine. Word is he never quite got over it.

Although you probably just consider that a witty little dig at him.. Concubinage does not exist in Saudi Arabia, so the idea is just ridiculous.

Perhaps he's just hung up on all the dead, mutilated, pillaged Muslims he saw in his time on the front lines in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion? Remember back when he used to be a heroic freedom fighter...

Quote:

What's the bet you'll find bin Laden's living the good life in Europe, eating non halal French cuisine and chuffing back a shlurp or two of fine single malt scotch?

And much worse. My point though was not that such people don't exist, but that on the whole, Muslim societies were once very pro-Western and prided themselves on their imitation of the West. Today that's almost completely gone, except amongst the ruling elite.

20 years ago if you went to places like Cairo or Damascus, you'd find young men driving around with American flags draped across the back windows of their cars... today they drape them across fires.. The West has used up all it's good will in the Muslim world. They've completely alienated the people, and Islam has been the winner.

20 years ago, muslim countries were broke.
they were concerned about their next meal, not foistering their beliefs on the world.

then the petrodollars rolled in, now muslims are cashed up and keen to overrun the globe

sprint,

Not sure if you're aware but petrol was discovered in the Muslim countries about 100 years ago not 20 ;D

The ability of Muslim countries to actually independantly use their oil wealth for their own advantage is long gone. Gone are the days when the Muslim countries were able to slap an embargo on the U.S... Now Muslim countries are just subject to embargoes themselves.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 3:16pm:

sprint, Not sure if you're aware but petrol was discovered in the Muslim countries about 100 years ago not 20 ;D The ability of Muslim countries to actually independantly use their oil wealth for their own advantage is long gone. Gone are the days when the Muslim countries were able to slap an embargo on the U.S... Now Muslim countries are just subject to embargoes themselves.

So what' left for them? Work or conquer.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 10:49am:

helian, you mean the brady tribe! That is a bit more than a bunch. Quote: Apparently Osama from a youth was hung up on the fact that he was merely the son of his father through a concubine. Word is he never quite got over it. Although you probably just consider that a witty little dig at him.. Concubinage does not exist in Saudi Arabia, so the idea is just ridiculous.

That's not how Osama calls it... He's not a son of the legal wives of his father's... but from a subsequent concubine.

Perhaps, based on his sense of inferiority, he dedicated his life to being the most Muslismy Muslim of Islam... That's the usual reason for extremism.

The same as being more Catholic than the Pope.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2009 at 1:30pm:

Quote: What's the bet you'll find bin Laden's living the good life in Europe, eating non halal French cuisine and chuffing back a shlurp or two of fine single malt scotch? And much worse. My point though was not that such people don't exist, but that on the whole, Muslim societies were once very pro-Western and prided themselves on their imitation of the West. Today that's almost completely gone, except amongst the ruling elite. 20 years ago if you went to places like Cairo or Damascus, you'd find young men driving around with American flags draped across the back windows of their cars... today they drape them across fires.. The West has used up all it's good will in the Muslim world. They've completely alienated the people, and Islam has been the winner.

What you'll find is that anti-Americanism consistently evaporates quick on the bite of an enlightened administration.

If that were the case helian, we'd expect to see it fluctuate ever 4-8 years... but that's not the case.

For well over 30-40 years (even much longer in some countries), Muslim societies were largely pro-Western... but for the past 30 odd years, they've been hastily retreating from their former position, betrayal after betrayal soon wears thin. Do you really think a few kind words from Obama in Cairo are going to smooth it all over??? "Hey look he's bombing the hell outta our brothers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, supporting brutal dictators in Saudi, Egypt & Morocco... but he did say that nice stuff in Cairo... ok then, he's forgiven"... I don't think so.

Quote:

That's not how Osama calls it... He's not a son of the legal wives of his father's... but from a subsequent concubine.

Whatever keeps you amused :)


Quote:

Osama bin Laden was born the only son of Muhammed bin Laden's tenth wife, Hamida al-Attas. Osama's parents divorced soon after he was born; Osama's mother then married Muhammad al-Attas.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_laden)

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 12:02am:

If that were the case helian, we'd expect to see it fluctuate ever 4-8 years... but that's not the case. For well over 30-40 years (even much longer in some countries), Muslim societies were largely pro-Western... but for the past 30 odd years, they've been hastily retreating from their former position, betrayal after betrayal soon wears thin. Do you really think a few kind words from Obama in Cairo are going to smooth it all over??? "Hey look he's bombing the hell outta our brothers in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, supporting brutal dictators in Saudi, Egypt & Morocco... but he did say that nice stuff in Cairo... ok then, he's forgiven"... I don't think so.

International religious brotherhood is a utopian myth... the delusional dream of a self-declared prophet... Arabs are no more brothers of Afghanis (where, in Afghanistan, they were known dysphemistically as 'tourists'), as are we.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 12:06am:

Quote: Osama bin Laden was born the only son of Muhammed bin Laden's tenth wife, Hamida al-Attas. Osama's parents divorced soon after he was born; Osama's mother then married Muhammad al-Attas. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_laden)

Only the first four are the real deal.

Quote:

Only the first four are the real deal.

Where on earth did you get this nonsense from?

Osama's father, Mohammed, had 22 wives in total. The first three, he remained married to. Wife four, he would marry and divorce in order to secure business deals. Osama himself believed that his mother was in effect a concubine as he believed his parents' marriage was not an official Quranic union.

Mohammed bin Laden was not exactly a paradigm for human morality.

Sounds like part of America's bitter little attempt to belittle and slander the man, since he's the arch-enemy.

Could be the case his father married for the wrong intentions, woudn't make the marriages invalid though, and it certainly doesn't make his mother a concubine, this is just nonsense.

The mental profile of OBL that the Western media gives to try and make the people feel better is very inaccurate and really just leads to under-estimating him. This is a key point noted by Michael Scheuer, the former CIA Bin Laden Tracking Unit head turned author who has written 2 or 3 books on him.

OBL is not the looney extremist hiding in caves that you've been led to believe he is. And believing in such an inaccurate estimation of him is a bad idea, since he's a very intelligent and calculating fellow, that is able to act with remarkable patience & precision.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 6:24am:

Could be the case his father married for the wrong intentions, woudn't make the marriages invalid though, and it certainly doesn't make his mother a concubine, this is just nonsense. The mental profile of OBL that the Western media gives to try and make the people feel better is very inaccurate and really just leads to under-estimating him. This is a key point noted by Michael Scheuer, the former CIA Bin Laden Tracking Unit head turned author who has written 2 or 3 books on him. OBL is not the looney extremist hiding in caves that you've been led to believe he is. And believing in such an inaccurate estimation of him is a bad idea, since he's a very intelligent and calculating fellow, that is able to act with remarkable patience & precision.

Whether his mother was in fact a concubine is less important than how Osama perceived her and his parents' marriage. There'd be no doubt in his mind that his father's antics were immoral. An immorality with which he would not have been infected by the west but by Islamo-Arabian culture.

I wasn't suggesting OBL was a loony or stupid. He is most definitely a calculating and intelligent man whose memory among most Muslims is synonymous with hate and death... Were it not for the ancient and honoured Afghani code of hospitality, even the Taliban would have surrendered him to the US.

He is admired only by blind zealots and psychopaths such as those Iraqi Muslims who have seen to it that the Arab Christians in Iraq (from communities that have existed for hundreds of years before Mohammed walked into that cave) are murdered out of existence.

Quote:

Whether his mother was in fact a concubine is less important than how Osama perceived her and his parents' marriage. There'd be no doubt in his mind that his father's antics were immoral. An immorality with which he would not have been infected by the west but by Islamo-Arabian culture.

No worries Sigmund.

It's amazing how much insight you have into a man you've never even met, and only know about through emotionally-distorted media reports.


Quote:

He is most definitely a calculating and intelligent man whose memory among most Muslims is synonymous with hate and death...

Most non-Muslims I think you mean? Amongst Muslims he's considered a freedom fighter who expelled and helped to destroy the Mighty Soviet Union. Just because accusations have been made about him, doesn't mean they've been proven or accepted by most of the world. Even many non-Muslims doubt he actually did 9/11, so imagine Muslims... most definitely think he didn't do it.


Quote:

Were it not for the ancient and honoured Afghani code of hospitality, even the Taliban would have surrendered him to the US.

;D

So why did only one tiny little group of Afghans remember this "ancient and honoured" code of hospitality?? What happened to the other 95% of the country who sided with the Americans and helped to oust the Talibaan? What a load of bollocks really. They harboured him because the charges were garbage, and because they knew he would not receive a fair trial, and probably because of their respect for him as a Mujahid who helped to liberate Afghanistan.


Quote:

He is admired only by blind zealots and psychopaths such as those Iraqi Muslims who have seen to it that the Arab Christians in Iraq (from communities that have existed for hundreds of years before Mohammed walked into that cave) are murdered out of existence.

This is more nonsense. Only since the West entered Muslim countries have the minorities, that've lived there for over 1300 years of Islamic rule end up dwindling. Palestine, Iraq etc. all had large ancient populations of Jews and Christians, who were largely wiped out when the West came in.... for 1300 years of Islamic rule, sometimes even brutally oppressive (against Muslims, Jews and Christians alike) they survived and thrived... after less than a decade of Western occupation and they're being eradicated. Sure we hear in the media about "sunni insurgents" doing it... do you expect anything else from the mouthpiece of the occupying force??? IF the Sunni's were so intent on doing that, why didn't they do it for the past 1300 years??? Why didn't they do it under Saddam for the 30 odd years he brutalised Iraq??? You're not that daft helian.. you've for a mind, use it.

only an islamic would protect one who organised the murder of 100's of civilians.

sort of reminds me of the islamic responses to mohs murderous ways

Quote:

only an islamic would protect one who organised the murder of 100's of civilians.

Nope, plenty of 'unislamics' do it here regularly. Like those who support, encouraged and belittle the murder of thousands of Palestinians during the invasion of Ghazzah.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 9:56am:

This is more nonsense. Only since the West entered Muslim countries have the minorities, that've lived there for over 1300 years of Islamic rule end up dwindling. Palestine, Iraq etc. all had large ancient populations of Jews and Christians, who were largely wiped out when the West came in.... for 1300 years of Islamic rule, sometimes even brutally oppressive (against Muslims, Jews and Christians alike) they survived and thrived... after less than a decade of Western occupation and they're being eradicated. Sure we hear in the media about "sunni insurgents" doing it... do you expect anything else from the mouthpiece of the occupying force??? IF the Sunni's were so intent on doing that, why didn't they do it for the past 1300 years??? Why didn't they do it under Saddam for the 30 odd years he brutalised Iraq??? You're not that daft helian.. you've for a mind, use it.

Why don't you listen to what Andrew White has to say about the systematic harassment and genocide he has personally witnessed perpetrated by Arab Muslims on Arab Christians and the extremely dangerous hostage for cash swaps he has organised and transacted to return Arab Christian hostages to their distraught families from Islamist terrorists (notwithstanding that he suffers multiple sclerosis) and the murders of Christian converts by Muslims and the Arab Christian families who must go to church in shifts to ensure survival of some family members in the event that the church is blown up... see the pictures of what Islamists did to one Arab Christian's children because the man owned a liquor store...

Then decide for yourself whether he's lying.

Why didn't Sadam persecute Christians? Because he wasn't religious.

helian, hostage takers in Iraq often kidnap Christians, Muslims, Shi'a, Yazidis, Jews, anyone they can get their hands on, who they think someone will pay for. Most are just desperate criminals who have nothing to do with Islam. In case you hadn't noticed the worlds most powerful militaries invaded the country, after they'd starved it to death for a good decade (since their previous invasion, which came at the end of a protracted 10 year war with their neighbour), and that tends to leave a lot of people desperate. The people of Iraq have lived now for about 30 good solid years of either war or sanctions... The idea it's somehow all about a Sunni plot to eradicate Christians from Iraq is just laughable really.


Quote:

Then decide for yourself whether he's lying.

I have no doubt he's seen things neither of us can imagine. I just doubt the accuracy of his analysis of it. I will try to look up some of his material though, I think you posted a link to it in the spirituality forum somewhere... will check it out. But likewise, you should take the blinkers of helian and do a little independant thinking/analysis about it too... because that explanation just doesn't add up.

Quote:

Why didn't Sadam persecute Christians? Because he wasn't religious.

Because he was too busy persecuting Muslims. The world knows how brutal he was to the Shi'a, what they rarely examine is the fact he was just as brutal to the Sunnis... He imprisoned, executed, tortured thousands upon thousands of Sunni Muslims... yet most of the time Sunnis are given the blame for his atrocities, because he was from a Sunni background. Saddam was an enemy of all the Iraqi people, not just particular religious/ethnic groups. Didn't stop the U.S propelling him to power and arming him to the teeth to carry out his little escapades.. did it? Saddam was a terrorist and a tyrant, and those who funded and supported him are guilty of funding and supporting terrorism, and MUST be brought to justice!

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 10:30am:

Quote: Why didn't Sadam persecute Christians? Because he wasn't religious. Because he was too busy persecuting Muslims. The world knows how brutal he was to the Shi'a, what they rarely examine is the fact he was just as brutal to the Sunnis... He imprisoned, executed, tortured thousands upon thousands of Sunni Muslims... yet most of the time Sunnis are given the blame for his atrocities, because he was from a Sunni background. Saddam was an enemy of all the Iraqi people, not just particular religious/ethnic groups. Didn't stop the U.S propelling him to power and arming him to the teeth to carry out his little escapades.. did it? Saddam was a terrorist and a tyrant, and those who funded and supported him are guilty of funding and supporting terrorism, and MUST be brought to justice!

Sadam didn't persecute Shi'a because of theological disputes... He did it for power, the same reason for which he persecuted other Sunni rivals and the poor Kurds.

Right... but not for the same reason (power, wealth) some Iraqis might now be persecuting Christians?? That's different right? It's all about some sunni conspiracy to eradicate the Christians...

And it must be theological... right??

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 10:27am:

helian, hostage takers in Iraq often kidnap Christians, Muslims, Shi'a, Yazidis, Jews, anyone they can get their hands on, who they think someone will pay for. Most are just desperate criminals who have nothing to do with Islam. In case you hadn't noticed the worlds most powerful militaries invaded the country, after they'd starved it to death for a good decade (since their previous invasion, which came at the end of a protracted 10 year war with their neighbour), and that tends to leave a lot of people desperate. The people of Iraq have lived now for about 30 good solid years of either war or sanctions... The idea it's somehow all about a Sunni plot to eradicate Christians from Iraq is just laughable really.

Many are indeed desperate criminals and many are religious zealots and others are both. When asked to describe these hostage-takers, he replied that 'they all have one thing in common... They have lost... And what they have lost is power... And they want something in return'.


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 10:27am:

I have no doubt he's seen things neither of us can imagine. I just doubt the accuracy of his analysis of it. I will try to look up some of his material though, I think you posted a link to it in the spirituality forum somewhere... will check it out. But likewise, you should take the blinkers of helian and do a little independant thinking/analysis about it too... because that explanation just doesn't add up.

If you listen to enough of what he has to say, I don't think you'll doubt the accuracy of his analysis. I think you'll agree that he is a decent, intelligent, brave and honest man.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 10:43am:

Right... but not for the same reason (power, wealth) some Iraqis might now be persecuting Christians?? That's different right? It's all about some sunni conspiracy to eradicate the Christians... And it must be theological... right??

It's all about spite.

If Arab Muslims who commit these atrocities didn't see the world through religious eyes, they'd have no quarrel with Arab Christians in the first place.

helian, Iraq is a very messed up place right now... who messed it up?? Who has done the most meddling and bombing and starving and killing of the people??? Is it the resitance movements??? Or is the superpower they're trying to expel?? Be honest here. Look at the entire history of the situation, and look at it from all sides. More Muslims have died in probably one year than all the Christians in the past 30 years. More Muslim Iraqi children were probably starved to death than there is Christians in Iraq... and you come and tell me about a few Christians who've been kidnapped??? Come on helian, be just in your appraisal of the situation. All killing is bad, all oppression is bad, all kidnapping is bad, all these things are bad, but look at the reality of it, not just the facet of it that happens to have shined the brightest in your face. If the Iraqi Christians have a point to make, then the Iraqi Muslims have a point of a magnitude 1000 times greater to make. And blame the one who went in there and trashed the entire country, not those who responded, even if their response is not pretty.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 11:28am:

helian, Iraq is a very messed up place right now... who messed it up?? Who has done the most meddling and bombing and starving and killing of the people??? Is it the resitance movements??? Or is the superpower they're trying to expel?? Be honest here. Look at the entire history of the situation, and look at it from all sides. More Muslims have died in probably one year than all the Christians in the past 30 years. More Muslim Iraqi children were probably starved to death than there is Christians in Iraq... and you come and tell me about a few Christians who've been kidnapped??? Come on helian, be just in your appraisal of the situation. All killing is bad, all oppression is bad, all kidnapping is bad, all these things are bad, but look at the reality of it, not just the facet of it that happens to have shined the brightest in your face. If the Iraqi Christians have a point to make, then the Iraqi Muslims have a point of a magnitude 1000 times greater to make. And blame the one who went in there and trashed the entire country, not those who responded, even if their response is not pretty.

Arab Christians are not murdering Arab Muslims nor have they any quarrel with them. They are being murdered from spite arising from Arab Muslims perceiving Iraq's trauma only in religious terms.

Incredibly, Arab Christians plead with US and allied forces NOT to protect them, for fear that the situation will only be made worse.

Colonel Richard Kemp on the 'Goldstone Report', making the point that the IDF tries harder than any other combat force in the history of this world to prevent killing civilians, but that HAMAS uses its civilians as a propaganda victory, and deliberately puts them in harms way to that end.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NX6vyT8RzMo

He also makes the point that mistakes are made in war, and not every mistake is a 'war crime'.

Next you're going to tell us Hitler just made a few 'mistakes'?? Is that where this crap you're spewing out is leading? Or wait.. you wouldn't do that, unless his victims happened to be Muslims.

abu the deflector - tell us all about mohammads 10 (or so) "wives".
and how some nights he would "visit" them all !!!!

Was because he has assassainated someone?, or murdered plenty of jews?

what a spiritual guide.
I spit on him

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2009 at 7:22pm:

Next you're going to tell us Hitler just made a few 'mistakes'?? Is that where this crap you're spewing out is leading? Or wait.. you wouldn't do that, unless his victims happened to be Muslims.

Harold Evans, ex-editor of the Sunday Times, concludes his piece in the Guardian about the ‘moral atrocity’ of the Goldstone report thus:

The rockets [from Gaza] were war crimes and ought to have been universally condemned as such. While new rockets hit Israel over many months there was no rush by the world’s moralisers – including Britain – to censure Hamas, no urgency as there was in ‘world opinion’ when Israel finally responded. Then Israel was immediately accused of a ‘disproportionate’ response without anyone thinking: ‘What is a “proportionate”attack against an enemy dedicated to exterminating your people?’ A dedication to exterminating all of his?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/20/israel-goldstone-palestine-gaza-un

soren,

Are you deaf, dumb and blind? What is the right of a people, who were expelled from Sderot, back when it was called Najd, who are under an economic blockade in the massive refugee camp they've been herded into??? Do they have no right to defend themselves??? All of the people in Sderot are recent imports who were brought in when the village of Najd was razed to the ground and it's inhabitants expelled and sent fleeing to Ghazzah.... Do they have no rights to "respond"??? Are they sub-human in your eyes, and hence they're forbidden from responding??

With such a mentality, can you really expect anyone to respect your own humanity? Most notably those who you render as "undeserving"?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 10:32am:

soren, Are you deaf, dumb and blind? What is the right of a people, who were expelled from Sderot, back when it was called Najd, who are under an economic blockade in the massive refugee camp they've been herded into??? Do they have no right to defend themselves??? All of the people in Sderot are recent imports who were brought in when the village of Najd was razed to the ground and it's inhabitants expelled and sent fleeing to Ghazzah.... Do they have no rights to "respond"??? Are they sub-human in your eyes, and hence they're forbidden from responding?? With such a mentality, can you really expect anyone to respect your own humanity? Most notably those who you render as "undeserving"?

Their rights do not include lobbing missiles at civilians with impunity.
Or hiding behind their own civilians, sacrificing them, when the response comes.

Remove the civilian shields from the occupied village, and then perhaps you might have a case. Otherwise you're just speaking nonsense.

Last time I checked it's illegal under international law to put civilians into occupied territories.

abu the deflector - tell us all about mohammads 10 (or so) "wives".
and how some nights he would "visit" them all !!!!

Was because he has assassainated someone?, or murdered plenty of jews?

what a spiritual guide.
I spit on him

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 10:50am:

Last time I checked it's illegal under international law to put civilians into occupied territories.

You have never actually checked, obviously. But I am glad you ask, in a roundabout way.

Neither the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank belonged to any country before they were occupied by Israel. Indeed, they had been occupied by Jordan (the kingdom of the Palestinians, interestingly) and Egypt.  

Bringing in settlers is prohibited under international law when the territories occupied in the course of a war remain the territory of another sovereign country. This was not the case with Gaza or the West Bank.  The last sovereign country to the whole area was part part of was the Ottoman Empire. Until the birth of Israel, it was all international mandate territory - occupied but not owned.

This also explains why Israel is able to offer the occupied territories to a not yet existing entity, the Palestinian People's Islamic Republic, in exchange for peace. And why this offer is urged and endorsed by all but the Muslims. Israel rules the occupied territories but does not own them - like it owns Israel proper.

Anyway, are you telling us that the Arabs kept other Arabs outa there before '67?

Quote:

You have never actually checked, obviously. But I am glad you ask, in a roundabout way. Neither the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank belonged to any country before they were occupied by Israel. Indeed, they had been occupied by Jordan (the kingdom of the Palestinians, interestingly) and Egypt.

Obviously...


Quote:

The claim by Israel that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the occupied Palestinian territories only de facto has been dismissed by the International Court of Justice,40 which has advised that they are under military occupation, and so subject to the limitations imposed by the Hague Regulations and the Fourth Geneva Convention.41 The Court also found that the Israeli settlements in the occupied territory, including East Jerusalem, have been established in breach of international law. 40 Legal Consequences of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory Advisory Opinion, ICI Reports (2004), paras. 90-101: ILM (2004) 1009. 41 See also UNSC Res. 242 (1967), 252 (1968), 465 (1980), 497 (1981) and 672 (1990); UNGA Res. 2253 and 2254 (1967 and 2949 (XXVII) (1972).

(Handbook of International Law by Anthony Aust, p. 260)

Fourth Geneva Convention

The undersigned Plenipotentiaries of the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference held at Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949, for the purpose of establishing a Convention for the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, have agreed as follows:

Part I. General Provisions

Article 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

Art. 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace-time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.


The Gaza Strip and the West Bank have have not been the territories of any sovereign nation since the collapse of th Ottoman Empire. The dispute turns on the highlighted bit.

Your interpretation of the Fourth Geneva Convention is more binding than that of the International Court of Justice??  ;D

They've already ruled, and your interpretation is not what they ruled. Those civilians who Israel has placed in occupied territories are indeed human shields, who they know will win them international sympathies. The only reason similar claims are made against Hamas, is to pre-empt any accusations that are made against them. They've had a policy of doing this from day one of the creation of Israel. When they captured the Sinai from Egypt, within hours of it being confirmed, hundreds of Jewish families were on their way there with mobile homes and caravans in tow, to be settled as human shields.

The good thing about Sderot is that they put Arab collaborators there  ;D

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 8:28am:

Your interpretation of the Fourth Geneva Convention is more binding than that of the International Court of Justice??  ;D

It is no more binding than mine since opinion are not binding.
That's the beauty of the law, you can argue it.