I respect people of any and every religion :) , including atheism,  who do not push their theological views upon me by force, etc..

As for islam the experience shows that it is unspeakable thing, for example even hard core islamist like abu prefers to speak about Talmud rather then its cheap and erroneous imitation known as ...koran.

I notice Muslims get justifiably upset when other people (eg Yadda and Sprint) claim to know better than they do what Islam is all about and interpret the Koran themselves, claiming the interpretation represents the beliefs of actual Muslims. But then they will happily turn around and insist they know better than Christians or Jews what Christianity or Judaism is all about. If anything, it makes me doubt his ability to gauge what Islam is really about when he claims the same sort of authority on Christianity and Judaism.

freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2009 at 9:59pm:

I notice Muslims get justifiably upset when other people (eg Yadda and Sprint) claim to know better than they do what Islam is all about and interpret the Koran themselves, claiming the interpretation represents the beliefs of actual Muslims. But then they will happily turn around and insist they know better than Christians or Jews what Christianity or Judaism is all about. If anything, it makes me doubt his ability to gauge what Islam is really about when he claims the same sort of authority on Christianity and Judaism.

lol...yeah right. Whats their to get upset about. Yadda and sprint no nothing, they just cut and paste whatever anti-material they can find on the net, and you, being the bigot you are, will swallow it readily.

Yadda and sprint are actually rather clueless..they come across as pretty dumb to be honest, and it doesn't surprise me at all that you hang on every word they say.

Might be why no one takes you seriously anymore. How does it feel being considered a joke on your own forum. Thats gotta hurt.  :D

You know what they say..the blind leading the blind. :D

Lestat wrote on Jan 31^st, 2009 at 7:33am:

freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2009 at 9:59pm: I notice Muslims get justifiably upset when other people (eg Yadda and Sprint) claim to know better than they do what Islam is all about and interpret the Koran themselves, claiming the interpretation represents the beliefs of actual Muslims. But then they will happily turn around and insist they know better than Christians or Jews what Christianity or Judaism is all about. If anything, it makes me doubt his ability to gauge what Islam is really about when he claims the same sort of authority on Christianity and Judaism. lol...yeah right. Whats their to get upset about. Yadda and sprint no nothing, they just cut and paste whatever anti-material they can find on the net, and you, being the bigot you are, will swallow it readily. Yadda and sprint are actually rather clueless..they come across as pretty dumb to be honest, and it doesn't surprise me at all that you hang on every word they say. Might be why no one takes you seriously anymore. How does it feel being considered a joke on your own forum. Thats gotta hurt.  :D You know what they say..the blind leading the blind. :D

It is the millions like you who make today's islam simultaneously dangerous and ridiculous.

and highlight muslims arrogance, aggressiveness, intolerance and refusal to assimilate.

thanks lestat for educating many here on islam and it's rabid followers.

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The Muslims in Australia aren't hurting you jfk? Don't speak about them that way.  It's only the extreme right whingers who have a problem with them. As was explained in another thread - the west didn't have a problem with Muslims either until a couple of decades ago - they were great buddies with them remember - until we began breaking international agreements. If you find the behaviour of Muslims in the ME abhorrent, perhaps it's because they've been lied to and betrayed by the UK & the US consistently over a number of decades.  They were once considered very honourable and far ahead of us in their culture and progress.  If they're angry now - who can blame them and we know which group of nations exacerbated their fury in the last decade.

So, Mantra, the Australian girls who were raped by the muslim gang wern't hurt and when they testified in court against the islamic scam they did it because they were right wingers?

Did you teach your child when raped just to close here eyes and think about mohamed the paedophile?

Shame on you Mantra

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So, Mantra, the Australian girls who were raped by the muslim gang wern't hurt and when they testified in court against the islamic scam they did it because they were right wingers? Did you teach your child when raped just to close here eyes and think about mohamed the paedophile? Shame on you Mantra

Are you serious Tallow?  Where did I write that I condoned rape?  Yes those boys were very bad and they've been locked away for decades, but there have been plenty of rapes and murders committed by Aussie atheist males also.  Have you forgotten Anita Cobby and Janine Baldwin already amongst hundreds of others?

All I'm trying to say is that you are judging a whole group of people by a few bad apples and we have plenty of rottenness in our society coming from all cultures, ethnicities and religions.

mantra wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 8:47pm:

Quote: So, Mantra, the Australian girls who were raped by the muslim gang wern't hurt and when they testified in court against the islamic scam they did it because they were right wingers? Did you teach your child when raped just to close here eyes and think about mohamed the paedophile? Shame on you Mantra Are you serious Tallow?  Where did I write that I condoned rape?  Yes those boys were very bad and they've been locked away for decades, but there have been plenty of rapes and murders committed by Aussie atheist males also.  Have you forgotten Anita Cobby and Janine Baldwin already amongst hundreds of others? All I'm trying to say is that you are judging a whole group of people by a few bad apples and we have plenty of rottenness in our society coming from all cultures, ethnicities and religions.

I am as serious as you are.
Horrible rape of Anita  was not motivated by a religion and none of religious leaders tried to condone it like it was in the case of islamic rape.

As yo can see I am not judging a whole group of people by a few bad apples but by the culture of islam where they are encouraged to rape own members of the family.

I suggest you convert mantra...  either in your ignorance you'll find bliss or you'll come running as fast as you can back to the real world a fully fledged apostate.

I'm an atheist Grendel, with Christian leanings.  Islam doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, but I can see why the radicals behave the way they do at times.


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Horrible rape of Anita  was not motivated by a religion and none of religious leaders tried to condone it like it was in the case of islamic rape.

Whatever Tallow.  Did you ever wonder why Anita was raped?  Perhaps it was because a bunch of homeless feral little boys were rejected by our "Christian" society. Of course that's no excuse - but by the very existence of these dysfunctional retarded & dangerous kids, it shows how bereft our society is at times.

No matter how much you whinge about Muslims - they are here to stay.  Most of them are moderates.  There is only a small proportion that you have to be concerned about Tallow and I'm sure they don't know where you live.

mantra wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 9:05pm:

I'm an atheist Grendel, with Christian leanings.  Islam doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, but I can see why the radicals behave the way they do at times. Quote: Horrible rape of Anita  was not motivated by a religion and none of religious leaders tried to condone it like it was in the case of islamic rape. Whatever Tallow.  Did you ever wonder why Anita was raped?  Perhaps it was because a bunch of homeless feral little boys were rejected by our "Christian" society. Of course that's no excuse - but by the very existence of these dysfunctional retarded & dangerous kids, it shows how bereft our society is at times. No matter how much you whinge about Muslims - they are here to stay.  Most of them are moderates.  There is only a small proportion that you have to be concerned about Tallow and I'm sure they don't know where you live.

They were not " homeless feral little boys were rejected by our "Christian" society", stop inventing "facts".

The "most" of them on this forum are not moderates at all so stop making excuses for rapists apologists.

Mantra, do they know where you live? May be it explains why you are so scared to write the truth?

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Might be why no one takes you seriously anymore. How does it feel being considered a joke on your own forum. Thats gotta hurt.

I don't see why. If you and 100, no, say 1 million muslims got together and passed a fatwa that I was a 'joke', whether on my own forum or in my kitchen - I might just look up from my morning coffee for a nanosecond while I then went back to reading the sports pages.

That's how much it would 'hurt'.

No matter how much you whinge about Muslims - they are here to stay.  Most of them are moderates.  There is only a small proportion that you have to be concerned about Tallow and I'm sure they don't know where you live.

The moderates also cause concern. Abu claims that his interpretation represents the vast majority of Muslims, and that there are more Muslims who are more extreme than him (eg wahabis, Taliban) than more progressive. That is why so many Australian clerics get in trouble with the media. You wouldn't get lunatics like that in charge of Mosques unless they had the support of the broader Muslim community.

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No matter how much you whinge about Muslims - they are here to stay.  Most of them are moderates.  There is only a small proportion that you have to be concerned about Tallow and I'm sure they don't know where you live

Exactly how you do you define - 'moderate' in Islam. There might be moderate people in Islam, who dont care enough to do anything about the imperatives of the faith - for now. The majority of muslims are engaged in the stealth jihad, white anting our heritage, traditions, values and institutions so they can be like sick old men and more easily destroyed. Such muslims see straight out terror as counter productive, but would prefer the whole slowly slowly termite destruction thing happen instead. The aim is the same, just the means are different.

But its a bit like when a sports team is losing. It has less fans.

If it starts winning, it has more fans. You will find that the 'moderates' pass around the ammunition to their fanatical brothers once the bullets start flying.

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 8:47am:

No matter how much you whinge about Muslims - they are here to stay.  Most of them are moderates.  There is only a small proportion that you have to be concerned about Tallow and I'm sure they don't know where you live. The moderates also cause concern. Abu claims that his interpretation represents the vast majority of Muslims, and that there are more Muslims who are more extreme than him (eg wahabis, Taliban) than more progressive. That is why so many Australian clerics get in trouble with the media. You wouldn't get lunatics like that in charge of Mosques unless they had the support of the broader Muslim community.

There is no muslims where I live  so I make my judgment about their ideology from ravings of abu and lestsat. I'm also sure that if them and mad muslim clerics keep carrying on with their circus behaviour majority of westerners will make sure that muslims will not stay in the West for too long unless they modernise and moderate the islamic ideology.

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No matter how much you whinge about Muslims - they are here to stay.

'here to stay' is strong terminology. You get a few more terrorist examples, or, better still an own goal terror plot here, and you see what happens.

Australians are not brits, we are not americans. When muslim thugs bashed up some lifesavers, you saw days of riots.

What do you think they will do, if one of these Religion of Peacers blows up a subway station, or a sports stadium?

Do you think that the language of Multicultism and the celebration of 'diversity' will stop the people?

I doubt it. And you know what else - there will be a successful terror plot against Australians here perpetrated by Muslims. Its just a matter of time.

And then it will be on, like Donkey Kong.

You hold far too much delight in the prospect of conflict Calanen, which displays a desire for violence that you would condemn vehemently, were it to emanate from an Islamic source, and that is called hypocrisy.

Islam is a problem, but muslims are essentially just people like you and me, and would no more want to enmesh their kids in a bloody future than we would, unless driven to believe they had no other choice.

Many Palestinians behave that way, as if violence is their only choice, and now you are proclaiming that you believe the same is inevitable here, and I, and the majority of aussies, reject your assessment, we prefer to work things out peacefully.

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Islam is a problem, but muslims are essentially just people like you and me, and would no more want to enmesh their kids in a bloody future than we would, unless driven to believe they had no other choice.

Are they?

You are forgetting a few facts here Mozz.  Just to back up your argument against a personality.

Pakistan, Indonesia...  have madrasses where children are taught what?
What about the indoctrination we have recently discussed re the palestinians and hamas?

You are using the mantra argument...  we are driving them to it?
Are your driving them to it?

mozzaok wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 11:39pm:

You hold far too much delight in the prospect of conflict Calanen, which displays a desire for violence that you would condemn vehemently, were it to emanate from an Islamic source, and that is called hypocrisy. Islam is a problem, but muslims are essentially just people like you and me, and would no more want to enmesh their kids in a bloody future than we would, unless driven to believe they had no other choice.

Oh God, can you please close your book of fairy tales Goldilocks and eat your porridge? Jesus H. The biggest and best thing that a muslim can do is die in a holy war. 72 virgins and all that. And its not them who wants them to die, its Allah, who needs to have his repressed totalitarian religious regime spread around the globe with violence. Are you with me yet Cochise?


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Many Palestinians behave that way, as if violence is their only choice, and now you are proclaiming that you believe the same is inevitable here, and I, and the majority of aussies, reject your assessment, we prefer to work things out peacefully.

Good luck with that sporto. It's not Palestinians that are the problem. It's Islam that is the problem. I am sure you will be able to persuade all muslims that they need to reform the entirety of their religion and give away any desire to take over the government and make you their slave or kill you, and throw 1000 years of history away - just because you want to play nice. They will have so much respect for you.

As to violence, that cannot be avoided. But I am not saying, that this is the first resort. Oh no sir. The first resort is to end Islamic immigration. All of it. We can deal with the numbers that are here. But bring any more, and you just increase the capacity for bloodshed.

There has never been a place in the history of Islam, where there have been sufficient numbers to declare war and start a jihad against their neighbours or governments other than sharia. Never. There is only waiting to build up forces sufficiently for jihad, jihad, and sharia. But I'm sure, that by you being 'Nice' Australia will be the first place ever. Go to it Tiger.

Grendel, you know that I do not disagree that what Islam teaches it's kids is totally unacceptable, and we do not disagree that because of this brainwashing, muslims are more likely to actively support violent jihad, if ever called upon to do so.

As far as "driving" them to it, perhaps a better description would be that we are providing the extremists with justifications, which would seem credible to most muslims, to support them in their anti-western stance, which may even include violent jihad.

Yes I agree with you, and others, on those points, but still hold out hope, that the basic human decency of all humanity, exists in muslims too, and this shared humanity may be enough for them, to recoil from any push to use violence to achieve their goals.

At the end of the day, we still share many core values with muslims, and a little more focus on what we have in common, rather than what separates us, may help engender better understanding, and a reduction in the friction between cultures.

Now Calanen, I appreciate that no one likes to be called a hypocrite, and you naturally get defensive, but should you care to reappraise what you posted, I expect you may recognise how others could certainly feel justified in classifying your apparent zeal for violent conflict with muslims, as seemingly hypocritical, when you would not hesitate to condemn any muslim who openly called for violent action.

I appreciate that it was most likely just over exuberant hyperbole, but you should acknowledge that fact, not follow the Islamist route of justifying why violence is an appropriate response.

"Many Palestinians behave that way, as if violence is their only choice"

That's wrong.
They have another choice of recognising Israel's right to exist and live their lives in peace but their demented leaders prefer violence and they claim the right to violence by authority of their religion.

Absolutely right Tallo, they do 'choose' violence, and that is why I do not support them.

If they chose to negotiate peacefully, I would be far more sympathetic to their cause.

When I said they behave as if violence is their only choice, I was not saying they were correct in that assessment, it is like you said, what their leaders convince them to believe.