Commodifying Honor in Female Sexuality: Honor Killings in Palestine

Suzanne Ruggi


The family constitutes the fundamental building-block of Palestinian society. Family status is largely dependent upon its honor, much of which is determined by the respectability of its daughters, who can damage it irreparably by the perceived misuse of their sexuality

Every year, hundreds of women and girls are murdered in the Middle East by male family members. The honor killing-the execution of a female family member for perceived misuse of her sexuality-is a thorny social and political issue. Palestinian activists campaigning for equality find it difficult to stop the killings altogether. Legitimacy for such murders stems from a complex code of honor ingrained in the consciousness of some sectors of Palestinian society.

Given that honor killings often remain a private family affair, no official statistics are available on the practice or its frequency. According to a November 1997 report of the Woman's Empowerment Project published in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, there were 20 honor killings in Gaza and the West Bank in 1996. One representative of the group added, "We know there are more but no one publicizes it." Similarly, an unofficial report given to the Palestinian Women's Working Society stated that "recently" 40 women have been killed for honor in Gaza. The report defined neither the period in which these murders took place nor the exact circumstances. During the summer of 1997, Khaled Al-Qudra, then Attorney General in the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), told Sout Al-Nissa' (Women's Voices), a supplement published by the Women's Affairs Technical Committee (WATC), that he suspects that 70 percent of all murders in Gaza and the West Bank are honor killings.

Though a growing number of Palestinians find honor killings unacceptable, the practice continues. "No one knows the magnitude, because no one has conducted a study," said Lisa Taraki, associate professor of sociology at Birzeit University. Women's organizations have mobilized against the killings, but are furious that the practice continues in spite of the legal prohibitions. The killings violate the right to life upheld in versions of the draft Basic Law and openly discriminate against women. The woman alone is punished for the "crime;" whereas the man, who may have raped his victim, is considered an innocent party and often walks free.

The honor killing emerged in the pre-Islamic era, according to Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University. It is, he believes, "a complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society." He argues that the honor killing stemmed from the patriarchal and patrilineal society's interest in maintaining strict control over designated familial power structures. "What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honor killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power."

In an Islamic context, punishment for relationships out of wedlock is stipulated as 100 lashes if the woman is single, or if married, death by stoning. In both cases, however, there must be four witnesses willing to testify that the sexual act took place; conditions which make punishment difficult.

Examples cited by women's organizations show that women are also punished, even murdered, on the suspicion of having been involved in a sexual relationship. Victims of rape have met the same fate. Maintaining honor is deemed a woman's responsibility, whether or not she has been educated about sex or consented to the act. This illustrates that the ideological web of honor sanctions the honor killing for more than reproductive or religious reasons. Ultimately, says Kanaana, this code "prevents women from having sexual freedom or the right to use their sexual powers the way they want."

Murder for Family Honor

The family constitutes the fundamental building-block of Palestinian society. Family status is largely dependent upon its honor, much of which is determined by the respectability of its daughters, who can damage it irreparably by the perceived misuse of their sexuality. "The honor of a family is very dependent on a woman's virginity," said Shadia Sarraj of the Women's Empowerment Project at the Gaza Community Mental Health Project. A woman's virginity is the property of the men around her, first her father, later a gift for her husband; a virtual dowry as she graduates to marriage. In this context, a woman's 'ard (honor) is a commodity which must be guarded by a network of family and community members. The woman is guarded externally by her behavior and dress code and internally by keeping her hymen intact. Sexual relations out of wedlock do exist among young Palestinians, especially in student communities where women are living away from the watchful eye of their families. However, for most women, it is considered 'eib (shameful) to be seen alone with a male non-family member.

Centuries of rule by various foreign authorities have reinforced the family as a location of power in Palestinian society. Even today, the family is directly responsible for defending its honor. In many communities, this means that murder in the name of honor is family business, not frowned upon by the local community. As a result, the murderer is unlikely to be reprimanded in court.

Though she knows of many cases, Manal Kleibo Zarf, a female attorney at the Women's Center for Legal Aid and Counseling (WCLAC), has never been asked to prosecute an honor killing. She believes this is because Jordanian Law still applies to the West Bank. Article 341 considers murder a legitimate act of defense when "The act of killing another or harming another was committed as an act in defense of his life, or his honor, or somebody else's life or honor."

In a forthcoming publication on law and the status of women by the Women's Studies Program at Birzeit University, Penny Johnson writes that, regarding personal status, the Egyptian and Jordanian legal systems of the West Bank and Gaza are "based on a well-developed legal theory with a clearly defined model of family and gender relations that is patriarchal, patrilocal and patrilineal." This legal framework matches the prevailing ideology, and social and economic circumstances in the West Bank and Gaza. The single mother is not only an outcast of her community, she also has no role in the patriarchal legal system. Ostracized and without a husband or access to a social welfare system, an unmarried mother has no economic support. The honor killing, as an inherited mechanism, deters and eliminates deviation from the honor code, in order to perpetuate the traditional clusters of patriarchal familial power.

The "Battle"

Although honor killings constitute a violation of human rights, their precedent in tradition makes the issue complex for the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), and the emerging Palestinian legal system. Women's organizations have sought to strike efficiently and immediately at the new crystallizing power structures.

The lack of reliable statistics makes it difficult for activists to campaign against honor killings. Hanan 'Abdullah, from the Palestinian Women's Working Society, explains, "We do not have statistics, there is nothing official. It is very hard to handle lobbying activities without accurate information. The only people who know the actual number is the police. What we are trying to do, is to lobby the police and officials to publish statistics. Then we can move to highlight the issue."

The WCLAC is preparing a study entitled "Legal Victimization of Woman in the Arab World-a Palestinian Case Study." The Center is hoping to catalogue cases of honor killings in order to establish reliable statistics. Information will be drawn from cases brought to the Center's attention as well as follow-up on "suspicious" newspaper reports. The WCLAC hopes that this will provide documentation for future campaigns.

Employees at the Women's Empowerment Project regularly receive telephone threats as a result of their efforts to help victimized women. They are accused of rebelling against tradition and corrupting society. Nadira Shalhoub-Kervorkian, founder of the Palestinian women's hot line, Al-Amam, is adamant that the NGO under which the four-year-old service operates remain confidential. "When we started out, there were problems with individuals who opposed the idea. I was beaten twice," she said.

As a result of the sensitivity of the issue and the difficulties posed by the lack of complete data, efforts to combat honor killings have taken two general forms. First, women's organizations strive to provide practical services to protect and assist women in need. At the same time, a number of groups have launched a broader campaign directed at the development of a more gender-sensitive society and PNA.

Emergency Assistance

Women's NGOs provide emergency assistance for women in danger for having violated "honor codes." Services offered by the Al-Amam hotline and other organizations include counseling and referrals for hymen-repair operations. Samia, who learned of the hotline from a press advertisement, says the hotline "is always ready to help girls." When a fellow student became pregnant, Samia and her friends referred her to Al-Amam for advice.

Women's organizations have also established a good relationship with the Palestinian police force. For Su'ad Abu Dayyeh, recognition of the WCLAC and other centers by the police and governors is the most positive recent step in combating the victimization of women. She said that the police have "heard about the services our Center gives. They feel that we are committed and that they are ignorant. When they feel they cannot help, they contact us."

After Hania, a 30-year-old Gazan, became pregnant in 1996, she received a death threat. She turned to the police, who provided shelter and invited the Women's Empowerment Project to offer counseling services throughout the pregnancy, which was spent in a prison cell. The Project later referred the woman to another women's NGO, which sought a home for Hania and her baby boy. Both the Women's Empowerment Project in Gaza and WCLAC in the West Bank currently coordinate with the police force, providing workshops to train officers to deal with victimized woman.
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

According to Intisar Al-Wazir, Minister of Social Affairs and also a member of the PLC, the ministry is preparing to establish a shelter for women. The NGOs have also called for the availability of abortion as an option for women who become pregnant as a result of rape. Several women's organizations drafted a letter to the Palestinian Ministries of Health, Justice, and Social Affairs, demanding that the state meet with them to discuss state-sponsored abortions in such circumstances. Although the letter was sent in January 1997, no reply has been received.


Equal Rights

The achievements of NGOs in providing practical and emergency assistance women in danger are part of the larger struggle to ensure women's equal rights, to secure nondiscriminatory legislation and to increase public awareness of women's issues.

In 1995, a project entitled, "The Palestinian Model Parliament-Women and Legislation" was launched as part of the comprehensive effort. Al-Wazir commends this effort, noting that previous efforts were "very weak due to lack of unity." The project, initiated by WCLAC, involves 15 women's organizations training men and women throughout the West Bank and Gaza in legal literacy and advocacy. "Palestinians only have two years of experience of the Legislative Council," said Hanan Abdel-Rahman Rabbani, Project Manager. "It's still not clear to them what the role of their PLC member is, or what his or her relationship is with his or her constituency."

The project has focused on highlighting discriminatory legislation in laws, such as the personal status law. As Attorney Manal Kleibo Zarf has noted, "If a woman is raped, she cannot go to court on her own. Her case is only valid if she is accompanied by her father or her brother." The project is drafting amendments to redress such instances of gender discrimination. These amendments constitute the core of their lobbying activities, and are to be presented at a Central Model Parliament scheduled for March, 1998.

As Suheir Azzouny of WATC said with regard to ending the practice of honor killings, "Nothing can be done by legislation; there has to be awareness in the community." The sense of the honor code in general and what is considered to violate it has evolved in recent years, according to Lisa Taraki. "Many infringements of the honor code are solved in other ways, such as through elopement or marriage."

As a result of NGO efforts, the media's publicizing of honor killings has begun to raise the issue in public forums and make it a matter of public debate. Last spring, the Palestinian press reported on a four-year-old girl who was raped by a 25-year-old man and left to bleed to death by her family because she had "dishonored" her family. The child survived, but her "honor" is marred for life.


The WATC has also brought discussion of honor crimes to newspapers, its radio show and its newsletter. The group publicized the recent honor killing of a woman from the Ramallah area, referring to her as a "martyr" of her society, thereby seeking to promote a redefinition of the "dishonorable" woman's status. The women's movement has incorporated the issue of honor killings into its wider and less sensitive campaign to reduce violence against women. Last December, a coalition of WATC-led organizations secured an official PLC condemnation of domestic violence.

Palestinians increasingly acknowledge that sexual abuse, including incest and rape, occurs in Palestinian society. Safa Tamish, who is affiliated with the Tamer Institute for Community Education, has been pioneering research on Palestinian sexuality for several years. Acknowledging her work, the Ministry of Education recently agreed to train its 270 counselors in sex education. In time, Tamish's work may serve as a foundation upon which sex education may be introduced into the Palestinian curriculum.

Within a broader sociological context, a number of trends have been redefining the honor code, independent of efforts exerted by individuals, the women's movement or officials within the PNA. In Palestinian Society, published by Birzeit University's Women's Studies Program, Lisa Taraki tentatively suggests that the patriarchal nature of Palestinian society could be undergoing a redefinition due to socioeconomic changes, such as the growth of employment prospects for women, the rising age of marriage, rising educational levels for women and the break up of the extended family. The latter change, Sharif Kanaana believes, is the means most likely to decrease the rate of honor killings. "What needs to come first is a system that changes relations between people, especially within families."

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

I agree it's a despicable situation. However it seems again you're trying to land something in Islam's lap that quite obviously does not belong there. If you search back in this forum, you'll find I've quite clearly refuted the misguided idea that honour killings have anything whatsoever to do with Islam. Anyway here's another article about a Palestinian Christian who murdered his daughter, because she wanted to marry a Muslim.

---

Murdered in name of family honour

Chris McGreal in Ramallah reports on a rise in killings of Palestinian women
* The Guardian, Thursday 23 June 2005 00.01 BST

Faten Habash's father wept as he assured his daughter there would be no more beatings, no more threats to her life and that she was free to marry the man she loved, even if he was a Muslim. All he asked was that Faten return home.

Hassan Habash even gave his word to an emissary from a Bedouin tribe traditionally brought in to mediate in matters of family honour, a commitment regarded as sacrosanct in Palestinian society. But the next weekend, as Faten watched a Boy Scouts parade from the balcony of her Ramallah home, the 22-year-old Christian Palestinian was dragged into the living room and bludgeoned to death with an iron bar. Her father was arrested for the murder.

"He gave me his word she would not be harmed," said Ibrahim Abu Dahouq, the Bedouin mediator. "He was crying and begging her to come home. They were even telling me that for their daughter to leave their house as a bride would be an honour for them. We never believed that love would lead to death in this ugly way."

Two days later, another ritual of killing unfolded a few miles away in Jerusalem.

Maher Shakirat summoned three of his sisters to discuss a family uproar after one of them, Rudaina, was thrown out by her husband for an alleged affair. Maher listened to Rudaina's denials, and her sisters' pleas that they were not covering up the affair. Then he forced the three women to drink bleach before strangling Rudaina, who was eight months pregnant. The other sisters tried to flee but Maher caught and strangled Amani, 20. The third, Leila, escaped but was badly injured by the bleach.

Maher, a bus driver in his 30s, is in hiding but his parents were arrested for allegedly ordering the murders and his wife was detained as an accomplice. As he was taken into custody, Rudaina's father, Amin, was asked why his daughters were killed. "Because they dishonoured the family," he said. "A married woman who goes with another man isn't good."

The murders of Faten Habash and the Shakirat sisters last month were the latest in a series of brutal "honour killings" that have shaken the Palestinian community over recent weeks. The deaths have prompted demands for a change to laws inherited from the days of Jordanian rule that deem all women to be "minors" under the authority of male relatives and that provide a maximum of six months in prison for killings in defence of "family honour."

But those calls have met with resistance in parliament where religious Palestinian MPs argue that reform will lead to a collapse in the moral fabric of society. According to the Palestinian women's affairs ministry, 20 girls and women were murdered in honour killings last year and about 50 committed suicide - often under coercion - for "shaming" the family through sex outside marriage, refusing an arranged marriage or seeking a divorce. Another 15 women survived attempts to kill them.

The ministry says that dozens of other killings are covered up each year. "We had one woman of 26 who was certified as dying of old age," said Maha Abu Dayyeh Shamas, director of the Women's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling. "Putting 'falling into well' on the death certificate is very common. We find that the women were strangled and then dumped in the well."

Faten Habash's murder was unusual because she came from the Christian minority in the Palestinian territories. Her desire to marry a young Muslim, Samer Hamis, so infuriated her family that the couple decided to elope to Jordan.

Faten's father enlisted the family priest to stop his daughter on the grounds that, even though she was 22, all women are legally regarded as minors under the authority of their male relatives. The Palestinian authorities returned Faten to her home where she was beaten and her pelvis broken as she was either thrown from a window or jumped trying to escape. She spent six weeks in hospital. She sought protection under an ancient Bedouin formula for resolving disputes, known as Tanebeh. Abu Dahouq, a lawyer for the Dawakuk tribe, negotiated with the Habash family.

Mr Dahouq said: "Faten believed she had received a guarantee of security." Two days later she was murdered. "This family had no honour, no manners, no ethics," he said. "And the girl was as honourable as could be. All she wanted to do was marry this man she loved. I think the people in her church also have responsibility for this killing. They told this family that their daughter brought shame, so that makes them part of the crime."

TBC...

The family priest, Father Ibrahim Hijazin, declined to talk about Faten's killing other than to say he called the Palestinian authorities to prevent her from reaching Jordan. But he says other families would have reacted as hers did. "There is no interfaith marriage among Arabs. Catholics here are Christian by faith and Muslim by culture, and in this community it is forbidden for Christians to marry Muslims. It's not good. It's a tribal mentality. I don't accept it, but it is the culture," he said.

After Faten's murder, several hundred Palestinian women held a vigil in Ramallah to demand an end to honour killings.

The Palestinian women's affairs minister, Zuhaira Kamal, called for a change to the law to allow women over 18 to marry without the consent of a male relative and reform of the old Jordanian legislation that frees the killers after a few months. But MPs have resisted the move.

"They're very traditional there," said Mrs Abu Dayyeh Shamas. "They say these are our traditions, that a man who is in a moment of anger is driven to do these things. It gives a message to the community that you can kill without punishment. We have a lot of complaints from women that their husbands are having affairs. We ask these MPs if they think these women should be allowed to kill their husbands. They can't answer that question."

Although honour killings have a long history in Palestinian society, women's rights groups say the rise in these murders cannot be separated from the resurgent violence of the past four years of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "Things are breaking down because of the changing relationship between men and women. Increased numbers of women are the main source of income while her husband sits around. That is the kiss of death for that family," said Mrs Abu Dayyeh Shamas.

"Men feel they have lost their dignity and that they can somehow restore it by upholding the family's honour. We've noticed recent cases are much more violent in nature; attempts to kill, rape, incest. There is an incredible amount of incest."

Amira Abu Hanhan Qaoud murdered her daughter, Rafayda, because she became pregnant after being raped by two of her brothers.

"My daughter fell over and broke her knee. I took her to hospital and there the doctor told me she was pregnant. So I killed her. It's as simple as that," said Mrs Qaoud on her doorstep in Ramallah. Mrs Qaoud waited until the baby was born and given up for adoption. Then she presented her 22 year-old daughter with a razor blade and told her to slash her wrists.

She refused so her mother pulled a plastic bag over her head, sliced her wrists and beat her head with a stick. The brothers were sentenced to 10 years for the rape. Mrs Qaoud spent two years in prison for killing her daughter. She has purged her home of all pictures of her older children, and declines to discuss the killing, saying all she wants is to forget about it.

The repercussions of Faten Habash's murder are still being felt; the man she loved is in protective custody after threats from the Habash family.

The Bedouin mediator says the Habashes have dishonoured his tribe by breaching the pledge that Faten would not be harmed. "The crime is not against the girl, the crime is against our family," said Mr Abu Dahouq. "Since they have broken their word, we have the right to retaliate. There will be a reaction for betraying their religion and betraying us."

Source: The Guardian

70% of worlds "honour" killings are done by muslims.

Where did you get that statistic from? There's heaps in Christian South America many go unreported though, as the laws there are quite forgiving for honour killers, and also a lot in India, both Hindus and Sikhs practise it.

Regardless of the figures, Islam as a belief system deplores them, and they have nothing to do with Islam. According to Islamic belief, these people are nothing but callous murderers.

Also a little mentioned fact is that most in the Arab world who commit such sickening crimes, do so whilst under the influence of alcohol... really practising Muslims they are.

abu - the only instances I see involve muslims.
this is from ALL over the net.

so by my research it is not 70% muslim involvement.
It is 100%

How could it POSSIBLY be Islamic to commit honor killings? This is just Islamophobia, and hatred and racism and bigotry. There is nothing in Islam which supports the killing of women who commit crimes of dishonor.

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:

“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Large list of Islamic honor killings:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/honor_killings_islam_misogyny/

"The Whore Lived Like a German"
By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin

In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. Their crime? Trying to break free and live Western lifestyles. Within their communities, the killers are revered as heroes for preserving their family dignity. How can such a horrific and shockingly archaic practice be flourishing in the heart of Europe? The deaths have sparked momentary outrage, but will they change the grim reality for Muslim women?

Polizei Berlin

Hatin Surucu just wanted to live her own life. Instead, she became Berlin's latest victim of honor killings. Her Turkish Muslim brothers allegedly gunned her down for adopting Western ways.
The shots came from nowhere and within minutes the young Turkish mother standing at the Berlin bus stop was dead. A telephone call from a relative had brought her to this cold, unforgiving place. She thought she would only be gone for a few minutes and wore a light jacket in the freezing February wind. She had left her five-year-old son asleep in his bed. He awoke looking for his mother, who, like many Turkish women in Germany, harbored a secret life of fear, courage and, ultimately, grief. Now her little boy has his own tragedy to bear: His mother, Hatin Surucu, was not the victim of random violence, but likely died at the hands of her own family in what is known as an "honor killing."

Hatin's crime, it appears, was the desire to lead a normal life in her family's adopted land. The vivacious 23-year-old beauty, who was raised in Berlin, divorced the Turkish cousin she was forced to marry at age 16. She also discarded her Islamic head scarf, enrolled in a technical school where she was training to become an electrician and began dating German men. For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways. Days after the crime, police arrested her three brothers, ages 25, 24 and 18. The youngest of the three allegedly bragged to his girlfriend about the Feb. 7 killing. At her funeral, Hakin's Turkish-Kurdish parents draped their only daughter's casket in verses from the Koran and buried her according to Muslim tradition. Absent of course, were the brothers, who were in jail.

The crime might be easier to digest if it had been an archaic anomaly, but five other Muslim women have been murdered in Berlin during the past four months by their husbands or partners for besmirching the family's Muslim honor. Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children, one was shot, one strangled and a fifth drowned. It seems hard to fathom, but in the middle of democratic Western Europe -- in Germany, a nation where pacifism is almost a universal mantra -- murderous macho patriotism not only exists but also appears to be thriving. It may even be Germany's liberalism -- and its post World War II fear of criticizing minority cultures -- that has encouraged ultra-religious families to settle here.

The problem is that much of this insular and ultra-religious world is out of public view, often hidden in inner-city apartments where the most influential links to the outside world are satellite dishes that receive Turkish and Arabic television and the local mosque. Tens of thousands of Turkish women live behind these walls of silence, in homes run by husbands many met on their wedding day and ruled by the ever-present verses of the Koran. In these families, loyalty and honor are elevated virtues and women are treated little better than slaves, unseen by society and often unnoticed or ignored by their German neighbors. To get what they want, these women have to run. They have to change their names, their passports, even their hair color and break with the families they often love, but simply can no longer obey.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

Girl, 17, killed in Iraq for loving a British soldier


By Sadie Gray
Sunday, 27 April 2008

A 17-year-old Iraqi girl was murdered by her father in an honour killing after falling in love with a British soldier she met while working on an aid programme in Basra, it has been claimed.

Rand Abdel-Qader was stamped upon, suffocated and stabbed by her father, then given an unceremonious burial to emphasise her disgrace. Police released her father without charge two hours after his arrest.

"Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws. The father has very good contacts inside the Basra government and it wasn't hard for him to be released and what he did to be forgotten."

[I hoped they immediately arrested this Iraqi police sergeant for making such Islamophobic racist bigotted statements about Islam]


A total of 47 young women died in honour killings in the city last year, Basra Security Committee told an investigation into Ms Abdel-Qader's case by The Observer. This is believed to be the only case of an honour killing involving a British soldier.

The MoD had no official advice for troops on how to behave with Iraqi women. The serviceman involved would not have been told that any relationship with her could put her life at risk, the paper said.

Ms Abdel-Qader, a student of English at Basra University, had struck up a friendship with a 22-year-old British infantryman known only as Paul five months before her murder in March.

She was believed to have last seen him in January, and the pair, whose relationship was innocent, only ever met while working at the aid station. The soldier was helping deliver relief to displaced families as part of his regimental duties. Ms Abdel-Qader was a volunteer worker.

On the day her father, Abdel-Qader Ali, was told of their friendship by a friend, he accused her of having an affair with a British soldier and killed her in front of his wife, Leila Hussain, and their sons.

"I screamed and called out for her two brothers so they could get their father away from her. But when he told them the reason, instead of saving her they helped him end her life," Ms Hussain said. She then left her husband and has since divorced him. She has received threats from her husband's family and is in hiding. She now works for an organisation campaigning against honour killings.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/girl-17-killed-in-iraq-for-loving-a-british-soldier-816301.html

Domestic Violence versus Honor Killing

Domestic violence is a significant problem in the United States. Between 1989 and 2004, 21,124 women died at the hands of an intimate; 8,997 men died in domestic violence during the same time period.[13] Because the U.S. Department of Justice does not catalogue the victim's or murderer's age, religion, ethnic background, or immigration status, it is not possible to know what proportion of these killings are honor-related.

Unni Wikan, a social anthropologist and professor at the University of Oslo, defines honor killing as "a murder carried out as a commission from the extended family, to restore honor after the family has been dishonored. As a rule, the basic cause is a rumor that any female family member has behaved in an immoral way."[14] While honor killings are just a minority of total domestic violence in the United States and Canada, they constitute a distinct phenomenon. (See Table 1.) A 2008 Massachusetts-based study found that "although immigrants make up an estimated 14 percent of the state's population, [they, nevertheless,] accounted for 26 percent of the 180 domestic violence deaths from 1997-2006."[15]

Lenore Walker, author of The Battered Woman Syndrome,[16] agreed that fundamentalist immigrants control and patrol their women very closely. "Given the strict rules, there are a lot of things to kill them for," she said. Walker confirmed the difference between the victim-perpetrator in honor killings and ordinary domestic violence:

In ordinary domestic violence involving Westerners, it is rare for brothers to kill sisters or for male cousins to kill female cousins. And while child abuse occurs in which fathers may kill infants and children, it is very rare for Western fathers to kill teenage daughters.[17]

Other discrepancies exist. Walker observed that Western men are more apt to kill little boys than girls in their family. "Women with postpartum depression kill their babies, and men may kill babies by shaken baby syndrome," she explained. She did not "know of any batterers who are helped to commit the murders by their brothers or cousins or other family members. Occasionally, the man's relatives may be in the house when the murder goes down, but that is quite rare in my experience."[18]

The press has reported a number of honor killings in the United States, Canada, and Europe. These cases show the killings to be primarily a Muslim-on-Muslim crime. (See Table 2 and Table 3.) The victims are largely teenage daughters or young women. Wives are victims but to a lesser extent. And, unlike most Western domestic violence, honor killings are carefully planned. The perpetrator's family may warn the victim repeatedly over a period of years that she will be killed if she dishonors her family by refusing to veil, rebuffing an arranged marriage, or becoming too Westernized. Most important, only honor killings involve multiple family members. Fathers, mothers, brothers, male cousins, uncles, and sometimes even grandfathers commit the murder, but mothers and sisters may lobby for the killing. Some mothers collaborate in the murder in a hands-on way and may assist in the getaway. In some cases, taxi drivers, neighbors, and mosque members prevent the targeted woman from fleeing, report her whereabouts to her family, and subsequently conspire to thwart police investigations.[19] Very old relatives or minors may be chosen to conduct the murder in order to limit jail time if caught.

Seldom is domestic violence celebrated, even by its perpetrators. In the West, wife batterers are ostracized. Here, there is an important difference in honor crimes. Muslims who commit or assist in the commission of honor killings view these killings as heroic and even view the murder as the fulfillment of a religious obligation.

A Turkish study of prisoners found no social stigma attached to honor murderers.[20] While advocacy organizations such as CAIR denounce any link between honor killings and Islam, many sheikhs still preach that disobedient women should be punished. Few sheikhs condemn honor killings as anti-Islamic. Honor killings are not stigmatized.
http://www.meforum.org/2067/are-honor-killings-simply-domestic-violence#table1

Wafa Sultan: "The Subjugation of Women Reduces Them to a Level Lower Than Beasts"

Wafa Sultan, who famously dressed down an Islamic cleric about jihad and dhimmitude on Al-Jazeera a few years ago, now speaks out about the claim that Islam honors women and in general about the dehumanization of women in Islamic theology and culture:

"Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: 'The Subjugation of Women Reduces Them to a Level Lower Than Beasts,'" from MEMRI, December 4, 2008 (just posted there February 3):

Following are excerpts from an interview with Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan, which aired on Al-Hayat TV on December 4, 2008.

To view this clip, visit http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1993.htm.

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"Islam Has Distorted the Concept of Honor"

Wafa Sultan: "If Islam really treated women with honor, we would see the positive consequences of that honor over the course of the past 14 centuries. Islam did not treat women with honor. On the contrary, it has distorted the concept of honor.

"My brother Rashid, I can call this pen a knife for 14 centuries, but it will never become a knife. It will remain a pen. Islam has turned these concepts upside-down, and has forced its followers to see things as their opposites - to view killing and beheading as an act of tolerance, to view taking a woman captive as an act of compassion, to view the plundering of spoils of war as their right, and to view masturbation against a little girl's thighs as marriage.

"Thus, it has destroyed the intellectual structure of the Arabic-speaking nation, and has produced people who cannot distinguish between things and their opposites - people with distorted thinking and warped mentality, as infertile as barren land, which cannot yield a thing.

"The best proof of this is the reality of Islam. When the Prophet Muhammad married the child 'Aisha, this was not an act of honor toward her childhood. When Muhammad married Zaynab, the wife of his adopted son, after seeing her naked and desiring her, this was not an act of honor toward married women. When Muhammad married the Jewish woman Safiya, upon his return from a raid in which he killed her father, brother, and husband, this was not an act of honor toward her. The same goes for all his marriages."

"The Subjugation of Women Reduces Them to a Level Lower Than Beasts - Not to Mention the Laws of Inheritance, Testimony in Court, The Beating Of A Wife Who Refuses to Go to Bed With Her Husband, And 'Honor' Crimes"

"Accusing women of being 'lacking in brains' is not an act of honor toward her. Human beings - whether male or female - are the property of their Creator. No human being has the right to own another. The subjugation of women reduces them to a level lower than beasts - not to mention the laws of inheritance, testimony in court, the beating of a wife who refuses to go to bed with her husband, and 'honor' crimes.

"Muhammad said in a hadith: 'Three things spoil one's prayer: a woman, a black dog, and a donkey.' Do they ever give this any thought? Do they realize that Allah chose the female body for his greatest invention - creation itself? Wouldn't it be moral to bestow upon the female body a certain holiness, instead of viewing it as impure?" [...]

"In my opinion, in the Arab countries in particular, you cannot say that the status of women has nothing to do with Islam. You cannot deny that there is a connection between the two. Islam is an all-embracing faith, which intervenes in the smallest details of a person's life - beginning with the way he should enter the toilet, and ending with - excuse my language - the way he should wipe his behind.

"Since Islam is an Arab religion, it has succeeded in erasing the culture, customs, and traditions of the Arabic-speaking peoples, more than in Islamic nations that are not Arabic speaking. Therefore, in the Arab world in particular, the status of women is an inevitable outcome of the Islamic teachings." [...]

"I Firmly Believe That the Islamic Faith Was Created to Serve Muhammad, and to Legitimize His Desires and Urges"

"I firmly believe that the Islamic faith was created to serve Muhammad, and to legitimize his desires and urges. As evidence, we have 'Aisha's words: 'I see that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desires.' These words, which she said with innocence and spontaneity, embody the goal for which the Islamic faith was formed.

"Islam allowed men to marry infants in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to 'Aisha. Islam forbade adoption in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to the wife of his adopted son - a thing forbidden by the pre-Islamic moral values of the Arabs. Islam permitted taking women captive and violating their honor in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to Safiya, after killing her husband, her father, and her brother that same night. Can you imagine any woman on the face of this earth witnessing with her own eyes the killing of her husband, her father, and her brother, and accepting the religion of their killer on the spot, and sleeping with him?! Can the human mind possibly accept such a story?" [...]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/honor_killings/2009/02/wafa-sultan-the-subjugation-of-women-reduces-them-to-a-level-lower-than-beasts.html

Some example of honour killings in Sweden:

Abbas Rezai (2005):  A 20-year-old Iranian man, gets killed in Hogsby. The motive is supposedly that his girlfriend’s family, who comes from Afghanistan, could not accept their relationship. The trial found the girlfriend’s brother guilty and fined him four years in institutional youth welfare and banishment from Sweden for life. Her parents are free. The lawyer of the mother to the murdered man is convinced that they planned the killing and has the opinion that they also should be sentenced for the murder.

A Kurdish Wife (2003): A 28-year-old Kurdish man stabs his one-year-younger wife with 37 slashes in Strangnas. The man did not accept that his wife wanted to get a divorce. The trial found him guilty and fined him ten years in prison and banishment from Sweden for life.

Fadime Sahindal (2002): A 26-year-old Kurdish girl, was killed in Uppsala in the evening of the 21st January. Her father did not accept that she had a Swedish boyfriend and wanted to have Swedish life style. The trial found her father guilty and he got a life sentence. Two months before she was killed she held a speech in the Swedish Parliament about her life and how she was treated by her family, relatives and Swedish authorities.

Pela Atroshi (1999): She was shot to death in Dhouk in Iraqi Kurdistan. Her sister called the Swedish police and reported the murder. Two uncles got a life sentence for the murder. The father is still wanted by the authorities.

Umea (1996): A 15-year-old Iraqi girl in Umea was killed by her brother and cousin after a party. The motive was that she had a Swedish life style.

Palestinian Girl (1994): A Palestinian man in Vastmanland killed his 18-year-old daughter when she refused to marry the man the father had chosen for her.
http://www.islam-watch.org/ExMuslims/Honour-killings-in-Europe.htm

Even happens in Australia, but the dhimmi media kept this pretty quiet...

Muslim religion blamed for fatal stabbing

By Greg Stolz

The Courier-Mail

October 11, 2006 01:00am

A RELIGIOUS feud between a Muslim father and his teenage daughter may have sparked a bloody domestic dispute on Queensland's Gold Coast which left the man's wife dead and him fighting for life in hospital.

Police are investigating suggestions the violence erupted after the 17-year-old girl told her father she wanted to opt out of the Islamic faith and convert to Christianity. The girl's mother is believed to have stepped in to protect her daughter, only to be fatally stabbed with a kitchen knife.

Neighbours reported hearing "blood-curdling" screams before the hysterical girl ran half-naked from their Southport home unit covered in scratches.

Police later found the body of the girl's mother, 41, inside the blood-smeared unit. Her husband was taken to the Gold Coast Hospital with a stab wound to the chest. He was last night in a critical condition under police guard.

Neighbour Caitlin Dalton was taking out the rubbish about 7pm on Monday when she heard "loud, huge, terrifying screams" coming from the unit complex.

"She (the teenager) was yelling, 'Help me, help me, they're trying to kill me'," Ms Dalton said. "Everybody heard the screams but we couldn't work out which unit they were coming from. Then this girl emerged in the stairwell hysterical and crying. Her clothes had been ripped off, she was just in her underwear and she had quite severe scratches down her arm and across her back."

Ms Dalton said that as residents tried to comfort the sobbing girl, she told how she had wanted to "convert from the Islam religion and obviously her father didn't handle it very well".

"She said her parents were really strict," Ms Dalton said.

Surfers Paradise CIB's Detective Inspector John Hartwell would not comment on whether religion was behind the deadly domestic dispute, saying police were unsure of the motive.

[Of course they would say that, wouldnt want to be Islamophobic now would we?]

"It's a domestic situation, a very tragic one, which has resulted in the death of the mother and serious injuries to the father," he said.

The girl had minor injuries and was in crisis accommodation, Insp Hartwell said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20560780-2,00.html

90 honour killings reported in first quarter of 2008

By Akhtar Amin

PESAHWAR: Cases of honour killing are on the rise in Pakistan as 90 such cases were reported all over the country in the first quarter (January to March) of 2008, says a report compiled by a non-governmental organisation (NGO)Aurat Foundation (AF).

Out of the 90 cases, 36 were reported in Balochistan, 35 in Sindh, 11 in Punjab and eight in NWFP.

Talking to Daily Times, Aurat Foundation Peshawar Resident Director Rukhshanda Naz cited lengthy judicial procedure and delay in disposal of such cases as the main reasons for increase in honour killing in the country.

She said that the government’s effort to make the state a party in honour killing cases was an encouraging step but alongside, the government should also give instant punishment to honour killers to stop this heinous crime in the country.

About the three teenaged girls allegedly buried alive in Balochistan by the tribesmen in the name of honour, she said that the inhuman incident not only earned a bad name to Balochistan but also to the whole country.

“If the government award strict punishment to honour killers, such incidents would not be reported in the country,” she said, adding that for curbing such incidents in future, the government should enact strict laws.

According to the AF report, 366 women were murdered in first three months of the current year in Pakistan. Out of them, 130 were murdered in Punjab, 110 in Sindh, 95 in NWFP and 25 in Balochistan. Sixty cases of rape were reported in this period, out of which 34 were reported in Punjab, 14 in Sindh, nine in NWFP, three in Balochistan and one in Islamabad.

A total of 246 cases of abduction were reported with 177 of them reported in Punjab, 38 in Sindh, 16 in NWFP and four in Balochistan.

A total of 66 women committed suicide during this period. Twenty-seven of them were in Punjab, 24 in Sindh, eight in NWFP, four in Balochistan and three in Islamabad.

Eighteen cases of gang rape were reported in the first quarter of the current year. Out of the number, 34 cases were reported in Punjab, 10 in Sindh, nine in NWFP, three in Balochistan and one in Islamabad.

As many as 24 cases of sexual assault happened, out of which 13 were reported in Punjab, six in Sindh, 10 in NWFP, three in Balochistan and two in Islamabad. A total of 119 cases of domestic violence were reported in the three months with 46 cases reported in NWFP, 34 in Punjab, 30 in Sindh, seven in Balochistan and two in Islamabad.

Thirty-four cases of custodial violence were also reported in this period, out of which 10 cases were reported in Punjab and 14 in Sindh. Out of 16 women who were burnt, four were in Punjab, six in Sindh, one in NWFP, four in Balochistan and one in Islamabad.

Three cases of acid-throwing were reported in the country, two in Punjab and one in Sindh, while six cases of human trafficking (four in Punjab and two in NWFP) were also reported.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\09\20\story_20-9-2008_pg7_39

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 10:34pm:

Where ....

abu, while I have your attention can you answer the questions that I've asked you here?

sprint,


Quote:

abu - the only instances I see involve muslims.

That's probably because you're wearing a special pair of spectacles that permit you only to see bad things done by Muslims. Take them off, and you might start seeing normally again.


Quote:

so by my research it is not 70% muslim involvement. It is 100%

Look above, I posted an article about a Christian bludgeoning his daughter to death because she wanted to marry a Muslim.

Calanen,


Quote:

There is nothing in Islam which supports the killing of women who commit crimes of dishonor. Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them

There is nothing in Islam whatsoever that even remotely supports these extra-judicial vigilante crimes that are mostly based on suspicions.

Notice the stipulation for a conviction requires 4 witnesses, in a court of law, not a strong suspicion or a whisper from someone who saw her talking to a strange guy.

Your likening of Islam's capital punishment for adultery to honour crimes, is like me saying that if an American murdered his son for owning a pen that writes with invisible ink, then the American system would be responsible for that, because spying is a capital offense there, and his father killed him because he suspected him of spying. It's just ridiculous, honour killings are horrendous crimes that have nothing to do with capital punishment for adultery whatsoever.

Nowhere does Islam state anything about wearing make-up or talking to a strange man being a capital offense. Any more than the American system says using pens which write in invisible ink is a capital offense, for which family members can execute them extra-judicially.

Being a lawyer and all, I'm sure you can see the vast difference between these two things, legally. They are completely unrelated.

Can the government make a law against Islam?

I mean, it is illegal to kill people, and it is illegal to have multiple wives, and it is illegal to have slavery (dhimmitude seems like slavery), and modern Islam seems to condone these things.

It also seeks political representation.

How is it that it is legal in Australia?

tallow,

I haven't lived in Lakemba for about 8 years now, so I've got no idea what's going on there.

easel,


Quote:

I mean, it is illegal to kill people

It is STRICTLY forbidden for Muslims to just go around killing people, you are just speaking garbage here.


Quote:

and it is illegal to have multiple wives

Not illegal to have 1 wife and 3 de-factos though.


Quote:

it is illegal to have slavery (dhimmitude seems like slavery)

This just indicates you don't even have any idea what the word dhimmi means.

Dhimmi means someone who has a covenant of PROTECTION with a state. Muslims are the dhimmis here.


Quote:

It also seeks political representation

ohhh, how terrible. A group of people seeking political representation in a so called free democracy. Who would've thought of such a thing???


Quote:

How is it that it is legal in Australia?

Think about it... you'll work it out sooner or later.

But Muslim laws are against democracy.

So how can a democratic society encourage something like that?

Muslim laws are for an Islamic state, not a democratic one.

It's like saying we can't have Americans here (yes some might agree I know) because they believe in a state system that executes people for all sorts of stuff and they do other weird things like eating peanut butter with jam.

Don't muslims want muslim law?

That would imply making an islamic state.

Clearly, that is incompatible with Australian values.

You also wrote that it is strictly forbidden for muslims to just go around killing people.

Then why do they do it? We have evidence here of muslims doing just that.

Why are muslims supposed to not criticise or condemn other muslims?

That would be a contradiction of their faith.

the islamic system is clearly not good for any country.

You call yourself Australian and you want this kind of system? Why? It goes against everything Australia is about. It is anti freedom. Australians will not tolerate extremist islam in this country. And anyone who you refer to as a proper muslim would be an extremist.

I've met muslims who drink alcohol, and they seem alright. They aren't in to the whole dimmitude crap. They are what they call cultural muslims, as in they remember their cultures, but they aren't in to the whole caliphate and sharia. Why on earth would anyone want to restrict freedom so severely anyway?

You also write that muslims are muslims, there is no difference between shi'te and sunni. I've been told by many muslims that shi'te are crazy and need to be stopped.

You are trying to mislead people when you say there is no difference. There clearly are. They follow different paths in life and have different philosophies/teachers, do they not?

How much else have you lied about?

easel wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 9:26am:

Can the government make a law against Islam? I mean, it is illegal to kill people, and it is illegal to have multiple wives, and it is illegal to have slavery (dhimmitude seems like slavery), and modern Islam seems to condone these things. It also seeks political representation. How is it that it is legal in Australia?

Yes the government could validly make laws against islam, under the current system. They have the constitutional power to do so.

And abu has just made some more ridiculous straw man arguments. I'd like him to once go to a philosophy debate or discussion group and get howled down with laughter for his pathetic argument construction. And he is wilfully ignorant at how bad his method of argument is, purporting to give me lectures about how to create arguments. It's colours to a blind person for him, he is the King of Straw.

tallowood wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 9:09pm:

70% of worlds "honour" killings are done by muslims.

100% of the worlds "honour" killings are done by ppl who are totally 'unhinged'.

It is a despicable crime against our humanity.

Yadda wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 11:52am:

tallowood wrote on Mar 22nd, 2009 at 9:09pm: 70% of worlds "honour" killings are done by muslims. It is a despicable crime against our humanity. 100% of the worlds "honour" killings are done by ppl who are totally 'unhinged'.

It is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim problem. Islam deflects criticism of it by finding the handful of other instances around the world, instead of doing something about honour killings in its own community.

There is no impetus to reform honour killings in Islamic countries, because women are second class citizens roughly equal to cattle. So, its a low priority. Also, many Islamic states actually have laws which protect against prosecution for honor killings OR the local police refuse to prosecute. Women's lesser status in Islam as obedient breeding stock that are get covered up and out of public life as servile employees of their domineering Islamic men is a contributing factor to honour killings continuing.

Also, honour killings are the result of men believing via Islam that they are the commanders in chief over the lives of women. What happens when in Islam, when someone disobeys their rightful masters, as commanded by Allah the Moon God? Acid on the face, beheading, beating.

Abu's topsy turvy Islamic deflection reasoning goes something like this: there are no tornadoes in the US, because I found one tornado in another country. Therefore there is no problem with tornadoes in the mid-west of the united states, it is a worldwide problem and not a mid-western problem.

There will be only one result of all this denial about honour killings in the Islamic community:

* more honour killings.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 10:34pm:

......Islam as a belief system deplores [Honor Killings], and they have nothing to do with Islam. According to Islamic belief, these people are nothing but callous murderers.

abu,

That assertion is a little disingenuous, i would argue.



I would state that every example of 'honour' killing involving muslims, which i have come across, has been justified [by the muslim perp] on the basis of the victims apostasy.

i.e.
Many young muslims are murdered because of their 'illegal' association with 'unbelievers', or, for being perceived as living an un-ISLAMIC lifestyle which is unacceptable to the father, brothers, male cousins, etc.

Perceived apostasy.


And that fact gives the lie to your claim,


Quote:

.....['honour' killings among muslims] have nothing to do with Islam.

EXAMPLE FROM UK....

Muslim apostates threatened over Christianity [UK]
11 Dec 2007
.....Sofia Allam simply could not believe it. Her kind, loving father.....said she had brought shame and humiliation on him, that she was now "worse than the muck on their shoes" and she deserved to die.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/09/nmuslim109.xml


.....but of course, it has nothing to do with ISLAM.
/sarc off

It has a lot to do with Islam.

Islam has the burqua, niquab, or hijab - not wearing these, leads to animosity about being a western whore, and invites hostility and violence.

Islam has the penalty of death for apostasy. If a muslim women leaves the faith, she may be honor killed for this. This might mean she wants a life of freedom instead of being a burqua covered breeding machine that lives at home, does housework and takes a beating whenever she is not up to par. So she is an apostate, she has left the faith, and she must die.

Islam also has the death penalty for infidelity. So having a non-islamic boyfriend, may lead to allegations of infidelity, leading, again, to the death of women.

Added on top of all this, is the lesser status of women in Islam, and the patriachal nature of Islam - again contributing more to the likelihood that women will be abused, given they are seen as the property of men, and property does what its told. Or it suffers the consequences.

Islam knows it does not have to kill or disfigure too many women for ALL OF THEM in Islam to be afraid to step out of line. The constant threat that maybe, just maybe, if they do not do what they are supposed to do, they will be beaten, have acid thrown on their faces, or be beheaded - is enough to make most women compliant.

Hell, even our politicians, police and citizens are afraid of Islam. How much more would women who live surrounded by it be afraid?

http://www.youtube.com/v/DaKFPFHiz68

How to beat your wife, as told by an Islamic cleric. Why would you beat your wife? Because Islam says you can. No broken bones however, that would be haram. But..if you did overdo it a bit, do you really think the male Islamic police officer is going to arrest and charge you in Saudi Arabia? Surely you jest.

It is this inferior status of women under Islam that leads to all sorts of crimes against them. Feminists bleat on and on about how oppressive the West is, but give Islam a pass either through fear or because it is an enemy of a system they despise, or because respect for all foreign culture is ingrained into them - no matter how violent, backward, intolerant those cultures are.

Quote:

Don't muslims want muslim law?

Of course we do. But Islamic law is for an Islamic state, not for a non-Islamic one. As a Muslim living in a non-Muslim country, it's forbidden to "implement" Islamic law by yourself. It can only be implemented by a Caliph in a proper Islamic state. So these claims that Muslims are trying to secretly implement Shari'ah are nothing but PURE fantasy. We can't even implement it in predominantly Muslim countries, let alone in countries in which most Muslims are refugees and a tiny minority.

Such arguments are nonsensical and completely depart from reality within the first few points.


Quote:

That would imply making an islamic state.

If Muslims are going to create an Islamic state, my guess is it'll be in the Middle East, not in Australia. You're just a gullible victim of scaremongering.


Quote:

Then why do they do it? We have evidence here of muslims doing just that.

Why do Hindus or Sikhs or Christians or Jews do it? Because they're criminals. Not because of the religion they follow.


Quote:

Why are muslims supposed to not criticise or condemn other muslims?

Why would we condemn and criticise other Muslims for some show to non-Muslims? What would it achieve? It's part of keeping unity amongst Muslims. Would you go and badmouth your brother or mother to people outside your family, just to please them?


Quote:

You also write that muslims are muslims, there is no difference between shi'te and sunni. I've been told by many muslims that shi'te are crazy and need to be stopped.

Nowhere have I written any such thing. You're running on pure fantasy now.

Bring a quote for it, or consider my participation in this discussion terminated. You've been detached from reality so far, but that was based on your gullible belief in other peoples lies, this is clearly your own concoction though...


Quote:

How much else have you lied about?

The only one lying here is you.

Yadda,


Quote:

100% of the worlds "honour" killings are done by ppl who are totally 'unhinged'.

Whilst some of them might be mentally unstable, I think a lot of them are not. They're purely criminals who act out of jealousy, rage and suspicion. They are culpable and should be punished severely for their criminal acts.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 1:10pm:

Quote: Why are muslims supposed to not criticise or condemn other muslims? Why would we condemn and criticise other Muslims for some show to non-Muslims? What would it achieve? It's part of keeping unity amongst Muslims. Would you go and badmouth your brother or mother to people outside your family, just to please them?

".....Why would we condemn and criticise other Muslims...?"


What a shame!

What a shame, to criticise that which is culpable for some error!

Dictionary,
culpable = = deserving blame.


Oh no!

We can't have muslims finding fault, in the ISLAMIC community.

Because [according to muslims!] muslims are [already] perfect.

And only a muslim apostate would criticise ISLAM / muslims.

So [in the muslim mind bend] the 'fault' must always be elsewhere.

To criticise ISLAM, is to insult Allah!!
/sarc off



Where there is some 'fault', or 'disharmony', involving muslims, is that old ISLAMIC paradigm, which raises its head once again!!....

'ISLAM / muslims good,
non-muslims bad.'

Someone else is to blame, never, ever, a muslim.
/sarc off



And of course, there is an inerrant 'ISLAMIC source', which confirms ISLAMIC 'morality' as inerrant....
/sarc off

The perfection of Muhammad, in the Koran.....

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.021


The perfection of muslims, confirmed in the Koran.....

"Ye [muslims] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.110

Calanen,


Quote:

It is OVERWHELMINGLY a muslim problem.

In my opinion any existence of it at all amongst Muslims is disturbing, and Muslims everywhere should be working to educate people about it.

This is a human problem, and it knows no religious bounds. Even legislatively, it is condoned or at least responsibility is diminished for it in several countries around the world, most  of them are Judaeo-Christian countries.


Quote:

According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002), the following countries have legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defense in the case of 'honour killings': Argentina, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Peru, Syria, Venezuela and the Palestinian National Authority.

6 predominantly Judaeo-Christian states, and 5 predominantly Muslim states.


Quote:

Haiti, Morocco, Brazil & Columbia also have legislation or had legislation in the recent past which diminishes responsibility of those killing their wife caught in the act of adultery.

3 predominantly Judaeo-Christian states, and 1 predominantly Muslim state.


Quote:

According to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives."

Last time I checked, Brazil was a very Christian country, perhaps it's all the Muslim immigrants that were doing it?


Quote:

Islam deflects criticism of it by finding the handful of other instances around the world

There's more than a handful, you're delusion, or blissfully ignorant. 800 cases in 1 year in 1 Christian country alone is a little more than a handful.


Quote:

instead of doing something about honour killings in its own community.

You know nothing about what I do or don't do in my community. Again you speak from nothing but pure ignorance. Regardless, even if no Muslim ever worked against it (plenty do) that does not mean that Islam condones it. Islamic doctrine is not decided by the backwards tribal practises of ignorants. In Pakistan they also rape women in retaliation for a perceived 'attack on their honour', do you also claim this is from Islam?

Really I cannot accept you're a lawyer, your arguments are just pathetic. They don't contain a mustard's seed of evidence. All based on pure speculation and baseless inference.


Quote:

There is no impetus to reform honour killings in Islamic countries, because women are second class citizens roughly equal to cattle

There are no Islamic countries in existence, so this argument is pretty pointless. However, there is plenty of activity by Islamic organisations to educate people about this crime and to work to end it's practise amongst Muslims.

Islamic awareness site about honour killing
Fatwa from Islamonline
Islamic article on honour killings
Fatwa from islam-qa

Tell me, how many Christian based groups do you know of who are actively trying to educate Christians about the honour killings that many of their adherents commit? When was the last time any Australian Christians engaged in any activity to educate Brazilian Christians about the evil action which dogs their society?

Has the Catholic leadership of Australia said anything about honour killing? After all, his specific sect of Christianity is responsible for a lot of it.

My guess is you'd have no idea, nor are you interested. Your interest is only in denigrating and slandering Islam, for things which it CLEARLY does not prescribe.


Quote:

Also, many Islamic states actually have laws which protect against prosecution for honor killings OR the local police refuse to prosecute.

As we saw above, more Judaeo-Christian states have such laws.


Quote:

there are no tornadoes in the US, because I found one tornado in another country

Actually that sounds more like your exact response to all my threads I've ever started about Christianity, Israel or the West. You never address them, you just engage in your favourite tu quoque.

I have never stated Muslims don't carry out honour killings, I have merely stated they have nothing to do with Islamic doctrine. And you know you clearly failed to prove they do. As a lawyer, you're a joke.

Yadda,


Quote:

I would state that every example of 'honour' killing involving muslims, which i have come across, has been justified [by the muslim perp] on the basis of the victims apostasy.

Every single example? Can you show me one? or fifty??

Even if it were the case (which i sincerely doubt it is, I've never seen such a claim, and EVERY example is just outrageous), it still doesn't establish it has anything to do with Islamic doctrine. Even apostasy/treason laws in Islam MUST be decided by a court of law, not by rampaging vigilantes in extra-judicial executions.

Quote:

As a lawyer, you're a joke.

As a human being, you're a joke.

I'm not sure why you and Lestat think you are the arbiters of my career or commercial success. Whatever you say on here, or, in fact anywhere about me (who you cannot find and cannot identify) has no impact on my life, my earnings or my ability.

It's interesting that you equated what 'Islam' is doing with honor killings with what you personally Abu Rashid is doing. Kind of egocentric. You perhaps see yourself as the Modern Day Caliph.

I do not expect you to ever agree with anything I say or do, or to ever agree with me about anything. It would be like the Home Office in London expecting to write letters to the Nazis and receive favourable replies during world war II. You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship.

Freedom will win in the end. Whether Allah the Moon God likes it or not.

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 3:04pm:

You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship.

Ah... He's like... Lord Sauron.

Like... 'One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them. One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them'.

Not a LOTR-ite by any chance?

I smell the stench of pride and envy.... Delusions of grandeur.

And pardon the mixed metaphor (the torch bearer for darkness ??).

Calanen,


Quote:

You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship.

That's quite ironic, especially given that most of the dictatorships that exist in the Islamic world are propped up to the tune of billions of dollars a year in aid from the West. People like Saddam were installed, propped up and armed by the West... Yet Muslims who oppose this are "torch bearers of dictatorship"??? Someone surely is benefitting from dictatorship, but it certainly isn't Muslims.

helian,


Quote:

And pardon the mixed metaphor (the torch bearer for darkness ??).

He's gotta remain consistent with the rest of his mixed up ideas.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 3:14pm:

Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:04pm: You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship. Ah... He's like... Lord Sauron.

Not that pissant wannabee - Islam.

What I said is also not a mixed metaphor, a mixed metaphor would be 'Sailing close to the wind on thin ice.'

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 3:48pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:14pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:04pm: You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship. Ah... He's like... Lord Sauron. Not that pissant wannabee - Islam. What I said is also not a mixed metaphor, a mixed metaphor would be 'Sailing close to the wind on thin ice.'

Or 'bearing a torch' for 'darkness'.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 3:52pm:

Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:48pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:14pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:04pm: You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship. Ah... He's like... Lord Sauron. Not that pissant wannabee - Islam. What I said is also not a mixed metaphor, a mixed metaphor would be 'Sailing close to the wind on thin ice.' Or 'bearing a torch' for 'darkness'.

What are the two metaphors I mixed up, according to you?

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 5:16pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:52pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:48pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:14pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 3:04pm: You are the enemy of this society, you are the enemy of freedom and the torch bearer for darkness, oppression and dictatorship. Ah... He's like... Lord Sauron. Not that pissant wannabee - Islam. What I said is also not a mixed metaphor, a mixed metaphor would be 'Sailing close to the wind on thin ice.' Or 'bearing a torch' for 'darkness'. What are the two metaphors I mixed up, according to you?

I'm guessing his being a 'torch bearer' was your metaphor for being an advocate and 'darkness' was your metaphor for evil. However, bearing a torch would bring light to darkness... which I doubt was your intended meaning... unless you really meant something like 'he brings light to those in the dark'.

You really both are simpletons.

There was a book published in the 1930s called 'Light bearers of darkness', about how people in the occult were secretly plotting to take over the world, through their secret societies. This was the title because while these groups pretended to be good, it was only so they could draw people in and hide their truly evil aims.

Similarly, Islam is plotting to take over the world, disguises its true intentions, and pretends to be something good just so it can achieve its evil aims.

Torchbearer of darkness sounded better to me than lightbearer. So perhaps I modified a famous book title, rather than mixed a metaphor.

I won't use any highbrow references anymore, just whizzes past you morons.

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 5:31pm:

You really both are simpletons. There was a book published in the 1930s called 'Light bearers of darkness', about how people in the occult were secretly plotting to take over the world, through their secret societies. This was the title because while these groups pretended to be good, it was only so they could draw people in and hide their truly evil aims. Similarly, Islam is plotting to take over the world, disguises its true intentions, and pretends to be something good just so it can achieve its evil aims. Torchbearer of darkness sounded better to me than lightbearer. So perhaps I modified a famous book title, rather than mixed a metaphor. I won't use any highbrow references anymore, just whizzes past you morons.

The fact that a mixed metaphor may be effective (particlarly when the writer is trying to be blatantly ironic - as in your very good example of an effective mixed metaphor) doesn't mean it's not a mixed metaphor. But it takes skill to mix metaphors to good effect.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 1:10pm:

Nowhere have I written any such thing. You're running on pure fantasy now. Bring a quote for it, or consider my participation in this discussion terminated. You've been detached from reality so far, but that was based on your gullible belief in other peoples lies, this is clearly your own concoction though...

I'm not looking for a quote. Someone asked you if you considered yourself sunni or shi'ite and you wrote neither you are muslim, not sure if lestat wrote the same thing. You then said that islam is islam, or something.

You were implying that there was no such thing as sunni or shi'ite, muslims are muslims, from your perspective.

He's a sunni. Not that it matters. Both sets of jurisprudence say we have to die or live as slaves under their rule.

Calanen,


Quote:

about how people in the occult were secretly plotting to take over the world, through their secret societies

Quite big on the world domination conspiracies aren't you?

easel,


Quote:

I'm not looking for a quote

Don't make the claim then.


Quote:

You were implying that there was no such thing as sunni or shi'ite, muslims are muslims, from your perspective.

There most definitely are Shi'a, and nowhere have I even remotely indicated there is not.

What I stated is that there's not really a group called the "sunni", this is more a term made up to cover the 90% of mainstream Muslims. So there's the normal mainstream Muslims (often called "sunni") and then there's a sect or split off group called shi'a (actually the word shi'a itself means sectarians)

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:28pm:

Calanen, Quote: about how people in the occult were secretly plotting to take over the world, through their secret societies Quite big on the world domination conspiracies aren't you?

And it makes me wonder....

why?

Quote:

Quite big on the world domination conspiracies aren't you?

Did you think I wrote this book? I did say it was in the 1930s. Exactly how old do you think I am?

What is the dar al harb and the dar al islam then if not about conquering the whole world for allah? It is you are big on world domination theories, you joined a cult that aims to do exactly that.

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:48pm:

Quote: Quite big on the world domination conspiracies aren't you? Did you think I wrote this book?

Did you read it?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:53pm:

Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:48pm: Quote: Quite big on the world domination conspiracies aren't you? Did you think I wrote this book? Did you read it?

Yes, I've read the Bible, the Koran, Mein Kampf, and Das Kapital, and the Book of Mormon too.

And I'm not a Christian, Muslim, Nazi, Communist or Mormon.

You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s.

Hey ppl, the koran is the book of conspiracies it is full of innuendo about  non muslims plots against the pro and his teachings.

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:59pm:

You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s.

And you've read 'em all.

Are you trying to work out...

how they did it?

Had mohammed the pro read the koran?

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:59pm:

You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s.

You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:18pm:

Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim.

Abdul Nacer Benbrika?

tallowood wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:37pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:18pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim. Abdul Nacer Benbrika?

abu_rashid

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:18pm:

Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim.

I'm not sure what spurred that little statement of emo man-love, but good-oh.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:39pm:

tallowood wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:18pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim. Abdul Nacer Benbrika? abu_rashid

Abdul Nacer Benbrika is an Australian Muslim too.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7139/muslimprotesthoaxunkcop.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7007/stupidterrorists.jpg

Calanen,


Quote:

Did you think I wrote this book? I did say it was in the 1930s. Exactly how old do you think I am?

Contrary to your own opinion of yourself, my opinion of you is that you couldn't write a book to save yourself. Anyway my point was that I couldn't imagine the average person reading some conspiracy nutcase novel from 80 years ago.. but with you, I think I could imagine it.


Quote:

What is the dar al harb and the dar al islam then if not about conquering the whole world for allah?

All states have a concept of the "home realm" and the "foreign realm", why would an Islamic state be any different? If you actually understood properly the meanings of the terms, then you might realise it's not as big a brownie point in your little crusade to save Australia from the big bad Muslims as you might think it is.

tallowood wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:42pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:39pm: tallowood wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:18pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim. Abdul Nacer Benbrika? abu_rashid Abdul Nacer Benbrika is an Australian Muslim too.

Yep. There's a few of them.

Context, counsellor... context.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:56pm:

tallowood wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:42pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:39pm: tallowood wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:37pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:18pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim. Abdul Nacer Benbrika? abu_rashid Abdul Nacer Benbrika is an Australian Muslim too. Yep. There's a few of them. Context, counsellor... context.

Exactly.
"Honor Killings in Palestine"
Most of palestinians are not muslims?

Quote:

Contrary to your own opinion of yourself, my opinion of you is that you couldn't write a book to save yourself. Anyway my point was that I couldn't imagine the average person reading some conspiracy nutcase novel from 80 years ago.. but with you, I think I could imagine it.

Hmm, well I have saved myself twice now. And onto saving myself a third time, shortly.

Yeah there is this thing called, university, and education Abu, and unlike your mob when you go there you actually read and study a lot of books, you don't just headbutt the carpet reading the Koran.


Quote:

nutcase novel from 80 years ago.. but with you, I think I could imagine i

Why not? All your mates in Islam swear by the well known forgery the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, it's a best seller in the Middle East. It's also not a novel. You may not know what a novel is, so as I have pity on those with poor levels of education, I will assist:

Novel


Quote:

n.   1. A fictional prose narrative of considerable length, typically having a plot that is unfolded by the actions, speech, and thoughts of the characters.   2. The literary genre represented by novels. [Ultimately from Italian novella, from Old Italian, piece of news, chit-chat, tale, from Vulgar Latin *novella, from neuter pl. of Latin novellus, diminutive of novus, new.]

That book was not a fictional story, it was some anonymous dude's theories about secret societies taking over the world. As I say, you'd love it, it has loads of jewish conspiracy theories in it.

Calanen wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 8:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 8:18pm: Calanen wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 7:59pm: You and Abu would love it, its got lots of conspiracy theories about Jews in it, as was fashionable in the 1930s. You're mistaken if you think I'm ashamed to be associated with an Australian Muslim. I'm not sure what spurred that little statement of emo man-love, but good-oh.

Missed that one. Interesting take on it... Friendless are ye?

Or, perhaps... y'know.