The evidence is in on Islamist terrorism
February 06, 2009
Article from:  The Australian

From Melbourne to the Middle East, terrorists want to kill

ABDUL Nacer Benbrika is morally on a different planet from the rest of us and it is about time people who think the terror threat is exaggerated realise it. Benbrika was sentenced in a Melbourne court on Tuesday to 15 years for terror offences. Six of his henchmen also went to prison. The cause of their convictions explains a great deal about the way Islamist extremists, some mad, some bad and all dangerous to know, will twist the tenets of the honoured Muslim faith into a justification of mass murder. Their example shows how terrorists, from Melbourne to the Middle East, think and act the same. And it demonstrates how enemies of Israel in the West, who explain terrorism as an inevitable response to the problems of the Palestinians, miss the point. The grim reality is that for religious zealots with murder on their mind, any excuse will do.

Anybody who believes Benbrika was a misguided man who did no harm in the end should consider the evidence against him. Despite Australia giving him a home, and an unearned social security income paid to support his seven children, he was keen to kill as many of us as he could. Certainly, he said Australians deserved to die because of the country's involvement in the war against Saddam Hussein. But he also argued Islam sanctioned death for unbelievers. That Benbrika is as incompetent as he is irrational and never launched an attack does not matter. The World Trade Centre attackers were not highly trained combatants either -- struggling to fly a plane straight. As judge Bernard Bongiorno said in court, "terrorist acts as they have been experienced in modern times are often carried out by amateurs whose principal attribute has not been skill, but rather zealous or fanatical belief".

For an example of the fanaticism Justice Bongiorno points to, it is impossible to beat Samira Ahmed Jassim, who was arrested in Iraq this week. This woman is an enemy of the emerging Iraqi democracy and expressed her political opinions by organising 28 terrorist attacks. Her modus operandi was to arrange for women to be raped and then tell them the only way they could erase the shame was to blow themselves up, taking unbelievers, in this case ordinary Iraqis, invariably Muslims, with them. The pointless brutality of such crimes beggars belief for all but those who see mass murder as a form of worship. It is nonsensical to suggest that it serves any political purpose. Nor does the way the Hamas Government of Gaza uses suicide bombers and rocket attacks. Hamas has the despicable distinction of deploying the first female suicide bomber. That 2002 attack killed two, wounded 150 people and accomplished precisely nothing. Nor did the Hamas rocket attacks that led the Israeli army to intervene in Gaza last month. Hamas has no chance of defeating Israel in open war and there was no chance that Muslim nations would come to its assistance. But attacking Israel at every opportunity makes sense to anybody who believes in a divine directive to destroy the Jewish state.

It is time for people who believe Western decadence and the Iraq war are the cause of terror attacks to accept the obvious. While Islamic extremists sometimes dress up their motives in the language of conventional politics, they are at war with everybody who does not agree with them. The vast majority of Muslims understand this and recognise there is no place in their faith for terror of the Hamas and Benbrika kind. Opposition to sectarian conflict was one of the reasons Iraqis voted against religious candidates at last weekend's provincial elections, with Shia religious parties losing control of five of the seven provinces they previously ran. It is also time for enemies of Israel to stop blaming the Jewish state for war crimes it did not commit, presumably on the assumption that anything that makes Israel look bad helps Hamas, the ostensible ally of innocent Palestinians. Last month, UN officials in Gaza said Israeli forces had mortared a school where they knew civilians were sheltering. It made international headlines and undoubtedly encouraged Muslim anger all over the world. But it wasn't true -- and the UN knew it. There is no reasoning with Hamas terrorists and the Benbrikas of the world and no case for any argument that explains their actions as anything other than acts of evil.

Quote:

Opposition to sectarian conflict was one of the reasons Iraqis voted against religious candidates at last weekend's provincial elections, with Shia religious parties losing control of five of the seven provinces they previously ran.

Strange that. Abu has been claiming a resurgence of support for Islamism across the middle east.

One point on the conventional politics issue, yes these lunatics may kill regardless of the excuse, but I would prefer they killed other Muslims, thereby forcing Muslims and Islam to deal with the issue, rather than getting the west to defeat islamic terrorism then blaming thew west for all the casualties along the way.

Then keep them in the Middle East.

Excellent article Abu, thanks for posting it.
I think the mistake that people like myself and others make, is sometimes forgetting that even though Islamists commit their crimes in the name of Islam, they are not in fact truly representing Islam.
Also, when the wider community accepts that good relations with our local muslims, who do not wish to see these nutjobs flourish, is our best first line of defence against them, because it is within the Islamic community that they expose themselves, for what they are.

:D

backslider....

When is a minority not a minority?

You are so totally wrong.

Quote:

I think the mistake that people like myself and others make, is sometimes forgetting that even though Islamists commit their crimes in the name of Islam, they are not in fact truly representing Islam. Also, when the wider community accepts that good relations with our local muslims, who do not wish to see these nutjobs flourish, is our best first line of defence against them, because it is within the Islamic community that they expose themselves, for what they are.

You've put it into words well Mozzaok.  That's the point I've been trying to make with great difficulty.

mozzaok wrote on Feb 7^th, 2009 at 2:12pm:

Excellent article Abu, thanks for posting it. I think the mistake that people like myself and others make, is sometimes forgetting that even though Islamists commit their crimes in the name of Islam, they are not in fact truly representing Islam.

moz, moz, moz,

Read the Koran, and the Hadith.

Please!!!!!!

You ignorant, ignorant person.

And i mean that in the nicest way.     ;D





Quote:

Also, when the wider community accepts that good relations with our local muslims, who do not wish to see these nutjobs flourish, is our best first line of defence against them, because it is within the Islamic community that they expose themselves, for what they are.

moz,

There was a recent story on JIHADWATCH exposing how 'moderate' muslims in the UK, were enraged when a member of the muslim community exposed the sale of hate literature in British mosques.....


December 28, 2008
UK: BBC's "favorite" Muslim organization launches "witch-hunt" against Muslims who helped expose hate literature in UK mosques
"....The Muslim Public Affairs Commitee (MPACUK) is appealing to its supporters to track down the Muslim researchers who worked with the think tank Policy Exchange on a project to expose the sale of hate literature in British mosques."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024108.php

The problem is Mozz that the Muslim community is not doing enough to reign in these lunatics. They do it passively, not actively. They treat it like burglary or any other crime - you report it if you see it, but otherwise it's 'out of sight, out of mind'. When western societies have major problems, they don't just address the symptoms as they arise, they go to the root of the problem. That's why we have ads on TV helping to stamp out domestic violence, smoking, excessive alcohol consumption etc.

Abu bristles at the suggestion that the Muslim community should lift a finger to stop terrorists. He rpefers to deflect to bad things that other people do. These even goes as far as rejecting self interest. That is, the Adfghanistanis shouldn't have tried to get rid of all the terrorist training centres, even though it was inevitable that someone would end up invading and doing it for them, and kill a lot more of them along the way. Even when it comes to Iraqi Sunnis and Shites blowing up each others mosques, they cannot rise up against the perpetrators of violence. They do not take to the streets to show their support for peace. They only take to the streets to call for the murder of European cartoonists. There is something seriously wrong with their priorities.

Maybe it's just that Islam does not command them to stand up and actively fight these terrorists, so it simply never happens.

Abu is a prime example of muslim attitude...

I am NOT my brothers keeper...  so he lets others perpetrate and flourish, he cannot by dogma criticise a fellow Muslim.  He can offer aid and support though in fact is duty bound to.

Then of course there are the beliefs and dreams of the Islamic which excuses and supports even the extremists whilst knowing full well they cannot display these things outwardly in the Western societies in which they live.

Oh I hope they succeed...  destroy Israel, destroy the US, bring about the fall of Western democracy, one of these days we will have the numbers to dominate the rest, create the Caliphate, one world one religion...  etc, etc...

Grendel wrote on Feb 7^th, 2009 at 3:29pm:

Abu is a prime example of muslim attitude... I am NOT my brothers keeper...  so he lets others perpetrate and flourish, he cannot by dogma criticise a fellow Muslim.  He can offer aid and support though in fact is duty bound to. Then of course there are the beliefs and dreams of the Islamic which excuses and supports even the extremists whilst knowing full well they cannot display these things outwardly in the Western societies in which they live. Oh I hope they succeed...  destroy Israel, destroy the US, bring about the fall of Western democracy, one of these days we will have the numbers to dominate the rest, create the Caliphate, one world one religion...  etc, etc...

And of course, then PEACE will begin flourish, all over Allah's world.

Ah, it will be and ISLAMIC Utopia!!!
/sarc off

Exactly....  ::)

Quite honestly, I see both sides of this argument, those who feel that Islam is inherently evil, are usually christians, who conveniently turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy and violent musings in the text that they consider sacred, and openly vilify the muslims who see the spiritual side of their beliefs, leaving them labeled as terrorist sympathisers.

If you want to start a p1ssing match about whose religion is sillier, I will cheer from the sidelines, because I think they are all ludicrous.

I appreciate that Islam has the extra element of politicisation that others do not, which is very problematic, but not to the point where we should feel justified in vilifying complete strangers just on the basis of their religious beliefs, which is what so many here seem to desire.

I hold no more contempt for a fundamentalist muslim, than I would for a fundamentalist christian, both operate from a position totally divorced from reality, but these are the minority and do not represent the majority who just want to lead free and peaceful lives like the rest of us.

Do you see Abu as a fundamentalist? He claims that his view represents the majority of Muslims, not some fringe minority.

I do not know him well enough to make such a judgement FD.

I do feel he over reacts, often, but he is also highly provoked, often.

lol
Now you are becoming an apologist..

ROTFLMAO

If you slid back and faster you'd disappear in a wink mozz.

mozzaok wrote on Feb 7^th, 2009 at 5:44pm:

I do not know him well enough to make such a judgement FD. I do feel he over reacts, often, but he is also highly provoked, often.

Well, he supports stoning cheating wives to death, he supports the legalisation of marriage of prepubescent girls to old men in the absence of love, he supports the destruction of democracy, death for apostates, and the creation of a new Islamic dictatorship.

Sounds pretty fundamentalist to me, but he also claims it is mainstream for Muslims.

What do you think? If you are interested, I collected most of the more extreme views in the wiki and referenced them back to Muslim posts on here. From memory I think most of the references are to Abu's posts.

He supports the Koran, as it has been taught to him, and until he actually carries out any of those behaviours which are incongruous to us, I think labeling him as an extremist is just presumptuous.

mozzaok wrote on Feb 7^th, 2009 at 5:26pm:

Quite honestly, I see both sides of this argument, those who feel that Islam is inherently evil, are usually christians, who conveniently turn a blind eye to the hypocrisy and violent musings in the text that they consider sacred, and openly vilify the muslims who see the spiritual side of their beliefs, leaving them labeled as terrorist sympathisers. If you want to start a p1ssing match about whose religion is sillier, I will cheer from the sidelines, because I think they are all ludicrous. I appreciate that Islam has the extra element of politicisation that others do not, which is very problematic, but not to the point where we should feel justified in vilifying complete strangers just on the basis of their religious beliefs, which is what so many here seem to desire. I hold no more contempt for a fundamentalist muslim, than I would for a fundamentalist christian, both operate from a position totally divorced from reality, but these are the minority and do not represent the majority who just want to lead free and peaceful lives like the rest of us.

moz,

You state your opinion [above] on the basis of what received information, and what knowledge about ISLAM / muslims?

Is your opinion based on the information from ppl like abu?




moz,

In its war against 'unbelief', ISLAM has a planned strategy of 'approaching' 'unbeliever' communities, with LIES, DECEPTION and VIOLENCE.

Dar al-Harb = = "house of war", those countries where Sharia does not rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam#Dar_al-Harb

And ISLAM's interaction with 'unbeliever' communities is usually conducted, and ratcheted up, in that order - lies, deception and violence.




ONE EXAMPLE OF LIES & DECEPTION, AND CONTEMPT FOR NON-MUSLIMS....

ABC Radio National Religion interview transcript  - "The Undercover Mosque: The return"
".....Stephen Crittenden: .....your program highlights a certain kind of duplicity. When they're caught out, individuals don't miss a bit, they just say they've been taken out of context....
David Henshaw: ......Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue.....
A GROUP OF CHRISTIANS VISITING THE MOSQUE and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat them kindly and talk about 'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'.
JUST AS SOON AS THAT GROUP OF VISITORS LEAVES, THE LANGUAGE CHANGES COMPLETELY. 'CHRISTIANITY IS VILE', the preacher says.....
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionreport/stories/2008/2360820.htm#transcript


Devout muslims will lie to your face.

To all devout muslims 'unbelievers' are always held beneath contempt.

And this TRUTH is often openly exposed, when muslims are heard to talk candidly, among themselves.




moz,

If you learn, or come to understand that a 'source' of information about ISLAM [from within ISLAM] is going to lie to you, then if you want correct [and verifiable] information, shouldn't you seriously discount, or at least be very sceptical of the veracity of that information, which coming from within ISLAM itself???

To me, that seems a logical conclusion to come to.



Then what could be a source of TRUTHFUL information about ISLAM [including its aims and methods]?

I would suggest one source could be EX-muslims.

EX-muslims are people who know ISLAM intimately!

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/



ADDITIONAL....

Look at what is happening within muslim communities today, in Europe....

Belgium - Militant Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-inob20I_Y0



moz, compare ISLAMIC values with your own values....

Halal + Haraam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqiplL8ReFU


Muslims Grievances
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFL-QcpnZq8




+++++++++++




From the Koran....

"O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.118


"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.073
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/066.qmt.html#066.009


"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.216


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

Quote:

He supports the Koran, as it has been taught to him, and until he actually carries out any of those behaviours which are incongruous to us, I think labeling him as an extremist is just presumptuous.

So you think he'll have a change of heart at the last minute and oppose these vile things he has supported here? Unfortunately it would probably be too late by then.

Are you suggesting we ignore what he actually says and just respond to his actions? How does that work on an internet forum? It would be like telling a Nazi it's OK for them to support slaughtering Jews because we know you'll come to your senses eventually.

FD.
Pick a box.
Put them in it.

Do you fell safer?

Yadda, I have met many devout christians, who I would not p1ss on, if they were on fire, they talk the talk, but they are sick, evil, creeps, so excuse me if I do not join your happy clappers for the christian crusaders markII.

I will make it simple for you, I think most people are good, kind, loving, and want a peaceful life, and that is irrespective of whatever belief system they adhere to.

Now the others, the sick twists, can come from any background also, and I must say that I would probably be less repulsed conversing with a brainwashed jihadist, than a brainwashed evangelical christian, but because of my ethnicity, I would be more at threat from a jihadist.

I bemoan the fact that troubled youths are so easily led into extremism, and I do not like the teachings they believe in, but I refuse to condemn all muslims, on the same basis that I refuse to condemn all christians, because in the end they are people, and how they live their lives, is determined on a personal level, and most make decent choices.

I prefer the old mozz, the one just b4 this new one.
Did you fall on your head?

Enough with your anti-religious claptrap.
Focus on the issue.

They aint a minority in any real sense of the word.

Mozz has always been anti-religious.

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2009 at 1:10pm:

Are you suggesting we ignore what he actually says and just respond to his actions? How does that work on an internet forum? It would be like telling a Nazi it's OK for them to support slaughtering Jews because we know you'll come to your senses eventually.

No, what you need to do is stop being Germanophobic and engage in dialogue with the moderate Nazis. The Third Reich existed only because foreign powers kept interfering in German lands.