'WALK BEFORE ME, AND BE THOU PERFECT'



In his testimony throughout the Bible, the message from God, to mankind, is clear.

God has asked [required] mankind to,

...'walk with him' [in righteousness],

...as a child walks throughout life, respectfully, with his/her parent...



Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deuteronomy 8:6
Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.

Deuteronomy 13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

2 Chronicles 6:14
And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:

Nehemiah 5:9
Also I said, It is not good that ye do: ought ye not to walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the heathen our enemies?

Psalms 56:13
For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Jeremiah 7:23
But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Jeremiah 42:3
That the LORD thy God may shew us the way wherein we may walk, and the thing that we may do.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

1 Thessalonians 4:1
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.


+++++++++


Those who are God's obedient children [will] walk before him.

That is the 'position' of those who become God's 'children'.

God's children respect and love him, and are loved in return.







It is the proud, and, the enemies of God, which are [and will be] forced to bow down before God.




'MASTERS' OF THE UNIVERSE???
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44153000/jpg/_44153995_remosque_416_ap.jpg
BECAUSE OF THE HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS,
....this [above] is what my God requires, of muslims.

My God requires that his enemies, become his slaves.






Psalms 146:8
The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:




I love my God, because of his righteousness.

And he is the God of Israel,
....yesterday, today and forever.

He is so wise, he is so just, and he is righteous.

All of His ways are perfect.




Because in the hardness of men's hearts [not only muslims], all those that refuse to be his children [and refuse to walk in HIS righteousness], by default choose [their own] bondage.

In God's wisdom, in God's plan for mankind, my God brings the wicked to that place, where they themselves, choose their own evil fate.


From the Koran,

"Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.120





Psalms 9:16
The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.


Job 12:16
With [God] is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.


Isaiah 2:11
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


Psalms 52:1
Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.
2  Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
3  Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.


Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.



MORE.....

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST.....



Isaiah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
17  O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
18  The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
19  We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.





http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42093000/jpg/_42093952_kashmir-ap416.jpg
Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go:
Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.
Proverbs 22:24,25





Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Was that Ezekiel verse, directed at the wickedness of the 'house of Israel', and so also perhaps the wickedness of the Jews today?

I am certain that some would make an argument along those lines.


1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers [ancient Israel] were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
......5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.


BUT, who are 'Israel' ??? ....

The 'Children of Israel' [in scripture] are a 'type', an 'example' to mankind [to us!], of those who will be [or hope to be!] redeemed by God.

Within scripture, 'Israel' is the term used to describe those who see themselves as, and hope to be, God's ppl.



From, Easton's Bible Dictionary,

"ISRAEL - the name conferred on Jacob after the great prayer-struggle at Peniel (Gen. 32:28), because "as a prince he had power with God and prevailed." (See JACOB.) This is the common name given to Jacob's descendants....
....This name Israel is sometimes used emphatically for the true Israel (Ps. 73:1: Isa. 45:17; 49:3; John 1:47; Rom. 9:6; 11:26)....."





God's love [redemption] is offered to all mankind.

And any muslim is [can be] a part of 'Israel' too, IF THEY CHOOSE TO BE.

But many devout muslims DO NOT REALISE [and cannot 'see', refuse to see,], that God's spiritual redemption is offered to them also.

Q.
Why is this?

A.
Scripture indicates that the 'natural man' is 'blind', to the righteousness and wisdom of God.


To the devout muslim, the word 'Israel' is a filthy word, it is a word cursed by Allah.


1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.





In our journey in this life, we are all righteously 'afflicted' by God, and 'tried'.

And our choices, in our affliction, reveal who we are, our choices reveal if we are the 'spiritual' children of God.


Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee [Israel], but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.


Daniel 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.



But let him that glorieth glory in this,
that he understandeth and knoweth me,
that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness,
judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:
for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 9:24





Matthew 22:41
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43  He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46  And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.


"....till I make thine enemies thy footstool."


Psalms 118:23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Believe ye in part of the Scripture and disbelieve ye in part thereof?
Qur'an 2:85

As always Yadda, you take a part of a book which suits your desires and you try to claim it negates something else, which clearly also exists in the same book. Like prostration or "falling on the face" as it is described in the Bible. It was the way the Prophets (pbut) worshipped, and it's the way all Muslims today worship also.

In fact the Hebrew word for bow/prostrate שחה (shachah) appears 172 times in the OT, and in the vast majority of those cases it refers to worshipping of God.

Genesis 24:26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the LORD

Genesis 24:48 And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son.

Genesis 24:52 And it came to pass, that, when Abraham's servant heard their words, he worshipped the LORD, [bowing himself] to the earth.

Exodus 4:31 And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.

2Chroniicles 7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

2Chronicles 20:18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with [his] face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshipping the LORD.

Psalms 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

And the list goes on... and on...

Also in the NT, we find statements like this:

Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Greek word κάμπτω (kampto) meaning to bow oneself in religious veneration, clearly describes a prayer that resembles that which you are now mocking and chastising, claiming it to be insincere and impious.

Also the phrase "fell on his face" is used several times in the Bible to describe the method of prayer of the Prophets:

Abraham (pbuh):
Genesis 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying

Joshua (pbuh):
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

David (pbuh):
1Samuel 20:41 [And] as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of [a place] toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.

Jesus (pbuh):
Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like a very good description of this kind of prayer:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44153000/jpg/_44153995_remosque_416_ap.jpg
Photograph courtesy of Yadda.

So I call you to worship the way Jesus (pbuh) did, by falling on your face prostrate to your Lord and Creator, instead of worshipping the one who himself recognises he must bow down and prostrate to another.

Stop attacking that which even your own book and beliefs testify is the method of worship of the Prophets of God (pbut). By seeking  to attack Islam, you end up criticising and attacking your own Messiah (pbuh), the Prophets mentioned in your books, and your own religion. This should indeed be a warning sign for you of how misguided your intentions are in these attacks.

Thanks for posting here Abu.

It seems to me in the Bible any body position is ok when praying/worshipping.

Sometimes people prostrate themselves. Sometimes not.

One would hope there is a bit more freedom to a spiritual experience than how one must stand/sit/lie.

Essentially Abu's contention is that muslims strictly follow their holy texts, while others are less worried about following all instructions, and are happy to pick the bits that are relevant, and make sense to them.

Clearly, if you really believe that your book is god's word, then you would be expected to gfollow it pretty much to the letter.

Is this a sleight on christianity?

Not really, I think contrarily, it is a sign of an evolving group, who have seriously looked at it's teachings, and faced the fact that they are indeed man made beliefs, but still like to believe they were divinely inspired, hence they are sifting through their teachings, searching for truly spiritual, worthwhile teachings to follow.

I hope Islam can do similiar.

I can't recall any instructions in the bible that one must be prostrate to pray.

At times i have had  a chat to God while cycling !!!!

mozzaok,


Quote:

Essentially Abu's contention is that muslims strictly follow their holy...

That's not my contention at all. Yadda contended that Prostration and bowing are impious and foreign to Judaeo-Christians, I merely used their own books to prove him wrong.

I have no claim, merely wanted to dispel his false claims that prostration is wrong and/or unBiblical.

As is mentioned in my opening sentence:


Quote:

As always Yadda, you take a part of a book which suits your desires and you try to claim it negates something else, which clearly also exists in the same book

abu,

My God has said that we [mankind], are his children.

Deuteronomy 32:18
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19  And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20  And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.





Muhammad said we are Allah's servants [slaves].

Devout muslims are slaves, BY THEIR OWN WORD.

But who / what do muslims serve?

Righteousness?

God?



http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44153000/jpg/_44153995_remosque_416_ap.jpg
BY THEIR OWN WORD, devout muslims place themselves in bondage.
....THEY ARE THE SLAVES,
....OF WHO THEY SUBMIT THEMSELVES TO.




BONDAGE TO WICKEDNESS

ISLAM IS THE RELIGION OF WAR, OF WAR BOOTY,
.....and the religion "of the treasures of the world",
.....ISLAM is the religion of 'immense reward' [in this world], for all those who will bow down, and worship Allah.

That is Allah's promise.

Koran...

".....Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration.......Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/048.qmt.html#048.029


Allah himself has declared that war booty, the spoils of war, have been made lawful to Muhammad [muslims],

"And know that out of all the booty that ye may acquire (in war), a fifth share is assigned to Allah,- and to the Messenger......"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.041


THE SPOILS OF WAR 'HAVE BEEN MADE LAWFUL',

From the Hadith.....

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me:"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.1062


"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.220





+++++++++




ALTERNATIVELY

God has proclaimed that we are all his prodigal children, who have gone astray [in this world].

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.


Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.




God has plainly stated that he regards us, as the 'servants' of, to whom we submit ourselves.

Wickedness?

Or, righteousness?

We choose.


John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.


Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.





+++++++++




BY GOD'S OWN PROMISE....

....Christians are the children of the living God,
....BY GOD'S GRACE [redemption].


God's rebuke to mankind....

".....how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?"

Galatians 4:1
Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2  But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8  Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?




Children of God?

Or the children of wickedness?

We choose.






http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam2.jpg
IS THIS RIGHTEOUS BEHAVIOUR?
....OR WICKEDNESS?


Today,
IN YOUR HEART, YOU DECIDE.

This may be a bit esoteric.




Quote:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 3:28-29

An heir is not a slave, yet they are not free.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2009 at 8:52pm:

This may be a bit esoteric. Quote: There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:28-29 An heir is not a slave, yet they are not free.

sprint,

It is sad.

Many muslims just don't 'get it'.

They can not 'see'.

That, they are also, the children of the promise, if they accept God's offer [redemption].

I pray that many that are now muslims, will see.





1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Psalms 146:8
The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:





I love my God, because of his righteousness.

And my God, is the God of Israel,
....yesterday, today and forever.

He is so wise, he is so just, and he is righteous.

All of His ways are perfect.

Yadda,


Quote:

My God has said that we [mankind], are his children... Muhammad said we are Allah's servants [slaves].

You just can't seem to break out of the same old cycle can you? I don't doubt the Bible says "walked with God", but you seem to constantly neglect that it speaks also about prostration and bowing. Likewise you now move onto the issue of "children" and "servant", both of them appear in the Bible. I am aware both terminologies exist in the Bible, but you seem to deny the word servant is there.

Let us examine the word servant a little more closely, because in Biblical Hebrew and Qur'anic Arabic they are actually the exact same word Abad (from where we get the names Abd'allah, Abd'ar-Rahman etc meaning the servant of God). In Hebrew the word is עבד ('ebed) and in Arabic it is عبد ('abad), the two having just slightly different vowel inflections.

This word appears an astonishing 800 times in the OT. And in quite a lot of those occurences it refers to 'servants of God' or 'worshippers of God', as this primitive Semitic verbal root has both the meaning of serve and worship in most of the Semitic languages, including both Hebrew and Arabic.

Here are a few examples:

Joshua 24:29 And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, [being] an hundred and ten years old.

Psalm 18:1 [To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David, the servant of the LORD, who spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day [that] the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul: And he said,] I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.

Psalm 105:6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Psalm 105:42 For he remembered his holy promise, [and] Abraham his servant.

Jeremiah 33:21 [Then] may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

Isaiah 22:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Daniel 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

Nehemiah 1:6-8 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned. We have dealt very corruptly against thee, and have not kept the commandments, nor the statutes, nor the judgments, which thou commandedst thy servant Moses. Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, [If] ye transgress, I will scatter you abroad among the nations:

And even later books of the Bible, which used Aramaic instead of Hebrew, use the Aramaic word, which is also the same as the Hebrew and Arabic, but is actually pronounced 'Abad, same as the Arabic.

The Aramaic word 'Abad appears 7 times in the OT and in most of those cases it refers to a worshipper/servant of God.

Ezra 5:11 And thus they returned us answer, saying, We are the servants of the God of heaven and earth, and build the house that was builded these many years ago, which a great king of Israel builded and set up.

Daniel 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, [and] spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come [hither]. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.

Daniel 3:28 [Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.

Daniel 6:20 And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel: [and] the king spake and said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?

So again it would appear that whilst trying to make an unsuccessful and obviously ignorant attack on Islam, you actually end up attacking your own religion and holy book. Why on earth you'd be ashamed to be referred to as a servant of God is beyond me. It is in fact a great honour, and as mentioned in your own books above is even a term used for the special messengers of God, his prophets.

There's no doubt the world children is used to refer to the relationship of God to men in the Bible, but I doubt it's used as many times as the word servant. And even if it were more used, that still wouldnt subtract from the fact the Bible uses servant.

And if you're going to use the old standard "We don't believe in the OT" line, there's a fair few references in the NT as well:

Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Luke 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Luke 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

Luke 16:13  No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

Acts 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1Corinthians 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, [being] a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, [being] free, is Christ's servant.

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more

Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

2Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Hebrews 3:5 And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

Revelations 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelations 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

Now if I'm not mistaken, that's some of the greatest men in the history of Christianity there who are quite clearly calling themselves servants...

Yet you beg to differ... you're not a servant of God, and I agree, you are a disobedient rebel against God. Glad we finally agree on something.

Why do muslims think that pointing their buts towards heaven and their heads towards earth pleases allah?

tallowood wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2009 at 10:22pm:

Why do muslims think that pointing their buts towards heaven and their heads towards earth pleases allah?

tallowood,

ISLAMIC doctrine commands muslims to imitate Muhammad, it is all part of their submission to Allah's will.

To follow the 'form' of worship which Muhammad 'sanctified'.

i.e. Murder [of Allah's 'enemies'], and prostration, are clearly important parts of devout muslim worship.

Head down, arze up, ....and Allah is happy?

Clearly yes.



Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9  And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.




++++++++




abu said,


Quote:

.....So again it would appear that whilst trying to make an unsuccessful and obviously ignorant attack on Islam, you actually end up attacking your own religion and holy book. Why on earth you'd be ashamed to be referred to as a servant of God is beyond me. It is in fact a great honour, and as mentioned in your own books above is even a term used for the special messengers of God, his prophets.

abu,

That is sweet, from one who promotes a philosophy which oppresses the innocent, and the weak.
/sarc off

Servants?

ISLAMIC thuggery, and terrorism.


abu,

Who are the servants of God?

Are they ppl who point their arzes to the sky, AND WORSHIP BLACK STONES [because the local cut-throat requires it]?





".....These verses from ISLAMIC law explains everything a thinking person needs to know about ISLAM.

That muslims parrot everything Muhammad said, and parrot everything Muhammad did.

Q.
But why?????

Not, because muslims know why they should copy Muhammad.

".......By Allah! I know that you are a mere stone, and if I had not seen my beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) kissing you and touching you I would have never done so.....
.....Ever since I saw the Prophet (peace be upon him) doing this, I have never failed to do that."

Muslims know they should copy Muhammad,
.....because ISLAM encourages, and requires that all muslims be sycophants, and respecters of men.

Dictionary,
sycophant = = a toady; a servile flatterer.

But what a man to emulate, and imitate!!!!

Muhammad, a murderer, and a pirate.

Yet muslims are blind to who is leading them."


"A Religion of Evil"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1233665290/37#37






++++++++



Who did God regards as his true servants?

Not those who followed a 'form' of religion....



Isaiah 1:11  To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12  When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13  Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15  And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16  Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17  Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.







http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/beheadthosewhoinsultislam.gif
MURDERING THESE CHRISTIAN CHILDREN, IS THIS MAKING SACRIFICES TO ALLAH?
THAT IS WHAT WAS CLAIMED, BY THE DEVOUT MUSLIMS WHO DID IT.
http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/beheadthosewhoinsultislam.gif
http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/index.htm


abu, will claim,
"These were imitation muslims."


But these muslims were being obedient to Allah's will.

"....whenever [TRUTH speakers, critics of ISLAM] are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy)."
Koran 33:61


"09 November 2006
Beheaded girls were Ramadan 'trophies'
medium_christian_beheading_2_indonesia.jpg(theaustralian.news.com.au)  THREE Christian high school girls were beheaded as a Ramadan "trophy" by Indonesian militants who conceived the idea after a visit to Philippines jihadists..."
"...he decided that beheading Christians could qualify as an act of Muslim charity."
http://mychristianblood.blogspirit.com/archive/2006/11/09/beheaded-girls-were-ramadan-trophies.html

N.B.
'Muslim charity' = = to honour Allah

I take that rant as an admission all your previous posts were misdirected and ignorant. And that you now concede that prostration, bowing and being a servant (slave if you will) of God are all part of not just the Qur'anic tradition, but the Biblical tradition also.

Thank you.

Who are we, the servants of?

Righteousness?

Or wickedness?


Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19  I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.



Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.





+++++++++++





"And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance
Robert M Pirsig

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:06am:

I take that rant as an admission all your previous posts were misdirected and ignorant. And that you now concede that prostration, bowing and being a servant (slave if you will) of God are all part of not just the Qur'anic tradition, but the Biblical tradition also. Thank you.

Do you mean that mohammed had stolen the tradition from the Bible like many other ideas?

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 11:06am:

I take that rant as an admission all your previous posts were misdirected and ignorant. And that you now concede that prostration, bowing and being a servant (slave if you will) of God are all part of not just the Qur'anic tradition, but the Biblical tradition also. Thank you.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.


Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:




abu,

I am a servant of my God.

And i walk before him, as one of his children.

A child of his promise.






abu,

Muslims claim they are servants of Allah.

But they are treacherous liars.

Muslims, always have been, always will be.

Such is what ISLAM teaches, to all of its 'children'.




Through treachery, deceit, and violence, what muslims seek, is to be masters of their brothers [mankind].

Google,
muslims must have domination
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=muslims+must+have+domination&btnG=Search&meta=





Psalms 28:3
Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4  Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.


abu,

On your head be it.






++++++







Darth Vader: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master.
Obi-Wan: Only a master of evil, Darth.

"Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

"This, then, is how you should pray:
  " 'Our Father in heaven,
  hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
  your will be done
     on earth as it is in heaven."

Matthew 6:9,10


"Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise.
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord."

James 5:12-14


"If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged

1Corinthians 14: 27-31


No, nothing about having to lie down

Yadda,

Are you engaging in the Biblical practise of speaking in tongues? Cos it really seems each post you say something different that contradicts previous posts and positions.

Let us take a look at the unfolding of this thread so far.

1) You claimed that the righteous way is to walk with God as his children, and that those who are forced to bow down are the proud enemies of God.

When this position was obliterated with numerous verses from your own books, you then switched position and claimed "BY THEIR OWN WORD, devout muslims place themselves in bondage". So which is it, are we forced? Or do we place ourselves into a place of servitude to our Lord?

2) You then went on to claim that "Muhammad said we are Allah's servants [slaves]. Devout muslims are slaves, BY THEIR OWN WORD", indicating this is bad. Yet when it was countered by supernumery verses from your own books, and the realisation the EXACT same word as the Arabic one for slave/servant/worshipper appears in your Bible, you then moved onto attacking Islam for being violent (as per usual).

You spoke about spoils of war for instance.

So again let us check, if this concept is Biblical or not.

The Hebrew מלקוח (mal·ko'·akh) appears 8 times in the Bible, 7 of these times it's translated as either booty or prey (both with the same meaning). The word בז (baz) is mentioned 25 times, as prey 18, spoil 4, spoiled 2, booty 1, again in most cases the other words also mean booty/spoils in the context of the verses. The word משסה (mesh·is·sä') appears 6 times, spoil 4, booty 2. That means there's at least about 20 references to booty/spoils in the Bible. Not just that, but in some of those verses the God of the Bible, your God no? actually commanded the taking of spoiils.

Numbers 31:31-37 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And the booty, [being] the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, And threescore and twelve thousand beeves, And threescore and one thousand asses, And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him. And the half, [which was] the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

Now that's quite a lot of women and goodies the servants of  YOUR God have captured there and distributed BY THE COMMAND OF YOUR GOD. So perhaps your God has repented of his former sins? Or perhaps you just missed these kinds of passages when reading over your Bible? After all it appears you just pick and choose that which suits you. Or perhaps the Lord didn't really command this right? In which case your book is actually full of lies against God... So which is it booty boy?

And the last bit is quite a gem, not only did your Lord command the taking of booty, he actually got his own share, lovely  ;D

Let us compare that to the Qur'an.

The word booty appears 7 times, and the word spoil 3 times.

So on the issue of booty/spoils looks like you're left with 1 of 3 choices:

1) You can just accept (like Muslims, in which case this would become an invalid argument for you against Islam) that taking booty was a standard part and parcel of war in times past, and in fact still is today, although you've developed nifty little terms for it like "Energy security" and so forth.

2) You can claim it was just bad people in those times, in which case you'd have to admit your entire book is pretty much lies, since they actually claimed God commanded them to do it.

3) You can claim God did command that stuff, but he's since become a good respectable God now, and has repented of his former sins. Which means your entire religion is a sham, a repenting God who is therefore obviously prone to mistakes and errors.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 12:28pm:

Yadda, Are you engaging in the Biblical practise of speaking in tongues? Cos it really seems each post you say something different that contradicts previous posts and positions. .......You spoke about spoils of war for instance. So again let us check, if this concept is Biblical or not. The Hebrew מלקוח (mal·ko'·akh) appears 8 times in the Bible, 7 of these times it's translated as either booty or prey (both with the same meaning). The word בז (baz) is mentioned 25 times, as prey 18, spoil 4, spoiled 2, booty 1, again in most cases the other words also mean booty/spoils in the context of the verses. The word משסה (mesh·is·sä') appears 6 times, spoil 4, booty 2. That means there's at least about 20 references to booty/spoils in the Bible. Not just that, but in some of those verses the God of the Bible, your God no? actually commanded the taking of spoiils. Numbers 31:31-37 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. And the booty, [being] the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, And threescore and twelve thousand beeves, And threescore and one thousand asses, And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him. And the half, [which was] the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep: And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

abu,

If you read all that chapter of Numbers, you would understand that those that did those deeds [warred against the Midianites] were 'unclean'.


Dictionary,
unclean = =
1 dirty.
2 immoral.
3 ritually impure and unfit for use or consumption. Ø (in biblical use, of a spirit) evil.




Suck it up abu, suck it up.




Yadda said,


Quote:

"......You portray such a text as a justification for muslim supremacism, and muslim world domination, and aggression. ......And the supposed intent [within Deuteronomy], which muslims point to [as a justification for their own conduct], was never the lesson being taught to mankind, in God's word [the Bible]."

"Taking 'heaven' by force???"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1235698783/0#0

Quote:

If you read all that chapter of Numbers, you would understand that those that did those deeds [warred against the Midianites] were 'unclean'.

Again you lie and deceive to try and worm your way out of the inevitable. There's 3 choices, be a man and choose...

Numbers 31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

(This is just sick, how you can call this the "command of your Lord" is just beyond my recognition of what humanity consists of. Nowhere would you find any such disgusting inhumanity in Islam)

I didn't see any mention of them being unclean for warring. In fact the Lord commanded that Moses (pbuh) divide the booty, half of it for the men who had warred, indicating they were being rewarded.

Numbers 31:42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

The only thing which I can see which refers to uncleanliness was the "plague" caused by the female captives?

Numbers 31:15-16 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Faceless butts.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/45/140235601_0f3d151803_o.jpg

No wonder allah get them kicked.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2009 at 2:19pm:

Quote: If you read all that chapter of Numbers, you would understand that those that did those deeds [warred against the Midianites] were 'unclean'. Again you lie and deceive to try and worm your way out of the inevitable. There's 3 choices, be a man and choose... Numbers 31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. (This is just sick, how you can call this the "command of your Lord" is just beyond my recognition of what humanity consists of. Nowhere would you find any such disgusting inhumanity in Islam)

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/Amputated-Hand-Foot.jpg
"....Nowhere would you find any such disgusting inhumanity in Islam."



Quote:

I didn't see any mention of them being unclean for warring. In fact the Lord commanded that Moses (pbuh) divide the booty, half of it for the men who had warred, indicating they were being rewarded. Numbers 31:42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred, The only thing which I can see which refers to uncleanliness was the "plague" caused by the female captives? Numbers 31:15-16 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Numbers 31:19
And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20  And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.
21  And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

Quote:

whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain,

Can't have been that unclean from it, cos they were allowed to keep their captives and their booty...

Sounds more like a purification because they were in contact with dead bodies, which we know Judaism considers quite unclean, rather than that they killed, they did that on God's order apparently, even the little kids and non-virgin girls.