This despicable act was no doubt carried out by those who think they have a "rational fear" of other cultures, not unlike our xenophobic members here. When will people realise that demonising people, no matter what their culture, religion, ethnicity etc. leads to nothing but senseless violence? No doubt like our resident xenophobes here they assumed because she looked foreign, she must be unemployed and pushing out babies to collect welfare... a common misconception held by xenophobes about anyone who looks foreign.

-----


Swiss 'race' attack stuns Brazil

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45472000/jpg/_45472965_belly_afp226b.jpg
Paula Oliveira received some 100 razor cuts on her belly

Brazil has called in the Swiss envoy to discuss an alleged skinhead attack near Zurich on a pregnant Brazilian woman that caused her to miscarry twins.

Three skinheads are reported to have attacked Paula Oliveira, aged 26, on Monday, leaving her badly scarred.

Ms Oliveira received some 100 razor cuts, and the initials of the right-wing Swiss People's Party (SVP) were also carved into her body.

Ms Oliveira's family says the assault was racially-motivated.

It says she had been speaking Portuguese outside a Zurich train station shortly before the attack.

"What they did to my daughter is like a horror movie," Ms Oliveira's father, Paulo, told Brazil's Globo TV.

The attack has caused shock in Brazil where it has been widely reported along with graphic images of the scars inflicted on Ms Oliveira, the BBC's Gary Duffy in Sao Paulo reports.

Brazil's Foreign Minister Celso Amorim has described the assault as "grave" and "shocking".

Plea for patience

The facts surrounding the attack remain unclear but police in Zurich say a man called them on Monday evening to report that a woman in a train station needed help.

The assault is said to have continued for about 10 minutes. Ms Oliveira told police that she had suffered a miscarriage shortly afterwards in a toilet near the train station.

Ms Oliveira was working as a lawyer for a big European company in Switzerland. She is said to have been living legally in the country for almost two years.

No-one has been arrested in connection with the attack. Swiss police have asked for patience while the investigation is continuing.

A lawmaker from the Swiss People's Party condemned the attack.

"If that really was someone from our party, we wouldn't hesitate for a second. That person would be immediately kicked out," Oskar Freysinger told the Associated Press news agency.

Source: BBC

Yep, that is disgusting Abu, racists are sad, stupid, evil, and most of all, cowardly creatures.

Another example of the SPP's xenophobia. And some of the same claims we hear from the from the xenophobes on this forum "Australian traditions are under attack".

-----

Swiss row over black sheep poster
By Imogen Foulkes
BBC News, Geneva

A political row has broken out in Switzerland over a campaign poster from the right-wing Swiss People's Party, aimed at deporting foreigners - residents without Swiss citizenship - who commit crimes.

The poster, which shows three white sheep kicking a black sheep against a backdrop of the Swiss flag, can be seen all over the country ahead of general elections at the end of October.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44099000/jpg/_44099666_swissposter2_afp203b.jpg
The controversial poster bears the slogan "For more security"

Immigrant groups in Switzerland, left-wing parties and the United Nations complain that the poster is blatantly racist.

The Swiss People's Party, currently the largest in parliament and leading in the opinion polls, is pushing for a new law which would authorise the expulsion of foreign families, should any family member be found guilty of violent crime, drugs offences or benefit fraud.

Over 20% of Switzerland's population is foreign. Most have been in the country for many years, and around a third of them were born in Switzerland.

Swiss citizenship remains very difficult to come by, and being born in the country does not give the children or even grandchildren of immigrants the right to be Swiss.

Crime figures

The Swiss People's Party claims that foreigners commit more crimes than the Swiss, and says this justifies deporting them and their families.

In fact, crime statistics are not at all clear, partly because not all Swiss regions count crime in the same way.

A recent study by the Federal Department for Foreigners found that while, at first glance, foreigners appear to be committing more crime than the Swiss, foreigners, especially young men, are also more likely to be charged - whereas young Swiss may be let off with a caution for the same offence.

The study also found that young foreigners living in Switzerland were more likely to be unemployed and living in socially deprived backgrounds, than the Swiss.

But despite the complex nature of the problem, the blunt approach has clearly struck a chord with many voters.

Matthias Mueller, spokesman for the party, says the campaign has attracted huge support.

"We've had an unbelievably positive response," he said. "It shows just how necessary our campaign is."

Storm of criticism

But now that the poster is visible all over Switzerland, there has been a storm of criticism too.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44099000/jpg/_44099668_swissfestival_gi203.jpg
Right-wing parties fear Swiss traditions are under attack

Swiss Jewish groups say the symbolism of the poster, and its use of colour, is frighteningly reminiscent of Nazi propaganda.

"I think it's a disgusting way to conduct politics," said Alfred Donath, president of the Swiss Federation of Jewish Communities.

"It is entirely contrary to Switzerland's humanitarian tradition, and really not the way we should do things."

Meanwhile the United Nations special rapporteur on racial discrimination, Doudou Diene from Senegal, has asked the Swiss government for an official explanation of the campaign.

The Swiss People's Party, which wants to pull Switzerland out of the UN Convention against Racism, and abolish the country's own Federal Commission on Racism, is dismissive of UN opinion.

"The UN should not be meddling in internal Swiss politics," said Matthias Mueller. "We have got freedom of speech in our country. Obviously [Mr Diene] has not understood our culture of democracy. I would suggest he reads up on it."

Video withdrawn

The Swiss People's Party is used to criticism of its tactics, but this time there are signs it may have gone too far.

Another poster, showing veiled Muslim women accompanied by the question, "Where are we living, Baden or Baghdad?", is now the subject of an investigation to determine whether it violates Switzerland's anti-racism laws.

Meanwhile, a campaign video showing what it is claimed are young hooded foreigners committing violent crimes was withdrawn after the Swiss youngsters who actually took part complained they had been told they were taking part in a crime-prevention video.

And across the country, hundreds of the black sheep posters have been defaced, many with a single word - "Shame"

Source: BBC

This is disgusting attack. Islamists are famous for their xenophobia and violence against women both back at home and abroad.

Whats worse mozza, is that gullible people such as yourself are unwittingly contributing towards this kind of stuff. Islamophobic sentiments are being expressed by people who claim themselves not to be white supremacists, which lead to a general feeling by white supremacists they are gaining a 'broader support base' for their extremist views, which then causes them to do bold things such as these attacks.

More insight into how these xenophobic nutcases think. Believing that simply building a minaret means a certain religion has 'taken over'. The typical "we're being swamped" mentality.

-----

Swiss move to ban minarets
By Imogen Foulkes
BBC News, Berne

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42951000/jpg/_42951155_worship203.jpg
Swiss Muslims pray in disused factories and warehouses

A row is brewing over religious symbolism in Switzerland.

Members of the right-wing Swiss People's Party, currently the largest party in the Swiss parliament, have launched a campaign to have the building of minarets banned.

They claim the minaret is not necessary for worship, but is rather a symbol of Islamic law, and as such incompatible with Switzerland's legal system.

Signatures are now being collected to force a nationwide referendum on the issue which, under Switzerland's system of direct democracy, would be binding.

The move has shocked Switzerland's 350,000 Muslims, many of whom have been campaigning for decades for more recognition for their faith.

In theory Switzerland is a secular state, whose constitution guarantees freedom of religious expression to all. In practice however mosques in Switzerland tend to be confined to disused warehouses and factories.

Across the country, there are only two small minarets, one in Zurich and one in Geneva, neither of which are permitted to make the call to prayer. In Switzerland's capital Berne, the largest mosque is in a former underground car park.

Plans rejected

In the small town of Langenthal, just outside Berne, plans to build a very modest minaret have been put on ice following thousands of objections.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42951000/jpg/_42951157_berneview203.jpg
Many Swiss think minarets have no place on their urban skylines

Langenthal's mosque is housed in a former paint factory on the outskirts of town.

Mutalip Karaademi, an ethnic Albanian who has lived in Switzerland for 26 years, was at first pleased when his proposal for a 5m-high (16.5ft) minaret was approved by the local authority.

But following a vociferous campaign against the plans, including a petition with thousands of signatures, the cantonal government in Berne delayed the project indefinitely.

"We are very disappointed," said Mr Karaademi. "We just wanted to do our mosque up a bit, with this small minaret and a tea room. We actually thought it might promote dialogue."

Mr Karaademi is also bitter at what he sees as unfair discrimination against his faith. "I even gave them a written undertaking that we would never make the call to prayer," he said. "They seem to think we are all criminals or terrorists - that's like saying all Italians are in the mafia."

Islamic law

But supporters of a ban on minarets say they have no intention of preventing anyone from practising their faith.

"We don't have anything against Muslims," said Oskar Freysinger, member of parliament for the Swiss People's Party.

"But we don't want minarets. The minaret is a symbol of a political and aggressive Islam, it's a symbol of Islamic law. The minute you have minarets in Europe it means Islam will have taken over."

Mr Freysinger's words may sound extreme, even paranoid, but this is a general election year in Switzerland, and the campaign against minarets is playing well with voters.

A recent opinion poll for one Swiss newspaper found that 43% of those surveyed were in favour of a ban on minarets.

"We have our civil laws here," insisted Mr Freysinger. "Banning minarets would send a clear signal that our European laws, our Swiss laws, have to be accepted. And if you want to live here, you must accept them. If you don't, then go back."

Growing resentment

It's a harsh message for Swiss Muslims, many of whom were born in Switzerland. There are fears that the campaign against minarets will provoke growing resentment against Swiss society.

"I think Swiss Muslims will be angry and bitter over this," said Reinhard Schulze, professor of Islamic Studies at Berne University. "And we know that anger and bitterness among a community can lead to radicalisation, even to militancy."

The Swiss government is extremely nervous about the prospect of militancy among Swiss Muslims; three cabinet ministers have already spoken out against the campaign to ban minarets.

There is also a growing fear that the debate will damage Switzerland's traditionally good relations with the Arab world.

But the Swiss People's Party is powerful. If the minaret campaign is, as some suspect, a vote-grabbing ploy ahead of October's general election, then it is a successful one; the party is riding high in the opinion polls.

A constitutional amendment forbidding minarets will have to be approved in a nationwide referendum. In the meantime, no minarets are being built anywhere in Switzerland; the controversy has created a situation in which no local planning officer wants to be the first to approve one.

In that respect, the People's Party may have got what it secretly wanted all along, an unofficial ban on minarets.

So for now, Switzerland's Muslims will continue to pray in abandoned buildings, many with the growing feeling that they are tolerated only as long as they remain invisible.

Source: BBC

Who is being silly now Abu?

You are trying to assert that anyone who shares one common opinion, must share ideologies, which is obviously false.

I see Islam as presenting a serious issue which must be addressed.

The issue is that muslims are moving in large numbers, into western democracies, but then seeking to have those democracies change their systems, to accommodate muslims, and that is back the front to what they should be doing.

If muslims want to live in western democracies, they should be modifying their religions attitudes which seriously conflict with those of their host countries, not expect the country to change itself to suit muslims.

So while it is convenient for you to label all people who oppose Islamic expansionism in western countries, as xenophobes, you do so with wilful  ignorance of the fact, that it is not who they are, but what they do, which so many are objecting to.
This clearly puts the ball in Islam's court, modify your errant behaviours, and see the problems disappear, or continue to blame everyone but yourselves, for not just allowing you to be the petulant child of the modern world, and do what you want, where you want, when you want, irrespective of the wishes of the majority.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

... Islamophobic sentiments are being expressed by people who claim themselves not to be white supremacists, which lead to a general feeling by white supremacists they are gaining a 'broader support base' for their extremist views, which then causes them to do bold things such as these attacks.

abu, this poor woman was/ is not islamic. Brazilian girls are well known for their dress code openness as well as known islamist's attitudes towards "uncovered" women. Also is known general muslim's failure to condemn their brothers in faith, which then causes them to do bold things such as these attacks.

 

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 9:04am:

More insight into how these xenophobic nutcases think. ...

Let's compare number of mosques build in non muslim countries to number of churches, synagogues, etc. build in muslim countries.

Also the caliphate rules about "non muslims should not build their buildings higher then muslims"  gives even more insight into how these xenophobic nutcases think.

mozzaok wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 9:16am:

Who is being silly now Abu? You are trying to assert that anyone who shares one common opinion, must share ideologies, which is obviously false. I see Islam as presenting a serious issue which must be addressed. The issue is that muslims are moving in large numbers, into western democracies, but then seeking to have those democracies change their systems, to accommodate muslims, and that is back the front to what they should be doing. If muslims want to live in western democracies, they should be modifying their religions attitudes which seriously conflict with those of their host countries, not expect the country to change itself to suit muslims. So while it is convenient for you to label all people who oppose Islamic expansionism in western countries, as xenophobes, you do so with wilful  ignorance of the fact, that it is not who they are, but what they do, which so many are objecting to. This clearly puts the ball in Islam's court, modify your errant behaviours, and see the problems disappear, or continue to blame everyone but yourselves, for not just allowing you to be the petulant child of the modern world, and do what you want, where you want, when you want, irrespective of the wishes of the majority.

Good on you Mozza. Well said. I'll 2nd that completely.

Is this xenophobia, islamophobia - or news of rational assessment.
From the Copenhagen Post


Terrorist threat may come from within
Friday, 13 February 2009 09:21 RC News  
A US report has concluded that Muslim residents in Europe who train as terrorists in Pakistan are the most likely agents of terror for the continent

Al-Qaeda is preparing for a new attack in Europe and Denmark is at the top of its list, according to the head of US National Intelligence, Dennis C. Blair.

In his department’s 2008 annual threat assessment report, Blair indicated that Muslim extremist groups such as Al-Qaeda and Sunni affiliates who go to Pakistan for terrorist training and return constituted the main threat to European security.

Blair’s report suggested that the integration of Western Europe’s 15 to 20 million Muslims is ‘progressing slowly’, but that opportunities for extremist propagandists and recruiters are ripe. His belief that Denmark is a top terror target supports the assessment of Denmark’s own intelligence agency, PET.
‘Al-Qaeda has used Europe as a launching point for external operations against the US on several occasions since 9/11, and we believe that the group continues to view Europe as a viable launching point,’ the report stated.

‘Al-Qaeda most recently targeted Denmark and the UK and we assess that these countries remain viable targets.’

The report stated that the groups would likely go after leading politicians and economic and infrastructure targets. It also said that attacks would be carried out in a ‘dramatic’ fashion and would seek to instil as much fear as possible amongst the general population.

Although Blair indicated that little information is known about any specific upcoming Al-Qaeda attacks or targets, he stated in the report that Al-Qaeda leadership has been weakened over the past year.

Experts believe that Denmark is a top terror target primarily due to the Mohammed cartoon affair of 2005.




Europe just needs one country to go first - once that happens, the backlash will be on. Paitience is wearing thin.  

Swear allegiance or vincent vang off is on the cards. Perjure yourself by acting contrary to your sworn allegiance - vincent again.

It is coming.

I'd have thought that if any religious group was xenophobic it would be Islam.  After all they won't be happy till all is Islam.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

Whats worse mozza, is that gullible people such as yourself are unwittingly contributing towards this kind of stuff. Islamophobic sentiments are being expressed by people who claim themselves not to be white supremacists, which lead to a general feeling by white supremacists they are gaining a 'broader support base' for their extremist views, which then causes them to do bold things such as these attacks.

You are right - jackbooted nazis are jumping on the bandwagon.

But there are millions more of the bespectacled accountant-types and their wide-hipped wives who are sick of islam, sick of hearing about it, sick of seing it on their streets. Sick of the threats, the violence, the barbaric news in their morning papers over tea and toast - barbaric acts, sentiments, demands voiced in their own cities, towns. Sick of the political dorks and municipal wallahs accommodating, excusing, mollycoddling the bearded rage boys and faceless women encountered daily on their streets and tv screens. They are sick of the 'look at me' muslim element in their midst, their inability to just get on. Just shut the hell up and get on.

Their ancestors have seen off theocracy once and they are not going to let it back in through the backdoor in the form of some exotic, intellectually negligible early medieval eastern tribal superstition.





I though I'd be frank for once...

Quote:

Xenophobia continues to rise in Europe

Great stuff.  [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif] Let's hope this 'racism' spreads throughout the western world so that our countries can return to normal and we can regain a little respectability.

I highly doubt though that that was the work of the Swiss People's Party. Racists have more dignity than that, not to mention more intelligent. Why on earth would members of the SPP be stupid enough to advertise their party that way? Honestly. I would think the more likely culprits are anti-racists/opposition trying to make it look like the work of the SPP. It's no different to the woman who wrote Barrack Obama across her head and claimed it was a group of black people who did it.

I think people are pretty thick to believe such nonsense.

-Look at the source... BBC... Yes. We all know how fair and balanced they make their stories about multiculturalism and third world immigrants. They always give racists a chance. Hahahahaahhahaha!  ;D

Quote:

Many Swiss think minarets have no place on their urban skylines

Make that 'Most Swiss' and Bristish,  Europenas - and Australians.

Soren wrote on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 7:58pm:

Quote: Many Swiss think minarets have no place on their urban skylines Make that 'Most Swiss' and Bristish,  Europenas - and Australians.

Here here.

.

Update: Medical experts have now concluded the wounds were most likely self inflicted.

But that doesn't change the point that xenophobia is still on the rise in Europe (and Australia).

That's what happens when xenophobic muslims are allowed to immigrate to a non muslim country bringing their ideology and superstitions with them.  :(

What an attention seeker.

Quote:

But that doesn't change the point that xenophobia is still on the rise in Europe (and Australia).

Do you think it is really Xenophobia, or more specifically just a groundswell of support from the general public,  against the intrusion of Islam into their communities.

That is how I perceive it, as a backlash against the muslims, who have caused just far too much disruption in the lives of normally tolerant westerners.

mozza,


Quote:

That is how I perceive it, as a backlash against the muslims, who have caused just far too much disruption in the lives of normally tolerant westerners.

Islam is a religion, not a category of immigrants.

I have never immigrated anywhere... what on earth does my religion have to do with immigration? Nothing!

Tell me mozza, what disruption have Muslims caused to your 'normally tolerant' life??

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2009 at 5:16am:

Update: Medical experts have now concluded the wounds were most likely self inflicted. But that doesn't change the point that xenophobia is still on the rise in Europe (and Australia).

Surprise surprise.  ::)


What I find funny in this thread is how easily Mozzaok believed the story and got swept up in labelling racists 'evil' and all the stereotypical crap.  ::)


Once again, Abu, I sincerely hope you're correct that intolerance is on the rise in Europe and Australia. We (Real Australians) really need it at the moment. Much to your displeasure.

Quote:

What I find funny in this thread is how easily Mozzaok believed the story and got swept up in labelling racists 'evil' and all the stereotypical crap

Careful, you've almost snared him. Just continue being a little more subtle and you might have won a convert to your despicable racist ideology.

I think it is a logical and normal reaction to the intrusion of Islam

Quote:

Just continue being a little more subtle and you might have won a convert to your despicable racist ideology.

LOL, not likely Abu, I would rather spend the day at the mosque with you, than side with racist scum.

What do you find funny DT, that it is eminently believable that racists would carry out acts of mindless violence?

I am also happy that it appears to not be the case in this instance, but I expect we will not have to wait long for another one which will be real.

As long as people use mindless hatred, to justify violence, I will oppose them, whether they be racists, or Islamists.

Why can't we just get back to the age of Aquarius?


Quote:

When the moon is in the Seventh House       And Jupiter aligns with Mars                   Then peace will guide the planets             And love will steer the stars                   This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius       Age of Aquarius                         Aquarius!  Aquarius!                         Harmony and understanding             Sympathy and trust abounding       No more falsehoods or derisions       Golden living dreams of visions       Mystic crystal revelation             And the mind's true liberation       Aquarius!  Aquarius!                   When the moon is in the Seventh House       And Jupiter aligns with Mars                   Then peace will guide the planets             And love will steer the stars                   This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius       Age of Aquarius                         Aquarius!  Aquarius!

So, it is time to Turn On, Tune In, and Drop Out(of the hate race)

Here is a very groooovy clip from back in the day, with some very cool clothes and dancing.
Now where did I leave my purple flairs and tie dyed top?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9oq_IskRIg&feature=related

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2009 at 5:16am:

Update: Medical experts have now concluded the wounds were most likely self inflicted. But that doesn't change the point that xenophobia is still on the rise in Europe (and Australia).

abu, I think you own an apollogy to the forum users for this bigoted remark:

Quote:

This despicable act was no doubt carried out by those who think they have a "rational fear" of other cultures, not unlike our xenophobic members here.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2009 at 9:43pm:

Quote: What I find funny in this thread is how easily Mozzaok believed the story and got swept up in labelling racists 'evil' and all the stereotypical crap Careful, you've almost snared him. Just continue being a little more subtle and you might have won a convert to your despicable racist ideology.

abu, the "undoubted facts" that you supplied prove that "despicable racist ideology" is your ideology of islamism.
Can you argue against that?
Of course not.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14^th, 2009 at 7:15pm:

mozza, Quote: That is how I perceive it, as a backlash against the muslims, who have caused just far too much disruption in the lives of normally tolerant westerners. Islam is a religion, not a category of immigrants. I have never immigrated anywhere... what on earth does my religion have to do with immigration? Nothing! Tell me mozza, what disruption have Muslims caused to your 'normally tolerant' life??

islam is almost never heard of or discussed as a religion but as a political force. And this iss because of the immigrants AND converts who enforce and reinforce its political dimentions by fatwah, demands, threats, costumes and speech.

One never, ever, hears of taoism or buddhism from their partisans in terms of politics. With islam, even its religious aspects, if raised at all, are used for the justification of exceptionalism and its political aims and actions.

You converted only because of these immigrants. 40 years ago you would havee 'converted' to maoism or communism, those being the contrarian, destructive, anti-estaablishment ideologies that many migrants brought with them at that time.

To be misguided 40 years ago was to be sympathetic to those ideologies. Today, it is to side with islam as a political program.

I think a REALITY CHECK,
.....and the reviewing of few definitions is in order.....




xenophobia = = intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.

Islamophobia = = intense or irrational fear of muslims / ISLAM.





While it is true that many Europeans begin to hate the duplicity, the lies, and the violence of ISLAM.

Is such hatred and fear of ISLAM / muslims, strange or unreasoned ????



Yes, i can see how such perceptions arise with all of the mosques, being built in Europe, and while at the same time, it has been punishable by death to have a Bible in Saudi Arabia.

And while Christians and those of other religions are persecuted [and often murdered] within Sharia jurisdictions.




http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam2.jpg
WHAT NON-MUSLIMS MUST ASK OUR OWN COMMUNITY LEADERS, IS THIS.....
.....IS THE FEAR OF WHAT ISLAM IS, AND THE FEAR OF WHAT ISLAM ENCOURAGES, IRRATIONAL???

Yes Soren, the fact that Abu's religion, cannot be separated from the political ideology of Islamic theocracy, seems to be a point he is feigning ignorance of.

It seems highly disingenuous to fall back on the, "religion only", argument, when he claims kinship with every Islamist regime around the world, and their national political struggles, which have absolutely nothing to do with australians.
He even champions the actions of extremists like Osama Bin Laden, because of their shared, "spiritual" bond, which is utter rot.
How anyone who champions mass murder can lay claim to any kind of spirituality, is totally beyond the bounds of all human decency.

As long as he continues to link religious freedom, with the Islamic ideal of implementing Sharia Law, and creating a New Caliphate, both highly political ideals, being that we Aussies already have our own common law, and our own democracy, his calls for religious freedoms, will continue to sound contrived.

soren,


Quote:

islam is almost never heard of or discussed as a religion but as a political force. And this iss because of the immigrants AND converts who enforce and reinforce its political dimentions by fatwah, demands, threats, costumes and speech.

By you and your ilk, no it isn't discussed as a religion, because you seek to deny it's very legitimacy as a religion. You're only interested in it's political aspects, as that's what suits your wishes for Islam.

That says more about your approach to Islam, than Islam's supposed lack of religiosity.


Quote:

One never, ever, hears of taoism or buddhism from their partisans in terms of politics.

You mentioned above costumes, and now you mention Buddhism. You've never seen Buddhists walking around in 'costumes'?? I don't know where you live, but I often see Buddhist monks walking around in their saffron robes. As for politics, never visited a Chinese embassy and seen the Falun Gong protestors who *constantly* maintain a presence outside? Or the hundreds of thousands of cars driving around with "Free Tibet" stickers on them? Other religions have religious/political activities here, you're just simply not interested in them, you're only interested in the political activities of Muslims.

And if you're concerned about Muslims being politically active, can we take this as a sign, you'd prefer to stifle their political freedom? Aren't you supposed to be teaching those poor, oppressed, & politically stifled Muslims about political freedom?

Or is it as I suspect, you're actually a totalitarian in disguise as a champion of human rights and freedoms?


Quote:

You converted only because of these immigrants

You're entitled to your opinion, has very little to do with reality. I know why I converted, and what factors were involved, you do not.


Quote:

40 years ago you would havee 'converted' to maoism or communism, those being the contrarian, destructive, anti-estaablishment ideologies that many migrants brought with them at that time.

If it makes you feel better to belittle my choice and to try and explain it as being merely circumstantial, go ahead. People like Marmeduke Pickthall were converting to Islam well over 40 years ago, and he in fact dedicated his life to the work for the re-establishment of the Caliphate. So it's certainly nothing new nor is it merely a consequence of who happens to be migrating into Western countries at the present.

mozzaok,


Quote:

Yes Soren, the fact that Abu's religion, cannot be separated from the political ideology of Islamic theocracy, seems to be a point he is feigning ignorance of.

There's no doubting Islam is religious and political. No ignorance here, except on your part mozza.

That's still got nothing to do with my religious/political beliefs being linked to immigrants.


Quote:

It seems highly disingenuous to fall back on the, "religion only", argument,

Since I didn't 'fall back' onto a "religion only" argument, that statement was pretty pointless. Just stating my religion has nothing to do with immigrants is nothing to do with a "religion only" argument.


Quote:

when he claims kinship with every Islamist regime around the world

Nowhere have I claimed kinship with any regime whatsoever. This is just pure bovine faeces mozza. Unlesss you'd like to link me to a statement of mine that links me with any regime??


Quote:

He even champions the actions of extremists like Osama Bin Laden

More fertiliser.


Quote:

As long as he continues to link religious freedom, with the Islamic ideal of implementing Sharia Law, and creating a New Caliphate, both highly political ideals, being that we Aussies already have our own common law, and our own democracy

I view the establishment of a Caliphate as a solution for the Muslim world, not for Australia. So the lame attempt to link it to Australia's common law and democracy is just ridiculous.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15^th, 2009 at 3:35pm:

soren, Quote: islam is almost never heard of or discussed as a religion but as a political force. And this iss because of the immigrants AND converts who enforce and reinforce its political dimentions by fatwah, demands, threats, costumes and speech. By you and your ilk, no it isn't discussed as a religion, because you seek to deny it's very legitimacy as a religion. You're only interested in it's political aspects, as that's what suits your wishes for Islam. That says more about your approach to Islam, than Islam's supposed lack of religiosity.

I and my ilk do not bring up the political dimentions of Buddhism or Taoism because the partisans of these relgions themselves don't. I and my ilk get extremely irritated and frustrated by islam because its partisans are always in my face about their political demands, fatwahs, burnings, bombings, exceptionalist demands and generally insufferable behavouur.

Women covering their faces in my city? How smacking rude is that? Singling out the costume - and ignoring the bloody acts and inciting language,  you manage to bring to attention your primitive belief about the subjugation and ill-treatment of half of humanity. Islam is misogynist, it is woman-phobic. It is shrivelled into violence by the sight of femele skin. How bloody life-denying. All it can say is - either cover them up or it is licencious promiscuity. How barbaric, unimaginative, how alien.

The safron robe is not a sign of merciless, swaggering oppresssion by semi- or illiterate bearded men who genuinely believe that they know the mind of god. Their bloody arrogance knows no bounds. They will kill or burn with acid to maintain the subjugation of their womenfolk. And that's their womenfolk, muslims women - their daughters and nieces. Whaat would they do to infidel girls and women?



Quote:

One never, ever, hears of taoism or buddhism from their partisans in terms of politics. You mentioned above costumes, and now you mention Buddhism. You've never seen Buddhists walking around in 'costumes'?? I don't know where you live, but I often see Buddhist monks walking around in their saffron robes. As for politics, never visited a Chinese embassy and seen the Falun Gong protestors who *constantly* maintain a presence outside? Or the hundreds of thousands of cars driving around with "Free Tibet" stickers on them? Other religions have religious/political activities here, you're just simply not interested in them, you're only interested in the political activities of Muslims.

How utterly ridiculous and sinister. To equate car stickers and chanting on mats with fatwahs, embassy burnings, calling for death and destructon in mosques after prayers, not to meention the sustained and purpusefull killing spree and violent intimidation by the more dedicated and bloody minded proponents of muslim orthodoxy, from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan to Britain, Madrid, Bali, Germany France, Denmark and Australia.


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And if you're concerned about Muslims being politically active, can we take this as a sign, you'd prefer to stifle their political freedom? Aren't you supposed to be teaching those poor, oppressed, & politically stifled Muslims about political freedom? Or is it as I suspect, you're actually a totalitarian in disguise as a champion of human rights and freedoms?

I want to stifle nothing. Quite the opposite. I do not want to stifled by a blatently political program that hides behind its religiosity every time it is criticised. You are welcome to the political debate but leave your fatwahs, Rage Boys, threats, open and veiled, massacres and religious special pleading at the door. Otherwise muslims call upon themselves all the scorn, ridicule and contempt freeborn citizens of any colour and persuasion can muster.






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If it makes you feel better to belittle my choice and to try and explain it as being merely circumstantial, go ahead. People like Marmeduke Pickthall were converting to Islam well over 40 years ago, and he in fact dedicated his life to the work for the re-establishment of the Caliphate. So it's certainly nothing new nor is it merely a consequence of who happens to be migrating into Western countries at the present.

He was just looking for a way to ditch his name, Marmeduke, and who can blame him.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15^th, 2009 at 3:41pm:

... I view the establishment of a Caliphate as a solution for the Muslim world, not for Australia. So the lame attempt to link it to Australia's common law and democracy is just ridiculous.

So why do you carry your jihad in Australia and on Australian forum?

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He was just looking for a way to ditch his name, Marmeduke, and who can blame him.

Perfect summation of your arguments..

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 16^th, 2009 at 1:39am:

Quote: He was just looking for a way to ditch his name, Marmeduke, and who can blame him. Perfect summation of your arguments..

You may well be right. There is something faintly ridiculous about a westeerner converting to islam. Or Buddhism or Hinduism, I hasten to add.


And then there is this, timeless gem:

"The Foreign Office would have dearly liked to have used his talents as a linguist, but instead decided to regard him as a security risk [....] His legacy is of particular interest to Muslim converts."


Pickthall was defending the turkish genocide of Armenians. Today, other massacres by other muslims are defended. Nothing's changed since WWI.

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You may well be right. There is something faintly ridiculous about a westeerner converting to islam. Or Buddhism or Hinduism, I hasten to add.

No more than them converting to Christianity, which comes from about roughly the same culture as Islam anyway. Middle Eastern Semitic. Although you'd like to playdown the similarities and shared origins, it's meaningless.

If Westerners should have a 'Western' religion, then you should go back to worshipping Odin or whatever other polytheistic crap you used to indulge in, before the Scandanavian crusade 'civilised' your lot.


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Pickthall was defending the turkish genocide of Armenians.

He was probably just painting it in a more objective light. Perhaps mentioning stuff like the Armenian rebels who were incited by Russia against the Caliphate. Who would attack Ottoman troops returning, wounded, from the fronts during the war, and then disappear into the civilian population. Funny but when the West and Israel do this today, we're told how necessary it is to attack the civilians to get the militants. Same deal back then... some how I don't think you're buying, when it's not your Zionist mates selling.


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Today, other massacres by other muslims are defended. Nothing's changed since WWI.

By WWI the Ottoman Caliphate was far out of Muslim hands. It was run by secularist nationalist Turks, who were connected with the Brits... Sorry, can't say I'm particularly defensive of them myself. However, as you'll read above, there was a lot more to it than what we're told. Especially if we buy into the militants dissolving into the crowds jazz.

Back to the topic


abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15^th, 2009 at 3:35pm:

soren, Quote: islam is almost never heard of or discussed as a religion but as a political force. And this iss because of the immigrants AND converts who enforce and reinforce its political dimentions by fatwah, demands, threats, costumes and speech. By you and your ilk, no it isn't discussed as a religion, because you seek to deny it's very legitimacy as a religion. You're only interested in it's political aspects, as that's what suits your wishes for Islam. That says more about your approach to Islam, than Islam's supposed lack of religiosity.

I and my ilk do not bring up the political dimentions of Buddhism or Taoism because the partisans of these relgions themselves don't. I and my ilk get extremely irritated and frustrated by islam because its partisans are always in my face about their political demands, fatwahs, burnings, bombings, exceptionalist demands and generally insufferable behavouur.

Women covering their faces in my city? How smacking rude is that? Singling out the costume - and ignoring the bloody acts and inciting language,  you manage to bring to attention your primitive belief about the subjugation and ill-treatment of half of humanity. Islam is misogynist, it is woman-phobic. It is shrivelled into violence by the sight of femele skin. How bloody life-denying. All it can say is - either cover them up or it is licencious promiscuity. How barbaric, unimaginative, how alien.

The safron robe is not a sign of merciless, swaggering oppresssion by semi- or illiterate bearded men who genuinely believe that they know the mind of god. Their bloody arrogance knows no bounds. They will kill or burn with acid to maintain the subjugation of their womenfolk. And that's their womenfolk, muslims women - their daughters and nieces. Whaat would they do to infidel girls and women?



Quote:

One never, ever, hears of taoism or buddhism from their partisans in terms of politics. You mentioned above costumes, and now you mention Buddhism. You've never seen Buddhists walking around in 'costumes'?? I don't know where you live, but I often see Buddhist monks walking around in their saffron robes. As for politics, never visited a Chinese embassy and seen the Falun Gong protestors who *constantly* maintain a presence outside? Or the hundreds of thousands of cars driving around with "Free Tibet" stickers on them? Other religions have religious/political activities here, you're just simply not interested in them, you're only interested in the political activities of Muslims.

How utterly ridiculous and sinister. To equate car stickers and chanting on mats with fatwahs, embassy burnings, calling for death and destructon in mosques after prayers, not to meention the sustained and purpusefull killing spree and violent intimidation by the more dedicated and bloody minded proponents of muslim orthodoxy, from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan to Britain, Madrid, Bali, Germany France, Denmark and Australia.


Quote:

And if you're concerned about Muslims being politically active, can we take this as a sign, you'd prefer to stifle their political freedom? Aren't you supposed to be teaching those poor, oppressed, & politically stifled Muslims about political freedom? Or is it as I suspect, you're actually a totalitarian in disguise as a champion of human rights and freedoms?

I want to stifle nothing. Quite the opposite. I do not want to stifled by a blatently political program that hides behind its religiosity every time it is criticised. You are welcome to the political debate but leave your fatwahs, Rage Boys, threats, open and veiled, massacres and religious special pleading at the door. Otherwise muslims call upon themselves all the scorn, ridicule and contempt freeborn citizens of any colour and persuasion can muster.

Do you believe the 'habit' of nuns to be misogynistic?

Should it be banned?

If you were alive in the time of the honoured virgin Mary (pbuh) would you have called for her head covering to be ripped off her also?

Back to Catholicism are we Aboo?

Are you aware Nuns wear many different modes of dress?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 17^th, 2009 at 6:48am:

Quote: You may well be right. There is something faintly ridiculous about a westeerner converting to islam. Or Buddhism or Hinduism, I hasten to add. No more than them converting to Christianity, which comes from about roughly the same culture as Islam anyway. Middle Eastern Semitic. Although you'd like to playdown the similarities and shared origins, it's meaningless. If Westerners should have a 'Western' religion, then you should go back to worshipping Odin or whatever other polytheistic crap you used to indulge in, before the Scandanavian crusade 'civilised' your lot.

You are missing the point, as usual.

It is not about origins only - except for Islam. For Islam, its beginning is also its end. Islam is going nowhere , and wants to go nowhere, EXCEPT where it was at its invention. It is a dead-end. Why?

A religion that is the last word will not, in effect, accept anything that is not already contained in it. It must regulate every aspect of daily life excatly because it cannot endure innovation - a word meaning the introduction of something new. Here is nothing new under Islam because there CANNOT be anything new. New is anti-islam. Being the last, unimprovable word from god, islam is fossilised and stuck. It cannot BUT insist on sharia, it cannot BUT insist on 7th century garb, social relations, hair fetish, and it cannot but insists that desert habits in Araby are of universal value and significance. It is stuck with nowhere to go. it is a dead end, has been since inception.

This is why population is neither here nor there. It is an unproductive, unmotivate, semi- or illiterate population, half of whom atre even further oppressed and repressed by the other half.  There are 400 million (read four hundred million) living muslims for every muslim Nobel Prize winner since thee inception of thee Prize over a 100 years ago.  Islam, as far as innovation, modernity and the rest of the world is concerned, is a mass of dead-eyed or uninterested people.

Just for a sense of proportion, there are 89.000 (read eighty nine thousand) jews for every jewish Nobel Prize winner. Lively or what?