Would a 1 litre glass bowl of water sitting in the same cold room temperature as a 4 litre glass bowl of water end up being colder or warmer?

mantra wrote on Jul 1^st, 2009 at 2:26pm:

Would a 1 litre glass bowl of water sitting in the same cold room temperature as a 4 litre glass bowl of water end up being colder or warmer?

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They would both end up at the same temperature - room temperature.

1 litre of water would get warmer quicker than 4 litres in a warm room - this is why I am having difficulty figuring out the reverse. Wouldn't the increased volume of water make a difference to the coolness of the water?

I was given this little warm water fish - and he has two bowls. I've put him in the small one because it feels warmer, although he hates it and prefers the bigger bowl which is his Summer bowl.  But as these fish are susceptible to water temperatures, I thought the smaller bowl wouldn't get as cold because I always assumed - the deeper the water the cooler it got.

But I'll take your word for it though Muso and thanks.

mantra wrote on Jul 1^st, 2009 at 3:46pm:

1 litre of water would get warmer quicker than 4 litres in a warm room - this is why I am having difficulty figuring out the reverse. Wouldn't the increased volume of water make a difference to the coolness of the water? I was given this little warm water fish - and he has two bowls. I've put him in the small one because it feels warmer, although he hates it and prefers the bigger bowl which is his Summer bowl.  But as these fish are susceptible to water temperatures, I thought the smaller bowl wouldn't get as cold because I always assumed - the deeper the water the cooler it got. But I'll take your word for it though Muso and thanks.

Mantra,

The difference between 4 litres and 1 litres in terms of cooling is minimal.

Generally, the larger the body of water, the greater the total thermal inertia. For example, a swimming pool will tend to reach a temperature somewhere around the average temperature between maximum and minimum.

There are three main factors that will determine the water temperature  

1. The rate of heat dissipation between the water and the ambient air,

2. The relative humidity of the ambient air.
3. The presence or absence of air currents.

With a lower RH, you tend to get higher evaporation rates, which tends to cool the water slightly (but not significantly) . Think of dry and wet bulb temperatures.

The RH that is important is that of the vapour space above the water surface. This will tend towards equilibrium if there are fewer air currents.

I'm just trying to translate this, because even a couple of degrees can make a big difference.


Quote:

The rate of heat dissipation between the water and the ambient air,

So if the water was a moderate temperature - it would maintain that temperature as long as there was only a small outlet open to allow less water to evaporate - excluding air currents & humidity of course.


Quote:

Generally, the larger the body of water, the greater the total thermal inertia

Does that mean the larger the body of water - depending on the room temperature, the more extreme (whether it be hot or cold) it will be? This is contradictory to what you first stated, so I've probably misunderstood "thermal inertia" which I had to look up.  :-?

I'll put the little fish back in the big bowl and put some sort of cover over it to protect it from evaporation and hopefully he'll survive the Winter. By touch - the water in the larger bowl just seems so much colder.

Thanks Muso for your explanation. It was interesting, although a little challenging.   :)

Mantra, the smaller body of water would cool down quicker, just like the warming example. But they would reach the same temperature eventually, assuming the room temperature is constant.

I really don't think it will make much difference. For all intents and purposes the water will be the same temperature in both after a very short period of time. The effects I was talking about are very minimal.

Also if you have fish in there, don't go blocking the top or they'll die from lack of oxygen.

What s probably more critical is to make sure that you get rid of the chlorine, or you'll kill the fish. You can get drops for that from the pet shop.

Put the fish in the larger bowl. The temperature will not vary as much as the smaller bowl. The smaller bowl will get a lot colder on cold nights.

You can also get cheap fish tank heaters.

Thanks for the tips - FD & Muso. I've had fish on and off for years, but I was given an unwanted Chinese fighting fish. I don't want to get into heaters at this stage as I've had them before & they break too easily. He's survived since the beginning of Summer - just wanted to see if I could get him to survive through winter.

There are plenty of plants in the tank for oxygen, but in the larger bowl he was up at the top all the time and barely moved in the cold mornings, whereas in the small bowl he hovers around the middle and seems a bit more active.

Why I asked about water temperatures is because the deeper you go into the sea - the colder it gets - whereas shallow water tends to stay more tepid. I thought the same might apply to smaller contained volumes of water.

Quote:

Why I asked about water temperatures is because the deeper you go into the sea - the colder it gets - whereas shallow water tends to stay more tepid. I thought the same might apply to smaller contained volumes of water.

Not really. You need fairly long distances for a temperature gradient like that to build up.

Hi Mantra,

You've probably already done this but just in case

The Chinese/Siamese Fighting Fish, also known as the Betta are beautiful fish and can live up to 7 years if properly taken care of. However, most only survive 2-3 years because of the lack of care.


#1.


- Tank size: Absolute minimum is 1 gallon. The best size is 2.5 - 5 gallons
- Do NOT keep them with other Bettas or fish resembling the colorful betta
- Heater is needed to keep the tank at a stable temperature of 75-80 Farenheit
- A low current filter is needed for tanks 2.5 gallon and larger. Don't forget to cycle your tank beforehand
- For smaller tanks/bowls without a filter, change all of the water once weekly
- Make sure the water is dechlorinated (use bottled water or get a water conditioner)

#2.

- Do overfeed
- The do not variy the food to much or they get confused.
reats) weekly and betta pellets or flakes
- I highly recommend the Hikari brand
- Feed as much as your Betta will eat in two minutes, once daily
- Do not feed them one day of the week (except for a piece of a boiled pea) to clear their digestive systems


http://www.instructables.com/id/How_to_Properly_Care_for_a_Betta_Fish/





#3.

Watch your fish for any signs of diseases

If there are any signs of diseases, try to diagnose him and treat him immediately.
-------------------------------


They don't like being on their own put in another fish for company. Purchase your feed at the store and feed accordingly. Make sure you change the water and clean the fish bowl on a regular basis.

ANSWER

I have a beautiful peach one in my community tank and i have to disagree with what i have read here totally.

I have had a chinese fighting fish in my tank with success for many years and as long as you do not have them with fish like angel fish then you are fine. you can only have one male in a tank as they will fight to the death but you can have many females in the same tank and they will like in harmony. you must make sure that you provide fish with places to hide and feed them properly, to be honest what i find is becsuse i feed my fish a mixed dried food for tropical fish and weekly give then live food in the form of blood worms and daphnia they live in harmony.

to put a fish in a bowl is cruel and to be honest they look far better swimming freely in a nice tank and not in a small fish bowl

If want to have just the Chinese fighting fish. Put only one male with 3 or more females as they will chase a single female to death.Never have more than 1 male together or near to each other it does stress them and can kill them.They do do very well as mentioned above in tanks with other species of fish.

That was excellent information Locutius. I haven't kept tropical fish for years and didn't want to start again, but this is a rescue case. I have a variety of ornate tanks to suit most species of fish, but I didn't want to have to go down the path of setting up a tropical tank again.

He was given to me in one of those tiny little one cup plastic containers (cruel) and I put him in a 1-2 litre bowl, then transferred him to a 4-6 litre bowl where he grew quite considerably, but it has just seemed too cold for him lately in the larger bowl. I've been told to keep him by himself which I don't like doing, but was advised that as soon as he's mated, he'll eat the babies and females and any other species of fish will nibble his fins and tail off.

Now that he's back in the little bowl for the winter - I've been adding a half cup of warm water a couple of times a day, which he loves. There is a lot of fresh weed and I've been feeding him the BettaMin flakes, but have given him Betta Food minute pellets the last couple of days - and you're right - he has become confused, so I'll stick to the flakes.

I don't like any animal being alone, but I'm not sure what sort of companion fish I should get him. His water is always treated, but he has had (ever since I got him) stress marks on his fins and looks a bit limp. But he's hanging in there.

Your post said "do overfeed" (was that a mistake) - I probably do, but there are a few little snails which seem to clean up the excess and I only clean his bowls about once a month.

I will definitely try the "pea" tomorrow - I tried peas on my disgusting old giant slugs (lungfish) and they won't touch them.

Sorry had not gotten back soon on this Mantra. Hoe is the little bloke going?

As for companions, they do quite well with a lot of fish I found but suufer from the aggressive tail biters (Barbs) I think they were called. While they are aggressive with other males of the same same species they are actually quite placid.

If Mantra put her head in a four litre bucket of water, and a 1 litre bucket of water, would we still be able to hear her talking about how good Multiculturalism is in:

(a) the 4 litre bucket
(b) the 1 litre bucket
(c) the Mariana Trench 7 miles underwater;
(d) it's a trick question, mantra would not be stopped from talking with any volume of water.

Calanen wrote on Jul 11^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

If Mantra put her head in a four litre bucket of water, and a 1 litre bucket of water, would we still be able to hear her talking about how good Multiculturalism is in: (a) the 4 litre bucket (b) the 1 litre bucket (c) the Mariana Trench 7 miles underwater; (d) it's a trick question, mantra would not be stopped from talking with any volume of water.

Talking is basic human right respected in democratic countries and on democratic forums but suppressed by dictators in moslem and atheistic countries and forums.


But back to topic:
Mantra, you can stabilise water temperature of the bowl by placing the bowl into styrofoam box. You can get the box from a green grocery shop after they emptied  broccolis or such out of it.

tallowood wrote on Jul 11^th, 2009 at 11:46am:

Calanen wrote on Jul 11th, 2009 at 10:48am: If Mantra put her head in a four litre bucket of water, and a 1 litre bucket of water, would we still be able to hear her talking about how good Multiculturalism is in: (a) the 4 litre bucket (b) the 1 litre bucket (c) the Mariana Trench 7 miles underwater; (d) it's a trick question, mantra would not be stopped from talking with any volume of water. Talking is basic human right respected in democratic countries and on democratic forums but suppressed by dictators in moslem and atheistic countries and forums. But back to topic: Mantra, you can stabilise water temperature of the bowl by placing the bowl into styrofoam box. You can get the box from a green grocery shop after they emptied  broccolis or such out of it.

Thank you Tallow and I actually don't talk much at all compared to some - I am quite introverted.

I've been wrapping a towel at night around the large bowl which I've put him in - but the styrofoam sounds like a great idea. I might get some I can wrap around the bowl and stitch up the sides like a beer cooler.

I took Muso's information on water evaporation & put some glad wrap on the top (with some breathing space) and I add a couple of cups of hot water a day. Although he's sluggish - he's still eating and looking at me with those little turtle eyes of his.

All this for a $2 fish - shows how kind I am.

And Calanen - I have a suggestion with what you can do with your two cents worth of comments - but I'm too polite to say it.

FD and Muso were correct in their water theory, although admittedly I didn't put all my faith in it initially.

The little fish survived the remainder of the cold, cold winter in the larger bowl, although he's battled scarred, scalded and deformed from all the different hot and cold water temperatures he was subject to during my periods of uncertainty.

Next winter I'll leave him in the large bowl where the temperatures remain fairly stable. By surviving the winter and my ministrations - he will survive anything now.

It was an interesting exercise.  

Yay! your fish survived  ;) That's the main thing.

mantra wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 9:03am:

It was an interesting exercise.

Not so interesting for the fish... :P

Soren wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 9:51am:

mantra wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:03am: It was an interesting exercise.   Not so interesting for the fish... :P

;D ;D

No it wasn't. I think he was scared of me for a while - especially when he saw me looming with a glass of steaming water. It was touch and go for a while, but he's bounced back more resilient than ever.

mantra wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 11:56am:

Soren wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:51am: mantra wrote on Oct 20th, 2009 at 9:03am: It was an interesting exercise.   Not so interesting for the fish... :P ;D ;D No it wasn't. I think he was scared of me for a while - especially when he saw me looming with a glass of steaming water. It was touch and go for a while, but he's bounced back more resilient than ever.

Don't worry, for fish the world starts anew every 8 seconds.

Soren wrote on Oct 20^th, 2009 at 12:00pm:

Don't worry, for fish the world starts anew every 8 seconds.

I think that's a rumour spread by fishermen. Fish, in my experience, feel pain, have brains and fairly long term memories. FD would probably contradict that though.

lol, actually they do test different animals to see how their brains work, and evidence is on the fishermens side of this argument.
What surprised me with these sorts of studies was that horses brains are not nearly as advanced as people gave them credit for.
Apparently they have very short retention times as well, which means that how they are best trained, needs to be adapted to fit in with their abilities.

I wonder whether they have it right about horses. They are highly sensitive animals and their nervous nature could be an inhibitor in their memory retention.

You have to "know" an animal before you can make these judgements. Even an apparently "simple, small brained" animal can communicate and show signs of surprising intelligence if it is in the right environment.

Yes I heard of that experiment with horses which found them to be less than intelligent, but as a previous horse owner, I'd tend to disagree.
My poor old horsy used to be able to open our back door (with a round knob) and he once walked right into the house. He also had a habit of opening the chaff shed and filling himself with oats.
He knew how to do a lot of things that he wasn't purposely trained to do as well as those that he was trained for, and sometimes I'm sure he even knew what I was thinking.
Maybe the horses in the experiment were just too damned smart to fall for human crap.