They may say I do but what to do when the state says, no you don't?

Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
August 11, 2009

FOR many Israeli Jews such as Olga Samosvatov and Nico Tarosyan, getting married is not as easy as it sounds.

To officially tie the knot, both parties must satisfy the country's Orthodox rabbinate that they are Jewish, according to traditional Jewish law.

That means proof of a Jewish mother, or documentary evidence of an Orthodox conversion to Judaism.

Because the rabbinate has a monopoly over Jewish marriages - there is no such thing as a civil marriage in Israel - anyone not recognised as Jewish must travel abroad to get a marriage licence.

Which is not so much of a problem for Ms Samosvatov, 29, who migrated to Israel from Ukraine in 1995 with her Jewish mother.

But for the man she wants to marry, proving his Jewish identity has been impossible.

''My parents did not tell me I was Jewish until I was 12 when neighbours kept painting anti-Semitic graffiti on the door of our home,'' says Mr Tarosyan, 34, who migrated to Israel from Russia in the same year as his wife-to-be.

''At one time, I was scared to go out on to the street because they were beating up Jews. I immigrated to Israel as soon as I finished college and I feel very much at home here and very safe. But this need to prove I am Jewish to the rabbis is humiliating.''

Although Mr Tarosyan's parents were Jewish, and he is an Israeli citizen who served in the Israeli army, because he has no written proof that his mother was Jewish he cannot be legally married in Israel. For their marriage to be officially recognised, the couple must obtain a civil marriage licence abroad that they can then register with Israel's Interior Ministry.

''We plan on flying to Prague in the fall,'' says Mr Tarosyan. One of more than 300,000 Israeli Jews who cannot prove their Jewish identity - most of them Russian migrants - Mr Tarosyan says he and Ms Samosvatov chose to raise awareness of their predicament by taking part in a public Jewish wedding service in Tel Aviv's Dizengoff Square last week.

The service performed by the marriage advocacy group Havaya, which conducts hundreds of private wedding services each year for Israelis not recognised as Jews by the state, was just like any other traditional Jewish wedding.

''It was important for us to get married here in Israel under the chuppah in a meaningful Jewish ceremony together with our family and friends,'' says Ms Samosvatov.

''I hope (the wedding) will serve to change the law in Israel so that people can have whatever type of Jewish wedding they want.''

According to Diti Peleg-Dagani, director of Havaya, couples such as Ms Samosvatov and Mr Tarosyan are committed Israeli citizens who are proud of their country and identify themselves as Jews.

''Yet they suffer this form of discrimination … Unless we change the law, then couples like this will have no choice but to leave Israel,'' says Ms Peleg. She estimates that thousands of couples who cannot get official recognition as Jews or who reject the Orthodox rabbinate's monopoly on marriage travel overseas for their wedding ceremonies.

Itzik Shanan, a director of the New Israel Fund, a philanthropic organisation that provides financial support to organisations such as Havaya, says the law must reflect freedom of choice in marriage.

''I was born in Israel, I speak Hebrew, I went to a Jewish school, I served in the army, and both my parents are Jewish,'' he says. ''When it came time to marry, I went abroad because I did not want to give this power to the rabbinate.

''Change doesn't seem likely under this Government, but as long as public pressure grows, more and more political bodies will understand that unless the laws are reformed, religious dogma will divide Jews irrevocably.''

Source: The Age

So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims?
Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim?

Quote:

So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims? Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim?

Yes, and yes... but what on earth has that got to do with this article? Other than being your pathetic attempt to justify/normalise everything Jewish?

This article isn't about a Jew marrying a non-Jew,, it's about the ridiculous requirement of a Jew to prove his mother was a Jew to prove he is a Jew. Sorry, but no such ridiculous requirement exists for Muslims.

Did you just lie to me?   ::)

I've just read many Muslims talking about it and guess what...  

Muslim women must marry Muslim men.
Muslims can marry outside Islam as long as their partner converts.  Which is kind like saying No and No Abu.

tsk, tsk, tsk.

Not to mention that you cannot change to another religion and live.

But again getting off topic.

on with the topic, I think it's pretty elitist and isolationist for jews to only marry jews.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 11^th, 2009 at 9:03pm:

on with the topic, I think it's pretty elitist and isolationist for jews to only marry jews.

No different to Catholics only marrying Catholics in a Catholic Church.

no different at all.

they have a wider selection (more kaffliks), but it is a religious thing.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 11^th, 2009 at 9:13pm:

no different at all. they have a wider selection (more kaffliks), but it is a religious thing.

An accepted reason for a Papal marriage annulment if a Catholic / Protestant marriage goes kunt-up.

Not one to stick up for Catholics, but I think you'll find the church has changed a bit since the 1940s

Quote:

Did you just lie to me?

No.


Quote:

Muslim women must marry Muslim men.

Yes, they must.


Quote:

Muslims can marry outside Islam as long as their partner converts.

If the partner converted, then it wouldn't be marrying outside Islam then would it?

Again, all this has nothing  to do with the topic. The topic is about a Jew marrying a Jew. Did you even read it? Or you just jumped head first into it, defending it before you even  knew what it was about, by trying to claim Muslims do the same thing that you assumed the article was about?

sprint,


Quote:

on with the topic, I think it's pretty elitist and isolationist for jews to only marry jews

Another silly sausage who didn't even read the article? It's about a Jews marrrying Jews, the point to the article is that they must prove their Jewishness before being allowed to marry, by proving their mother was a Jew. Please read before replying,

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2009 at 4:07pm:

Quote: So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims? Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim? Yes, and yes... but what on earth has that got to do with this article? Other than being your pathetic attempt to justify/normalise everything Jewish? This article isn't about a Jew marrying a non-Jew,, it's about the ridiculous requirement of a Jew to prove his mother was a Jew to prove he is a Jew. Sorry, but no such ridiculous requirement exists for Muslims.

What? Only Muslims are allowed to do ridiculous things now? Otherwise you'll riot?

Jews are entitled to be as ridiculous as you on occassion. For them it's a holiday from being always smarter than you.

Took you 14 minutes to think that up?

They're obviously a lot smarter than you, since you're so willing to do their leg work for them.

So... can anyone actually respond without trying to twist this to be something related to Islam? Or do you all admit to being too intellectually deficient to even attempt such a feat?

What's that favourite word of yours sprint... is it 'deflection'?? And no doubt Calanen will be in soon to give us a little tu quoque..

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2009 at 11:58pm:

Took you 14 minutes to think that up? They're obviously a lot smarter than you, since you're so willing to do their leg work for them. So... can anyone actually respond without trying to twist this to be something related to Islam? Or do you all admit to being too intellectually deficient to even attempt such a feat? What's that favourite word of yours sprint... is it 'deflection'?? And no doubt Calanen will be in soon to give us a little tu quoque..

What 14 minutes?

I am not monitoring your posts - that's for the ASIO boys. I'm Mossad, remember?

hey Abooo...you're so dumb you don't even realise when you contradict yourself.
In fact you're so dumb you repeat stuff I already wrote then don't realise you are arguing against yourself and proving you lied. :D ;D :D ;D ::)

There's no lie and no contradiction. You asked this question:


Quote:

So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims?

Muslims can marry non-Muslims.  I can marry a Christian or Jewish woman (so long as she is chaste and observant of her religion), and she doesn't have to convert. Therefore I answered your question truthfully.

Ah...  no you didn't Abu.


Quote:

MUSLIM WOMAN AND NON-MUSLIM MAN: ..... And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikun** till they believe in Allah alone and verily a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik, even though he pleases you....[2:221] ** Al-Mushrikun=>Pagans, idolators, polytheist and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His messanger Prophet Muhammad SAW) - [6] Islam considers the husband head-of-the-family and therefore requires that a Muslima cannot marry a non-Muslim because she will be under the authority of a non-muslim husband. He may prevent her from carrying out her religious obligations by either pressuring her or physically abusing her. But it is not the sole reason for imposing the restriction. The situation is considered very damaging for the woman to practise Islam afterwards and even worse for the kids in such marriages.  There are NO conditions mentioned under which a Muslim woman IS allowed to get married or remain married to a non-Muslim husband after she has accepted Islam. Therefore, even if she has freedom to practise Islam after marriage, she is NOT allowed to enter into an inter-faith marriage.

and again...


Quote:

MARRIAGE WITH KUFFARS: Marriages between Muslims and atheists are not permissible at all. In such cases, the man or woman should accept Islam before entering into a shar'ai legal "nikaah."

and again...

MUSLIM MAN AND NON-MUSLIM WOMAN:

MARRIAGE WITH CHRISTIANS AND JEWS:  The marriages between Muslim men and CERTAIN non-Muslim women is allowed.  However, certain restricitions exist on such marriages, especially if they occur
in non-Muslim lands where Islamic law and religion is not
prevailing.

Here I am translating the "fatwaa" from Maulana Muhammad Yousuf
Ludhianvi, a well-known Muslim scholar from Pakistan, answering
a question regarding the shar'aii position of marriages in the
US with non-Muslim women. This question was asked by a Pakistani
Muslim, living in the US, and it appeared in Maulana's column
that is published every Friday in a daily newspaper, "Jang". He
interprets the Islamic law as following:

1- Non-Muslim women, to whom Muslim men can marry, are
the women from Christian and Jewish religions who are residents
of "Daar-ul-Islam****" nations where Islamic law prevails) and
who are thereby called, "Dhi'mmi" (those who give Jazzia instead
of Zakaat in an Islamic state??), but NOT the residents of "dar
al-kufr" (where the kuffar or non-Islamic rule exist).  To these
women, marriage is allowed but is "mukrooh tanzihi." (I can't
translate it properly)

2- With Christian or Jewish women, who are resident of "dar
a-harb"****, the nikah (the marriage contract) will be valid,
but will be a "mukrooh Tahrimi" (worse than tanzihi) situation.
The act which is "mukrooh tarhimi" is so close to "haraam" (not
permissible at all) that it is ALMOST "haraam" and is "na'jaiz"
ie. not legal. The man involved will be responsible for
committing an act which is so close to a state of "sin".
     **** Victor Danner describes "Dar al-Islam" as : the
     House of Islam, or the Islamic world; the Islamic
     community, where submission to the Divine Will reigns;
     Opposed to dar- al-harb ( the non-Islamic community)

3- It is required that the women should be practising their
religion at the time of marriage and they are not practically
"Mulhid" (atheist). To any women, who doesn't believe in God,
religion, God's message and doesn't practise any religion at
all, the "nikaah" (marriage) will be INVALID and according to
"shari'ah" (Islamic Law), such a couple is involved in sin.

4- If any Muslim marries a woman from "People of the Books", the
children, by shar'iah (Islamic law) are considered to be Muslim.
For instance, often, in "dar al-harb," the kids adopt the
religion of their mother; and, sometimes, a marriage is arranged
upon agreements between the couples that half of kids will adopt
mother's and the other half will follow father's religion. If a
Muslim man agrees to ANY of such terms accepting the kids to be
raised non-Muslims, the person will be regarded as a "Murtid"
(the one who has denied Islam) because he has allowed his kids
to become "kaafir" who may have been brought up in Islamic
religion. Anyone who willingly and knowingly allows/agrees for
his kids to become "kaafir" is regarded as "kaafir." He is out
of the Islamic circle. If he had any Muslim woman in his
"nikaah" before this marriage, the Muslim woman is free from his
bond (because a Muslim woman can't remain married a
non-Muslim).

5- Since some of our naive Muslim youngmen, living in the West,
get married to the christian women in their countries. And
since, usually, the local courts allow the women to get the
custody of kids and the divorce settlement in their favor, our
youngmen are "khusar al-duniyaa wal'-aakhiraah", means the
wanderer or lost in this world and the Hereafter. Since,
according to sharia'ah, the "al-maa'roof ka'almashrrot", meaning
whatever is prevailing or common practise in the society is
being accepted in a marriage contract.  It means a Muslim man,
by getting married under these circumstances in these countries,
is knowingly agreeing that the woman may, in case of divorce,
gets the custody of the kids and is free to raise them
afterwards as she pleases.

6- For all the above stated reasons, in non-Muslim countries, it
is not allowed for Muslim youngmen to marry Christian women.

For
the reason #3 (woman not practising a religion), the "nikaah"
isn't even valid. Since the reason #4, leads to "kufr" and he
becomes "murtid", the marriage to any Muslim wife becomes
invalid. The reason #5 is not apllicable, if the local laws do
not usually grant custody to woman or if Muslim man hasn't
agreed to any "kufriaah" terms (such as accepting some kids to
be raised as non-Muslims). "Haaza ma' indee, wal'Allah ilm
bis'swaab."

As it is clear, that Maulana Yousuf's position is extremely
strict on the issue of getting married to non-Muslim women in
the West. But so is the seriousness of such situations. A
scholar at Dar ul-Noor hifz school and Al-Farooq Masjid,
Atlanta, Dr. Abdul Ghaffar, recommends that if a Muslim is
already married to a non-Muslima, he should REMAIN married to
her. He should be kind and passionate to her and facilitate her
understand of true Islam. He should reflect Islam in his
character and encourage her to become Muslim voluntarily before
kids are born into such marriage. At that time, I found out the
Al-Farooq Masjid doesn't even administer ANY inter-faith
marriages.

pt 1.

pt 2.

The best option under these circumstances is to introduce the
woman to Islam and WAIT for her to accept Islam before getting
married. Imposing any firm conditions of her accepting Islam
before marriage will NOT do any good.  Because, if a woman is
willing to accept Islam merely to get married to a Muslim man
that she likes, she will be most likely to leave Islam if the
marriage ends up in a divorce or even if the marriage becomes
unpleasant for her.

It should be desireable that a woman accepts Islam solely for
the reason that she likes Islam. Any forceful acceptance of
Islam is not likely to be permanent nor very suitable for a
happy marriage. If the woman is not a Muslim by her own choice,
then in case of divorce, she may leave Islam and be free to date
and marry a non-Muslim. Her new family may ultimately decide how
to raise the Muslim man's children. This situation should never
be acceptable to any Muslim man.

liar liar pantaloons on fire Abu...

So Abu...  would you marry a Christian or a Jew?

You asked if a Muslim can marry a non-Muslim, the Qur'an clearly states he can, end of story.

If you want to know if a Muslim can specifically marry an atheist, or if a Muslim woman specifically can marry a non-Muslim, then ask, that wasn't what you asked though...

All you asked was if a Muslim can marry a non-Muslim, and I answered you quite clearly and honestly. You are the only liar here, lying to yourself.


Quote:

MARRIAGE WITH KUFFARS

Just out of curiousity, which anti-Islamic site did you get this from? I can't see an authentic source of Islam writing "kuffars", since anyone who knows anything about Islam or Arabic would know kuffar is already plural (of kafir), so putting an 's' on the end would not only be redundant, it would just sound plain stupid.

Still lying through your teeth?
tsk, tsk, tsk...

You know what was being asked.

For a start female Muslims cannot marry a non-Muslim.
Another point is that no Muslim can marry an athiest.
Yet another that a Muslim male can marry a Jew or Christian as long as they are moral and as long as they will convert.

You lied buddy.
Through your teeth.
You said yourself if they convert they are Muslim...  shot yourself in your giant foot buddy.

Females in a marriage to a Muslim must convert otherwise there will be no marriage.

Thank you once again for showing the mendacity, hypocrisy and dishonesty of Muslims.

Oh BTW I got it from a very pro-islam...  islamic site.
Oh wait I forgot it must be a fake or anti-Islam because all muslims have perfect language skills.  :D

Quote:

You know what was being asked.

You asked what you asked. I answered what you asked, not what I am supposed to have guessed you wanted to ask. If you can't even construct the question the way you intend it, then you're not  really capable of partaking in the discussion.

Again, I will post your own question for you to try and comprehend...


Quote:

So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims?

The answer, yes.

If you mean something else, then by all means, ask it. If not, stop carrying on like a little child (pants on fire??).


Quote:

Yet another that a Muslim male can marry a Jew or Christian as long as they are moral and as long as they will convert.

This is clear falsehood. There's no requirement for a Jewish/Christian wife of a Muslim to convert.


Quote:

You said yourself if they convert they are Muslim...  shot yourself in your giant foot buddy.

You're really not normal. I'm starting to wonder how old you actually are. I'm sure I remember clicking something when signing up to this forum to say I was over 13. Did you lie at that point?

Either that or you're just not all there.

Face it you are a lying disingenuous hypocrite.

I like it when you quote me and still lie.

"Can Muslims marry non-Muslism?"

Abu says...  yes.

But the truth is...  Female Muslims cant...  and Males can't if the woman doesn't convert and they are going to have children.

Please stop lying and change your pantaloons... your story is starting to smell.

Oh and I also like it when you refuse to answer questions.

Would you marry a Jew or a Christian?
But hey, I'd rather you not answer than lie.
Would they have to convert?

::) ::) ::)

Mate don't you feel embaressed?
I feel embaressed for you.

No...  I'm happy to tell the truth and show you up for what you are.

You should find a hole and hide away for a while.

I think it is sad you are so brainwashed and moronic you cant see reality.

STATED POSITIONS [Grendel, abu].....



abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2009 at 4:07pm:

Quote: [Grendel asks....] So Abu can Muslims marry non-Muslims? Can non-Muslims remain non-Muslims after marriage to a Muslim? Yes, and yes... but what on earth has that got to do with this article? Other than being your pathetic attempt to justify/normalise everything Jewish? This article isn't about a Jew marrying a non-Jew,, it's about the ridiculous requirement of a Jew to prove his mother was a Jew to prove he is a Jew. Sorry, but no such ridiculous requirement exists for Muslims.

Quote:

[in response, Grendel asks....] Did you [abu] just lie to me?

THE FACTS......

ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, instructs moslems NOT to marry unbelieving women, and confirms the similar prohibition for moslem daughters engaging in 'multicultural' 'tolerance' with non-moslems of the opposite sex.

Moslem daughters who marry non-moslems, effectively, become non-moslems.
.....hence the high 'death rates' among young moslem women, who leave their families, and their culture.

"Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.221


The Hadith.....

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260




Google,
muslim daughter honour killings UK
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslim+daughter+honour+killings+UK+&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=o&oq=





++++++




And of course, our own abu_rashid, is a devout moslem, yet abu knows nothing of these ISLAMIC determinations, and doctrines, concerning those things.
/sarc off

What is that sound i hear....?

"Jingle bells! Jingle bells! Jingle all the way......"

Quote:

ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, instructs moslems NOT to marry unbelieving women

That is for polytheists. Muslim men may marry Jewish or Christian women (who are practising and chaste), and therefore I answered Grendel's question truthfully.

Qur'an 5:5 "This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)."

Nevermind the facts though, never stops you any other time. As I've stated before, you are an apostle of falsehood.

Only a nutter like you could be so foolish as to try and defend his ridiculously defeated position.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 7:14pm:

Quote: ISLAM's highest authority, Allah, in the Koran, instructs moslems NOT to marry unbelieving women That is for polytheists. Muslim men may marry Jewish or Christian women (who are practising and chaste), and therefore I answered Grendel's question truthfully. Qur'an 5:5 "This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)." Nevermind the facts though, never stops you any other time. As I've stated before, you are an apostle of falsehood. Only a nutter like you could be so foolish as to try and defend his ridiculously defeated position.

abu,

As you well know, early in his proselytizing career Mohammed tried to 'draw in' local Jewish and Christian communities, into ISLAM.

At first, Mohammed was very conciliatory towards local Jews and Christians [example Qur'an 5:5] , but they rejected Mohammed's false and absurd 'vision'.




When Mohammed saw 'the writing on the wall', his demeanour towards local Jews and Christians changed.

And Mohammed deemed Jews and Christians 'unbelievers', and cursed.

For most of his life Mohammed besieged their communities, butchered Jewish and Christian men, and took their women and children as slaves.

And on his death-bed, Mohammed re-confirmed Allah's curse on all Jews and Christians,

The Hadith.....

"On his death-bed Allah's Apostle....said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians....."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.056.660

The 'unbelief' of Jews and Christians, was confirmed by Allah's curse upon them.





So now abu, how could you an 'innocent' moslem, join himself with a cursed person??

ISLAMIC scripture itself, has advice on this point....



From the Koran....

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you......"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.118


"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.144


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.008
v. 8-11


"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.089


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051
[i.e. those 'moslems' who make friends with unbelievers, ARE unbelievers]




abu,

If this assertion, by myself, is incorrect, and Christians are not cursed by Allah, and are TRULY regarded by moslems as their friends, then why are moslem women prohibited from marrying Christian men, on pain of death?



My opinion is.....

All good moslems are false, untrustworthy, lying, treacherous people.

TO THEIR FACES, pretending to be tolerant of non-moslems, but in their hearts, cursing them,


ABC Radio National Religion interview transcript  - "The Undercover Mosque: The return"
".....Stephen Crittenden: .....your program highlights a certain kind of duplicity. When they're caught out, individuals don't miss a bit, they just say they've been taken out of context....
David Henshaw: ......Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue.....
A GROUP OF CHRISTIANS VISITING THE MOSQUE and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat them kindly and talk about 'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'.
JUST AS SOON AS THAT GROUP OF VISITORS LEAVES, THE LANGUAGE CHANGES COMPLETELY. 'CHRISTIANITY IS VILE', the preacher says.....
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2360820.htm#transcript



Google,
smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=smile+to+the+face+%22while+our+hearts+curse+them%22&btnG=Search&meta=i

Muhammad (pbuh) was married to a Christian woman, and remained married to her until his death (even after you claim he 'lost patience' with the Jews & Christians), and she bore him children... all of this destroys any of your pathetic arguments.

Not to mention the millions, perhaps billions, of Muslims throughout history, who, under Shari'ah rule of the Caliphate married quite lawfully to Jewish and Christian women.

Face it, you are an apostle of falsehood. You've come only to preach to us lies and fabrications.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 8:23pm:

Muhammad (pbuh) was married to a Christian woman, and remained married to her until his death (even after you claim he 'lost patience' with the Jews & Christians), and she bore him children... all of this destroys any of your pathetic arguments.

abu,

I know that fact is true.



So is this fact.....

"On his death-bed Allah's Apostle....said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians....."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.056.660

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 8:25pm:

Not to mention the millions, perhaps billions, of Muslims throughout history, who, under Shari'ah rule of the Caliphate married quite lawfully to Jewish and Christian women. Face it, you are an apostle of falsehood. You've come only to preach to us lies and fabrications.

Yadda holds up a mirror to reflect, abu's words back to him.


abu,

ISLAM is a death cult.

And it is taking you and yours, to hell.

Quote:

That is for polytheists. Muslim men may marry Jewish or Christian women (who are practising and chaste), and therefore I answered Grendel's question truthfully.

No you didn't...

I did.

A half truth...  is NOT THE TRUTH Abu...  unless you are saying all Muslims believe half-truths to be the truth.

Grendel wrote on Aug 15^th, 2009 at 9:37pm:

Quote: That is for polytheists. Muslim men may marry Jewish or Christian women (who are practising and chaste), and therefore I answered Grendel's question truthfully. No you didn't... I did. A half truth...  is NOT THE TRUTH Abu...  unless you are saying all Muslims believe half-truths to be the truth.

Moslems have 'discounted' Jewish and Christian scriptures as 'corrupt'.

Which is ironic, as moslems themselves claim, that their own religion has its roots in Jewish and Christian histories.



Personally, i believe that Mohammed and moslems, just don't like what Jewish and Christian scriptures clearly contain.

i.e. A condemnation of their own vile, and false, and violent, 'religion'.


e.g.

Psalms 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing [deceit]: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.