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The leader of a Melbourne-based terrorist cell has been sentenced to 15 years' jail. Abdul Nacer Benbrika, 48, of Dallas, was sentenced to a non-parole period of 12 years. He has already served 1184 days in custody.

Good news today, that this extremist nutjob, who reportedly hoped to blow up as many aussies as he could on grand final day, has been locked up for a long time, as he should be.

I think I recall our resident muslims proclaiming that these creeps would be exonerated because they had not actually achieved their goals of mass murder, fortunately they were wrong, as usual.

Aussies hold no tolerance for scum like this, nor for any who support them, so I say again, this is a good day for aussies, because it shows that we will not go soft on creeps who seek to bring jihad to our shores.

These sentences are as they should be. What needs to happen now is open debate on dealing with Islamism... To legally define it with a view to banning it by law. Ironically that will do more to save Islam than destroy it.

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I think I recall our resident muslims proclaiming that these creeps would be exonerated because they had not actually achieved their goals of mass murder, fortunately they were wrong, as usual.

I think you recall incorrectly, as usual.

I said some of the evidence seemed a little flimsy, that's about it.

Don't let that get in the way of your islamophobic rants though.. carry on.

Fair enough Abu, I could not recall exactly what you said, just that you thought they would get off.

I assumed you referring to the case being flimsy was due to the fact that they had only talked about murdering people, rather than actually achieving that goal, if that was not what you meant, I apologise.

But I think you would agree that it is good for aussies, of all persuasions, including muslims, to have creeps like thisoff our streets.
In fact, it is Islam that can benefit the most, from ridding itself of nutjobs like this guy, who tarnish the reputations of other muslims, with his obscene aims, and cruel, and violent rhetoric.

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Fair enough Abu, I could not recall exactly what you said, just that you thought they would get off.

Some did get off mozza, all I did was note that a few of them were acquitted. It's  past tense, because they were acquitted long ago. This news you've posted  is only about 1 person. Don't know why you're using the word "they".

I made no expression of hope or wish for them, I merely stated what happened.


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I assumed you referring to the case being flimsy was due to the fact that they had only talked about murdering people,

No, it was due to the fact that the case mostly relied upon the testimony of a witness who talks with birds and was a complete loony. And that the only one in the group who actually had anything remotely to do with explosives was the ASIO plant... And that the prime piece of evidence was a DVD.


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But I think you would agree that it is good for aussies, of all persuasions, including muslims

I don't think anybody in Australia wants people running around planting explosives. Don't forget many Muslims attend footy games each week, including grand finals.

Remember this next time you want to demonise all Muslims for the actions (or supposed intentions in this case, as they never actually did anything) of a few.


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In fact, it is Islam that can benefit the most, from ridding itself of nutjobs like this guy

As I've noted in other threads, Abu Hamza, the "Melbourne cleric" now being attacked for supposedly encouraging wife beating and rape was a witness for the prosecution in the case, and was also instrumental in discouraging and opposing Ben Brika in the Muslim community.

I am not getting any impression from you, that you share in the satisfaction of seeing this terrorist locked up, you still seem to be leaning towards blaming asio for entrapping him.

I don't expect you will get the fact that it is these guys who are stuffing up your religion, and ruining it's reputation, and therefore it is Islam that has the most to gain by weeding out these loonies from your community.

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I am not getting any impression from you, that you share in the satisfaction of seeing this terrorist locked up, you still seem to be leaning towards blaming asio for entrapping him.

No more satisfaction than what I get from seeing any other person locked up who's causing violence in our streets. Christians have turned Melbournes streets into a gangland warzone over the past 10 years.. Are Christians any more satisfied because a lot of the culprits are dead or behind bars now? I think all citizens are probably just as  satisfied. Should I be more satisfied because I'm a Muslim?


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I don't expect you will get the fact that it is these guys who are stuffing up your religion, and ruining it's reputation

No they're not, liars and islamophobes who go around spreading lies and misinformation about Islam are, and who try to promote hatred and mistrust between Muslims and non-Muslims.

Don't try to blame your hatred of Islam on some bad eggs amongst the Muslim community. Take responsibility for YOUR hatred, yourself.

Is that your idea of a joke Abu?

So the whole Islamist jihad, and worldwide terror networks of Islam, is all down to "a few bad eggs".

Try getting your head off the ground long enough to look around, before these nutjobs hijacked Islam, nobody had a problem with muslims.

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Try getting your head off the ground long enough to look around, before these nutjobs hijacked Islam, nobody had a problem with muslims.

mozzaok, Osama Bin Laden was fighting Jihad since the early 80's. Nobody in the West had a problem whatsoever with him, cause he was fighting our wars for us, against the Soviets. He had thee exact same beliefs, same ideology, was just as militant, had the same training camps etc. Nobody in the West even knew his name, outside intelligence circles. US backed countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc. were actually putting up posters in mosques for free fares to Afghanistan, to fight in Jihad.. nobody had a problem whatsoever...

Saddam Hussein had a relationship with the US and her intelligence services stretching back to 1959. When he was gassing Iranians & Kurds nobody had a problem with him at all. In fact Rumsfeld went to meet him at the time and congratulate him on what a great job he was doing.

http://tinyrevolution.com/mt/mt-static/images/rumsfeld.jpg

As I've said, they didn't change, the West did. When the Soviets fell, everything changed. OBL became the most evil person on earth, Saddam came close second. The US invaded Iraq, then kept it suffering under sanctions and blockade for about 11 years, until they finally invaded again and then  Afghanistan.


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So the whole Islamist jihad, and worldwide terror networks of Islam, is all down to "a few bad eggs".

I was talking about Muslims in Australia.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:02pm:

No they're not, liars and islamophobes who go around spreading lies and misinformation about Islam are, and who try to promote hatred and mistrust between Muslims and non-Muslims. Don't try to blame your hatred of Islam on some bad eggs amongst the Muslim community. Take responsibility for YOUR hatred, yourself.

So the way muslims act has no impact on how others percieve and judge them?

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 7:43pm:

I think I recall our resident muslims proclaiming that these creeps would be exonerated because they had not actually achieved their goals of mass murder, fortunately they were wrong, as usual.

I think you recall incorrectly, as usual.


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I said some of the evidence seemed a little flimsy, that's about it.

Yeah they sent you over the trial brief did they Chief Wigam? muppet.

Like you'd know what the evidence was, or its significance even if was used to beat you into (or perhaps out of) a coma.

Look Abu, you will get no argument from me about the USA's atrocious foreign policy debacles, going right back to WW2, they interfered in the middle east, and africa, and latin america, even in europe, and were a law unto themselves.

And I am familiar with how the US helped Bin Laden become as influential as he did, because they wanted to use him to fight the russians, and how they propped up Saddam Hussein's evil regime, and I still condemn those actions now, as I did when they were happening, but you are ignoring the actions that Islamists have engaged in over the last fifty years.

While the Neo-Cons were manipulating washington, we also had the muslim brotherhood spreading it's message of anti western hatred, which resulted in the beginnings of Islamic terrorism against the west, and you need to accept that as the evil influence that it is.

It was Islam that declared itself an enemy of the west, and when it started to target civilians, to display this hatred, is when westerners like myself began to see a growing problem with Islam.

In the western democracies, we have the power to get rid of officials who promote violence and hatred, yet Islam has no mechanism to rid itself of Islamist extremism, and since they have hijacked the religion of Islam, more and more westerners are identifying Islam as not just a part of the problem, but THE problem, because of it's inability to control the actions ot those who promote violence in it's name.

Calanen,


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I think you recall incorrectly, as usual.

And I think you've quoted the wrong person. That statement which you put my name to is actually mozza's statement.


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Like you'd know what the evidence was, or its significance even if was used to beat you into (or perhaps out of) a coma.

It was well reported in the media how flimsy the evidence was, and that the Judge himself made it quite plain to the jury that a lot of the case against them is hinging on the lunatic witness who talks to birds and was known to be a habitual liar.

Go dig up the original thread and check the conversations which took place. You seem a little out of touch.

mozza,


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Look Abu, you will get no argument from me about the USA's atrocious foreign policy debacles, going right back to WW2, they interfered in the middle east, and africa, and latin america, even in europe, and were a law unto themselves.

Right, so you agree Muslims have some serious grievances? And can understand why some might get militant and fight back?

Or do you think bad luck, you should just suffer it.

It's quite ironic that you often take the side of those who respond with military force... if they're Americans, British, Israelis etc. Yet you clearly admit the West has committed a lot of bad stuff against Muslims over the decades... but Muslims have no justifiable reason for responding, right?

Can you understand why most Muslims might consider that as being a little unfair and one sided?


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And I am familiar with how the US helped Bin Laden become as influential as he did, because they wanted to use him to fight the russians, and how they propped up Saddam Hussein's evil regime

Right, and the same people who were in Baghdad shaking his hand, are the same people who waged war on the innocent Iraqi people. Btw, they didn't just prop him up, they actually put him into power.


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While the Neo-Cons were manipulating washington, we also had the muslim brotherhood spreading it's message of anti western hatred, which resulted in the beginnings of Islamic terrorism against the wes

You need to stop placing so much trust in one single documentary you saw which claimed this. The Muslim Brotherhood began in the 1920's as a movement to restore the Caliphate. They never engaged in any acts of terrorism, nor taught terrorism, nor had any connection to terrorism whatsoever, this is just nonsense. About the closest the MB came to being connected to terrorism, was that they were linked to bombings of US and Britiish targets in Egyptt during the 1950's, which were later found to be committed by Israeli spies...

Today it's popular to associate the MB, and specifically Sayyid Qutb (May God be pleased with him) with terrorism. This is largely a Saudi attempt to say "Hey we're not the terrorists, the MB are".

Neither of them ever had any connection to terrorism at all.

Your views seemed to be pretty shallow mozza, and seem to be just formed by what you heard in some documentary, or read in some book. Rather than actually having a comprehensive understanding about the situation and the players involved.


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It was Islam that declared itself an enemy of the west, and when it started to target civilians, to display this hatred, is when westerners like myself began to see a growing problem with Islam.

Bin Laden never made these statements until long after the West had been slaughtering Muslims by the tens of thousands. Can you blame anyone for getting a little hostile after all the attacks and murders of Muslims?

If tens of thousands of Australians were slaughtered... wouldn't you become a little militarised?


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In the western democracies, we have the power to get rid of officials who promote violence and hatred, yet Islam has no mechanism to rid itself of Islamist extremism, and since they have hijacked the religion of Islam

The West are the instigators. Muslim militant groups are merely reactionaries. They're simply responding to a threat which has long been unleashed against the Muslims. You admitted this clearly yourself above. Even the former head of the Bin Laden unit of the CIA, Michael Scheuer has stated that Bin Laden is involved purely in a defensive war. He is merely defending the Islamic lands and the continued onslaught against them.

mozzaok wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 8:46pm:

I am not getting any impression from you, that you share in the satisfaction of seeing this terrorist locked up, you still seem to be leaning towards blaming asio for entrapping him. I don't expect you will get the fact that it is these guys who are stuffing up your religion, and ruining it's reputation, and therefore it is Islam that has the most to gain by weeding out these loonies from your community.

mozza, the impression your getting now and in the previous topic, is I suggest, the correct one. Their recruitment and enthusiasim for their planned actions were of course everybody elses fault. :o

Yes Locutious, Abu does give the impression of having completely bought into the Islamist's justification for terrorism.

He parrots the rhetoric we here from Islamist extremists, and then acts shocked when confronted with the suspicion and mistrust which naturally follows such revelations.

This fact can only deepen the divide between muslims, and non-muslims, when he cannot even comprehend how disturbing it is, to hear an aussie, who converted to a foreign set of beliefs, openly spouting justifications for the likes of bin laden, and of course like all good muslims, he blames the jews, and the west, but brooks no criticism of Islam.

It is funny how you condemn me for the sources of my information, books, and documentaries, as if that is not a legitimate way to garner information, do you think only militant muftis provide unbiased opinions?

We must assume so, because you buy their line of bull, without question.

Seeing how blinkered you are on these issues, only furthers the fears that people like myself, feel towards Islam, when in one short decade, you become an apologist for terrorists, because they share your adopted belief system.

Insofar as anything can be saved from itself, it would be remiss of the vigilant among us not, in our own way, to try to save Islam from Islamism - its violent internal momentum... and in doing so save us all, Muslims and non-Muslims alike from Islamic nihilism.... Muslims, apparently, are not able to do it alone.

Rudd and Turnbull and O'Bama are all wrong about the priority of jobs. What this country needs is more people like this: 'learned persons' of the mohammedan persuasion 'intensifying their involvement with Islam'.


Kingpin let nation support him while he preached jihad
Gary Hughes | February 04, 2009
The Australian

Benbrika, 48, came to Australia on a visitor's visa in 1989, fleeing the war in his native Algeria and seeking greater religious freedom.

He obtained permanent residency after marrying an Australian citizen in 1992 and, as he was unemployed, used his spare time to "intensify his involvement with Islam".

"Employment positions were not readily obtainable, so with more idle time Benbrika spent more of each day immersed in religious texts," his lawyer Remy van de Wiel QC said in a submission to the Victorian Supreme Court.

Later, while Benbrika was busy preaching jihad to his followers, he and his family were supported by a disability pension, which he received for stomach problems, and by family support payments for his wife and seven children.

During 482 secretly recorded conversations played to the jury last year in the marathon trial of Benbrika and his followers, the only time he expressed an interest in obtaining work was when he asked about getting a cleaning job for cash payments.

The generous financial support enabled Benbrika, who had worked as an aircraft engineer in Algeria, to become what Mr van de Wiel described as "recognised as a learned person", who was sought after for religious advice as he became a recognised cleric.



Sought after, eh? A role model in his community.

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Sought after, eh? A role model in his community.

You know what's even more amusing? He gets a Queens Counsel on the taxpayer dime to represent him for what, a 12 month trial? Few million dollars or so right there.

All of the Religion of Peacers charged with crimes get Legal Aid, because they are on welfare.

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You know what's even more amusing? He gets a Queens Counsel on the taxpayer dime to represent him for what, a 12 month trial? Few million dollars or so right there. All of the Religion of Peacers charged with crimes get Legal Aid, because they are on welfare.

That is one more reason why we prefer our system, as it even supplies true justice, and full representation, to people of all persuasions.

If he tried to promote such treasonous acts in an Islamic country, he would most likely be dead by now.

So as far as paying for his representation, I have no complaints, but anyone that lives on welfare, and just keeps having kids, effectively spongeing off the rest of us, is something I do have reservations about, no matter what religious background they have.

Mind you, the sheer gall of people like benbrika, that openly badmouth our system, yet have no qualms about bludgeing off it, really p1sses me off.

I live in Melbourne North Abu, the only gangs I see are Lebo's and Turks. Just how many Muslims are in our jails but a Muslim would never do anything illegal, whould he.

Two things about him being a dole bludger. One, he was an aircraft engineer. He should have been able to get a decent job quite easily. The fact that an experienced engineer would look for work for cash in hand, then become a respected member of the Muslim communit while behaving this way, gives me serious doubts about the local Muslim community. What other groups of people make dole bludgers their 'respected leaders? Second, if he was into Jihad, being an aircraft engineer may well have been a better way to do it. It certainly wouldn't have required him to bring in an unknown explosives expert.

Calanen,


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All of the Religion of Peacers charged with crimes get Legal Aid, because they are on welfare.

Yeh all Muslims are on welfare aren't they Calanen... Just stay in your only little delusional anti-Islamic fantasy world, don't concern yourself with the reality happening around you.

mozza,


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Mind you, the sheer gall of people like benbrika, that openly badmouth our system, yet have no qualms about bludgeing off it, really p1sses me off.

Agreed mozza, that is just plain wrong. But that's not a Muslim thing, there's plenty of non-Muslims who do that. Islam has special requirements  for Muslims who take up residence in a non-Muslim country, and if Ben Brika were as knowledgable as is claimed, then he would've been aware of them.

jfk,


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I live in Melbourne North Abu, the only gangs I see are Lebo's and Turks. Just how many Muslims are in our jails but a Muslim would never do anything illegal, whould he.

Certainly not as many as there are Christians in our gaols.

freediver,


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then become a respected member of the Muslim communit while behaving this way, gives me serious doubts about the local Muslim community.

Self proclaimed respect is generally not as great as it might be made out to be. I personally never even heard of the guy before the trial. And I attend the larger mosques around Melbourne. I think you'll find most Muslims in Melbourne would never have heard of the guy before this incident. He was not imam of a mosque, nor head of any known Islamic organisation, so please stop trrying to make this something it is not. As usual your imagination plays a much larger role in your arguments than your intellect.

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Yeh all Muslims are on welfare aren't they Calanen... Just stay in your only little delusional anti-Islamic fantasy world, don't concern yourself with the reality happening around you.

All the ones charged with terror crimes have been.

Every...single...one.

Not one Muslim charged with a terror crime has had a privately paying brief. They are all funded by Legal Aid.

What is it about Islam that turns out these mass murderers? I cannot believe that it is pure coincidence that this guy happened to be Muslim. There have been thousands of Australians of various ideologies, both religious and political, that have grievances over something happening to the 'compatriots' overseas. They have protested vigourously. Sometimes they even went to far and the protest turned violent. But now we have a tiny Muslim community in Australia and it all changes and we get people who instead of protesting, decide to blow up a stadium full of people.

It cannot even be that lunatics happen to be attracted to Islam and it gets it's bad name that way. Yes Australia has its share of lunatics, but they don't plot to blow up stadiums or busses.

Likewise, the west has seen plenty of terrorists, but they are usually people who grew up with the violence and learned to hate that way. They were not spoilt dole bludging white boys one the other side of the world to the actual violence who one day decided to slaughter as manny innocent people as possible.

Same story with the London bombers.

What is it about Islam that makes the lunatics get such grand schemes in their heads?

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What is it about Islam that turns out these mass murderers?

Firstly, they're not mass murderers. You aren't guilty of a crime till you've committed it, not just conspired to commit it.


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I cannot believe that it is pure coincidence that this guy happened to be Muslim.

But it's coincidence that Timothy McVeigh for instance was a Christian, right?


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There have been thousands of Australians of various ideologies, both religious and political, that have grievances over something happening to the 'compatriots' overseas. They have protested vigourously.

You mean like 99.9% of Muslims do?


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Sometimes they even went to far and the protest turned violent.

How about when they firebomb Mosques? This kind of behaviour by "Aussies who were grieved by something that happened overseas" stretches right back to the 1980's, long before 9/11 and Bali.


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It cannot even be that lunatics happen to be attracted to Islam and it gets it's bad name that way. Yes Australia has its share of lunatics, but they don't plot to blow up stadiums or busses.

Nah they just goto major tourist destinations or busy coffee shop strips and open fire with high powered rifles..

Which makes it ok, right?


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Likewise, the west has seen plenty of terrorists, but they are usually people who grew up with the violence and learned to hate that way. They were not spoilt dole bludging white boys one the other side of the world to the actual violence who one day decided to slaughter as manny innocent people as possible.

Ben brika grew up in a country torn by civil war... Hardly a spoilt white dole bludger.

Anyway according to most sources he was a fairly benevolent fellow until the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. As Michael Scheuer has noted, these two invasions caused more Muslims to turn angry and militant than all of Bin Laden's years of trying to recruit people. Bush is the best recruiting agent al-Qaeda ever had.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 7^th, 2009 at 1:27am:

Quote: What is it about Islam that turns out these mass murderers? Firstly, they're not mass murderers. You aren't guilty of a crime till you've committed it, not just conspired to commit it.

In the common law, the punishment for attempt and conspiracy to commit a crime, is the same as if it were committed. Just because the cops stop you before you can do something, doesn't mean your punishment should be less for what you fully intended to do.


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I cannot believe that it is pure coincidence that this guy happened to be Muslim.

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But it's coincidence that Timothy McVeigh for instance was a Christian, right?

Yes. Because what Timothy McVeigh was doing had nothing to do with him being a Christian (my dim recollection is that he was not particularly religious). He didnt blow up the Murrah Building, because he said his christian beliefs made him. Muslims, blow up things, and kill people - BECAUSE THEY SAY ISLAM TELLS THEM TOO.

That's the differrence and its a big one.


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There have been thousands of Australians of various ideologies, both religious and political, that have grievances over something happening to the 'compatriots' overseas. They have protested vigourously.

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You mean like 99.9% of Muslims do?

For every soldier in the field, there are 9 other support persons behind him providing money, medical attention and support. And the Islamic community constantly makes excuses for, covers up and sides with people who commit terror.

The Islamic community sympathises with terrorists, and seeks to blame the victims - demonstrating their support. The Islamic community is far more interested in silencing westerners noticing Islamic terror and hate, by calling them racists and islamophobes, than it is in doing anything to stop such people.

The Islamic community never informs on other members of the community who are seeking to recruit terrorists or form cells. They never give evidence against other muslims, because they see terror and jihad as their patriotic duty, and our laws as rubbish.

Great citizens.


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Sometimes they even went to far and the protest turned violent.

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How about when they firebomb Mosques? This kind of behaviour by "Aussies who were grieved by something that happened overseas" stretches right back to the 1980's, long before 9/11 and Bali.

Firebomb mosques? That hasnt happened recently, and I know this because - if it had, the Religion of Peacers would all be on the news staging photos by throwing childrens toys into the ashes to sell on Reueters, with crying women and screaming about the need for justice.

On the other hand, Religion of Peacers having been torching and attacking Synagogues all across Europe. But that goes under-reported by Al Ja Reuters.


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Nah they just goto major tourist destinations or busy coffee shop strips and open fire with high powered rifles..

A mentally ill guy, one dude, buys a rifle and kills a whole heap of people. He did not do it because of a religious ideology. He did it because he was nuts and a psychopath.  You have a group, Islam, which does things like Mumbai, coordinated by sane people, because of the religion, and they say its because of the religion.



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Ben brika grew up in a country torn by civil war... Hardly a spoilt white dole bludger.

Boo hoo for him. Things are tough all over. And there was no civil war here. But if people like him keep going, their might be.


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Anyway according to most sources he was a fairly benevolent fellow until the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. As Michael Scheuer has noted, these two invasions caused more Muslims to turn angry and militant than all of Bin Laden's years of trying to recruit people. Bush is the best recruiting agent al-Qaeda ever had.

So the way to protest US foreign policy is to kill innocent people in another country. Way to go their genius. If you are an angry muslim, go join the Taliban and get strafed by A-10s. But attacking civilians in Western countries, is just an act of extreme cowardice by people who should be shot.

The death penalty is too good for people who conspire terror against the Australian state.

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In the common law, the punishment for attempt and conspiracy to commit a crime, is the same as if it were committed.

But you still call the person a mass murderer. That was all my point was, stop deviating.


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Yes. Because what Timothy McVeigh was doing had nothing to do with him being a Christian (my dim recollection is that he was not particularly religious)

It was a revenge attack for Waco... yeh not religious at all.


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For every soldier in the field, there are 9 other support persons behind him providing money, medical attention and support. And the Islamic community constantly makes excuses for, covers up and sides with people who commit terror

Yeh we know the "all Muslims are guilty by association" argument, please spare us your xenophobic crap.


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if it had, the Religion of Peacers would all be on the news staging photos by throwing childrens toys into the ashes to sell on Reueters, with crying women and screaming about the need for justice.

That's right, when anything happens to Muslims, it's all just staged for sympathy,, when it happens to Westerners, Muslims are the epitome of evil. You've dehumanised your enemy sufficiently... nothing stopping you now is there?


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A mentally ill guy, one dude, buys a rifle and kills a whole heap of people

Go back and read the statement it was in repsonse to, you'll find it's quite relevant. Wouldn't expect you to read anything in context though would we..


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Boo hoo for him. Things are tough all over.

Again, read what it was in response to Calanen, you'll see it's quite relevant.

Is it just me? or did you just quote all my statements you responded to WITH the original statement of freediver's I was responding to.. EXCEPT these last two? Wonder why?


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So the way to protest US foreign policy is to kill innocent people in another country

US foreign policy is 1000 times worse, it's killed far more innocent people... but i forgot they're just dehumanised Muslims to you, so it doesn't count.

Anyway Scheuer didn't say iot justifies it, he just said there's a clear connection and it's pretty damn stupid to deny it and neglect this fact.

Guess it's kind of like your arguments about Israel and Gaza, that Hamas' actions incur the wrath of Israel, so they've got nobody to blame but themselves... Likewise mate.

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Guess it's kind of like your arguments about Israel and Gaza, that Hamas' actions incur the wrath of Israel, so they've got nobody to blame but themselves... Likewise mate.

So the victims of terror in Australia, if muslims commit acts of terror in Aus, have no one to blame but themselves?

Wait a sec - this is a Hallmark moment - Abu shows his *real* colours. You thought you saw them before, but, they are really out there now.

And people wonder why anyone would question a muslim's loyalty to Australia. So did you say that the victims of the Bali bombings had no one to blame but themselves?

I bet you did - didn't you?

Abu, for such a lengthy response, you did a great job of avoiding the point. Which was, why is it that Islam turns out the mass murderers?


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You mean like 99.9% of Muslims do?

Duh. Nice defelection, but it's the 0.1% that I'm asking about Abu. Why is it that Islam has the 0.1%?

Why is it that Islam seems to combine the rage required to slaughter so many innocent people, with the cool, calculating, controlled, methodical follow through needed to actually pull something like 9/11, or Bali, or the London bombings? Normally, the straight thinking required for such a detailed plan would also give people second thoughts. Is it that Islam provides an alternative motive, other than rage, for mass slaughter? A motive that isn't undermined by otherwise rational thought processes? Is it that Islam somehow makes it rational? You switch between deflecting to the 99.9%, or the actions of the 'evil west'. Does Islam some rationalise things like 9/11, Bali and the London bombings in the same way that western leaders rationalise going to war? Does it make terrorism an inevitable extension of war? Does it make Muslims identify so strongly with people on the other side of the world, and so weakly with the people they interact with every day, that they would slaughter them in cold blood in response to a war on the other side of the world?

Maybe it's because like Abu, so many Muslims automatically deflect away from the actual acts, which leads their less intelligent brethren to conclude that they support terrorism and consider it righteous. Are you seriously incapable of seeing the distinction between islamic terrorism, people like the metnally ill McVeigh McVeigh, and people like George Bush? Can you not distuinguish between a blind rage making something do something stupid, and the careful planning of a terrorist attack? Can you not distinguish the actions of a government in deciding to go to war from the actions of citizen choosing to pointlessly slaughter as many fellow citizens as he can? Because by refusing to acknowledge what you see, or being incapable of seeing it in the first place, you are effectively telling people like Benbrika that they are no worse that George Bush if the blow up a stadium full of people. Perhaps that is what you really think. Perhaps being a Muslim makes you incapable of seeing the difference.

I'm not suggesting this is the answer. It is a genuine question. I am having a go at answering it myself because you seem so intent on avoiding it.

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I'm not suggesting this is the answer. It is a genuine question. I am having a go at answering it myself because you seem so intent on avoiding it.

I think you make the same mistake most people make about Islam. They think that because there are only relatively few actual terrorists that the rest of the community has no interest in terror and is on OUR side (yeah right). But it's the tip of the iceberg. In drug cases, there are always informants from inside the drug cartels.

In Islamic terror cases - I have never seen one muslim informant give evidence against the 'terrorists'. Not a single one. What does this tell you? Just coincidence.

Someone is providing enough money to finance an enormous army in the field in Afghanistan. Huge amounts of ammunition, food, medical supplies. That is all coming from somewhere. The amount of money the US needs to keep its military going should be an indication of how much money is being put there.

And jihad has always been a partial obligation for the community. You can participate by providing money, supplies, weapons, and are relieved of your obligation.

The attitude of Islam towards terror indicates to me, that they are cheering from the sidelines (like Abu who blames the Bali bombing victims as having brought it on themselves), some would be contributing money, others turning the blind eye when terror cells are recruiting in mosques. They are certainly not on our side however.

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They think that because there are only relatively few actual terrorists that the rest of the community has no interest in terror and is on OUR side (yeah right).

Having no interest in terrorism does not put them on our side. I expect them to take an active itnerest in it. Failing to identify and seriously act on such a problem within their community is enough to allow terrorism to flourish.


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Someone is providing enough money to finance an enormous army in the field in Afghanistan.

I call them drug adicts.

It is so black and white to some people, like those who say, even in jest, to just drop a nuke on the middle east and just get on with it.

The US and by extension, most western nations, must bear responsibility  for the actions of previous generations, which has led to the great discontent in the arab world.
Of course I hope that leaders of vision can arise who can help us put these wrongs to rest, once and for all, but to merely contend that arabs are crazy and just want to kill westerners for no reason, is plainly wrong, and does nothing to help uss reconcile the faults of the past, so we can eliminate them from our future.

freediver wrote on Feb 7^th, 2009 at 4:24pm:

Quote: They think that because there are only relatively few actual terrorists that the rest of the community has no interest in terror and is on OUR side (yeah right). Having no interest in terrorism does not put them on our side. I expect them to take an active itnerest in it. Failing to identify and seriously act on such a problem within their community is enough to allow terrorism to flourish. [quote]Someone is providing enough money to finance an enormous army in the field in Afghanistan.

I call them drug adicts.[/quote]

Poppies are a big source of funds, no question. But not the only source by any means. Lots of petro dollars, donations from the Islamic community, and aid from government sources like Pakistan and Yemen.

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The US and by extension, most western nations, must bear responsibility  for the actions of previous generations, which has led to the great discontent in the arab world.

Gimme a break. You need to crack a history book and see that the Muslims have been attacking us for 100s of years before the US even existed.

They are believers in a theocratic supremacist doctrine which says we all have to die, or live as slaves under Islamic rule. That is what the cause of the problem is. Not whatever latest Islamic grievance gets manufactured, whether it be cartoons in Denmark, Teddy Bears named Mohammed, Israel, Rumsfeld, any of that - its all bs.