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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Extremism Exposed >> Hamas claims great victory http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1232318351 Message started by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 8:39am

Title: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 8:39am

As Hamas congratulated Palestinians on their "victory" from mosque loudspeakers on Sunday, shell-shocked residents surveyed the debris of the deadliest offensive ever launched by Israel on Gaza.

"We congratulate all the Palestinian people after the victory in the fight with the enemy," bellowed a voice from a Hamas mosque in central Gaza City.

Yahia Karin, a 54-year-old resident of city's southern neighbourhood of Zeitun, found little to cheer about -- his home was reduced to rubble during the 22-day Israeli offensive which killed at least 1,300 Palestinians.

"I came to see my home, but as you can see, there is no home here anymore," Karin said, pointing to the charred ruins of his residence.

Some of the heaviest clashes between Israeli troops and Hamas fighters occurred in his neighbourhood -- and the scars of war are everywhere to be seen.

;D ;D ;D
If this is victory, then I'd hate to see their definition of defeat.
And surprise surprise, the "victory" anouncement came from a central mosque.
When will people wake up to these lowlife barbarians?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 9:25am

Well it was expected.
Even if there was only one Hamas terrorist left and no Palestinians they'd still call it a victory.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 10:21am

Grendel wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 9:25am:

Well it was expected.
Even if there was only one Hamas terrorist left and no Palestinians they'd still call it a victory.

Grendel,

Exactly correct.

And the next time abu, or one of his brothers on this forum, insists on how good it was, in the distant past, for Jews and Christians to live under ISLAM's 'protection' [quoting ISLAMIC historical sources] just remember today again!!!, and how the aftermath of this conflict in Gaza will be recorded by muslims.

How muslims are already recording their history, how Hamas in 2009, won a great victory over the Zionists.

ISLAM so hates TRUTH.

The ISLAMISTS prolly can't wait for the day when they take over the world, and they can finally record the 'truth' of the history of 'Palestine'.

ISLAM's history would proudly declare how the muslim armies whooped the Jews arssxs back in 1948!!

The coming victory of ISLAM.

Dream about it abu.

LOL

Coz that is all it is.

Vanity & pride.iProverbs 22:8
He that soweth iniquity shall reap vanity: and the rod of his anger shall fail.

Islam is a lie and truth is killing it.
Posted by: Alaskan
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023681.php#c602782

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 11:12am

Well, over 1000 were "martyred, how much of a victory do you all want !!!!!!!!!

that's what happens when islamics get control.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 12:04pm

Obviously Israel has been flip flopping almost daily in regards to its stated aims with this offensive, however, the fact is not one of these aims have been achieved.

The war did not stop rocket firing, did not end Hamas rule in Gaza and did not even succeed to free captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Hamas has been strengthened, and Abass and his impotent PA has lost credibility amongst Palestinians, and has in fact been weakened by this affair.

So why don't you tell us once again, besides killing hundreds of civilians, including children (which I understand for some you, is something that the Israeli's can be proud of), what exactly has Israel achieved?

Hamas on the other hand has quite clearly won the propaganda war, and the world has seen Israel for the murderous zionist pigs they are.

The fact that Hamas was able to resist the 4th most powerful military in the world, ensuring that Israel did not achieve its stragic goals, is in itself a victory for Hamas.

Then again, I don't expect dimwits like you to understand, who see war like some sort of footy match, where the victors are the ones who killed more people.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:16pm

Lestat, you may wish more victories like that to hamas, it is fine by me. How many victories exactly? Take number of palestinians who support hamas murderers, divide it by number of palestinians sacrificed for hamas vanity and you will get number of such victories that hamas need.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:21pm

lestat - hamas rule over rubble and a broken people.
Israel will attack again if rockets come over.
Israel drove in as far as they wanted and quashed hamas.

The response from every other country in the world was muted.
Noones interested in those who vote in terrorists.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:23pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:16pm:

Well done Tallo...you failed to address any of the issues I raised, and once again provided nothing, in addition to announcing to the world what we already has suspected.

However, on the slight miracle that you may actually contribute something meaningful for once, I'll ask again.

What exactly has Israel achieved?

On a side note, have you discovered the meaning of the word 'unilateral' yet? :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:24pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:21pm:

I'll ask again, which of Israels stated goals, have they achieved?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:32pm

hamas victory ??? What did they win ?

Quote:

....which more than 1300 Palestinians were killed. Ten Israeli soldiers and three civilians also died.

In Gaza, families began emerging from their places of hiding, including U.N. school compounds where some 45,000 people sought refuge during the fighting, and returning to their homes - some only to find them damaged or destroyed.

According to the Palestinian Statistics Bureau, 4000 residential buildings were reduced to rubble during the conflict. Western diplomats have said it could cost at least $1.6 billion to repair the infrastructure damage in Gaza. .........

........As scores of bodies of Hamas fighters were recovered from suddenly quiet urban battlefields on Sunday, Gaza medical officials said about 700 of the 1300 dead were civilians.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24930381-5003402,00.html

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:38pm

If this has ended for the time being, then I suppose it will be expected that the infidels go in there and repair the damage or provide the funds to do so.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:38pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:32pm:

hamas victory ??? What did they win ?

Quote:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24930381-5003402,00.html

I'll ask you a third time Sprint...which of Israel's stated goals did they achieve.

The fact that you have refused to answer this tells me, that you can't or don't want to answer. Therefore, unless you can come up with just one stated Israeli goal which they in fact did achieve, I will assume that you agree with me and that Israel did not actually achieve what they set out to do.

And given this fact, therefore the logical conclusion that any logical person can come to (yes I know, that rules out quite a few of you).

You ask what did Hamas win? It was their resistance denied Israel what they had set out to do...hence Israel did not achieve its goals when it started this operation.

This is what Hamas won.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:41pm

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:38pm:

If this has ended for the time being, then I suppose it will be expected that the infidels go in there and repair the damage or provide the funds to do so.

Do you realise that there are Palestinian Christians...or has your bigotry blinded you to this fact?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:46pm

Oh praise be to Allah. He bringeth death, suffering, misery and rubble.....lots and lots of rubble.

Hamas are a laughing stock as far as I'm concerned.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:47pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:23pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:16pm:

Well done Tallo...you failed to address any of the issues I raised, and once again provided nothing, in addition to announcing to the world what we already has suspected.

However, on the slight miracle that you may actually contribute something meaningful for once, I'll ask again.
What exactly has Israel achieved?
On a side note, have you discovered the meaning of the word 'unilateral' yet? :D

I have addressed the main issue the self defeating vanity of islamists.

As for Israel ... they achieved what they needed to achieve.: rocket attacks stopped, hamas leadership was exposed as child killers and punished accordingly by blowing them in bunkers where they hide, resupply of hamas with weapons get severely hampered by destruction of smuggling tunnels.

More then that ordinary palestinians started ask questions about sanity of their murderous hamas masters.

Quote:

But some Palestinians had hard questions for their elected leaders, whose decision to abandon a six-month truce and step up rocket fire on Israel gave the Israelis a pretext to unleash a withering onslaught that killed 1,300 people and wounded 5,300

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:55pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:47pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:23pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:16pm:

Well done Tallo...you failed to address any of the issues I raised, and once again provided nothing, in addition to announcing to the world what we already has suspected.

However, on the slight miracle that you may actually contribute something meaningful for once, I'll ask again.
What exactly has Israel achieved?
On a side note, have you discovered the meaning of the word 'unilateral' yet? :D

BWAHAHAHA...Once again, thanks for sharing with us what a dumb ass you are.

I thought your last post was stupid (attacking Hamas for breaking a 'unilateral' Israeli ceasefire...yes, this was gold).....but amazingly, you've even outdone your own lofty heights of stupidity. :)

The rockets never stopped, even yesterday they're being fired. So hence, your first lie exposed.

Secondly you say that ordinary Palestinians started asking questions, yet once again, this is nothing but an outright lie. Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA.

And thirdly, once again, a quick look at the facts will show that it is in fact Israel that are murderers of children...over 300 children to be precise.

Another 8 y.o girl shot in the head today, no doubt a terrorist in your eyes. >:(

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:57pm

Lestat what were Israel's stated goals? I just thought they were going in to kick Hamas' arse, which they seem to have done. There was no victory. There was no successful resistance. The Israelis came and went as they pleased. Hopefully these claims of victory from Hamas will make the people realise just how deluded they are.

Quote:

Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA.

For example?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:01pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:55pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:47pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:23pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:16pm:

Well done Tallo...you failed to address any of the issues I raised, and once again provided nothing, in addition to announcing to the world what we already has suspected.

However, on the slight miracle that you may actually contribute something meaningful for once, I'll ask again.
What exactly has Israel achieved?
On a side note, have you discovered the meaning of the word 'unilateral' yet? :D

Lestat, dumb asses are muslims because they elevate their asses above their heads. You are an example of that. You are muslim, right? So you are dumb ass may be even dumber then average palestinian who started doubt sanity of hamas.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:06pm

Game, set and match.

Thank you for coming Tallowood, once again, rather easily exposed as the dim wit you are, and right on queue you react in the only way you know how.

You have no credibility.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:11pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:06pm:

Game, set and match.

Thank you for coming Tallowood, once again, rather easily exposed as the dim wit you are, and right on queue you react in the only way you know how.
You have no credibility.

Lestat, dim wits are muslims because they knock their heads on the floor while elevating their bums. That is why Allah got angry with them let Israelis kick their bums.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:11pm

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 2:57pm:

I've already listed what the 'apparent goals' were, however, as I already stated, Israel have been flip flopping around a fair bit, a part of their propaganda manouvering which was to be expected given an Israeli election was coming up.

however, of all those stated aims, not one was achieved. And now you say that 'they just wanted to kick Hamas's ass', really says alot about how simple you really are.

Would be comical if it wasn't funny.

Besides...they couldn't even do that. Hamas are still in tact, and politically anyway, are in a far more powerful position then they were before the war. It is the PA which is the big loser of this war.

you say that the IDF went and did what they wanted...yet the rockets continued, the tunnels were not destroyed, and the IDF were unable to destroy Hamas, or even loosen its grip on Gaza.

Once again, a look at the facts makes a mockery of your claims fd.

Quote:

Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA.

For example?[/quote]

CAIRO — Military and security experts believe that the high death toll and a trail of destruction left by 22 days of Israeli massive air, sea and land bombing have failed to guarantee Israel a victory.
"After 22 days of non-stop attacks, the Israeli military juggernaut failed to force Hamas and other resistance groups into surrender," Lebanese military expert Walid Sokaria told IslamOnline.net.

Israeli troops began on Sunday, January 18, a gradual withdrawal from the bombed-out Palestinian territory after a deadly 22-day offensive that killed more than 1300 people, nearly half of them civilians.

Announcing a unilateral ceasefire a day earlier, Israeli Premier Ehud Olmert claimed the onslaught has reached all its goals.

Israel has been inconsistent about the objectives of its deadliest offensive ever against Gaza, starting from ousting the Hamas-led government to ending rocket firings.

Security analysts, and even some Israeli parties, believe none of that has been achieved.

"The war did not stop rocket firing, did not end Hamas rule in Gaza and did not even succeed to free captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit," noted Sokaria.

"So what kind of victory can Israel claim?"

Israeli intelligence chief Yuval Diskin admitted Sunday that the war failed to wipe out the network of tunnels operated by Hamas, another key objective.

The right-wing opposition Likud party has also said that the war failed to achieve its goals.

No Winner

Some experts believe that by not losing to one of the world's most powerful armies, the Palestinians have actually won.

"Hamas won the war," contends Sokaria, the Lebanese military expert.

"The fact that the enemy has failed to achieve its set goals should be deemed a clear victory for the resistance," agrees Tal`at Musallam, an Egyptian military analyst.

Sokaria believes Hamas has also won the propaganda battle.

"The war has boosted Hamas popularity on the Palestinian, Arab and international arenas."

But Yassin Suwaid, another Lebanese military expert, disagrees.

"Israel is the winner, no doubt," he told IOL.

"It has achieved its goal of dealing a major blow to Hamas."

Suwaid denied that Israel had intended to topple Hamas rule in the coastal territory, which has been under siege since Hamas was voted into power in 2006.

"Ending Hamas' rule in Gaza would not have been in Israel's favor as it would have ended the West Bank-Gaza division."

He believes the only loser were the people of Gaza who lost their beloved ones and saw their homes brought to a pile of rubble.

Israel has destroyed 20,000 residential buildings, 1,500 commercial facilities, 51 government buildings, 18 education buildings, 20 mosques and 50 kilometers of roads.

According to preliminary estimates, rebuilding Gaza would need no less than $1 billion.

But Mohammed Abdel-Salam, an Egyptian military analyst, insists the scale of destruction is no basis to decide the winner.

"Israel has failed to end Hamas rule in Gaza, halt rocket firing and stop arms smuggling," he noted.

"Hamas has also not achieved any military victory," he added.

"So the best way to describe the result is that Hamas did not lose and Israel did not win."

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:12pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:06pm:

Game, set and match.

Thank you for coming Tallowood, once again, rather easily exposed as the dim wit you are, and right on queue you react in the only way you know how.
You have no credibility.

Lestat, dim wits are muslims because they knock their heads on the floor while elevating their bums. That is why Allah got angry with them let Israelis kick their bums.

hahahaha...good one. Thats very clever dumbo....quite could for a slow developer such as yourself. You should tell mummy, she'd be really proud of her 'simple' son.

Have you looked up 'unilateral' yet?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm

All Israeli aims were achieved though some not completely. Regretfully not all of hamas vermin was eradicated but let wait and see how long it will be before hamas will try for another victory of this sort. What is your prediction?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

Name just one that was acheived, as you put it. Just one.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:21pm

Quote:

however, of all those stated aims

What stated aims?

The article does not support your claim that it has weakened the PA, or that it has strengthed Hamas. Maybe they just didn't surrender because so many were dead that there was no organisation eft to surrender. Merely 'failing to secure Israel a victory' without bothering to explain what they mean by victory, says nothing at all about the strength of Hamas. If 'nearly all observers' make that claim, why is that the best you could do?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:21pm

Even after being bombed, some of them still know who to blame.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uoi0TGyx_uA

Like they say:
If the Arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no more war.
If Isreal put down their weapons, there'd be no more Israel.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:23pm

Only the totally deluded could claim any sort of victory in such a resounduing defeat.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:21pm:

If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Their..thats a little more accurate now. Sorry for interupting your zionist lies.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

Name just one that was acheived, as you put it. Just one.

I have already named them above. now it is your turn to answer my question:

When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:26pm

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:21pm:

Quote:

however, of all those stated aims

You asked for 'observers' stating that Israel did not achieve their stated goals. I provided a source, including an Israeli intelligence officer.

What stated aims? You tell me.

I'll ask you as well, name one stated aim israel has actually achieved from this war.

You couldn't possibly be stupid enough to be implying that Israel did not state any aims?

Could you...hmm, maybe...

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:26pm

from your posting lestat

Quote:

.......But Yassin Suwaid, another Lebanese military expert, disagrees.

"Israel is the winner, no doubt," he told IOL.

"It has achieved its goal of dealing a major blow to Hamas."........

"Israel has failed to end Hamas rule in Gaza, halt rocket firing and stop arms smuggling," he noted.

"Hamas has also not achieved any military victory," he added.

"So the best way to describe the result is that Hamas did not lose and Israel did not win."..................

.

he's right in that hamas achieved no ,military victory. That's the definition of losing.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:27pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

Name just one that was acheived, as you put it. Just one.

I have already named them above. now it is your turn to answer my question:

When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

You didn't answer my question, in fact, you admitted that Israel did not completely achieve any of their goals.

This would indicate a Hamas victory, as Israel, the 4th largest military in the world, were unable to do, what they set out to do.

Whats the question you asked?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:29pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:26pm:

from your posting lestat

Quote:

he's right in that hamas achieved no ,military victory. That's the definition of losing.

Not sure why I'm even bothering with you, cause you seem sort of simple, but here goes.

no one ever claimed that Hamas won a military victory....however, they did win a political victory.

Israel were denied their stated goals, and Hamas has been strengthened politically, especially in the west bank.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:29pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

....
If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Their..thats a little more accurate now. Sorry for interupting your zionist lies.

That is typical islamists lie. The fact is Palestinians in the West Bank have decided to have peace with Israel and there is talk about Palestinian State. Of course hamas will try to prevent it from happening but they are getting more and more marginalised.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:23pm:

Only the totally deluded could claim any sort of victory in such a resounduing defeat.

Only one deluded here is you, and the fact that you cannot even tell me one thing which Israel has achieved from this proves the case.

But hey...keep parroting the same zionist lies, it seems its all your pitiful mind is capable of.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:31pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:29pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

....
If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Their..thats a little more accurate now. Sorry for interupting your zionist lies.

Westbank have signed a peace deal with Israel have they.

And you reckon we are liars?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:32pm

Quote:

If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Their..thats a little more accurate now. Sorry for interupting your zionist lies.

Palestinians are Arabs.

"There", that's a little more accurate.

They've had plenty of chances to make a real Palestinian state (where one never existed) and they deny the opportunity every time because they won't accept the Jews being there.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:34pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:27pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

Name just one that was acheived, as you put it. Just one.

I have already named them above. now it is your turn to answer my question:
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

You didn't answer my question...

Yes I did but you are pretending to be blind now, don't see answers and don't see the question. That indicates that you know that the answer is not in favour of your murderous hamas chams. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:34pm

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:32pm:

Quote:

If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Their..thats a little more accurate now. Sorry for interupting your zionist lies.

yeah...arabs are Palestinians. thats very observent of you. And your point is?

Do you have a a clue or are you just parrotting the same zionist lies.

I suspect its the latter.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:35pm

Quote:

If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Crap Lestat. The Arabs might as well have no weapons. Israel can do as it pleases. I cannot comprehend how some people can think that the Palestinians are holding Israel back from Gaza through military strength. It's delusional. In fact, the quickest way for the Palestinians to get a real state of their own is to put down their weapons.

If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be a true, independent, functional Palestine.

Quote:

You asked for 'observers' stating that Israel did not achieve their stated goals.

No I didn't. Read my post Lestat. I asked you what the stated goals were. When I mentioned observers, I asked you to back up your claim that "Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA." Can you do that?

Quote:

What stated aims? You tell me.

You are the one who started harping on about the stated aims, not me. I wasn't aware that they had stated any. Are you saying there were no stated aims and you have been repeating a totally pointless question over and over?

BTW, when do you think hamas will try for another great victory of this sort?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:37pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:31pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:29pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

....
If the arabs put down their weapons, there'd be no Palestine.

Their..thats a little more accurate now. Sorry for interupting your zionist lies.

That is typical islamists lie. The fact is Palestinians in the West Bank have decided to have peace with Israel and there is talk about Palestinian State. Of course hamas will try to prevent it from happening but they are getting more and more marginalised.

Westbank have signed a peace deal with Israel have they.

And you reckon we are liars?

You trying hard to make the rest of muslims look like liers not me ;D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:40pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:34pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:27pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

Name just one that was acheived, as you put it. Just one.

I have already named them above. now it is your turn to answer my question:
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

You didn't answer my question...

Yes I did but you are pretending to be blind now, don't see answers and don't see the question. That indicates that you know that the answer is not in favour of your murderous hamas chams. :)

Your question doesn't make sense. Hamas didn't try anything remember. It was Israel that attacked Hamas.

Hamas had a ceasefire for 6 months, during that time Hamas upheld its end of the bargain, whereas Israel did not. These are the facts.

Even the UN Chief humanitarian co-ordinator (an Australian) has said as much.

Read and pay attention, you might even learn something.

--------------------

Militants agree to ceasefire as siege slammed
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
January 19, 2009
AS PALESTINIAN armed factions last night offered a ceasefire, Israel was accused of deliberately preventing the United Nations from building up food supplies in Gaza that feed a million people a day before the launch of its offensive in the besieged Gaza Strip.

In a scathing critique of Israeli actions leading up to the conflict, the UN's chief humanitarian co-ordinator in Israel, former Australian diplomat Maxwell Gaylard, also accused Israel of failing to honour its commitments to open its border with Gaza during several months of truce from June 19 last year.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/militants-agree-to-ceasefire-as-siege-slammed-20090118-7jxi.html?page=-1

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:40pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:23pm:

Only the totally deluded could claim any sort of victory in such a resounduing defeat.

Only one deluded here is you, and the fact that you cannot even tell me one thing which Israel has achieved from this proves the case.

But hey...keep parroting the same zionist lies, it seems its all your pitiful mind is capable of.

[I'd call this an achievement]

Hamas vows revenge after IDF kills Gaza Interior Minister Said Sayyam

By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents, and Agencies

Tags: Gaza, Israel News, Hamas

An Israel Air Force strike in Gaza on Thursday killed Hamas' Interior Minister Said Sayyam, one of the Islamist militant group's three most senior leaders in the coastal strip.

A Hamas official vowed vengeance for Siam's death. "The blood of Said Sayyam will be a curse on the Zionist entity," Mohammed Nazzal told Al-Jazeera television.

Sayyam, 50, was killed in an air strike that targeted the home of his brother Iyad. Also killed in the attack were his son, his brother, as well as Salah Abu Shreich, head of internal security in the organization and the person responsible for the liaison between the political and military wings of Hamas.

Palestinian sources said Hamas' military commander in Gaza City, Mahmoud Watfah, was also killed in the attack.

Six other Hamas operatives were wounded in the air strike in the heart of Gaza City, the sources said. The IDF Southern Command ordered the airstrike on the basis of precise intelligence provided by the Shin Bet security service.

Sayyam was the effective founder of the Hamas-led police force. He pushed for Hamas' bloody 2006 coup in Gaza, during which it ousted the rival Fatah faction from power.

As interior minister in Hamas' government in Gaza, Sayyam oversaw thousands of security agents and was widely feared. He was the number three behind Ismail Haniyeh and Mahmoud Zahar, and was seen by many as the most extreme of the triumvirate.

The air strike on Sayyam was apparently an attempt by Israel to deliver an image of victory in its offensive against Hamas. The Israel Defense Forces understands that Hamas' agreement in principle to the Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire in Gaza signals that the campaign is nearing its end.

In an interview with Haaretz in November 1995, Sayyam said, "I do not hate [Israelis] for being Jewish or Israeli but because of what they have done to us. Because of the acts of occupation."

In response to a question about whether he saw a chance for change in relations between Palestinians and Israelis, he said, "It is difficult to forget what was done to us. If the reason for the hate will not exist, everything is possible.

"But if the reason remains, it is impossible to love. First we must convince in general and in principle that we have been wronged, then we can talk about '67 or '48. You still do not recognize that we have rights. The first condition for change is recognition of the injustice we suffered."

Bradley Burston contributed to this report

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055899.html

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:43pm

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:35pm:

Quote:

You asked for 'observers' stating that Israel did not achieve their stated goals.

Post #16

I stated that....

"Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA. "

You responded with...
"For example? "

You see FD, this is a clear example of you continously moving the goal posts whenever you feel the need.

You asked a question, I provided an answer, and then you ask a question again, claiming that I never answered the first one.

Unfortunately for you this post here shows the liar you are and why no one takes you seriously anymore.

Your considered a joke on your own website, quite an acheivement I might add. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:45pm

Calanen wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:40pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:30pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:23pm:

Only the totally deluded could claim any sort of victory in such a resounduing defeat.

A moderate who will now most probably be replaced by an extremist.

oh, and perhaps if you can link me to the Israeli leader who stated that the aim of the war was to kill this person, then you may have a point.

I asked for stated goals remember. You have none...just as I thought.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:46pm

Quote:

Your considered a joke on your own website, quite an acheivement I might add.

I think you're a joke everywhere, not just on websites. Please tell us again to come down to Preston Mosque for a fight behind the bicycle sheds.

I'll stand watch to see whether the teacher is coming!

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:47pm

Calanen wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:

Quote:

Your considered a joke on your own website, quite an acheivement I might add.

Who said anything about a fight. i just want to see how brave you are...I promise I won't lay a single finger on you.

I suspect that you are nothing but a coward....everything I read from you confirms this suspicion.

But hey, you can always prove me wrong tough boy. Name the time and place...no violence...I promise...just a chat. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:48pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:40pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:34pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:27pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:24pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:17pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

Name just one that was acheived, as you put it. Just one.

I have already named them above. now it is your turn to answer my question:
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

You didn't answer my question...

Yes I did but you are pretending to be blind now, don't see answers and don't see the question. That indicates that you know that the answer is not in favour of your murderous hamas chams. :)

Quote:

But some Palestinians had hard questions for their elected leaders, whose decision to abandon a six-month truce and step up rocket fire on Israel gave the Israelis a pretext to unleash a withering onslaught that killed 1,300 people and wounded 5,300

Ordinary Palestinians obviously don't believe you. :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:48pm

Quote:

Please tell us again to come down to Preston Mosque for a fight behind the bicycle sheds.

You'd better bring the Bra Boys with you.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:48pm

Yes you provided an answer, but you missed the first goal post. There was no need to move it. The 'evidence' you provided did not in any way support your claim that "Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA." You couldn't even come up with a single observer that supported that claim. I have no idea why you even thought that article was relevant.

Aksing for an example when you begin with 'nearly all observers' is not shifting the goal posts.

Hamas are deluded in claiming any kind of victory. Muslims only paint themselves as deluded by trying to deny this.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:51pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:47pm:

Calanen wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:46pm:

Quote:

Your considered a joke on your own website, quite an acheivement I might add.

Why anybody in his sound mind would want to go look at islamic bums risen towards heaven? ::)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:51pm

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:48pm:

I at least provided something...what have you provided, nothing as usual but speculation and thinly veiled bigotry.

As I said, most observers (especially neautrals) have stated that Israel have not achieved its goals...I at least provided an example of some.

There have been plenty of reports stating that the PA were the big losers in this...are you denying this.

Do I have to do all your thinking for you?

Once again...you provided nothing.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:52pm

Amadd wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:48pm:

Quote:

Please tell us again to come down to Preston Mosque for a fight behind the bicycle sheds.

You'd better bring the Bra Boys with you.

As much as they might like a rumble, I don't think Jai Abberton himself could get them to go to Melbourne!

And as much as I would like to have my image and personal details splashed on Religion of Peace websites to become the victim of a Salman Rushdie style Fatwa, I think that at this juncture in my life - it's not going to advance me any.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:54pm

When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

The question stands unanswered, which is the true indication of hamas victory claim.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:58pm

Quote:

Nizar Rayan, one of the top Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip was killed in an Israeli airstrike on Thursday afternoon, the Palestinian Hamas movement said in a statement sent to reporters.

Another victory.

Also, the Interior Minister Sayyam that was killed was famous for his unspeakable torture of Al Fatah members. Some moderate.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6565812.html

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:59pm

Quote:

There have been plenty of reports stating that the PA were the big losers in this...are you denying this.

Lestat I am simply asking you to back up your original claim. Here, I'll post it yet again for you:

Quote:

Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 5:25pm

freediver wrote on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 3:59pm:

Quote:

There have been plenty of reports stating that the PA were the big losers in this...are you denying this.

Lestat I am simply asking you to back up your original claim. Here, I'll post it yet again for you:

[quote]Nearly all observers agree that this war has strengthened Hamas, and weakend the PA.

You made the claim, you back it up. That's how it works Lestat. The fact that you tried to back it up with an article that missed your point entirely, then demanded other people disprove you isntead, gives me doubts about your ability to honestly gauge what 'most observeres' are actually saying.

Do you also see this as a 'great victory' for Hamas?[/quote]

Apparently we are all going to settle it behind the bicycle sheds Freedriver.

Tucker's keeping a look out for Mr Smithers who is on playground duty.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 19^th, 2009 at 6:38pm

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am

lol@ you losers.

Four pages on and not one person can name just one stated Israel goal, which was acheived by this attack on Gaza.

Not one.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:28am

1/ Thrash hamas.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:42am

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am:

lol@ you losers.

Four pages on and not one person can name just one stated Israel goal, which was acheived by this attack on Gaza.

Not one.

Unusually, the IDF Commander has not called to tell me what his military objectives are in this latest operation. I promise that as soon as he does, I will post them all here.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:55am

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:42am:

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am:

lol@ you losers.

Four pages on and not one person can name just one stated Israel goal, which was acheived by this attack on Gaza.

Not one.

Unusually, the IDF Commander has not called to tell me what his military objectives are in this latest operation. I promise that as soon as he does, I will post them all here.

Olmert, Livi and numerous IDF spokesman stated numerous times the different goals and aims which they were hoping to achieve during this operation.

Yet they achieved none.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:58am

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am:

lol@ you losers.

Four pages on and not one person can name just one stated Israel goal, which was acheived by this attack on Gaza.

Not one.

You are the one that brought it up Lestat. You are the one who is unable to name one.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:14am

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:58am:

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:24am:

lol@ you losers.

Four pages on and not one person can name just one stated Israel goal, which was acheived by this attack on Gaza.

Not one.

You are the one that brought it up Lestat. You are the one who is unable to name one.

Are you serious? Are you really this dumb fd or are you pretending. Can't you read?

I've listed a number of the stated goals. One which was repeatedly numerous times was to stop the rocket attacks from Gaza.

Another was to weaken Hamas politically in Gaza.

Livi also mentioned numerous times that they wanted to 'change the situation in Gaza'....which would imply the removal of Hamas and re-establishment of the PA in Gaza.

Seriously...stop acting so dumb, and name one achieved goal by the Israeli's during this operation.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:29am

I see, you meant the goals that you stated.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:42am

fd, those were all goals stated by Israel in many different press releases, stop acting so ignorant on the matter now.

Anyway I can help you out if you like, they achieved one of the stated goals of Zionism which is to reduce the Arab population, and increase the Jewish population of Palestine.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:44am

You'll have to forgive me for not blindly accepting Les's claims about their stated goals. Everyone knows the drill by now. I'd be surprised if they even bothered stating them.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:47am

fd, since you've repeated so many of their other propaganda lines word for word throughout the duration of the conflict, one would assume you also took the time to listen to their stated goals as well? which were usually woven into the exact same press releases.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:02am

Quote:

since you've repeated so many of their other propaganda lines word for word throughout the duration of the conflict

Can you give an example? Are you talking about when I copy and paste newspaper articles?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:07am

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:02am:

Quote:

since you've repeated so many of their other propaganda lines word for word throughout the duration of the conflict

Can you give an example? Are you talking about when I copy and paste newspaper articles?

Thats ok Freediver, we understand. You cannot answer, hence your playing dumb, and answering a question with a question.

Are you honestly saying that you have never heard or read any stated goals by any Israeli minister, spokesman, or anyone connected to the IDF govt or military?

Be honest.

A tactic of yours which we have become use to. It is telling that after 4 pages you are still unable to name one goal acheived by Israel. Not one.

There are plenty examples of Israeli leaders stating their goals...yet you cannot name one which was actually achieved, and are playing games to cover this up.

And you still insist that Hamas were the losers.

Thats ok..we get it....if anyone needed more evidence of why you are considered a joke and no one takes you seriously....they need look no further.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:10am

Are you honestly saying that you have never heard or read any stated goals by any Israeli minister, spokesman, or anyone connected to the govt or military?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:17am

Quote:

It is telling that after 4 pages you are still unable to name one goal acheived by Israel.

Yet you are still unable to name one goal stated by Israel. Perhaps we should start there eh?

Quote:

There are plenty examples of Israeli leaders stating their goals...yet you cannot name one

Neither can you, apparently.

Quote:

And you still insist that Hamas were the losers.

They got their arses kicked. You have to shift the goal posts an absurdly long way before you can claim victory for Hamas. You rpetty much have to change the definition of victory to getting your arse kicked. That doesn't seem to be a problem for them.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:35am

hamas killed - 300 - 400
jews killed - 12

I declare israel the winner.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:07am:

And you still insist that Hamas were the losers.

Do you consider them winners in the way many Arabs considered Nassar to be a winner even after his hilarious and darkly comedic loss in the 6 days war?

Hamas do not have welfare of the Palestinian people and nation at heart, they simply crave war all the time. Eternal violent Jihad. They will cease on Palestinian land only when there is none left to fight on. But then they'll have won in their minds - They will have an entire displaced people to abuse as murderer/suicide cases in the cause of Islamism.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am

I have stated Israeli goals twice, first time in another thread about week ago and can repeat them again third time now:
Two main demands Israeli put forward as condition of ceasefire were:
1 hamas stops rocket shelling of Israel
2 hamas does not rearm
Both conditions were reached

Now I ask again the question that muslims are reluctant to answer:
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?
This question is in bold and large font so nobody can miss it ;)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:51am

In a bizarre way hamas are winners because they reached their goal of having over 1000 palestinians dead though I personally consider it a lost for palestinian people.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:53am

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

Tallow, a great victory over Israel such as this one requires months, even years of careful planning. They need to lull Israel into a false sense of security so that they again send the Israeli army to it's doom at the hands of Hamas. Plus, it would be unfair for them to attack Israel again while they have been crippled. They need to give Israel time to lick it's wounds and recover. Hamas does not march to anyone else's tune. They will again be victorious over Israel at the time that suits them. God willing.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 4:00pm

hahahah, figure this for a classic bit of islamic mentally ill statement.

Quote:

HAMAS'S armed wing said today it lost only 48 fighters during Israel's 22-day operation in Gaza and vowed to fight on unless the Jewish state withdrew its forces from the Palestinian enclave.

"We announce to our people the martyrdom of 48 Qassam fighters,'' Abu Obeida, spokesman for the Ezzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, said in a televised press conference.

Israel reported killing more than 500 Hamas members during Operation Cast Lead which it launched on Gaza on December 27 and ended on Sunday with a ceasefire.

Gaza medics said a total of more than 1300 Palestinians have died.

Abu Obeida also claimed that Israel lost "at least 80 soldiers'' in the fighting. The Jewish state listed 10 soldiers killed.

The spokesman repeated the "victory'' cry declared by Hamas leaders on Sunday as the guns fell silent and underlined that Hamas' own ceasefire would only last a week unless Israel fully withdrew troops from Gaza.
"We have given the Zionist enemy one week to pull out of the Gaza Strip, failing which we will pursue the resistance.'' .....

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24935219-5003402,00.html

What is the point, they want to be matryered. So be it.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 4:11pm

Why can't they do it themselves without involving IDF and civilian Palestinians? Bloody attention whores :(

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 4:21pm

;D ;D ;D

Generous of them to give the Israelis a whole week to retreat....

If I was charged with defending my people, I wouldn't be boasting about how good we were at hiding under the bed while enemy soldiers were wreaking havoc tring to find us.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 4:30pm

;D
Praise be to Allah - the God of lies.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 6:33pm

Yet this is the mentality we have to deal with.

::) ::) ::)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:28pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

Do you consider them winners in the way many Arabs considered Nassar to be a winner even after his hilarious and darkly comedic loss in the 6 days war?

I am arab (and Egyptian) and I have spoken (even argued) to hundreds of arabs, especially about Naser (i'm no fan of his)...yet I have never heard any consider Nasser to be a winner.

Yes he is admired for nationalizing the Suez Canel..but no one, ever claims he 'won' the 6 day war, or described him as a winner.

Do you have anything to back up this claim...or are you just lieing for the sake of the argument.

Oh..and I'll ask you aswell...can you name one stated aim which the Israeli's actually achieved from this operation? One military or political objective which the Israeli stated they wanted to achieve, and actually achieved from this. Just one.

Its amazing...you are all so adamant that Israel won this war, and won comfortably (like I said...seems people can't look past the death tallies, like its some sort of morbid scoreboard..sorry dimwits, it doesn't work that way)..yet 6 pages on, not one of you have been able to find just one of Israel's stated goals (their were numerous reports in the media, where Israeli leaders were stating what they wanted to achieve...I'm sure you read them) which has been achieved by Israel. Not one.

I bet you also at the time believed that Israel defeated Hezbollah last year....yet one year on it is now accepted that Israel in fact lost. Even the Israeli's over whelmingly believed that they lost the Lebennon war, as numerous surveys found, and Olmerts popularity plummetted after the debacle.

Yes...even in Lebennon they killed far more people then Hezbollah did (I'll give you that, the IDF are good at killing), yet anyone with even a basic understanding of war can now see that Israel did not achieve its military aims in Lebennon. It was hurt both politically and diplomatically...and the air of supremecy of its military was lost when a poorly armed guerilla group held of the 4th most powerful military in the world.

THis Gaza crisis is very similar, despite all the damage, all the deaths, fact is that Israel has achieved very little from this operation..this fact in itself is a victory for Hamas.

And to be honest...it does not suprise me one bit that you people cannot see this. Its what I have come to expect. A simple outlook for simple people (sorry Helian...though this post is aimed at you...I don't actually lump you with the other losers....I respect your posts a little more...not a lot mind you, but a little. ;)).

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

Hamas do not have welfare of the Palestinian people and nation at heart, they simply crave war all the time. Eternal violent Jihad. They will cease on Palestinian land only when there is none left to fight on. But then they'll have won in their minds - They will have an entire displaced people to abuse as murderer/suicide cases in the cause of Islamism.

This is once again a complete load of nonsense and a quick look at the facts and your claims can quite easily be discredited.

Fact is Hamas was voted in by the Palestinians....on the back of its humanitarian work. Whilst the corrupt PA were banking millions of dollars, it was Hamas which set up social networks, charities, and in general looked after the general populace. If Hamas were such monsters as you claim...then why would the Palestinians vote for them. Like really...be honest...you must think very lowly of the Palestinians if you truly believe Hamas is as you have described.

You have absolutely no evidence to support your claim...Hamas has the popular support in Gaza from the average people...and are far more popular in Gaza then the PA. And here you are..claiming that "do not have welfare of the Palestinian people and nation at heart". What garbage.

What you seem to fail to comprehend, is that Hamas are Palestinians. Brothers, sisters, mothers, sons of Hamas members are the very same people that you are basically saying they dont care about.

Do you seriously believe this garbage...Have you even ever spoken to a Palestinian. Do you know any.

Really...instead of parroting the same old propaganda and zionist lies...how bout you actually think about what you are saying...and ask yourself this, how does such an organisation...who, if as you claim "Hamas do not have welfare of the Palestinian people and nation at heart, they simply crave war all the time"...how does this organisation get voted in free and fair elections.

What are you saying...that you no the situation better then the Palestinians themselves. Is that what you believe....if you do...its quite arrogant to do so.

Palestinians voted Hamas for a reason...I suggest you start doing some reading and finding out why...before sprouting the same old tired zionist propaganda.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:48pm

Israel fails to win in Gaza
Aaron Klein says Jewish state didn't achieve its objectives

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: January 19, 2009
6:29 pm Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

JERUSALEM – Wars are won or lost based on which side achieves its goals. In the case of Israel's three-week offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, the Jewish state made many impressive gains but largely failed to achieve its major objectives.

At the beginning of the conflict, [B]Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced two main goals for waging war on Hamas – to decisively smash the terrorist group's ability to attack Israel; and to stop Hamas' rocket attacks from Gaza aimed at nearby Jewish communities. Neither goal was met.

Olmert later announced a third goal – to change the situation on the ground so that Hamas will not be able to continue smuggling weapons into Gaza from neighboring Egypt. This goal is on the road to failure.

With regard to denting Hamas' capabilities, during the past 23 days, Israeli air strikes targeted both symbolic Hamas institutions, such as government buildings, and the group's military infrastructure, including rocket caches, police stations, explosives factories, and about 200 of an estimated 600 smuggling tunnels between Gaza and neighboring Egypt. Although the IDF will not confirm the percentage of Hamas' military infrastructure wiped out, defense sources said Hamas lost about 30 percent of its rockets and a sizable portion of its explosives development program.

But the sources said Hamas' estimated 6,000-man force trained in Hezbollah-like guerrilla tactics is still largely in place along with the majority of the group's underground bunkers. In addition, 60 percent of its rocket arsenal and most of its weapons caches are well-stored. Crucially, many components of Hamas' military wing are stored underground and remain safely tucked away.

The IDF only launched two portions of a planned, three-stage assault on Gaza. The first stage was Israel's continuing aerial bombardment of Hamas targets, which the terror group admits dented its government infrastructure and which Israeli sources said resulted in some damage to the group's military capabilities. The second stage began about two weeks ago, with some ground troops entering Gaza, taking up peripheral positions in central and northern Gaza and mounting some small offensives and special operations within Gaza City and select northern Gaza camps.

But defense sources say to deal a decisive blow to Hamas' ability to attack Israel, the IDF must embark on an extensive, large-scale ground operation that would clean out central and northern Gaza of Hamas' intact military wing. Now that a cease-fire has been announced, it seems Israel will not continue its offensive – meaning Hamas' military infrastructure is largely still intact.

Still, Israel destroyed so many Hamas buildings (the Israel Air Force almost ran out of targets), the group's ability to govern on the ground has been badly damaged, since it doesn't have many government compounds from which to rule. Hamas' government infrastructure, including office buildings, police headquarters, even financial institutions, was badly damaged. Hamas will find it difficult to immediately assume the kind of authority it boasted in Gaza starting in 2007, when Hamas seized control of the territory from the U.S.-backed Fatah party of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

Israel also scared into hiding some Hamas leaders with its eliminations of top Hamas members, including Siad Siam, the chief of Hamas' executive force, a Hezbollah-like guerrilla militia heavily involved in terrorism. But Hamas leaders are quite used to living under assassination threat. When the IDF fully withdraws, Hamas' military wing chiefs will come out from their shells. Some already have.

Olmert's stated goal of destroying Hamas' ability to rocket Israel fell short. This is obvious since Hamas fired an average of 33 rockets per day every day during the entire conflict, and reportedly shot at least 20 rockets and eight mortars since making its cease-fire declaration yesterday.

Hamas' rocket arsenal is depleted by about half, and many of its rocket factories were taken out by the IDF. Crucial to bleeding Hamas dry is for Israel to find a way to halt the rampant weapons smuggling from Egypt to Gaza. Indeed, this was one of Olmert's stated goals. But it will not be achieved.

Israel is negotiating an international monitoring mechanism it hopes will stop Hamas from smuggling weapons from neighboring Egypt into Gaza. But previous international monitors stationed along the Egypt-Gaza border fled their duty and repeatedly failed to stem Hamas' weapons smuggling. The monitors were stationed at the border following Israel's 2005 evacuation of the Gaza Strip.

Even if a beefed-up international force is established inside Gaza – and this is not the plan – it is not clear whether such a force would do its job. Currently, a 13,000-strong UNIFIL force in southern Lebanon has done little as the Iranian-backed Hezbollah militia has rearmed in the area, many times in full view of the international troops, according to Israeli defense officials.

(Continued)...

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:51pm

Meanwhile, Olmert today made some farcical claims, telling the Israeli media Hamas would find it difficult to continue smuggling weapons into Gaza and that the IDF controlled the northern Gaza Strip – the area from which most rockets are launched into the Jewish state. On the ground, the IDF does not control the entire northern Gaza, as clearly evidenced by Hamas' continued ability to fire rockets from that zone.

Hamas of course has declared "victory," which is overstating things. Hamas' "victory" was by default since its only goal was to survive the IDF beating. It achieved this not due to its might but because the IDF will not be launching the third stage of its attack, which would have devastated Hamas.

One real Hamas victory, though, is the international legitimacy the group received during the past few weeks. According to WND's Hamas sources, the group was in direct contact with Italy, France, the EU and U.N. representatives, many of whom, the sources said, expressed willingness to bring Hamas into the fold and out from isolation.

In the outcome of this war, a clear winner or loser cannot be determined. Both sides gained and lost. But if we are to judge based on which side achieved its objectives, Israel clearly did not win.

Hamas for now will probably scale back its rocket attacks against Israel, since it's in the group's best interests not to provoke any further IDF operations. But when the time is right and when its arsenal has been replenished, Hamas will resume its war to destroy the Jewish state.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=86570

This is an article written by a Jew, I suggest you dimwits read what he says, and pay attention to the bold bits.

I highly doubt it, but you might even learn something about war strategies, and international politics and diplomacy.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:57pm

Quote:

This is an article written by a Jew, I suggest you dimwits read what he says, and pay attention to the bold bits.

Quote:

I highly doubt it, but you might even learn something about war strategies, and international politics and diplomacy.

Please tell us all about diplomacy. You are clearly an 'artiste' in this realm.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:06pm

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:57pm:

Quote:

This is an article written by a Jew, I suggest you dimwits read what he says, and pay attention to the bold bits.

[quote]I highly doubt it, but you might even learn something about war strategies, and international politics and diplomacy.

Please tell us all about diplomacy. You are clearly an 'artiste' in this realm.[/quote]

I've tried, but I admit, with your level of ignorance, you probably need a team of international experts giving you 24 hour round the clock education, and even then...they would be up against it.

Hate and ignorance are a major impediment to education, and unfortunately for you...you have an abundance of both.

Did you read the article? Did you learn anything? No...see what I mean. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:13pm

yawn... ::)

Lester... did you answer my questions yet or are you avoiding them?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by oceanZ on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:19pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:13pm:

yawn... ::)

Lester... did you answer my questions yet or are you avoiding them?

"lester" lol. :D

I think hes avoiding them spurtles.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:46pm

Quote:

Hate and ignorance are a major impediment to education,

No hope for any reformation of Islam then, is there?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:52pm

lestat - i like how you describe the hamas in your posting

Quote:

.........a poorly armed guerilla group......

Own it.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:03pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:52pm:

lestat - i like how you describe the hamas in your posting

Quote:

.........a poorly armed guerilla group......

Own it.

It was actually Hezbollah that I described as that...but hey, I won't give you a hard time about that cause I seriously suspect you may be mentally ill.

Hang in there....

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:07pm

Calanen wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:46pm:

Quote:

Hate and ignorance are a major impediment to education,

No hope for any reformation of Islam then, is there?

Islam doesn't need reformation...its already perfect. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm

Quote:

So why isn't Hamas a laughing stock for claiming a great victory over Israel?

Quote:

THis Gaza crisis is very similar

So you think Hams 'held off' Israel, as opposed to hiding under their beds?

Quote:

What you seem to fail to comprehend, is that Hamas are Palestinians. Brothers, sisters, mothers, sons of Hamas members are the very same people that you are basically saying they dont care about.

Do you seriously believe this garbage...Have you even ever spoken to a Palestinian. Do you know any

They care about revenge, and are willing to sacrifice their brothers, sisters, mothers, sons etc for it, even if it is futile.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm

oceanz wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:19pm:

Grendel wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 9:13pm:

yawn... ::)

Lester... did you answer my questions yet or are you avoiding them?

"lester" lol. :D

I think hes avoiding them spurtles.

wow..you think thats funny? I suggest you get out more.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:48pm:

...
At the beginning of the conflict, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced two main goals for waging war on Hamas – to decisively smash the terrorist group's ability to attack Israel; and to stop Hamas' rocket attacks from Gaza aimed at nearby Jewish communities.
...

Both goals were achived.
1 There are no more rocket attacks by hamas
2 Even hardened hamas supporters fail to answer [b]When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

You proved it yourself. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:13pm

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:

So why isn't Hamas a laughing stock for claiming a great victory over Israel?

mod: personal attack

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:

So you think Hams 'held off' Israel, as opposed to hiding under their beds?

Do I? Where have I said that.

Once again...you revert to lies..its all you have, because without fail your arguments are pathetic to say the least.

freediver wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:

They care about revenge, and are willing to sacrifice their brothers, sisters, mothers, sons etc for it, even if it is futile.

Yes...the mod: personal attack from Australia knows better about the Palestinians then the Palestinians themselves.

THey're lives, their freedom from persecution, suffering and oppression in your eyes is futile.

We get it...you wish for the Palestians to die and suffer in silence. You have expressed thoughts clearly...forgive us if we treat your opinions with the disdain they deserve.

mod: personal attack

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:15pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:08pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 8:48pm:

BWAHAHAHAAH

Are you serious?

Hamas fired 20 rockets on the day that Israel announced its unilateral ceasefire mod: personal attack

Where do you come up with this nonsense?

Hamas did not try for victory...they were defending an act of agression from Israel. But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your fantasies.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:17pm

Obviously none of you even read the article I posted. Well, you can't say I didn't try.

mod: personal attack

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:21pm

Lestat, you just proved it again.

You must be a Zionist agent trying to disrcedit islam not that it needs to the way it is now ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:57pm

lestat, hamas got taken away.
they got invaded and taken, plucked out even as they hid amongst their kids.
From where they fired.

the same ones that murdered fatah when they won power.

What a history to inherit. I am glad it is not me.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:13pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 10:57pm:

haha.

Hamas haven't gone anywhere Sprint. They are still in power, and if you had read the article I posted (from a jew mind you), you would know this.

Here...I know this makes a liar of you..but please, don't take it personal. I am just trying to do the right thing and educate you.

"Hamas of course has declared "victory," which is overstating things. Hamas' "victory" was by default since its only goal was to survive the IDF beating. It achieved this not due to its might but because the IDF will not be launching the third stage of its attack, which would have devastated Hamas.

One real Hamas victory, though, is the international legitimacy the group received during the past few weeks. According to WND's Hamas sources, the group was in direct contact with Italy, France, the EU and U.N. representatives, many of whom, the sources said, expressed willingness to bring Hamas into the fold and out from isolation.

In the outcome of this war, a clear winner or loser cannot be determined. Both sides gained and lost. But if we are to judge based on which side achieved its objectives, Israel clearly did not win."

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 20^th, 2009 at 11:26pm

lestat - so, anything less than having 100% of the people there killed is a victory ?

But, the ones that were "martyered' were praised ?
So, what do they want ?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am

Lestat.

I believe in the Palestinian right to statehood and the right of Palestinians to maintain their claims to land. I believe in the right of Kurdistan to exist (would that the Muslim countries of Iran, Iraq and Turkey agree) and I also believe in the right of Israel to exist.

I believe that armed resistance against Israel is utterly futile. And I believe those who attempt to advance the Palestinian cause through violence will bring only death and loss to the Palestinians.

They’ll lose and they’ll lose big.

They’ll lose the opportunity to live in peace, the opportunity to work towards negotiating with Israel on the basis of mutual trust and respect, the opportunity to see their children grow up with realizable aspirations and they will lose the opportunity for a state. Armed resistance will guarantee them the opportunity to witness their childrens’ death from collateral damage or from dismemberment having blown themselves to bits in a deluded attempt to retake the untakeable.

The Salvation Army, Amnesty International are what we think of when asked to imagine a humanitarian organization. The IRA, ETA or Hamas are what most of us imagine as examples when asked to name an organization that employs violence as its key strategy for attaining its goals. Nearly every country in the world will not deal with Hamas, including all fellow Arab nations (except Iran and Syria) other than to pay lip service.

That a Palestinian war against Israel is futile is easily understood. The state of Israel, a nuclear power, will never be dismantled nor abandoned by the democracies, not even by those that criticize Israel most severely. Not ever.

One by one and sooner or later all Arab nations will sign peace treaties and accords with Israel and without Palestinian visionaries of peace, whose love for the peaceful aspirations of their own people is greater than their need to see them destroyed in aid of suicidal delusions, they will be left with nothing but war and death.

And Islamists, of course, know this. They may give blankets and food to the needy Palestinian… but they ask in return for his life to be sacrificed in the cause of Israel’s destruction and in the cause of pernicious religio-politics.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:57am

Well put Helian.... :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:24am

The main concern of any governing body should be the safety of those under its care.

In this hamas aim to fail. And they fail well

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:55am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

Thats good helilan, though I'd be interested to hear what sort of state you believe the Palestinian have the right to.

Statehood is really empty rhetoric that State is not viable. Do you believe Palestinians have the right to determine their own futures, control their borders and air space. A right to a military and self defence. Basically the same rights that every one has?

Or is a Palestinians state which has hundreds of Israeli settlements, blocking roads, without control of its borders or air space, existing only at the whim of Israel and under its control.

Because if its the latter helian...then this is not a state, it is oppression with another name.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

I believe that armed resistance against Israel is utterly futile. And I believe those who attempt to advance the Palestinian cause through violence will bring only death and loss to the Palestinians.

That 'futile armed resistence' you talk of is the reason that a 'two state solution' is even on the table. If it wasn't for the armed resistence, you would neither know, or even care about the Palestinians and their rights.

Fact is for decades the world was silent whilst Palestinians lives and home were destroyed. It was only after Munich, the PLO armed resistence, and the intifada in the 80's did the world actually look up and take notice.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

They’ll lose and they’ll lose big.

They've already lost big helian...and they have nothing left to lose. Nothing.

They are a people without hope, 60 years of oppression and persecution will do this. And watching the world give tacit approval to their sufffering has left a sour taste in their mouths.

Thats what you don't seem to understand. You say that they 'will' lose big. Tell me helian...whats left for them to lose.

They are fighting with the only thing they have left. Their lives.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

They’ll lose the opportunity to live in peace, the opportunity to work towards negotiating with Israel on the basis of mutual trust and respect, the opportunity to see their children grow up with realizable aspirations and they will lose the opportunity for a state.

They have been negotiating for almost 20 years...and what has it got them. More settlements, more checkpoints, more suffering. In fact, after Oslo Israel actually increased its settlement activitiy.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

Armed resistance will guarantee them the opportunity to witness their childrens’ death from collateral damage or from dismemberment having blown themselves to bits in a deluded attempt to retake the untakeable.

They're children have been dieing long before armed resistance Helian....just because the world didn't want to know or cared does not mean it didn't happen.

Armed resistance actually put the Palestinian issue on the map. It has achieved far more then the protacted negotiations which have resulted in the Palestinians actually being worst off.

Once again, I suggest you read how many settlements have been created since Oslo. Is this the 'negotiations' that you believe Palestinians should put their faith in.

Another 20 years of pain and suffering?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

The Salvation Army, Amnesty International are what we think of when asked to imagine a humanitarian organization.

The salvation army or amnesty international were not born from a society who has suffered 60 years of oppression.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

The IRA, ETA or Hamas are what most of us imagine as examples when asked to name an organization that employs violence as its key strategy for attaining its goals.

What are you saying...that people without statehood or a military have no right to self defence.

Take a look around helian, the US/Israel just to name two countries, who have employed violence as its key strategy for attaining its goals, Afghanistan/Iraq and Lebennon are clear examples of this.

Tell me, why is it ok for major military powers to use violence attain goals, but not ok for weak, desperate and often poor people.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:03am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

Nearly every country in the world will not deal with Hamas, including all fellow Arab nations (except Iran and Syria) other than to pay lip service.

Im not sure what your point is here. You know very well that it is pressure from the US which has resulted in Hamas isolation. And fact is that many European countries have been calling for a while now for discussion with Hamas, discussion which has now occurred during the latest ceasefire negotiations.

And as for arab countries...pfft, they are all murdering dictators who oppress their people with tacit US support and approval. They are actually far worst then Hamas.

But hey....they may be bastards...but they're 'our' bastards. We'll describe them as 'moderates' shall we.

what a joke.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

That a Palestinian war against Israel is futile is easily understood.

It has already been proven that it is not futile. Palestinian resistence has at least made people like you 'want' a Palestinian state. For the 3 decades before the armed resistance...quite frankly, people like you didn't care.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

The state of Israel, a nuclear power, will never be dismantled nor abandoned by the democracies, not even by those that criticize Israel most severely. Not ever.

Far more greater and more powerful states and empires have come crashing down. Every dog has its day, and Israel's day will come.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:12am:

One by one and sooner or later all Arab nations will sign peace treaties and accords with Israel and without Palestinian visionaries of peace, whose love for the peaceful aspirations of their own people is greater than their need to see them destroyed in aid of suicidal delusions, they will be left with nothing but war and death.

Whist Israel continue to oppress and inflict pain and suffering on the Palestinian people, this day will never come helian. Sorry but thats a fact.

Seems you advocate a one sided peace. Peace for the Israeli's...continued pain and suffering for the Palestinians.

War and death? This is all the Palestinian people have known for 60 years. A fact you don't seem to acknowledge.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 11:05am

Quote:

I believe in the Palestinian right to statehood and the right of Palestinians to maintain their claims to land.

Can you elaborate on that please Helian?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 11:59am

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:55am:

Statehood is really empty rhetoric that State is not viable. Do you believe Palestinians have the right to determine their own futures, control their borders and air space. A right to a military and self defence. Basically the same rights that every one has?

Or is a Palestinians state which has hundreds of Israeli settlements, blocking roads, without control of its borders or air space, existing only at the whim of Israel and under its control.

Yes I believe the Palestinians have a right to full statehood - a Republic of Palestine -which ultimately would require all organs of statehood, including defence and border control. I believe also that Palestinians have a right to bring to the table the weight of their grievances over land lost to Israel and have a right to have them considered in an atmosphere of respect.

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:55am:

And the IRA hammered away for decades but failed in its core objective of ending British sovereignty of the six counties comprising Northern Ireland. Do you think Hamas should continue to demand Israel's destruction?

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:55am:

Is there really nothing left for the Palestinians to lose? How much is there to gain by throwing themselves at a military machine? It's ironic that the Jews of first and second century made exactly that same mistake with the Romans, which precipitated the destruction of their Temple and their mass expulsion.

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:55am:

The salvation army or amnesty international were not born from a society who has suffered 60 years of oppression.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

Yes, they are true humanitarian organisations, in that they do not under any circumstances advocate or condone violence.

As an Arab, your heart is no doubt with the Palestinians perhaps in a way with which non-Arabs could not fully empathise. Were you a visionary negotiator for the Palestinian people, what vision would you have for them? Do you believe there is any viability in pursuing the goal of Israel's destruction? If so, how would you propose to curb Israel's increasingly catastrophic reprisals over Palestinian armed harassment of the state?

Instead of a two state solution, could you imagine the possibility of a Republic of Israel-Palestine?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:49pm

mod: totally off topic

Gaybriel,

My post was NOT off topic.

My post was speaking to the method used by ISLAM to obfuscate TRUTH.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:27pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:49pm:

mod: totally off topic

Gaybriel,

My post was NOT off topic.

My post was speaking to the method used by ISLAM to obfuscate TRUTH.

then perhaps you should try actually linking your rants to the topic at hand instead of cutting and pasting from random sites, then their relevance may actually become more clear instead of only being clear to you.

you made no comment re hamas or anything else that caused your cut and paste to bear any reflection on the topic.

bear it in mind for next time

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:34pm

So Lestat still failed to answer the question
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:39pm

It seems like you're being a bit biased there Gaybriel.

I'm sure there's plenty of "off topic" comments that you could've picked up on, but you chose this one.

I never really care where the debate ends up going when I start a thread anyway.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:42pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:34pm:

So Lestat still failed to answer the question
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

I already told you...the question is silly and doesn't make sense. I already told you why, though you conveniently ignored the issues I raised.

Hamas has not tried for victory. it was Israel which attacked, it was Israel which tried for victory, by invading Gaza, and hoping to destroy Hamas, and it was Israel that failed.

In fact, Israel has not achieved any goals...and have in fact made Hamas stronger. Or haven't you noticed Hamas officials meeting with European leaders in order to iron out a ceasefire.

Before this operation...no European leader receognised Hamas's claim to power....whereas now it appears that they do.

These are the facts...its time you learnt to deal with them.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:44pm

Quote:

Hamas has not tried for victory.

That's an odd way to achieve a great victory. So if you decide that your goal is to hide under the bed and hope they go away, and you survive, that is a 'great victory'?

Quote:

it was Israel which attacked

The the rockets weren't an attack? Is that the Palestinian style of diplomacy?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:50pm

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:44pm:

Quote:

Hamas has not tried for victory.

That's an odd way to achieve a great victory. So if you decide that your goal is to hide under the bed and hope they go away, and you survive, that is a 'great victory'?

[quote]it was Israel which attacked

The the rockets weren;t an attack? Is that the Palestinian style of diplomacy? [/quote]

Sigh...I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat myself. Do you have any idea about the ceasefire announced last year. I suggest you go and do some research, as you quite clearly have no idea.

Palestine upheld its end of the truce, Israel did not, and continued its blockage which was starving the people of Gaza. The UN co-ordinator of Gaza has admitted this in an article I posted in this very thread.

Hamas agreed to halt the rocket fire, Israel agreed to lift the blockage. Hamas stopped nearly all the rockets, Israel did absolutely nothing to lift the blockage, on the contrary, and actually increased the blockage, in addition to numerous targetted killings and the odd bomb here or their which resulted in civilian deaths.

After 6 months, Hamas realised that Israel were never going to uphold its end, therefore it decided not to renew the ccease fire agreement. Israel attacked, hamas began firing rockets.

Tell me FD? Would you have preferred that the cease fire continue, Hamas continue to uphold its end, whilst Israel did not, and that the Palestinian people slowly starve to death?

Go back and read the article I posted...I know its very unlikely, but just maybe you may learn something.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:55pm

Quote:

Palestine upheld its end of the truce, Israel did not, and continued its blockage which was starving the people of Gaza. The UN co-ordinator of Gaza has admitted this in an article I posted in this very thread.

Would you mind quoting the bit about starving people?.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:09pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:42pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:34pm:

So Lestat still failed to answer the question
When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

Israel kicked hamass because hamas was firing rockets into Israel. That is the fact.

You claim that the question is silly because you can not answer it. You can not answer it because you know that hamas can not do it.
So hamas rockets are not flying, hamas can not do it. The logical conclusion is IDF have achieved both of the objectives and hamas claim of victory looks shallow, stupid and criminal in respect of Palestinian people.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:18pm

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:55pm:

Quote:

Would you mind quoting the bit about starving people?.

Are you serious? Are you honestly saying that palestinians were not starving under the Israeli blockage.

Seriously...how do you keep a face fd?

If you truly don't believe that the palestinians were starving, and you need quotes and links to convince you, then really, discussing this issue with you is a waste of time. Your bigotry and hate has clearly clouded your judgement.

If only the Palestinians weren't muslims, I suspect you would have a rather different opinion.

Anyway..here you go, knock yourself out.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/15/opinion/edalpher.1-408140.php

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976086.html

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2008/12/22/2003431735

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-is-a-jail-nobody-is-allowed-to-leave-we-are-all-starving-now-415101.html

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:21pm

hamas had money and ability to get rockets but not food?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:29pm

Last update - 01:08 01/07/2008

Israel closes Gaza border crossings once again in wake of Qassam

By Fadi Eyadat and Shahar Ilan, Haaretz Correspondents and Reuters

The defense establishment decided late Monday to close the border crossings between Israel and Gaza after Palestinian gunmen fired a Qassam rocket into the western Negev Monday afternoon in violation of a cease fire agreement between Israel and Hamas.

Two early warning "Color Red" sirens were heard in the Sha'ar Hanegev area and a rocket struck an open field shortly after. No injuries or damage were reported.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for what was the fourth such attack since the Egypt-brokered truce went into effect on June 19.

On Sunday, Israel reopened three of its border crossings with the Gaza Strip after cross-border rocket fire stopped.

Israel had shut the crossings on June 25 after an Islamic Jihad rocket salvo which the Palestinian faction said was in retaliation for Israel's killing of one of its leaders in the West Bank.

Other Gaza militants have also fired a rocket and two mortar bombs in two separate incidents.

The Egyptian-brokered ceasefire requires militant groups to halt rocket fire in return for Israel gradually easing its blockade of the impoverished territory.

Israel sharply cut back the supply of goods into the Gaza Strip a year ago, after the Islamic militant group Hamas took over the territory from forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas's more secular Fatah faction.

I'd never open the borders to those thugs, they should go ask their Arab mates.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:34pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:18pm:

Seriously...how do you keep a face fd?

I dunno, the same way you keep a cat, I bet. Just keep feeding it.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:39pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:18pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:55pm:

Quote:

Would you mind quoting the bit about starving people?.

Are you serious? Are you honestly saying that palestinians were not starving under the Israeli blockage.

Seriously...how do you keep a face fd?

No Lestat. If you read what I actually posted, you would see that I merely asked you to quote the passage you claimed to have already posted that supports this claim. I notice you were unable to do so. I also checked the first link you supplied as evidence. It directly contradicted you.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by locutius on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 4:42pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:50pm:

Hamas agreed to halt the rocket fire, Israel agreed to lift the blockage. Hamas stopped nearly all the rockets, Israel did absolutely nothing to lift the blockage, on the contrary, and actually increased the blockage, in addition to numerous targetted killings and the odd bomb here or their which resulted in civilian deaths.

After 6 months, Hamas realised that Israel were never going to uphold its end, therefore it decided not to renew the ccease fire agreement. Israel attacked, hamas began firing rockets.

Tell me FD? Would you have preferred that the cease fire continue, Hamas continue to uphold its end, whilst Israel did not, and that the Palestinian people slowly starve to death?

Go back and read the article I posted...I know its very unlikely, but just maybe you may learn something.

Did you mean to say stopped nearly all rockets as acting on their agreement to stop all rockets?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 4:49pm

No wonder I have to ask Lestat to back the claims he makes.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 4:59pm

Amadd wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:39pm:

Yadda has a history of randomly spamming with useless posts and topics

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 5:53pm

Lestat

Were you a visionary negotiator for the Palestinian people, what vision would you have for them? Do you believe there is any viability in pursuing the goal of Israel's destruction? If so, how would you propose to curb Israel's increasingly catastrophic reprisals while Hamas continues its armed harassment of the state?

Would you accept a two state solution?

Instead of a two state solution, could you imagine the possibility of a Republic of Israel-Palestine?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 6:00pm

he can't even comment of what he thinks.
Or in point form why Hamas was victoriuos.

I wouldn't be waiting around for answers.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 7:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 5:53pm:

Lestat

Were you a visionary negotiator for the Palestinian people, what vision would you have for them?

To live in peace and safety, with the ability to determine their own futures...just like the rest of us Helian.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 5:53pm:

Do you believe there is any viability in pursuing the goal of Israel's destruction?

In comparison to doing nothing, dieing and suffering in silence.
Absolutely.

Fact is helian, Israel should never have been created in the first place, especially in Palestine, a land which was already occupied by people, who had lived on the land for 1300 years.

Israel will be destroyed. It is inevitable, the Palestinian population growth will ensure this. Israel know this, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They cannot annex the occupied territories because this will result in jews being a minority within Israel in less then 50 years. Yet they do not want to give up the occupied territories, as deep down, they feel that the westbank is a part of Greater Eretz...

So their strategy is to ensure that protacted negotiations go on forever, keep a perpetual state of war in tact, and keep the Palestinian population in check with oppression, and suffering. They are hoping that things get so bad for the Palestinians that they leave, and if they don't, they will be killed. In this way they keep the numbers down.

It isn't a coincidence that the majority of Israeli victims are woman and children. And the numerous reports of Israeli's refusing pregnant women passage through checkpoints, whilst they are in labour, is evidence of this policy.

Peace will destroy Israel...and they know this.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 5:53pm:

If so, how would you propose to curb Israel's increasingly catastrophic reprisals while Hamas continues its armed harassment of the state?

But thats just it, Israels reprisals aren't 'catastrophically increasing' at all. Its just that you and most in the west have very short memories.

Have you already forgotten Bait Jenin. These Israeli massacres are quite a regular occurance. Like I said, its their way of keeping the Palestinian numbers down.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 5:53pm:

Would you accept a two state solution?

No I wouldn't, especially the one that Israe/US is proposing. A state where Israel controls the borders, no military, and no control of its air space. A state scattered with Israeli settlements, and a great wall cutting right through its territory. Who in their right mind would accept such a state.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 5:53pm:

Instead of a two state solution, could you imagine the possibility of a Republic of Israel-Palestine?

I would support a one state solution, but their is absolutely no way Israel would accept this, for the reasons I have described before.

Aparthied policies are the only way Israel can survive, and they know this. Even amongst Israels arab population..it is envisaged that within 60 years arabs will make up 40% of Israel's population.

Israel is petrified of losing its jewish identity, however, it is inevitable, Palestinian demographics makes it certain.

Now I've answered your questions...would you care to answer some of mine?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 7:59pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 6:00pm:

he can't even comment of what he thinks.
Or in point form why Hamas was victoriuos.

I wouldn't be waiting around for answers.

I've already answered why Hamas was victorious....I even posted an article explaining it for those of you who are a bit slow.

It doesn't surprise me that you still don't get it.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:09pm

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:39pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:18pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:55pm:

Quote:

Would you mind quoting the bit about starving people?.

Are you serious? Are you honestly saying that palestinians were not starving under the Israeli blockage.

Seriously...how do you keep a face fd?

Reply #47.

Oh, and tell me once again how the link I provided directly contradicted me?

And you still have failed to answer my question...do you honestly believe that the Israeli blockage of Gaza was not starving the Palestinians.

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:15pm

I asked YOU specific question...

YOU failed to answer them.

YOU are in avoidance.

I don't recall YOU answering me at all.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:16pm

locutius wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 4:42pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:50pm:

Did you mean to say stopped nearly all rockets as acting on their agreement to stop all rockets?

The PA were unable to stop all the rockets, even Israel with all their might when they occupied Gaza could not stop all the rockets. This is what happens when people live under oppression and persecution for 60 years. They lose hope.

Don't underestimate the psychological scarring that occurs Palestinian children are continuously abused by IDF soldiers..those that are lucky enough not to be killed that is.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-0bdbA2Ka3Bo/palestinian_children_beaten_by_israeli_soldier/
These children go up to be adults. This behaviour is what contributes to the Palestinians hate...not what Hamas teaches them.

Hamas came down hard on many splinter groups, and stopped many attacks. Yes some got through, however, the fact remains that from day one Israel were in breach, as they never lifted the blockage.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:19pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:15pm:

I asked YOU specific question...

YOU failed to answer them.

YOU are in avoidance.

I don't recall YOU answering me at all.

You asked me to list why Hamas was victorious...and I have done so, a number of times.

I can't be held responsible for your incapability to see what is before your very eyes.

And 10 pages on, not one person has been able to state one Israeli goal which was achieved during this operation.

I have posted many links explaining why Israel is being viewed as the loser...whereas you, once again have provided nothing..amid empty claims of 'victory'.

Its an all to familiar pattern with you. :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:23pm

ROTFLMAO

Israel could raze Gaza to the ground.

Is that what you'd prefer?

Thank God they at least are rational people.

I will wait a little longer before reposting my original questions... give you a bit of time to think up some logical answers, instead of regurgitating rubbish

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:30pm

KEEP IT CIVIL

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:30pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 6:00pm:

he can't even comment of what he thinks.
Or in point form why Hamas was victoriuos.

I wouldn't be waiting around for answers.

Grendel: Please list in point form why Hamas was victorious.

Lestat: I have already listed why I believe Hamas was victorious.

Grendel: No you haven't.

Lestat (way back at reply 4):

The war did not stop rocket firing, did not end Hamas rule in Gaza and did not even succeed to free captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Hamas has been strengthened, and Abass and his impotent PA has lost credibility amongst Palestinians, and has in fact been weakened by this affair.

Grendel: You still haven't answered my question. I will keep asking until you have.

:D:D

And this man thinks he has an IQ of 139.

BWAHAHAHAHA

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:31pm

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:30pm:

KEEP IT CIVIL

Perhaps you can ask this irritating poster to stop posting questions that have been numerously answered in this thread.

Its getting rather boring to be honest.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:32pm

well then stop replying lestat. it's that simple.

I'm here to keep things civil, not be your mother

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:39pm

Oh lestat.... here boy, here boy...

Ok you think this is a victory for Hamas right?
You are happy 'bout that right?
Why?

In point form, how is this in any way a victory for Hamas?
How in point form is this a victory for the palestinian people?

Ok so far all you've replied is "lol you losers..."

Care to try for something reasonable?
Oh and mantra brought up my IQ... you seem a tad obsessed. You keep repeating it all over the place like some sad jealous kid.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:51pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 8:39pm:

look up, 3 posts before yours....ah forget it.

I give up.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:17pm

I think I found the defintion in the dictionary.

Hamas victory
Origin: Islam

Hamas victory /ˈvɪktəri, ˈvɪktri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ham -arse -vik-tuh-ree, vik-tree] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun, plural -ries.
1. an imagined success or triumph over an enemy in battle or war.
2. an engagement ending in total domination where the loser claims victory
Analogy: The new vaccine effected a victory over poliomyelitis, however, all of the patients died.

Expression; usage:
They would've had to of "Done a Bradbury" to win the battle, but upon failure they claimed a "Hamas Victory".

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 10:19pm

amadd - hahahhaha

A "hamas victory" means there is still one obsessive imbicile alive to croak "We won."

No wonder even other scumbag muslim countries have dropped them like a schoolbag.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 10:31pm

3 posts before it doesn't cut it Lestat that's why I asked ::) ::) ::)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 10:36pm

Quote:

Gaza City, 15 Jan. (AKI) - Palestinian and Israeli sources say two senior Hamas leaders, among them the group's Interior Minister Said Siam, were killed during an Israeli targeted assassination on Thursday.

Hamas' head of general security service Salah Abu Sharah was also killed in the airstrike, as well as the head of its military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, Mahmoud Watfah.

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=3.0.2912546259

Quote:

GAZA - Israel killed a senior Hamas leader in an air attack on his home on Thursday, striking its first deadly blow against the top ranks of the Islamist group in a Gaza offensive that has claimed more than 400 Palestinian lives.

Nizar Rayyan, a cleric widely regarded as one of Hamas’s most hardline political leaders, had called for renewed suicide bombings inside Israel. Medical officials, confirming his death, said another nine people, including members of Rayyan’s family, were killed in the bombing in Jabalya refugee camp.

Many Hamas leaders are in hiding, anticipating assassination attempts by Israel, whose military confirmed the air strike. Hamas Radio said Rayyan rejected Hamas advice to leave his house.

Rayyan, 49, an influential preacher at what is known in Jabalya as the “mosque of martyrs” mentored suicide bombers and with an ammunition belt strapped to his stocky frame, would sometimes patrol with Hamas fighters.

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=18469

I'm not sure that Hamas could afford to have too many more 'victories' like this one.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 12:07am

Poor muslim boy got humiliated once again. Would it not be simpler to honestly answer the question When hamas will try for another victory of this sort?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 12:12am

Calanen wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 10:36pm:

Quote:

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=3.0.2912546259

[quote]GAZA - Israel killed a senior Hamas leader in an air attack on his home on Thursday, striking its first deadly blow against the top ranks of the Islamist group in a Gaza offensive that has claimed more than 400 Palestinian lives.

Nizar Rayyan, a cleric widely regarded as one of Hamas’s most hardline political leaders, had called for renewed suicide bombings inside Israel. Medical officials, confirming his death, said another nine people, including members of Rayyan’s family, were killed in the bombing in Jabalya refugee camp.

Many Hamas leaders are in hiding, anticipating assassination attempts by Israel, whose military confirmed the air strike. Hamas Radio said Rayyan rejected Hamas advice to leave his house.

Rayyan, 49, an influential preacher at what is known in Jabalya as the “mosque of martyrs” mentored suicide bombers and with an ammunition belt strapped to his stocky frame, would sometimes patrol with Hamas fighters.

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=18469

I'm not sure that Hamas could afford to have too many more 'victories' like this one.[/quote]

I have given the formula for calculation of how many times they can do it. Here it is again
"Take number of palestinians who support hamas murderers, divide it by number of palestinians sacrificed for hamas vanity and you will get number of such victories that hamas need."

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 6:42am

Any war in which mostly civilians were massacred in their homes will have no winners.

However, all Lestat and myself have stated is that Israel did not achieve the objectives it stated it was aiming to achieve at the outset of the incursion.

Unless anyone can show they achieved those objectives, then they must admit that Israel failed. Hamas have emerged from this whole affair stronger than before, so one would have to conclude they had some 'victory' no matter how minor it might be, only time will tell us that.

You must remember that wars aren't just about the number of casualties you inflict, especially not if most of them are civilian deaths anyway. Hamas reported only about 45 deaths, and reported having killed over 100 IDF soldiers. No doubt the IDF has different numbers, and no doubt you consider only them to be a credible source. I really don't know, but I do know that non-Muslims have a long track record of not reporting their military losses during conflicts with Muslims. This began in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, when the USSR would routinely not disclose how many casualties they were suffering, and would often report helicopter downings as "accidents". We see the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan today, the resistance fighters routinely report shooting down helicopters, the US deny it, then later claim it was friendly fire, or an accident. They have no choice, their citizens won't support a war if too many of their sons and daughters are dying in it.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 6:52am

GAYBRIEL,
THIS POST IS CLEARLY OFF TOPIC

......BUT I AM REPLYING TO AN 'ERROR' BEING PERPETRATED IN ANOTHER POST, BY LESTAT.

I HOPE THAT YOU DON'T FEEL COMPELLED TO REMOVE THIS POST.

+++++++++++

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 3:18pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 2:55pm:

Would you mind quoting the bit about starving people?.

Are you serious? Are you honestly saying that palestinians were not starving under the Israeli blockage.

Seriously...how do you keep a face fd?

If you truly don't believe that the palestinians were starving, and you need quotes and links to convince you, then really, discussing this issue with you is a waste of time. Your bigotry and hate has clearly clouded your judgement.

If only the Palestinians weren't muslims, I suspect you would have a rather different opinion.

Gazans receive $billions in aid from the world community.

Where does much of that aid end up???

Google this....
Arafat died a billionaire.
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Arafat+died+a+billionaire.&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Also, huge stores of food have entered Gaza, but its distribution is being restricted, by Hamas.

The border crossings are closely controlled by the Israelis, yes.

The controls and restrictions on the border crossings, are an attempt to deny Hamas access to the Gazans primary 'commerce', the smuggling of arms into Gaza, which the Israelis wish to deny them.

So as to 'protest' the Israeli border controls, Hamas restricts the distribution of food within Gaza, and blames Israel for 'shortages', and the hardships of the Gaza residents.

These hardships are imposed upon the ppl of Gaza, by Hamas, not by Israel.

PLENTY OF FOOD TO BURN, IN GAZA

I saw a TV news report from Gaza, just the other day.

The report was giving an account of an Israeli bombing strike against a UN compound [the Israelis claimed its environs had being used as a rocket base, by Hamas fighters, those 'warriors' of ISLAM].

NOTABLY, Behind the UN worker, who was complaining to the TV news crew about the Israeli strike, was the [now] open warehouse, with donated food stacked half way to the roof.

There was a huge blaze roaring out of the opening in the U.N. warehouse, as the huge quantity of food burned.

Hamas refuses to distribute food to its people
http://www.topix.com/forum/source/hampton-roads-daily-press/T8MK0S8PAHUTQ5NPF

Why is hamas refusing to help the people in gaza? - Yahoo! Answers
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090105144958AAdPzAv

Google,
Hamas refuses to distribute food
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Hamas+refuses+to+distribute+food&btnG=Search&meta=

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 8:35am

Quote:

We see the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan today, the resistance fighters routinely report shooting down helicopters, the US deny it, then later claim it was friendly fire, or an accident. They have no choice, their citizens won't support a war if too many of their sons and daughters are dying in it.

The casualties in Iraq are a matter of public record. So are you saying there are dead soldiers, not on the official lists? Maybe the odd black ops person (and we'd be talking single digits). Do you think someone could die and they would tell the family, dont claim your death benefits, pretend he's alive - dont have a funeral, because its in the interests of national security?

This is just silly stuff. US casualties are documented in the most minute detail. Its the jihadis that are rubbery, because no records are kept.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 9:30am

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 7:58pm:

Israel will be destroyed. It is inevitable, the Palestinian population growth will ensure this. Israel know this, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They cannot annex the occupied territories because this will result in jews being a minority within Israel in less then 50 years.

You're referring to the exploitation of the hole in the heart of the democratic status quo whereby its enemies outbreed its defenders and destroy it from within. You suggest there will be (to coin a new Bushism) a 'Fijification' of Israel. The Fijians, having acted too late, are now condemned to endless coups to ensure native Fijian dominance.

Thankfully Israel has a rocket-lobbing charity organisation on its side that gives it options when dealing with the possibility of the covert enemy.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:01am

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 7:58pm:

Israel will be destroyed. It is inevitable, the Palestinian population growth will ensure this. Israel know this, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They cannot annex the occupied territories because this will result in jews being a minority within Israel in less then 50 years. Yet they do not want to give up the occupied territories, as deep down, they feel that the westbank is a part of Greater Eretz...

Lestat,

Wow!

You seem very certain of that.

But, but, but,
......i thought that all of you devout muslims believed in God?

Lestat, you should read....
Ezekiel 35

God himself says he is there in Israel.....

".....Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas the LORD was there:....."

Don't worry Lestat, i'm just a crazy believer.

You know, one of those ppl who knows that it is muslims who are the real unbelievers in God.

"Are muslims God's people?"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226445495/0#0

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:03am

"It is inevitable, the Palestinian population growth will ensure this. Israel know this, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place." (c) by Lestat

In his threat against Israel Lestat also described the threat of muslims against any democratic country where muslims appear.
That is why muslem immigration should be stopped and their rabbit tactics should be dealt with immediately.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:34am

Quote:

That is why muslem immigration should be stopped and their rabbit tactics should be dealt with immediately.

I agree that this tactic is an utter disgrace. It shows how far muslim societies wil go in an attempt to usurp some type of supremacy.
All the while, the compassionate west provides humanitarian aid for their dumbass tactics in a world that needs a smaller more self-sufficient population.
It's going to come down to us or them in the end.
The longer this problem festers, the worse it will get, so there's no use delaying the inevitable.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:39am

mass casteration and sterilisation ??

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:50am

Quote:

mass casteration and sterilisation ??

Ideally yes ;D

But limtations could be put into place similar to China.
ie: Less aid on a graduating scale for the more children they have.
I'd prefer harsher methods.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 11:23am

amadd - if they have any children, they don't need any aid.

:-)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by abu_rashid on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 7:38pm

Quote:

Ideally yes Grin

But limtations could be put into place similar to China.
ie: Less aid on a graduating scale for the more children they have.
I'd prefer harsher methods.

Not unlike your atheist friends you are an inhuman monster. You would do your fellow atheists, Stalin, Mao et al. proud.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 1:57am

Did Hamas achieve a great victory? Of course – at least in its own mind. It has, it believes, advanced its objective in making "death an industry of the Palestinian people"

Israel has no greater friend and ally than Hamas – the rocket-lobbing ‘charity’ organization of death.

You could almost imagine a Pythonesque debate breaking out in Israeli coffee shops - "What have the Hamas ever done for us?"

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:52am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 1:57am:

Fact is Helian...death was made an industry for the Palestinians by the Israeli's...long before Hamas even existed.

Or do you honsestly believe that Palestinians were not being murdered by Israel before the creation of Hamas.

Tell me Helian, given that Hamas only emerged in the 90's....who is your scapegoat for the other 50 odd years of massacres and persecution.

Do you hold Israel responsible at all? Ever?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:54am

:D :D :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:54am

Yadda wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:01am:

Lestat wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 7:58pm:

What a surprise...another garbage cut and paste from a garbage poster.

And its ironiic isn't it, the same Christian posters who continuously argue that the Old testement is to be ignored, and the New testement is what they follow....is now quoting the Old testement.

Your right about one thing Yadda...You are crazy. The fact that you cannot string together one coherrent sentence is evidence of this.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:55am

Amadd wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:34am:

Quote:

That is why muslem immigration should be stopped and their rabbit tactics should be dealt with immediately.

I agree...having children and raising families is just a despicable act. ::)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:01am

ROTFLMAO at Muslim braindead ignorance.

The Jewish God the Christian God and YOUR God are (supposedly) the same God... the NT is about the TEACHINGS of Christ. The OT is about Jewish history and prophecy... so yes contextually it is correct to quote it in some instances.

Derrrrr..... :D :D :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:03am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:39am:

mass casteration and sterilisation ??

sprint,

A little harsh. ;D

I would say, i would suggest, that many muslims are good ppl,
.....but they are being directed by an evil influence.

Why not simply remove the evil influence?

I direct you to my comments here,

"Israel accused over Gaza wounded"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231430119/10#10

".....It should be our governments policy [within Australia],
* to destroy all mosques,
* deport all imam's,
* and to deport any [and every] person who claims to practice, and follow, the political philosophy called, ISLAM."

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:09am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:01am:

In 'some' instances hey. How convenient for you.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:10am

idiot!

wassup, logic got your tongue. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:13am

Lestat wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:54am:

Your right about one thing Yadda...You are crazy. The fact that you cannot string together one coherrent sentence is evidence of this.

Lestat,

Poor me.

I am always kicking against the pricks of life!

Such is life.

Acts 9:3
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:17am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:10am:

idiot!

wassup, logic got your tongue. ;D ;D ;D

huh...are you trying to defeat me with your stupidity again.

Its a competent weapon...that thick head of yours.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:18am

Yadda wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:13am:

Lestat,

Poor me.

I am always kicking against the pricks of life!

You should stop that...you might hurt yourself.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:23am

"Context" too big a word for you?

Surely that cant be you muslims use that as an excuse at every opportunity.

Only thing is in this case it's not a hollow excuse or lie.

hence your inability to refute it and just crap on as usual.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:40am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:23am:

Once again, your posts are their for all to see. A number of times, when Abu has highlighted for example violent Bible verses (from Levictus for example). You have claimed that it is the OT, therfore irrelevant.

Are you denying this? And now your claiming that it is the 'context'. hahahaha

Do you even know the meaning of the word 'context'. Apparnetly not.

This is why Christianity is considered a joke in the western world. You pick and choose what you want to believe.

Keep the comedy coming clown.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:43am

Put you brain back in lester

I don't have double standards...

The comment was appropriate for the context.

get an adult to explain it for you and stop trying to build strawmen when you are intellectually incapable.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:51am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:43am:

Context is irrelivent dimwit..it is from the OT, and you have argued numerous times that Christians do not follow the OT.

Once again, picking and choosing. How convenient.

It doesn't surprise me that you pea sized brain can't see the double standards.

you have just shown Boofy that the OT is a part of the Bible, and is considered as scripture (to be followed) by Christians...the fact that you (and other Christians) choose to quote from it is evidence of this fact.

Therefore, any texts from the OT can be used as criticism of Christianity.

If you can use the OT to attack other people or religons (as Yadda has done), then it goes both ways.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:53am

Lestat wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:40am:

This is why Christianity is considered a joke in the western world. You pick and choose what you want to believe.

Are you saying all Muslims agree as one on Koranic interpretation?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:56am

Good grief... he was referring to the existence of Israel and cited biblical "prophecy" re it in answer to your crap. It so happens that it exists in the OT.
Which I've already explained.

You are the one trying to pick and choose lester. Do get a life. :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:58am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:53am:

Lestat wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:40am:

This is why Christianity is considered a joke in the western world. You pick and choose what you want to believe.

Are you saying all Muslims agree as one on Koranic interpretation?

We don't pick and choose which parts of the Quran we are going to follow.

Interpretation is a bit different to denying the validity of whole chapters. eg Levictus.

Besides, the interpretations of the Quran does not really vary that much...it is the hadiths and Shariah jurispedence which have differences in interpretations.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:00am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:56am:

Good grief... he was referring to the existence of Israel and cited biblical prophecy re it in answer to your crap. It so happens that it exists in the OT.
Which I've already explained.

You are the one trying to pick and choose lester. Do get a life. :D

Biblical prophecy which is in the OT, the same OT which you have stated a number of times is not Christian doctrine.

Now why would a Christian be quoting from a scripture which you have stated is not Christian doctrine.

You don't see muslims quoting from Hindu books. :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:00am

Round and round we go... shall we get off and leave it to the Muslims to get dizzy on their own after all they are so use to spin.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:06am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:00am:

Round and round we go... shall we get off and leave it to the Muslims to get dizzy on their own after all they are so use to spin.

Have you stated in the past that the OT is not Christian doctrine?

Was the prophecy that Yadda (who is Christian) from the OT?

Yes or no answers will suffice. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:08am

So Christians can't quote other doctrines?

Don't you believe in parts of other doctrines?

yes or no will do since you appear so intellectually challenged this morning.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:12am

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:08am:

So Christians can't quote other doctrines?

Don't you believe in parts of other doctrines?

yes or no will do since you appear so intellectually challenged this morning.

As a muslim, why would I quote from another doctrine, when my own is the perfect and complete religon.

Thats ok, I guess it shows the little faith you have in your beliefs. Fair enough, with the amount of inconsistencies, errors and contraditions in the NT, I understand your need to quote from 'non-Christian' scriptures as you put.

Shame that the OT has just as many errors. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:17am

More strawmen?

You are a goose...

You'd think that at least once you could answer one of my questions.

Oh well... your stupidity and ignorance is a fine example for all Muslims to follow.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:24am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 7:38pm:

Quote:

Ideally yes Grin

But limtations could be put into place similar to China.
ie: Less aid on a graduating scale for the more children they have.
I'd prefer harsher methods.

Not unlike your atheist friends you are an inhuman monster. You would do your fellow atheists, Stalin, Mao et al. proud.

Yes this is a filthy plague that western countries are turning a blind eye to.
Islamic countries are breeding cannon fodder now and as they've always done in an attempt to realise the "dream" of Allah.
Unfortunately it's a trait of the west to not only allow this to happen, but to help them do it.
It's the western countries who conquer their attackers and then not only negotiate to return sovereignty to them, but also help them to build a viable nation.
Can you name a few Islamic countries that have done this Abu?
No you cannot, because the idealism of Islam is only to conquer, by whatever pathetic and dastardly methods they can employ.
It's time to do something about this filthy plague before it's too late.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 11:39am

amadd please don't refer to other human beings en masse as filth- you're starting to sound a bit adolf

to suggest muslims have big families as some underhanded plot to over take the world is ridiculous, crazy and conspiratorial

what about mormons? are they also plotting to take over the world? what about irish catholics? god knows they have huge families

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 12:35pm

Quote:

I'm referring to the plague of brainwashing. Islamic brainwashing is a dirty filthy plague.

And it might be seen as a conspiracy if this world domination objective wasn't already announced by Abu, Lestat, Islamic followers and muslim clerics worldwide. Not to mention of course, the quran.
Then it becomes reality.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 12:50pm

hmmm- brainwashing. interesting

I don't doubt that islam encourages you to have kids etc etc- but so do many other religions. they say "have kids raise them as ___ and then they'll grow up as ___ and teach their kids to be ___ thus increasing the population of ___ which will make the world a better place because there are more ___ in it"

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 1:18pm

How many religions do you suppose do this.
I'm Christian... my church never did.
Catholics used to in fact you had to be Catholic to marry a Catholic at one stage. Later you could marry a Catholic but you had to promise your kids would be brought up Catholic. Don't think this goes on any more in most Western countries. If it does it is certainly on its way out.

religions should not be about barriers to love.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:06pm

Was I supposed to fill in the blanks there Gaybriel with words like: Islamic, martyrs and brainwashed?

I don't like to see any kids being brainwashed with religion, let alone Islam. They're not old enough to form such opinions and it's one that shouldn't be made for them.
Islam teaches hate, and the more they read the quran, the more ignorance, intolerance and hatred they'll find within. By this stage, it's usually too late, their whole life has already been committed to Islam for them because Islam is far more about political doctrines than it is about spirituality.
The legal age here to vote is 18, and I'd like to see the legal age for religious indoctrination to be also set at this age - preferably 64 for Islam.
If you don't realise the power of brainwashing, then you must've been living under a rock for the majority of your life. Why do you think they pray 5 times a day?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Calanen on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:28pm

Lestat wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:06am:

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 10:00am:

Round and round we go... shall we get off and leave it to the Muslims to get dizzy on their own after all they are so use to spin.

Have you stated in the past that the OT is not Christian doctrine?

Was the prophecy that Yadda (who is Christian) from the OT?

Yes or no answers will suffice. :)

Speaking of which, you never gave a yes or no answer as to whether or not you supported Hamas.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:47pm

Quote:

Speaking of which, you never gave a yes or no answer as to whether or not you supported Hamas.

After which, Abu is going to tell me how many Islamic nations have ever returned sovereignty to a nation they've conquered.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:49pm

Didn't the Spanish regain soveriegnty after being liberated by the Muslims? East Timor too.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:55pm

They install Islam, that's all they ever do.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Lestat on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 4:05pm

Amadd wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:55pm:

They install Islam, that's all they ever do.

no Armadd...your not quite right. We don't 'install' anything. It is the people, who recognise the truth, and embrace Islam.

The inhabitants discover Islam, and they come to the fold in droves.

or haven't you noticed that here, in Australia, people are joining Islam in its hundreds. Especially your woman.

Islam has the fastest conversion rate of all religons in Australia...much of those are anglo saxon from Christian upbringing.
There are two that post on these boards.

We have not attacked Australia, invaded Australia, we just live our lives, and when people learn of our religon, and read the words of God, they discover the truth, and do what they know in thier hearts is right.

Then their are those that choose to remain in ignorance, but insha'alla they will also see the truth. :)

You know this, and it petrifies you, and nothing you can do will change it. Your helpless. :)

The truth will always defeat lies and ignorance. :)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 4:09pm

Quote:

The truth will always defeat lies and ignorance.

Is that why Muslims think apostates should be killed? Is that how the truth defeats ignorance?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Amadd on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 4:13pm

Quote:

The truth will always defeat lies and ignorance.

You're right. So I've really got nothing to be concerned about.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 6:15pm

ROTFLMAO

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

i'm sorry.... still haven't gotten over lestat's last comment re converts... bwa ha ha ha ha ha.... :D

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 10:10pm

Scenes from an Israeli Café – a loan from Monty Python.

ARIEL: So what have Hamas ever done for us?!

YITSHAK: They publicly declare our state has no right to exist, thus proving they're a mortal enemy.

ARIEL: What?

YITSHAK: They publicly declare our state has no right to exist, thus proving they're a mortal enemy.

ARIEL: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They do say that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

MOSHE: They lob rockets on us, proving to us and the world they want war not peace.

IRA: Oh, yeah, the lobbing of rockets, Ariel.

ARIEL: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the ‘no right to exist’ and the rocket lobbing are two things that Hamas have done for us.

MATTHIAS: And declaring Palestinians are the agents of death, thus declaring every Palestinian a terrorist.

ARIEL: Well, yeah. Obviously that. I mean, it goes without saying, doesn’t it? But apart from the ‘no right to exist’, the rocket lobbing, and the agents of death thing…

MOSHE: The use of children as human shields, proving they’re worse than animals.

YITSHAK: Smuggling of weapons..

ARIEL: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

IRA: Refusal to negotiate.

MOSHE, IRA: Oh, yes. Yeah...

ARIEL: All right, but apart the ‘no right to exist’, the rocket lobbing, and the agents of death thing, human shields, weapons smuggling and refusal to negotiate, what have Hamas ever done for us?

YITSHAK: Reinforced our right to strong defence?

ARIEL: Oh. Defence… Shut up!

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 11:02pm

hahahahahhaha

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Yadda on Jan 25^th, 2009 at 12:56am

Lestat wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 4:05pm:

Amadd wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 3:55pm:

They install Islam, that's all they ever do.

no Armadd...your not quite right. We don't 'install' anything. It is the people, who recognise the truth, and embrace Islam.

The inhabitants discover Islam, and they come to the fold in droves.

or haven't you noticed that here, in Australia, people are joining Islam in its hundreds. Especially your woman.

Islam has the fastest conversion rate of all religons in Australia...much of those are anglo saxon from Christian upbringing.
There are two that post on these boards.

We have not attacked Australia, invaded Australia, we just live our lives, and when people learn of our religon, and read the words of God, they discover the truth, and do what they know in thier hearts is right.

Then their are those that choose to remain in ignorance, but insha'alla they will also see the truth. :)

You know this, and it petrifies you, and nothing you can do will change it. Your helpless. :)

The truth will always defeat lies and ignorance. :)

Very true.

Trouble is, whenever people speak an inconvenient truth within Sharia jurisdictions, they tend to end up dead, or 'disappeared'.

TRUTH needs no defender.

Violence and lies, try to suppressed TRUTH.

But as you say,
The truth will always defeat lies and ignorance.

Proof of that statement [truth will always defeat lies and ignorance]....

Iran : A 17 year old girl is sentenced to death by hanging.
Faithfreedom
2006/01/08
Nazanin, 17, was sentenced to death by hanging for defending herself against three rapists.
A young girl who defended herself and her chastity against three male assailants who intended to kidnap and rape her causing injury to one of them who later died in hospital was condemned to death by hanging in an Islamic court in Iran. Nazanin who has seen no more than 17 Springs, all of which under the tyrannical rule of the Mullahs is now facing execution for trying to defend herself and her honor...
........I became concerned for the plight of my people in Iran and her neighboring countries and decided to investigate the cause. I asked myself whether all this is because the gentle and peaceful message of Islam is misunderstood and whether there is a way to revive the pure Islam and save my country. It was in this quest that I realized, to my chagrin, that the human right abuses are not deviations from the true Islam but they ARE teachings of Islam.
I realized that in Islam, Man has no rights! All the rights are reserved for Allah. Man has only duties. Among his duties, he has to pray five times a day, believe in the religion of Allah and submit his will, thoughts and intelligence to him. Any independence from Allah, even at the level of thought is punishable by beating, imprisonment and death.
http://difficultimages.blogspot.com/2006/04/cruel-islam-and-iran-is-worst.htmli

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 12:57pm

Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 1:18pm:

if it's not practised now that's down to societal shift, not down to fundamentals of the religion changing.

as far as I'm aware it's actively encouraged within christianity for christians to wed within their church/faith

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 1:28pm

Are you a Catholic?

Well as far as you are aware... is wrong.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 2:14pm

I was baptised catholic and half my family are irish catholics

I was educated in an anglican school and some of my closest friends are christians belonging to different churches

I have heard these views expressed in all situations above

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 2:28pm

How is this relevant again? No-one is asking the Jews to marry Palestinians, or vice versa.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 2:32pm

Then you have friends with very narrow upbringings or ideas, because no Christian church can prevent you from marrying outside it and none that I know of demand you marry within it.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Gaybriel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:01pm

it's not about prevention or demand- it's about basic beliefs. which is that if everyone in the world belonged to the same religion (the religion that whomever is saying this belongs to) then the world would be a better place as consequence of everyone following the 'path of god'

in which case it is not strange in any religion for people to be encouraged to marry within that religion

my point is that religions that do encourage this are not abnormal, nor are they engaging in some sort of conspiracy to rule the world- not in the dr evil sense

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:23pm

oooh that sounds very Islamic... a one religion world.

How about you list for me all churches that demand you only marry from within the church. Because that IS what it's about.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:30pm

gaybriel - your comments are MILES offthread.

there is only one religion that desires for control of the whole world
that's the one you defend in most posts and delete postings about.

you're a poor biased mod, like all other islamic mods

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:32pm

Quote:

The recent military operation in the Gaza Strip against Hamas has restored Israeli's deterrence among its enemies and in the perception of the whole world, Prime Minsiter Ehud Olmert said on Monday.
...
"The lesson was taught which hopefully will change realities," Olmert said. "Those who thought Israel was afraid of using power, would hesitate, and not have the courage now know we will not hesitate to use our force to defend our country."

Olmert added that in light of the bruising military operation, the international community was determined to stop weapons smuggling to the Gaza Strip, and at the same time he voiced the hope that Palestinians living in the Hamas-controlled territory would reject the Islamic regime and soon live in peace with Israel.

"We are not that far away from achieving a full comprehensive peace with the Palestinians," Olmert concluded.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:34pm

tallowood wrote on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:32pm:

Quote:

as popular war advances, peace is closer

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by Grendel on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:37pm

Considering the fact that Hamas has restarted it's weapons smuggling and is rearming i'd say Olmert is a tad optimistic.

good old Hamas... peace in our lifetime... after every single Palestinian is dead.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by tallowood on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 10:35pm

Hamas officials signal willingness to negotiate

Quote:

...
Hamas is trying hard to flex its muscles in the aftermath of Israel's punishing onslaught in the Gaza Strip, doling out cash, vowing revenge and declaring victory over Zionist aggression. But AP interviews with Hamad and two other Hamas leaders in the war-ravaged territory they rule suggest some of that might be more bluster than reality — and the group may be ready for some serious deal making.
...
Hamas' pragmatists may have emerged from Israel's offensive slightly stronger, perhaps because of a perception among some Gazans that the organization's hawks overplayed their hand by provoking the wrath of Israel....

hamass nuts are cracked 8-)

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by soren on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:10pm

Er... UN Admits: IDF Didn't Hit School

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129696

How embarrassment !!

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:14pm

Maybe you should start a new thread with that in the global board. Abu has been posting that claim all over the place. I'd hate for people to be mislead.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by locutius on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:40pm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:34pm:

tallowood wrote on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:32pm:

Quote:

The recent military operation in the Gaza Strip against Hamas has restored Israeli's deterrence among its enemies and in the perception of the whole world, Prime Minsiter Ehud Olmert said on Monday. ...
"The lesson was taught which hopefully will change realities," Olmert said. "Those who thought Israel was afraid of using power, would hesitate, and not have the courage now know we will not hesitate to use our force to defend our country."

Olmert added that in light of the bruising military operation, the international community was determined to stop weapons smuggling to the Gaza Strip, and at the same time he voiced the hope that Palestinians living in the Hamas-controlled territory would reject the Islamic regime and soon live in peace with Israel.

"We are not that far away from achieving a full comprehensive peace with the Palestinians," Olmert concluded.

as popular war advances, peace is closer

The problem is that Isreal have shown again that they will not fully unleash it's war machine in light of world opinion and therefore Hamas still exist. On that pathetic point only could Hamas possibly claim a victory.

It is the type of pause that has not been part successful for the Americans and has not been part of past Isreali victories. They need to stop it now.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:45pm

And replace it with what?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by locutius on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:54pm

Total War.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:56pm

What does that mean exactly?

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by helian on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:58pm

locutius wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:40pm:

Although Olmert has threatened a 'disproportionate' response to the continued attack from Gaza.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by locutius on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:58pm

There is no conditional parley only complete surrender. Like the Germans on WW2 who tried many times to surrender, and it was always rejected because only an unconditional surrender would be accepted.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by locutius on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:48am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:58pm:

locutius wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:40pm:

Although Olmert has threatened a 'disproportionate' response to the continued attack from Gaza.

Yes, that's the ticket.

Title: Re: Hamas claims great victory
Post by freediver on Feb 3^rd, 2009 at 9:56am

locutius wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2009 at 4:58pm:

Didn't I respond to this already?

Did Hitler offer conditional surrender, or was it after Hitler was dead?

Title: Amnesty International: Hamas harmed Palestinians
Post by freediver on Feb 13^th, 2009 at 5:13pm

Amnesty International: Hamas harmed Palestinians

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/02/11/1002926/amnesty-hamas-harmed-palestinians

LONDON (JTA) -- Amnesty International issued a report detailing Hamas violence against Palestinians during Israel’s military operation in the Gaza Strip.

In its report, the human rights organization states that at least two dozen men were shot dead by Hamas gunmen, and many more were kneecapped or otherwise tortured during and after Israel’s military operation. It also confirms media reports that some victims had been executed in hospitals where they were being treated for wounds.

Amnesty International sent a fact-finding team to the Gaza Strip once the cease-fire was in force.

Responding to the report, Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum said, “Maybe some of them were killed because they were acting against the population, against the resistance."

Barhoum added that certain assassinations, like that of the Hamas interior minister, Said Siyam, could not have been carried out without intelligence provided by spies.

However, human rights organizations documented cases of execution and the torture of supporters of Fatah, the party led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

In one such incident detailed in the report, Hamas forces took in for questioning Osama Atallah, a teacher and public supporter of Fatah. The following day a local hospital called his family to say he was in critical condition. He later died.

Fatah officials said Atallah was punished "because of his public and continued criticism of the performance of the Hamas militias in Gaza." They accused Hamas of "severely torturing and then strangling" Atallah.

Hamas officially endorses the killing of collaborators, but denies allegations that it executes political rivals.