The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, the following are highlights.


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"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

and of course we all know that the POTEOZ were fakes.

Do not Australians believe Australia is for Australians and no part of it should be ceded to any foreign entity? Do they also not believe in employing their military to repel and expel any foreign entity that attempts to invade and/or occupy Australia?

Is this really that strange a charter?

Don't all peoples of the world wish for their lands to be safe from outside aggression, occupation and invasion??

Although you've attempted to frame this in a certain unfavourable light, the clear fact is that it's just a normal aspiration of all peoples. Apparently though Muslims aren't deserving of the same basic fundamental rights and aspirations as others...

Oh right I forgot...  we are expected to forget that Jews exist and Hebrews and Israelites existed etc, etc, etc...  they never occupied lands in the mandate did they.  How remiss of me to expect they should be allowed to have some land allocated too them as well.

Need I remind you yet again that arabs already posess 75% of the mandate?

Who is framing what how?

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

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Oh right I forgot...  we are expected to forget that Jews exist and Hebrews and Israelites existed etc, etc, etc...  they never occupied lands in the mandate did they.  How remiss of me to expect they should be allowed to have some land allocated too them as well.

Isn't that like saying that the aboriginal people have the right to reclaim all of Australia as their own because they were the original inhabitants.

Were the jews the original inhabitants of Israel?  I thought there was someone else there before they were - what how long ago - a couple of thousand years?

In the case of the aborigines - it's only been 200 years - they would be entitled to more of a claim than the Jews surely.  But then aborigines are only second class citizens - they are not clever like the Israelites and don't have the backing of the superpowers.

Life is unfair to certain groups of people - but it has always been the survival of the strongest.

The Hamas expansion plan sounds a bit like the plan the Chinese have for the Western world.

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Oh right I forgot...  we are expected to forget that Jews exist and Hebrews and Israelites existed etc, etc, etc...

The vast majority of Israelis (probably about 99%) have no traceable link to the land, prior to the Zionist invasion.


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they never occupied lands in the mandate did they

Prior to the mandate they were less than 2% of the population, and owned negligable quantities of land, as private citizens, not as a state. What you're effectively saying is that Lebanese Muslims who own houses and flats in Lakemba form some basis for the creation of an Islamic state because they own land.. It's just ludicrous, and you know for a surety you'd never agree to any of this  garbage you continue to spew out, if it were reversed on you.


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How remiss of me to expect they should be allowed to have some land allocated too them as well

Do you agree Muslims in Australia should have about 50% of the land of Australia allocated to them, so they can form an Islamic state? If you do, then I'll concede your point.


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Need I remind you yet again that arabs already posess 75% of the mandate?

Do Arabs posses it? Or Jordanians? As far as I'm aware, Iraqis, Saudis, Egyptians, Morrocans etc. don't possess a square inch of it, yet all are Arabs. You are mixing terminology to try and forge for yourself some semblance of an argument, which is pathetic at best.

Again turn the tables, if Australia were made a mandate and 75% of it were given to "Anglos" (Let's say WA, SA, NT & Qld) and the rest were turned into an Islamic state... would this be palatable to you?

Would you then accept the same pathetic argument from someone else, that Anglos got 75% of the mandate, so they should stop whinging?? what would you say to those Anglos in NSW, Victoria who got herded into refugee camps? Bad luck? You got 75% and you still want more???

Don't expect others to sit down and accept what you know full well you wouldn't accept for yourself. To do so is the epitomy of hypocrisy.

Muslims are less than a 2% minority in Australia, and have taken absolutely no practical steps whatsoever to turn it into an Islamic state and displace Anglos, yet you're already just as hostile to Muslims as the Palestinians are to the Jews, imagine when we take 50% of the land and herd you into refugee camps.. I think you'll be doing a lot more than lobbing a few home made rockets at us.

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Prior to the mandate they were less than 2% of the population, and owned negligable quantities of land, as private citizens, not as a state. What you're effectively saying is that Lebanese Muslims who own houses and flats in Lakemba form some basis for the creation of an Islamic state because they own land.. It's just ludicrous, and you know for a surety you'd never agree to any of this  garbage you continue to spew out, if it were reversed on you.

No the proper analogy would be if Australians decided to kill Arabs in Lakemba to the point where the UN had to step in and create a safe haven for them. If the Arabs didnt decide to exterminate Jewish immigrants as a first step, none of the remainder of the problems would have occurred.

The Arabs are the authors of their own misfortune.

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No the proper analogy would be if Australians decided to kill Arabs in Lakemba to the point where the UN had to step in and create a safe haven for them. If the Arabs didnt decide to exterminate Jewish immigrants as a first step, none of the remainder of the problems would have occurred

We could use that as an analogy if you like, but make it accurate. If illegal Muslim immigrants started mass immigrating and saturating the population so that it grew from 2% to 40% and were writings books specifically about turning out Anglos and turning Australia into an Islamic state and forming militias (remember the Irgun? The Stern Gang??) to bring it to fruition, and bombing hotels and stuff (King David Hotel anyone??)... then it might be a bit closer to the real events....

Would you accept that? Would you gladly submit yourself to an Islamic state created in such a manner? If you can just answer yes, then I'll start to see things a little clearer from your viewpoint. If you cannot, then it's probably better for you to back out of this discussion now, with what little credibility you have intact.

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The Arabs are the authors of their own misfortune.

No Calananen - we are the authors of their misfortune through the greed of the western governments and corporations stealing their resources through war and occupation.

Why the hell didn't we leave the Middle East alone?  There was no threat of us being invaded, but we wanted everything they had.  The US & their allies see something they want, bomb the place to bits, steal the resources and then pretend they are bringing democracy and peace to a country by half heartedly trying to patch it up again.  

Then we expect them to be grateful.

here are some facts for you abu



1. Israel became a state in 1312 B.C., two millennia before Islam.

2. Arab refugees from Israel began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1967, two decades after modern Israeli statehood.

3. After conquering the land in 1272 B.C., Jews ruled it for a thousand years and maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years.

4. The only Arab rule following Muslim conquest in 633 A.D. lasted just 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem was the Jewish capital. It was never the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even under Jordanian rule, (East) Jerusalem was not made the capital, and no Arab leader came to visit it.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Bible, but not once is it mentioned in the Koran.

7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem, Muslims pray facing Mecca. If Muslims are between these two cities, Muslims pray facing Mecca with their backs to Jerusalem.

8. Kind David founded Jerusalem, Mohammed never set foot in it.

9. In 1948 Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of any Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

10. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

11. Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries.

12. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of the millions of refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their fellow Muslims. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

13. There are 22 Muslim countries, not counting Palestine. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

14. The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel ceded most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even provided it with arms.

15. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths.

16. Out of 175 United Nations security council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel. Out of 690 General Assembly resolutions, 429 were against Israel.

17. The U.N. was silent when the Jordanians destroyed 58 Synagogues in the Old City of Jerusalem. It remained silent while Jordan systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives, and it remained silent when Jordan enforced apartheid laws preventing Jews from accessing the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Whilst those facts may be true, they might not be in context.

For example, with no2, why would the Arabs decide to flee Israel, and call themselves Palestinians rather than Israeli?

Put it in context. Facts without background information can make the imagination go off on the wrong tangent.

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Why the hell didn't we leave the Middle East alone?  There was no threat of us being invaded, but we wanted everything they had.  The US & their allies see something they want, bomb the place to bits, steal the resources and then pretend they are bringing democracy and peace to a country by half heartedly trying to patch it up again.

If anyone steals their resources its the Saudi and Kuwaiti sheikhs. Everyone else including the West, has to pay full freight for it. Where is this free oil we have stolen? It's not in any petrol bowser I have access to.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 1^st, 2009 at 11:14am:

12. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of the millions of refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their fellow Muslims. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

Gee Sprint, you could have at least Austrlianised it - a country only one quarter the size of Tasmania.

Honestly a couple of you spout absolute rubbish...

How about ignoring the usual Muslim deflection and addressing the original post.

Hamas is a scheduled terrorist organisation in this country. That's all I need to know.

Supporting Hamas is a crime. They should have arrested those bozos that had Hamas flags the other day. Not that our numpty Police would know what a Hamas flag is, or a Hizbolah flag.

calanen - that's about the size of it.

easel,


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Whilst those facts may be true, they might not be in context.

They're neither true nor in context, let's dissect them a little:


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1. Israel became a state in 1312 B.C., two millennia before Islam.

The modern day state of Israel has absolutely no connection whatsoever with that state. Anymore than modern day Greece does with ancient Greece or modern day Egypt does with Phaoronic Egypt. The name is meaningless.


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2. Arab refugees from Israel began calling themselves "Palestinians" in 1967, two decades after modern Israeli statehood.

The word Falasteeni (Arabic for Palestinian) first originated from the time of the earliest Caliphs of Islam. During the reign of Omar Bin al-Khattab (May God be pleased with him) the area of Palestine came under Islamic rule and was called 'Jund Falasteen'. The name was taken as a direct transliteration from the Roman/Latin Palestina. The Arabs of the mandate began calling themselves Palestinians during the British mandate period, when ideas of Arab independance were being hammered out. This is no different from Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis etc. all of who didn't exist under this name prior to the British dismantling of the Ottoman empire, those were names of geogrpahic regions, not of nations. Or Kuwaitis for instance, who never existed until about 1970....

This has gotta be the biggest 'moot' point that any goose has ever tried scoring. It's like if Australia came under a mandate, and the people of Gippsland were said to be non-Existent prior to the mandate, because there was never any people calling themselves Gippslanders prior to the mandate, therefore Muslims have more right to Gippsland than them... What a load of crap.

So did the people exist? Perhaps in sprints warped little mind they didn't. After all the Zionists of  the time claimed it was "A land without a people for a people without a land". Did their homes exist? Did their governments and mosques and endowments and farms etc. all exist? Or was it all just a figment of our imagination? Are those millions of Arabs in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc. just really Lebanese, Syrians and Jordanians who had nothing better to do than check themselves into the luxury of a refugee camp?

Many different evidences can be brought to show the Arabs of the region began referring to themselves as Palestinians long before 1967, such as the Office of Grand Mufti of al-Quds (Jerusalem) being changed to "Office of the Grand Mufti of Palestine" in the 1920's, but all of it is irrelevant anyway, as people's claims to their homes, land and farms have nothing to with a name. Whether they choose to call themselves Palestinians, Jerusalemites, Canaanites or Eskimoes really means nothing whatsoever, nor does it change their situation or their rights to their land, homes and farms. The choosing of the name for their land was arbitrary, as was the choosing of the names for Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.


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3. After conquering the land in 1272 B.C., Jews ruled it for a thousand years and maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years.

The Jews were completely expelled several times since 1200 BC. However, in 75 C.E though the last Jews were completely expelled after the siege of Masada, and no Jews remained in Palestine. In the 7th. century when the Muslims took Palestine from the Byzantines, they signed an agreement, at the behest of the Christian Byzantines that they would not allow any Jews into the land. This situation lasted until close to the end of the 19th. century when the Ottoman Islamic Caliphate began declining and Jews began illegally immigrating. The situation further deteriorated when the British took over and allowed hundreds of thousands of Jews in.

So in fact Jews have spent 2000 of the last 3000 years out of Palestine, not in it as sprint falsely claims. And even during the 1000 years they were there, it was not unbroken, they came and left so many timess, sometimes forcefully, sometimes voluntarily (read the Bible).


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4. The only Arab rule following Muslim conquest in 633 A.D. lasted just 22 years.

Firstly, I couldn't care less about Arab or not Arab. It is a Muslim land, and it has been ruled by Muslims for the past 1350 years (with the short exception of the Crusader occupation, which was only of the major cities anyway). The ethnicity of the ruler himself is completely irrelevant.

But even if we go with the ethnic Arab idea, Palestine was under Arab rule from the conquest of Caliph Omar Bin al-Khattab (638) until the Crusades (1099), so that's 461 years, not 22. Looks like sprint needs some maths lessons.


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5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem was the Jewish capital. It was never the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even under Jordanian rule, (East) Jerusalem was not made the capital, and no Arab leader came to visit it.

What a load of CRAP.! The Assyrians took Palestine in about 720 B.C and from then on was merely a province of the Persians, Greeks then Romans. Around the time of Jesus (pbuh) there were a few independance movements and revolts but in the mid 1st. century they were completely quelled and Jerusalem was completely flattened and renamed Aelia Capitolina (by the Romans) and has since that time not been the capital of the Jews, until this day.

Also the fact it was not a capital of a Muslim state is absolutely irrelevant. Sydney has never bee the capital of Australia either..

Well just stop claiming that palestinians(arabs?Islam?) have some divine right to Israel.
Admit that they lost their land, as has happened through colonisation or war, countless times throughout history, to people all over the world, and declare war, and demand a fight to the death.
I will send flowers.

Or alternatively, build a bridge and get over it.

As Grendel implied, Hamas are a bunch of zealot Islamist terrorists, freedom fighters?, only in the minds of the deluded, who do not recognise their Islamist agenda, as a push towards Islam, and we all know what a repressive regime that is.
Freedom under Islam, is no sort of freedom that I would want.

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6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Bible, but not once is it mentioned in the Koran.

Well that settles it then. If it's mentioned 700 times, then every Palestinian should get up and leave.

Masjid al-Aqsa is mentioned in the Qur'an, which is in Jerusalem. Also Jerusalem is mentioned hundreds of times in the Hadiths. So again, another irrelevant point. Only useful to someone who can deceive people into thinking the Qur'an is the only holy text of Islam.


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7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem, Muslims pray facing Mecca. If Muslims are between these two cities, Muslims pray facing Mecca with their backs to Jerusalem.

Muslims originally also prayed facing Jerusalem, but changed to Makkah later. But again, another moot point. We also don't face Cairo, Baghdad, Istanbul or Islamabad, but that doesn't mean Muslims there have no right to their homes, does it?


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8. Kind David founded Jerusalem, Mohammed never set foot in it.

Likewise Jesus (pbuh) never set foot in Australia, therefore Muslims can take over Australia....?

These arguments are just ridiculous.


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9. In 1948 Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of any Jewish presence. 68% of them fled without ever setting eyes on an Israeli soldier.

The Arab leaders were working in conjunction with the British and the Zionists, so that's not surprising they urged the Palestinians to leave. Interesting to know where the 68% figure comes from? Even Jewish historians have documented how most of those Arabs who fled, did so at gunpoint. Even if they didn't, after hearing about the massacres in other villages, is enough reason for them to flee. Civilians have a right to flee war do they not? Or does that justify taking their homes does it? What kind off twisted logic is that?


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10. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

They did not flee until about 20-30 years after the commencement of the occupation. When Jews began massive military operations against the Palestinian civilians. Also note that they'd lived for well over a thousand or more years in those Arab lands without a problem....


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11. Some 630,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while close to a million Jews were forced to leave the Muslim countries.

Most Jews left voluntarily, most Palestinians fled armies or were deported. For instance most of those Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria were deported forcefully AFTER the occupation, even up until the 1980's they were still being rounded up and deported they did not flee during the initial occupation.


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12. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of the millions of refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their fellow Muslims. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

That's irrelevant to the occupation of Palestine. Arab regimes do a lot of stuff wrong, and have about as much legitimacy as Israel in the eyes of most Muslims. Doesn't change a thing about the usurping of Palestine by the Zionists.


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13. There are 22 Muslim countries, not counting Palestine. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

Actually there's a lot more than 22 Muslim countries. Means nothing. There's also about 1000 times more Muslims in the world than there is Jews...

Again, you need some maths lessons sprint.

As for the wars, the Arab armies were all trained by the British and French, the wars were a farce to convince the Arab populations that Israel was there to stay. The Jordanian army, the largest, was in fact commanded by a British intelligence officer.... The wars were just for show.


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14. The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel ceded most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even provided it with arms.

As any country would call for the destruction of a foreign state formed inside their land... Doesn't that go without saying?

As for what Israel was willing to 'let' the Palestinians have of their own land, it was token control of less than half of the land of the West Bank, and Gaza has been under complete blockade since it was withdrawn from...


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15. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths.

Plenty of mosques have been converted into Jewish places of worship, the Tomb of Joseph is a classic example we've already discussed. Also Masjid al-Aqsa has been damaged and Muslims are routinely prevented from praying there.


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16. Out of 175 United Nations security council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel. Out of 690 General Assembly resolutions, 429 were against Israel.

Yeh and pretty much all of them were vetoed by the US....

This begs more questions than it answers.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:19am:

Well just stop claiming that palestinians(arabs?Islam?) have some divine right to Israel. Admit that they lost their land, as has happened through colonisation or war, countless times throughout history, to people all over the world, and declare war, and demand a fight to the death. I will send flowers. Or alternatively, build a bridge and get over it. As Grendel implied, Hamas are a bunch of zealot Islamist terrorists, freedom fighters?, only in the minds of the deluded, who do not recognise their Islamist agenda, as a push towards Islam, and we all know what a repressive regime that is. Freedom under Islam, is no sort of freedom that I would want.

so we lament the dispossession/oppression of indigenous peoples in history and think 'if only we had more wisdom not to have done these things'- yet we see the same injustice now and are just sposed to say "oh well, it's happened to other people- get over it"?

how is that justice? because it has happened to others, that means that it is ok for it to happen again?

not to mention that it's not just about territory that has been taken over- it's about the territory that continues to be taken over. it's about the way israelis are basically trying to ethnically cleanse palestinians out of existence.

it's about the fact that we see this injustice, and yet so many people side with the oppressor, that they blame the victim for fighting back.

If they were not lobbing rockets at them, and sending in suicide bombers, you may have some case Gaybriel.
But they do, so you don't.

Israelis have a right to security and peace, and if a neighbour threatens that, then expect to be stopped, especially if the people refuse to stop of their own accord.

You cannot divorce this from Islamists, anti jewish, anti Israel, philosophy, as long as that exists, they will be a threat that has to be dealt with.

If they were peaceful neighbours, the world would stand up for them, but as Grendel showed in his opening post, they are clearly influenced by terrorists, and that is unacceptable to the non muslim, civilised world.

Just another point I noted:


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8. Kind David founded Jerusalem...

You don't seem to know your own Bible very well at all. King David (pbuh) didn't found Jerusalem at all. The city has a history which goes back over 6000 years, long before the time of King David (pbuh), if you read your Bible a little more diligently, you'll see where the Jews conquered the city and who they conquered it from.

mod: pointless, off topic and inflammatory

I'm gonna have to read at least 3 versions of the Bible cover to cover chronologically, not one after the other, to get better informed on the lesser acknowledged history of the region, and then combine that with modern day historical interpretations. Maybe even a Qu'ran. What are the best translations of that book?

Talmud is just the OT, so I can leave that, have copies of that already.

I do know though, that I do not agree with what has happened there in recent history in regards to Palestinian suffering. I also don't wish to see Islamic global domination and oppression of other religions, which, I have been led to believe (perhaps incorrectly), is an inherent part of their doctrine.

Christians, Jews and Muslims should get familiar with each others texts and the history of them, and the history of the region of the world that causes so much conflict, before they start using fighting words.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:36am:

If they were not lobbing rockets at them, and sending in suicide bombers, you may have some case Gaybriel. But they do, so you don't. Israelis have a right to security and peace, and if a neighbour threatens that, then expect to be stopped, especially if the people refuse to stop of their own accord. You cannot divorce this from Islamists, anti jewish, anti Israel, philosophy, as long as that exists, they will be a threat that has to be dealt with. If they were peaceful neighbours, the world would stand up for them, but as Grendel showed in his opening post, they are clearly influenced by terrorists, and that is unacceptable to the non muslim, civilised world.

The number of anti-Israel/USA people I meet are definitely not represented in the polls/parliament.

I can hardly condone much the newspapers/media tell me Israel do (which might be misleading), in regards to 20/21st century history.

mozzaok,


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Admit that they lost their land, as has happened through colonisation or war, countless times throughout history, to people all over the world, and declare war, and demand a fight to the death

But they didn't lose it. They're still there fighting, and will continue to do so until it is liberated. The Crusaders occupied it for twice as long as the Jews have so far, and they were also expelled. And the Muslims were in quite a decline then as well. If you think Muslims will ever relinquish Palestine, then you're really underestimating our determination.

Likewise if it happens to you, and Australia is overrun by others, then I hope you're good at taking your own advice.


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Israelis have a right to security and peace

Why do occupiers have a right to security and peace in the land they are occupying? They have no right to anything. They are there purely as a military occupation force, and therefore have no right except those given by the law of the force by which they exist. They exist by military force, and they're subject to it.


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and if a neighbour threatens that,

Palestinians are not neighbours. It is their land, they are victims trodden underfoot by the machines of occupation. They are not a neighbouring country, they are civilians herded into big refugee camps and constantly bombed, shot at, blockaded etc.

Your view of the whole situation is really quite skewed.

The part I dislike about the whole thing is when a British politician said setting up a Jewish state would be like making an Ulster in the Middle East, and then went ahead with it.

When the British had a long history of oppression towards the inhabitants of that region, and uprisings against their occupation, makes you wonder why they would want to make another situation like that.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:36am:

If they were not lobbing rockets at them, and sending in suicide bombers, you may have some case Gaybriel. But they do, so you don't.

ah I see- so when indigneous australians fought back against the settlers they deserved everything launched back at them? despite the fact they were defending their land, lifestyle and lives?


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If they were peaceful neighbours, the world would stand up for them, but as Grendel showed in his opening post, they are clearly influenced by terrorists, and that is unacceptable to the non muslim, civilised world.

ah so they should peacefully accept annihilation should they?

easel,


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I'm gonna have to read at least 3 versions of the Bible cover to cover chronologically

Not really, just goto an online Bible search site, and look up Jerusalem.


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Maybe even a Qu'ran. What are the best translations of that book?

Not really, the Qur'an doesn't talk a lot about Jerusalem. In most mentions of the Children of Israel the setting is Egypt.

As far as English translations go, I prefer Marmeduke Pickthall's, mostly because he's a native English speaker, and his English is therefore much more refined than non-native english speakers.


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Talmud is just the OT

Wrong, completely different book. The OT, in Hebrew is called Tanakh (which is actually an acronym), Talmud is basically a codification of the Tanakh, along with rulings by Rabbis and some extra oral traditions.


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which, I have been led to believe (perhaps incorrectly), is an inherent part of their doctrine.

Islam is no more about domination than any other ideology/civilisation is. Of course nobody wants to be dominated, we want to dominate, doesn't that go without saying? Some ideologies/civilisations might pretend they don't believe in it, they're the ones you really should be careful of. However, that doesn't mean Muslims are out to enslave everyone, just means we're going to hold our own. Muhammad (pbuh) said: The upper hand is better than the lower hand. Quite wise advice if you ask me.


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Christians, Jews and Muslims should get familiar with each others texts and the history of them, and the history of the region of the world that causes so much conflict, before they start using fighting words.

Gotta agree with you there, very sound advice.

lol forever the muslim retort...  what about the aboriginals...

ah yes a stoneage people vs a "civilised/modern" people hmmm  I guess thats an appropriate comparison.

Gotta love this jewel...
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Islam is no more about domination than any other ideology/civilisation is. Of course nobody wants to be dominated, we want to dominate, doesn't that go without saying?

AH YES IT DOES....  YOU WANT TO DOMINATE.  
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Some ideologies/civilisations might pretend they don't believe in it, they're the ones you really should be careful of. However, that doesn't mean Muslims are out to enslave everyone, just means we're going to hold our own.

 SO YOU DON'T WANT TO DOMINATE?  
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Muhammad (pbuh) said: The upper hand is better than the lower hand. Quite wise advice if you ask me.

 SO YOU DO WANT TO DOMINATE...  BETTER TO BE CAREFUL OF THOSE WHO CANT GIVE A STRAIGHT ANSWER IF YOU ASK ME.

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If you think Muslims will ever relinquish Palestine, then you're really underestimating our determination.

LOL. Put a keffiyeh on your head and then whiteboy is a genuine Palestinian freedom fighter. As an audience member at the Oprah show might say 'You go girl!'

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As Grendel implied, Hamas are a bunch of zealot Islamist terrorists, freedom fighters?, only in the minds of the deluded, who do not recognise their Islamist agenda, as a push towards Islam, and we all know what a repressive regime that is. Freedom under Islam, is no sort of freedom that I would want.

Why wouldn't Hamas be zealot freedom fighters?  It is only our media who tell us they are terrorists.  Who controls much of the media - Murdoch.  Isn't he Jewish?  Hasn't he got a cause?

I don't think it is solely about Islamic rule, although most Muslims have a common cause, but many of them are moderates and only want peace - like most of us.  I don't know a lot about Hamas, aside from the propaganda we are constantly fed, but they support the Palestinian people and are trying to do what is in their best interest.  It is their people they represent, not ours or Israels.

Why wouldn't most Palestinian citizens get behind Hamas?  Israel has been occupied for only 60 years and they have needed the support of  Bush & associates to survive.  The neocons are on their last legs and this new generation doesn't share the views of their parents.  The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values.  Israel may not have the support it used to have.

Grendel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 4:49am:

lol forever the muslim retort...  what about the aboriginals... ah yes a stoneage people vs a "civilised/modern" people hmmm  I guess thats an appropriate comparison.

it is an appropriate comparison as we're discussing the dispossession of people's from their land and the reaction of the indigenous peoples to that dispossession

you trying to dismiss it as a 'typical response' doesn't make the comparison any less valid

I'm sorry but the jews are indigenous to the mandate of palestine too.

An area of which over 75% is now occupied by arabs.

Quote:

The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values.  Israel may not have the support it used to have.

Actually I believe the opposite to be more likely Mantra, at least in respect to Islam.
Many liberal, left wing leaning people, such as myself, have previously sided against Israel, in favour of the palestinians, but with the rise of Islamist extremism, we have come to empathise with just what sort of crazy fanatics the Israelis are trying to deal with, and can see how limited their options are.

We are not talking about dealing with normal peace loving people, we are talking about religious extremists, who have an open agenda of terrorism and eradication of jews from the middle east.

So, the palestinians can blame Islam for turning liberals and moderates who previously had sympathy for them, into pragmatists who recognise that you cannot deal reasonably, with a people who operate outside of reason.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:48am:

If you think Muslims will ever relinquish Palestine, then you're really underestimating our determination.

Well, then, my assessment is confirmed.



Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2009 at 10:22am:

The Arabs are motivated by religion, Islam, and not land or patriotism.

I especially like "our determination". You are like a man swaggering down the street with somebody else's lunchbox down his pants. But at least you have confirmed that it is about your religion, Islam.

Thank you linesmen, than you ball boys.

mantra wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:05pm:

Why wouldn't Hamas be zealot freedom fighters?  It is only our media who tell us they are terrorists.  Who controls much of the media - Murdoch.  Isn't he Jewish?  Hasn't he got a cause?

His mother was Jewish. He isnt. He was made a Papal Knight by the Vatican.

Firing rockets into civilian areas, deliberately targetting Israeli civilians, is not being a freedom fighter. Blowing up buses is not being a freedom fighter. Its just being a scumbag terrorist.

I don't think it is solely about Islamic rule, although most Muslims have a common cause, but many of them are moderates and only want peace - like most of us.  


Quote:

I don't know a lot about Hamas, aside from the propaganda we are constantly fed, but they support the Palestinian people and are trying to do what is in their best interest.  It is their people they represent, not ours or Israels.

How about their own propaganda?


Quote:

Following are excerpts from footage of Hamas female martyrdom-seekers in Gaza, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on December 30, 2008. Masked woman clad in explosives belt: I, the martyrdom-seeker Umm Suheib, have dedicated myself for the sake of Allah, and for the sake of redeeming my family, from which I have lost eight martyrs so far. I swear by Allah that I will turn my body parts into a fire that will burn the occupation soldiers, if they move towards my house. My beloved people, if Allah supports you, no one will be able to overcome you. We are confident of the support of Allah. There are thousands of martyrdom-seeking women like me, waiting for the occupier, in order to avenge these massacres. I pledge to my people that I will continue on the path of my family, and avenge the widows and the orphans. My people on the front-line, do not wait for any Arab president or king, but direct your appeal to Allah, the King of Kings. We are loyal to our oath, and will meet, Allah willing, in the paradise of eternity.

Quote:

Masked woman holding rifle: Allah said: “Prepare against them what force and steeds of war you can, to strike terror in the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your own enemies.” We convey this message to the Israeli army high command, which bombards our sons day and night: We, the martyrdom-seeking women of Palestine, mothers as well as girls, are waiting impatiently for them to come. Allah willing, we will make them taste bitterness, if they move even an inch into our beloved Gaza Strip. I am the mother of two martyrs, and I will sacrifice myself as a martyr, Allah willing. I will turn my blood into bombs that will burn them. In every Palestinian home, a time bomb will await them. There will be days of battle between us, and this will be our opportunity to avenge our sons whom they have bombed, and the blood of the 400 martyrs who were killed in the headquarters. I am waiting for them. My honorable people, have more forbearance and steadfastness. Your daughters march by your side on the path of Jihad and martyrdom. Second masked woman holding a rifle: If one of our men dies, a thousand men will set out in his place. We, the women, will set out. We are the granddaughters of Yassin, Al-Bana, and Al-Qassam. We are all the daughters of Palestine, the daughters of steadfast Gaza. We will set out, booby-trapped. From every home, a bomb will set out, and it will explode among the sons of Zion. We are no less than Fatima Al-Najjar and Rim Al-Riyashi [two Palestinian women who blew themselves up among Israelis]. We will blow ourselves up among those traitors, those apes and pigs.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1966.htm?auth=66b1e75fe8c775e9eb275f06ff252bb6



Quote:

Israel may not have the support it used to have

Only amongst the moonbats. The silent majority think Israel is far more sane than these Hamas and Hizbollah nutjobs. You think you have the majority view because you are loudest. But the silent majority thinks you are crackers.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 7:09pm:

Quote: The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values.  Israel may not have the support it used to have. Actually I believe the opposite to be more likely Mantra, at least in respect to Islam. Many liberal, left wing leaning people, such as myself, have previously sided against Israel, in favour of the palestinians, but with the rise of Islamist extremism, we have come to empathise with just what sort of crazy fanatics the Israelis are trying to deal with, and can see how limited their options are. We are not talking about dealing with normal peace loving people, we are talking about religious extremists, who have an open agenda of terrorism and eradication of jews from the middle east. So, the palestinians can blame Islam for turning liberals and moderates who previously had sympathy for them, into pragmatists who recognise that you cannot deal reasonably, with a people who operate outside of reason.

I think there is a lot of truth in this.
I certainly think that the time of reflexive genuflection to islamic sensibilities is over, there is going to be a lot more 'hang on a minute, sport' when talking to Musulmans and there is going to be a lot more irreverence and piss-take, someething I particularly look forward to, when they insist on dwelling in their particular castles in the air.

mantra wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 12:05pm:

The Bush presidency has ended for good and there are going to be a whole set of new global values.  Israel may not have the support it used to have.

I don’t think we’ll ever live to see an American President or an Italian President or a British Prime Minister or a German or Austrian Chancellor or a Pope or any other western leader weakening their support for Israel outside of empty lip service. It could never be backed by force, neither military nor economic, at least not now nor probably within the next 100 years.

The idea of western soldiers shooting or starving Jews would evoke a certain collective memory of absolute evil.

Grendel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 6:35pm:

I'm sorry but the jews are indigenous to the mandate of palestine too. An area of which over 75% is now occupied by arabs.

And indeed the people of the Jewish faith have been spread throughout the Middle East for centuries but in recent times there seems to have been very significant "cleansing" of Jews from areas that have become dominated by Islam.

Below is a short summary of what has happened.

This article has come from the site www.worldaffairsboard.com

The people on that site are from all over the world and are generally very articulate.
They also include some Muslims and I am sure they would love to have Abu as a new chew toy.

Mods, If linking to an article on another site is not permitted in the rules, sorry and please delete.


Some things to remember
The Arab (non-Jewish) population of Israel is on the rise, now 20%.


Of the traditional lands inhabited in part by Jews in Arabia/Persia.

The Jewish population of Lebanon: 1948 20,000 - 2008 fewer than 100

The Jewish population of Iraq: 1948 150,000 - 2004: Approximately 351

The Jewish population of Iran: 1948 100,000 - 2004: ~25,000

The Jewish population of Egpyt: 1948 75,000 - 2004: Less than 100

The Jewish population of Syria: 1948 30,000 - 2003: Fewer than 100

Jordan. No Jews are recognised as living in Jordan. No Jews are allowed to own property in Jordan nor hold Jordanian citizenship.

Saudi Arabia. Same as Jordan except Judaism the religion is strictly forbidden.

Oman. No Jews are known to live in Oman.

UAE. Unknown. Practice of Judaism is forbidden, as is entry to the UAE by Israeli citizens or citizens of any country who have 1: an Israeli stamp on their passport and 2: Jew listed as their religion on their passport.

Lebanon: 10,230 SQ KM
Israel: 20,330 SQ KM
Jordan: 91,971 SQ KM
Syria: 184,050 SQ KM
Iraq: 432,162 SQ KM
Egypt: 995,450 SQ KM
Iran: 1.636 Million SQ KM
Saudi Arabia: 2,149,690 SQ KM
total land area 5,540,213 SQ KM

Israel comprises roughly .37% of the total land mass that Jews inhabited historically.



Egypt ruled the Gaza strip from 1948 to 1967 but now refuses to control it, usually keeping its border sealed.

Neither Israel nor the rest of the international community recognises Gaza as Israeli territory.

While the Gaza strip is not recognized internationally as a sovereign state, it holds it's own elections and provides it's own laws and law enforcement officers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Parihaka; Today at 03:38 AM.

Quote:

Israel may not have the support it used to have Only amongst the moonbats. The silent majority think Israel is far more sane than these Hamas and Hizbollah nutjobs. You think you have the majority view because you are loudest. But the silent majority thinks you are crackers.

I wouldn't be too sure of that Calanen.  How do you know what the silent majority thinks?  

Hamas & Hizbollah are not nutjobs to the Muslims and Israel is surrounded by them.  You saw the comment by Abu "If you think Muslims will ever relinquish Palestine, then you're really underestimating our determination".   I believe that without a doubt eventually Israel will be reclaimed or at least shared fairly with the Palestinians. The Muslim population is on the increase and they are angry - far angrier than we are.

America has always supported Israel, more so than any other western nation.  Their resources are running dry and their troops burnt out.  There is new leadership and there will also be leadership changes in other nations who have previously supported Israel.  Views are changing amongst our young who don't share the same hatred for Islam as our generation does.

Good grief...  ignorant and a conspiraphile now mantra?  how sad.
The Palestinians already have most of the WestBank and Gaza.  They are parts of Israel for all intents and purposes.  Jordan is 75% of what was Palestine.  Arabs populate that already.

I already provided a solution...  but lunatics in the ME will never agree to it.

Quote:

Good grief...  ignorant and a conspiraphile now mantra how sad.

The same could be said for half the people on this forum Grendel, including you at times.


Quote:

The Palestinians already have most of the WestBank and Gaza.  They are parts of Israel for all intents and purposes.  Jordan is 75% of what was Palestine.  Arabs populate that already. I already provided a solution...  but lunatics in the ME will never agree to it.

What solution - where?  Provide a link to your solution, rather than me having to search through 50 threads to find it.

The Arabs are fed propaganda - we are fed propaganda. Who is right in this whole argument?

Why is everyone's recount of history different?

How long has suicide bombing been in existence?  Maybe it only began when the West with their heavy & sophisticated artillery invaded Arab countries and they had no other effective means of retribution.  

Why didn't we leave them alone and let them lead their own lives as they see fit?  Western nations wouldn't have the refugee problem that they do today if the ME were allowed to control their own people under Sharia Law without our interference.

Half the world is in turmoil because of Israel needing our protection.  Why are the Jewish people so much more important than anyone else?

An interesting snippet - perhaps of changes to come in regard to Israel.  There might yet be peace one day.


Obama was monitoring the situation "along with other global events", a spokesman said. Monitoring? It sounded like a line from the Bush school of loose linguistics, where "immediate" and "ceasefire" are coupled to be heard by one audience as an instinctive, human appeal to halt a brutal war, while the meaning conveyed to others is approval to press their attack.

If Israel was to act against Hamas, it needed to move in these last days of the Bush presidency because, despite his words in Sderot, Israel worries that the incoming American president might be less supportive than his predecessor. But does Jerusalem have the nerve to keep it up through Obama's inauguration and the first critical days of an American campaign to reposition itself in the world? On this, the signals are mixed.

Israeli diplomats speculate that their international window for action in Gaza will begin to close as early as Monday when Western officialdom starts to return from the holiday break. A push by Paris for a 48-hour ceasefire offered the hope of some respite for Gaza's 1.5 million people and its chances of implementation are better with the passing of the Bush-Blair trans-Atlantic axis.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/israel-takes-little-comfort-from-obama/2009/01/02/1230681745680.html

OK Mantra, of course most people accept the fact that GWB, was an extreme right wing 'Hawk', and far more likely to condone, or support, aggressive security measures from Israel.
Most would also expect Obama to be more intent on peaceful negotiation, rather than military intervention, but I contend that the Palestinians can also expect, greatly diminished support from the western public, at large.

Personally, I think this is because of the growing recognition of Islamism, as a significant global threat, and because of the Palestinian links to the most extreme Islamists.

I agree that many Palestinians may feel as if they have been forced to side with the extremists, even if they are not overly political, or obsessed with the Islamist ideal of Muslim Global Domination, they have chosen to support it, and that will always be totally unacceptable, and must always be taken into consideration, when dealing with them.

So, while we may see some more meaningful attempts at negotiation, from new world leaders, until the Palestinians, distance themselves from the likes of extremist groups like Hamas, then any chance for peaceful resolutions are illusory.

Grendel wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2009 at 10:11pm:

Good grief...  ignorant and a conspiraphile now mantra?  how sad. The Palestinians already have most of the WestBank and Gaza.  They are parts of Israel for all intents and purposes.  Jordan is 75% of what was Palestine.  Arabs populate that already. I already provided a solution...  but lunatics in the ME will never agree to it.

That lady who you like, Pauline Hanson, has publicly stated in the past she believes Port Arthur was a conspiracy/cover up. Don't know where she stands now, but it would appear you support someone who follows some non-mainstream (conspiracy) ideas.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2009 at 9:01am:

OK Mantra, of course most people accept the fact that GWB, was an extreme right wing 'Hawk', and far more likely to condone, or support, aggressive security measures from Israel. Most would also expect Obama to be more intent on peaceful negotiation, rather than military intervention, but I contend that the Palestinians can also expect, greatly diminished support from the western public, at large. Personally, I think this is because of the growing recognition of Islamism, as a significant global threat, and because of the Palestinian links to the most extreme Islamists. I agree that many Palestinians may feel as if they have been forced to side with the extremists, even if they are not overly political, or obsessed with the Islamist ideal of Muslim Global Domination, they have chosen to support it, and that will always be totally unacceptable, and must always be taken into consideration, when dealing with them. So, while we may see some more meaningful attempts at negotiation, from new world leaders, until the Palestinians, distance themselves from the likes of extremist groups like Hamas, then any chance for peaceful resolutions are illusory.

I think you're right. The Palestinian struggle for a homeland has been completely hijacked by Islamic extremists. The only way to bring the West to the Palestinian cause would be a Ghandian non-violent struggle. Whether that is practicable or palatable to the average Palestinian or whether the two causes can even be split, I don't know. But if it could be achieved, their cause would inspire many in the west (and also Israelis) - maybe even more than enough to overwhelm the effect of collective European guilt. I can't imagine any other way to achieve their ends, if indeed the desired end is a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel. If it is the annihilation of the "Zionist Entity", then the cause is lost. This is not like the Crusades. Israel is a nuclear armed state and I have no doubt that if faced with annihilation, those weapons would be used against Arabs and probably even to destroy Islam's holiest sites.

Would worship of a site be considered idolatry in Islamic thought?

Easel...  I was a member of One Nation... NOT the Pauline Hanson fan club.
As for believing in conspiranut stuff...  I don't.

Now do try to stay on topic.

Do you support David Oldfield? You can hear him doing the graveyard shift on radio these days.

I've heard rumours he has publicly lied about past encounters. What have you heard? Is he a liar or does he tell the truth?

I've also heard he worked for Tony Abbott before joining One Nation. Wasn't Abbott responsible for putting Pauline away on trumped up charges?

I agree with a lot that david says.
Knowing him I wouldn't necessarily trust him unless he's changed a bit.
he destroyed ON in NSW.
yes he's on 2GB.
I don't care if he and Hanson had sex or not. Not any of my business.
yes he worked in Abbotts office.
Yes abbott was partly responsible for having 2 people falsely accussed arrested and imprisoned... later they had their convistions completely quashed and were exhonerated.
The qld government and the SEO owe ON $520,000 dollars.

Now can you please stay on target.

Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.

What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.


The whole article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101780.html

(Warning - the author is a Joooo).

easel,


Quote:

Would worship of a site be considered idolatry in Islamic thought?

Of course it is. Worship of ANYTHING other than the one almighty creator is idolatry in Islam.

Then are Mecca and Palestine not considered to be of religious value, and rather of historical value?

Quote:

The Palestinian struggle for a homeland has been completely hijacked by Islamic extremists.

The reason they dont have a homeland is because of the same 'extremists' which are just ordinary muslims. Islam says that the Jews are apes and pigs, and must be killed or live as dhimmis under Islamic overlords.

The exhuberance with which muslims in the BMP attacked Jewish immigrants was what led to the UN dividing up the BMP into the Arab and Jewish states. Not content with being granted their own homeland, the Arabs decided they would exterminate the Jewish land and take that too..and too bad so sad..they lost.

So, the failure of muslims to have their Palestinian homeland, was always because of Islam's insane penchant for killing jews. And so it remains today. The cause has not been 'hijacked' the two were always inextricably linked.

I read that 4 people have died in Israel from more than 500 rockets since the start of this new flare up. Is that accurate or a misrepresentation?

easel,

I can't really follow your line of thinking....

Because worshipping a place is idolatry, therefore Makkah and al-Quds (Jerusalem) have no religious value?? How did you arrive at such conclusions?

I thought all Muslims had to, or were supposed to travel to Makkah (as you spell it), at least once, would that make it worship of a site? I can see how they have historical value, easily, but if you are only supposed to worship God (Allah - if there is only one, same thing), then apart from history, what is the value of the sites, and why do Muslims pray facing Makkah?

Quote:

I thought all Muslims had to, or were supposed to travel to Makkah (as you spell it), at least once

Yes that's right, for the Hajj (pilgrimage). This is a holy visitation. Muslims should also make pilgrimage (holy visitation) to Madinah and al-Quds (Jerusalem) as they are the 3 sacred cities mentioned in the Islamic texts, for which Muslims should make sacred journeys to.


Quote:

would that make it worship of a site?

Definitely not. Anyone who worshipped a place would fall outside of the fold of Islam. We visit these places because of their sacred significance, and to worship God AT them, not to worship the place itself, which would be disbelief.


Quote:

then apart from history, what is the value of the sites, and why do Muslims pray facing Makkah?

The value of the sites is that they are sacred sites. We pray facing Makkah because it is our Qiblah. Qiblah means a common direction of prayer. And before Makkah we used to face al-Quds. Do you think when people face towards a unified direction in prayer, they're worshipping a place?

You know, in Pagan thought, worship towards a site, object, whatever, charges it with energy that can be harnessed/harvested. Is this also the reason why people are not allowed to get in front of Muslims when they are praying?

I don't know.

I recall reading somewhere that Mohammed had Pagan things in the Qu'ran and had them removed.

Quote:

You know, in Pagan thought, worship towards a site, object, whatever, charges it with energy that can be harnessed/harvested.

Good for the pagans. As I said, anyone who worships a place, site, building, statue whatever is outside of Islam and not a Muslim. So it's really quite irrelevant what pagans do.

Do you think Jews worship Jerusalem because they face towards it??


Quote:

Is this also the reason why people are not allowed to get in front of Muslims when they are praying?

Actually it's quite the opposite reason. It's because it's not good to have human figures in front of you when you pray.


Quote:

I recall reading somewhere that Mohammed had Pagan things in the Qu'ran and had them removed.

Yeh in another thread on this forum... Another baseless claim with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Not a single copy of the Qur'an contains such nonsense, and it completely contradicts all history events surrounding the claims. I actually posted the refutation of it in the thread about it.

Either way Islam is pure monotheism, if you wanna claim there's some hidden secret paganism in it, which nobody actually knows about, except the regular anti-Islamic websites of course, and that all Muslims are just duped into thinking they''re monotheists, when in fact they're polytheists without even knowing it. Then about all I can suggest for you easel is that you return back to the fringe board, as that's where your ideas fit in best. no offense :)

Relax I'm just asking questions.

The most unsettling thing is that the Qu'ran appears to be a war doctrine disguised as a religion to many.

Yeh I know it's a big worry isn't it...

I have a good idea easel. How about you bring all the verses from the Qur'an which speak about war/violence, and I'll bring all those from the Bible. And we'll see which one looks more like a violent war doctrine?

How about you provide all those in the New Testament, which is what Christians are supposed to live by, that condone war, killing, slavery, subservience to anything excluding God.

mod: not constructive, won't allow people ganging up on posters

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 5^th, 2009 at 6:45am:

Yeh I know it's a big worry isn't it... I have a good idea easel. How about you bring all the verses from the Qur'an which speak about war/violence, and I'll bring all those from the Bible. And we'll see which one looks more like a violent war doctrine?

How about I bring all the people who violently follow the Bible, today, right now as a violent war doctrine, and I'll bring all the examples of people today, who invoke the Koran for their violence - and we'll see which one looks more like a violent war doctrine?

easel,


Quote:

How about you provide all those in the New Testament, which is what Christians are supposed to live by, that condone war, killing, slavery, subservience to anything excluding God.

So in other words you gotta chop out about 75% of the book for it to be non-violent? Or at least less violent than the Qur'an supposedly is.

Anyway my offer is for Bible vs. Qur'an, take it or leave it. Some anti-Islamists have proposed the Qur'an be banned, and have suggested that just the very content of the Qur'an is what incites Muslims to be violent, if this is the case, then same should ring true for the Bible, and those who teach and promote it.

Calanen,


Quote:

How about I bring all the people who violently follow the Bible...

He said doctrine... doctrine is what's contained in a book, last time I checked, not what people do or don't do. Let's stick with the program here. Thanks.

Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude

After the Mumbai jihad a friend received a letter from someone who works in counter-terrorism. The friend is an apologist for Islam. The counter-terrorism friend poses their dhimmitude (apologies) so skillfully that it is worth countering their arguments.

The argument goes on for a full page. The conclusion is that Islam is not anyone's enemy, but radical Islam is a threat to everyone. The argument does not include a single fact taken from Islamic doctrine. Everything is based upon what some Muslims have told them. In a court of law, such "proof" is called hearsay. In short, the argument can be summarized by: I know some good Muslims; hence, Islam is good.

The background for my argument is the doctrine of Islam. Every Muslim, without exception, will tell you that the Koran is the perfect, complete, universal word of the only god, Allah. The Koran insists that Mohammed is the perfect model, pattern, of behavior for all Muslims. Mohammed's behavior is so important to Islam that it has a special name, Sunna. The Sunna is found in two texts, the Sira (Mohammed's sacred biography) and the Hadith (the sacred traditions of Mohammed). All of Islamic doctrine is based upon three texts: the Koran, the Sira, and the Hadith, the Trilogy.

I will not quote from the letter, but will summarize the points. They are the same points of all the other "experts."

"Moderate Muslims are not silent."

Well, we have to grasp the thick end of the wedge first. What is a "moderate Muslim?" What defines moderate? There are two references for moderation. The counter-terrorism friend's reference is "nice." A moderate is a nice person who won't harm a kafir (an unbeliever).

But we are talking about a Muslim, so the only valid reference for moderation is Islam, not "nice." It is the model of Mohammed who determines what Islam is. So if a Muslim imitates the Sunna of Mohammed, then they are moderate. Sunna is the words and deeds of Mohammed, the perfect pattern for all Muslims. The Koran says over 70 times that all Muslims are to imitate Mohammed in every detail of their life. To that end Islam has an enormous literature about Mohammed in the Sira (his sacred biography) and the Hadith (his sacred traditions).

At this point we meet the main sticking point in understanding the doctrine of Islam. Muslims are to be Mohammedans and follow the Koran. But which Mohammed and which Koran do they follow? Mohammed preached the religion of Islam in Mecca for 13 years and gained 150 followers. In Mecca the Koran is generally religious.

Then Mohammed moved to Medina and became a politician and warrior. In 10 years time he annihilated the Jews of Medina, who were half of the town's citizens. Then he turned to attacking all kafirs. In the last 9 years of his life he was involved in a violent event every 6 weeks, on the average. He died without a single enemy left in Arabia. The Koran in Medina is political in nature and very violent.

So there are two Korans-the Meccan Koran and the Medinan Koran. In the same way there are two Mohammeds-Meccan Mohammed and Medinan Mohammed. The confusing thing is that the two Mohammeds and the two Korans contradict each other. But the Koran gives a rule for resolving the contradictions-the later is better and stronger than the earlier. So Medina abrogates Mecca. The bad news is that jihad developed in Medina and all the "nice" verses are weaker than the intolerant verses.

But the earlier "nice" verses are still true. After all, the Koran is the exact words of Allah, who never lies. So Islam holds two contradictory positions on all politics. This is dualism. But the dualism is very confusing. Islam must be one or the other. Right? No. It is both at the same time. There is an Escher print that illustrates this dualism very well. Look at the print. Do you see angels or devils? Notice that you can't see both at the same time.

The Western mind has been trained that both sides of a contradiction can't be true. So the question arises? Which of the two Korans is the real Koran? Which of the two Mohammeds is the real Mohammed? We see this when people say: that is not the real Islam. Or: he is not a real Muslim. The entire question of which is the real Islam misses the point that Islam embraces both sides of the contradiction. Islam is killing kafirs. Islam is being tolerant of kafirs. Islam is both tolerant and peaceful and intolerant and murderous.

Go back to the Escher illustration. Does it make any sense to ask if it is a picture of angels? Or to ask if the devils are the "real" illustration? No, it is about both and any attempt to argue one over the other misses the point. Both of them are needed for the illustration to work. In the same way, Islam can only be BOTH Mecca and Medina.

Let's return to the point of the "moderate" Muslim. Now we have to ask the question: is this Muslim a moderate of the Meccan variety or of the Medinan variety? Mohammed Atta, who was the lead jihadist on September 11, 2001, was a moderate of the Medinan sort. Just like Mohammed. Or is the "moderate" Muslim of the Meccan, generally religious and nice, type? The counter-terrorism expert does not make it clear which type she actually means, since it could be either.
The term "moderate" Muslim has no meaning because it does not identify which side of Islam the moderate is.

But we all know that what is meant is that moderate Muslims speak nicely and we are not afraid of them. They mean a Meccan Muslim when they use the word "moderate." Let's tackle his claim that the moderate Muslims are not silent. They may not be silent in dealing with kafirs, but they are silent in dealing with Medinan Muslims. Why? Two reasons. Medina was violent and most people are afraid of violence. That is the reason violence works. But there is a second reason. Remember that the Medinan jihadic Koran is better than the Meccan version. Medina trumps Mecca and Muslims know this.

"Radical Islamic groups"

What does "radical" mean? Killing, robbing, enslaving, assassination, torture, deceiving, jihad? As long as those behaviors occur with the kafirs on the receiving end, they are all acts that were performed by Mohammed. If Mohammed did them then they are not radical. Mohammed defines the middle of the road--normative behavior.

What happened in Mumbai, India, the World Trade Towers and Beslan, Russia was not radical. Each and every action at those sites was based upon the Sunna of Mohammed.

It is time to dwell a moment on the word "kafir." The strict meaning of kafir is unbeliever, but unbeliever is a neutral term. The Koran defines kafir by its usage. Kafirs can be robbed, raped, crucified, tortured, deceived, enslaved, plotted against, insulted and more. Kafir is the worst word in human language. Our counter-terrorism expert is a kafir and does not know it.

"moderates are using the Koran to prove the radicals to be wrong"

Anytime anyone only references the Koran when they are talking about Islam, you are dealing with a deceiver or an ignorant person. The Koran is only 16% of the Islamic canon. The Koran does not have enough in it to accomplish even one of Islam's vaunted Five Pillars. The Sira and the Hadith compromise the 84% of Islamic canon that shows a Muslim how to be a Muslim.

The Hadith devotes 20% of its text to jihad. The Sira devotes 75% of its words to jihad. Which "moderate" can deny those facts?

The Meccan Koran devotes 67% of its words towards kafirs, not Muslims. The Medinan Koran devotes 51% of its material to the kafir. Out of all this material in the Koran some of it in Mecca seems to promise goodness to the kafir, but the later Koran takes away the chance of goodness.

The "radicals," the Medinan Muslims, are right. The Meccan Muslims are deceivers, perhaps of themselves, but certainly deceivers without any doctrinal basis.

Let's vet the Muslim experts. If anything they say agrees with Mohammed then they are right. If anything the Muslim says disagrees with Mohammed then they are wrong. So who needs a Muslim? Go straight to Mohammed, the Sira and the Hadith. We don't need hearsay; we need facts, Mohammed's facts, and not Islamic gossip.

I don't care about what any Muslim says, except Mohammed. Actually, there is one, and only one, Muslim who will give you the straight truth-an apostate, one who has left Islam. But apostates tell us that no one believes them. Obviously, our counter-terrorism expert has never talked with any apostates.

"I don't think maligning Islam's holy man is proper behavior"

Since when is quoting from the Sira and Hadith maligning? Mohammed gave out the rules for rape in jihad. He owned sex slaves, told Muslims it was good to beat their wives, laughed when his enemy's heads were thrown at his feet. It's in the book. Such behavior goes on for page after page, year after year. Why is referring to facts maligning?

"The counter-terrorism expert is a Jew and gives two incidents of how Muslims have helped Jews. In Albania some Muslims did not turn Jews over to Nazis, some Muslims helped a Jewish kid on the NY streets and became good friends."

Sure, many Muslims have been good to kafirs. Dualism allows for that. But let's examine what Mohammed did to the Jews; that is Sunna.

In the Mecca Mohammed portrayed himself in the line of Jewish prophets and that his angel was Gabriel, a Jewish angel. Large parts of the Meccan Koran are derived from the Old Testament, but all of the stories have been modified to preach that Allah destroys all of those who do not listen to his prophets. Other than that Mohammed is the Jew's best friend.

Then he moved to Medina, which was half Jewish, and they told him that he was not a prophet. Both Mohammed's and the Koran's attitude changed about the Jews. (It is interesting how well the Koran tracks Mohammed's political progress. This parallel might cause the cynic to wonder if Mohammed wrote the Koran.)

In Medina Mohammed attacked, robbed and exiled the first two Jewish tribes. The third tribe was enslaved, sold for profit to be used for jihad and the 800 male members were executed in one day. Before that Mohammed had two different Jews assassinated for speaking against him. After every Jew was gone in Medina, Mohammed went 100 miles out his way to attack the Jews of Khaybar. They had done nothing to Mohammed. (Does this remind you of the Jews in Mumbai?)

After he had crushed them, he tortured the Jewish leader to death (does this remind you of Mumbai?), took their land and made the Jews Islam's first dhimmis. Dhimmis had no civil rights and had to pay a tax of half of all their income to Islam. Then on his deathbed, Mohammed banished the Jews from Arabia. His annihilation of the Jews in Arabia was 100%, better than Hitler.

Hitler hated Jews, but it was not until the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem gave him the idea of extinction (taken from the Sunna of Mohammed when he annihilated the Jews of Medina), that the death camps were planned. Only 6.8% of Mein Kamph is Jew hatred, whereas, 10.6% of the Medinan Koran is involved in Jew hatred. So the Koran of Medina has more Jew hatred than Mein Kamph, but who is counting?

That is the Sunna of Mohammed.

Andrew Bostom's seminal encyclopedia, The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism, is 766 pages of disgusting bigotry by Islam. But for this Jew in counter-terrorism, his three examples show that Islam is the friend of the Jews.

There are 14 verses in the Koran that say that a Muslim is not the friend of the kafir. Here is one about the Jews:

Koran 5:51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

But let's be clear here. Isn't it strange that people assume that a Muslim is only influenced by Islam? Every Muslim actually has three parts: Meccan Muslim, Medinan Muslim and kafir-Muslim.

To the degree a person is ruled by Islam, they are not a kafir's friend. But "Muslims" are also influenced by the Golden Rule (the Golden Rule is not part of Islamic dualistic ethics) and can actually be a friend of a kafir, because the kafir-Muslim is not following Islamic ethics, but kafir ethics.

So if the Muslim is actually your friend, then in that moment he is not Islamic. But there is another possibility. Mohammed repeatedly told Muslims to deceive kafirs when it would advance Islam. So the friendship may be deception. Tragic, isn't it? (Please do not respond and say that Islam has a Golden Rule. Give me the quote from the doctrine. Islam has two sets of rules-one for Muslims and a second for kafirs. The very word for all non-Muslims, kafirs, denies the Golden Rule. Mohammed treated Muslims one way and kafirs another way. Ethical dualism is Sunna.)

The counter-terrorism expert is not unique. Their arguments are the same as Bush, Kennedy, Pelosi, the FBI chief and the rest of the politicians, media experts and religious leaders. His arguments are standard Government Issue.

Here is the problem. All of my arguments are based upon the actual doctrine. When I talk about Islam I use the Koran, the Sira and the Hadith. Their arguments are based upon hearsay and opinion. But according to the media and university intellectuals I am a hate[-]filled bigot and they are a beacon of goodness. Lies are good. Truth is bigotry. Can we say Orwellian?

I can defend my statements. I believe in critical thinking and facts. I want our government "experts" to give an argument to defend their doctrine of hearsay and opinion. What is the argument for not reading the Koran, Sira and Hadith? What is the argument for deliberate ignorance?

Don't argue that the doctrine of political Islam is too hard to understand. The bookstores and web are filled with the information about the Islamic Trilogy. Look it up. This argument is only five pages long.

The counter-terrorism expert believes that they hold the high ground on knowledge and morals. Their position is the highest one because they do not indulge critical thinking. They accept hearsay as not just a better source of knowledge about Islam, but also the true source of knowledge. Hearsay is the only moral position. Those who argue from facts from the Islamic doctrine and history are bad people who contradict "nice" people. Facts must submit to feelings in political correctness.

Ignorance has become the high moral ground. Not just the high moral ground, but the only moral ground. Those who quote the Koran, Sira and Hadith should be maligned, and no discussions of the fact-based philosophy should be allowed in any venue of respectability among the government, universities, or the media.

Notice that nowhere in this argument do I deny anything he has said. I merely offer some more facts that I want to add to the balance sheet. Their arguments are not wrong, but tragically short of all the information. That is all that is needed-all the facts. But knowing all the facts is bigotry. The experts say that facts are to be suppressed and act accordingly.

Our counter-terrorism experts are doctrine deniers. They deny that Islam has a doctrine and that it should ever be read. Two kinds of people know the doctrine of Islam-Muslims and kafirs. It is the dhimmis who deny the doctrine of Islam-dhimmi doctrine deniers.

Today the complete source material for all of political Islam can be held in one hand and easily read. Therefore, it all boils down to the question: How can any "expert" justify the first statement about Islam without having read the Koran, Sira and the Hadith?

Bill Warner

Permalink /blog/refuting-counter-terrorism-dhimmitude/

http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/refuting-counter-terrorism-dhimmitude/

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 5^th, 2009 at 7:56am:

So in other words you gotta chop out about 75% of the book for it to be non-violent? Or at least less violent than the Qur'an supposedly is. Anyway my offer is for Bible vs. Qur'an, take it or leave it.

Christians follow Christ, his teachings are in the NT.

Ok, Bible vs Qur'an. I choose a Gideons Bible. Compare the two.

Calanen,

One has to wonder if you actually even read that article yourself.

Or did you just get it in an email with anti-Islamic title, and thought "hmm this'll go down well on ozpolitic.."?

I skimmed over it, nothing new, typical anti-Islamic propaganda. Just a few points, about the complete lies written about Muhammad's (pbuh) treatment of the Madinian Jews. Have you actually read about the history? About how they committed treason by assisting an invading army to attack Madina? As I've advised you on a few occasions already, read some  history please. You are extremely ignorant about a lot of basic historical facts.

Your understanding of the relationship between the Muslims and Jews of Madina is about as accurate as the IDF press releases regarding the Palestinians, that go via their PR consultants.

ROTFLMAO at Muslim ignorance...  

S
Quote:

o in other words you gotta chop out about 75% of the book for it to be non-violent? Or at least less violent than the Qur'an supposedly is.

The New Testament contains the teachings of Christ Abu...  hence Christians.  Now put up or shut up.

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Yeh I know it's a big worry isn't it... I have a good idea easel. How about you bring all the verses from the Qur'an which speak about war/violence, and I'll bring all those from the Bible. And we'll see which one looks more like a violent war doctrine?

mod: don't change usernames abu- start such a thread where you have not banned me.

What we have with Gaza and Hamas is the situation where you bring up children in hatred and ignorance and then allow them to take control.

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What we have with Gaza and Hamas is the situation where you bring up children in hatred and ignorance and then allow them to take control.

How narrow is your thinking at times Grendel.  Do you really expect the children living in the ghettos of Palestine could possibly grow up with love for their neighbours while they watch their families blown to bits?  They're hungry, uneducated now and have only ever lived with violence.

War can drag people down to inhuman levels and if these children are full of hate - who shall we hold responsible?

mantra - how about mohammad, or hamas as those responsible  ??

mantra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2009 at 12:24pm:

Quote: What we have with Gaza and Hamas is the situation where you bring up children in hatred and ignorance and then allow them to take control. War can drag people down to inhuman levels and if these children are full of hate - who shall we hold responsible?

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how about mohammad, or hamas as those responsible  ??

Sprintcyclist - the Palestinians needed strong leadership who could give them some hope.  They had none.  There are things about Islam I detest, the same goes for Christianity and Judaism.

Perhaps we should be grateful that all the Islamic states and countries don't join forces and destroy Israel.  

This is an extract from a response by Antony Loewenstein - a jew who the zionists shun and detest, but gives his view of the cruelty inflicted on the Palestinians.  Until the thuggery of Israel stops - Hamas & Hezbollah will have plenty of fodder for future warfare.


You write that Israel would love to reduce its ties to the US, but is unable to do so. Well, then Israel cannot honestly call itself an independent nation. It is a client state, like many other similiar countries around the world.

Washington has convinced Israel that it can act however it wishes towards the Palestinians and suffer no punishment as a result, such as reduced aid etc. Of course, the US is happy for Israel to behave brutally towards the Palestinians, because it has little time for their claims, wishes or rights. But as the US becomes less important in the Middle East - as the Iraq war has thankfully brought - Israel will have to make a decision. Stay wedded to Washington, or find its own path. The initial signs are not too positive.

You rightly state that a state's first obligations are to its citizens, but Israel's behaviour is in fact endangering these very people. Maintaining and expanding the occupation, launching disastrous wars into Lebanon, encouraging war against Iran and still praising the "stability" of the Iraq war are all contributing to a decrease in safety for Israelis.

How does the Zionist lobby in all honesty truly believe that a military strike against Iran will improve Israel's position in the Middle East? Virtually every Middle East expert - not working for the American Enterprise Institute or the Weekly Standard, of course - will tell you that, and yet the mainstream Jewish position on the Iranian "threat" is to attack first, ask questions later. Such reckless behavior almost proves the adage that Israel is a democracy for Jews where the military actually makes the major decisions

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerGuest.jhtml?itemNo=848637

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/2796/mummybomberl468x468ac1.jpg


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Horrific video of a child sending her suicide bomber mother to her death

By MATTHEW KALMAN

Last updated at 12:50 23 March 2007

Palestinian TV is showing a music video in which a four-year-old girl sings the praises of her suicide bomber mother and vows to follow in her footsteps.
The little girl grasps a stick of dynamite from a drawer in her mother's dressing-table and says: "I will follow Mummy".

Scroll down to see the video ...
Reem Riyashi with her young daughter Duha

The shocking footage is being aired repeatedly on Al-Aqsa TV, the official station of the new Palestinian unity government headed by prime minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, which seeks the destruction of Israel.

The video is shown between programmes without any accompanying commentary.

It shows a child actress playing four-year-old Duha Riyashi singing to her mother, Reem, as she prepares for a suicide bombing.
Reem Riyashi, a 22-year-old mother of two from Gaza, blew herself up at the entrance to a joint Israeli-Palestinian industrial zone in January 2004, killing four Israelis.

She was the first mother to join the grim death-roll of suicide bombers and the first woman despatched on such a mission by Hamas.

In the two minute video the young child sings as her mother prepares the bomb next to her dressing-table in the bedroom.
She sings: "Mommy, what are you carrying in your arms instead of me? A toy or a present for me?"

Clips from the video
Later, she sees the news of her mother's suicide on television and realizes her mother was carrying a bomb.

At first, the child cries for her mummy, begging her to come and put her and her brother to bed.

But then she sings: "Instead of me you carried a bomb in your hands / Only now, I know what was more precious than us / May your steps be blessed".

At the end of the video, Duha opens the dressing-table drawer to find a stick of explosives like the ones used in suicide bomb belts.
Grasping the deadly material, she vows to copy her mother:

"My love will not be words / I will follow Mummy in her steps," she sings.

Days before her death, Riyashi posed for the camera holding an AK-47 assault rifle in one arm and in the other her year-old son whose tiny fingers are grasping a bomb.

Her two young children were interviewed on Al-Aqsa TV earlier this month Duha was encouraged to recite a poem called "Mama Reem". "Reem, you are a fire bomb, Your children and submachine gun are your motto," chanted the little girl.
See the video here ...

• Most Israelis say their government should have "day-to-day" contacts with the Palestinian government, even if Hamas is in charge.
52 per cent of Israelis polled for an Israel Radio survey said Israel should work with the Palestinian unity government formed last weekend, with 36 per cent against and 12 per cent undecided.

The Israeli government said it would talk only to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and not have any contact with government ministers in the new coalition which is dominated by Hamas.

Israel has called on the international community to keep up its embargo on the Palestinian government as long as Hamas is in charge.
For their part, 68 per cent of Palestinians told Near East Consulting they supported peace with Israel and 69 per cent said the new Hamas-Fatah coalition would succeed in lifting international sanctions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-444058/Horrific-video-child-sending-suicide-bomber-mother-death.html

This whole topic is depressing.  Why should children have to live like this?  Do you really believe shaking hands with Israel will solve all their problems?

You have no grasp of history or reality mantra...  what happened to the palestinians in Kuwait?  What happened when they were in Jordan?  maybe just maybe they are their own worst enemies and maybe I was right.

mantra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2009 at 7:38pm:

This whole topic is depressing.  Why should children have to live like this?  Do you really believe shaking hands with Israel will solve all their problems?

Until Hamas and anyone else that follows them puts aside their genocidal hatred of all jews, there is no resolution. They still think that they can win with the notion of extermination as the solution to the problem, and a lot of dhimmis in the west embolden them in this belief.

They need to accept the right of Israel to exist, renounce all terror, forever and ever...otherwise there will never be peace.

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You have no grasp of history or reality mantra...  what happened to the palestinians in Kuwait?  What happened when they were in Jordan?  maybe just maybe they are their own worst enemies and maybe I was right.

I don't know Grendel - what happened to them in Jordan & Kuwait?  


Quote:

They need to accept the right of Israel to exist, renounce all terror, forever and ever...otherwise there will never be peace.

Obviously they aren't going to give in to Israel - it's gone too far now and they are obsessed with getting their "homeland" back.  Do you think that Washington can continue to arm & support Israel to the extent that they have over the years?  Perhaps Obama has different ideas and the zionist clan who want a pseudo homeland for the Jews are getting on in years and support is waning for Israel.

Sorry - but the zionists are bullies and have created this horror in Palestine.  I say zionists because they have a different mindset to the average jew.  The zionists are as much terrorists as the extremist Muslim groups, they are just smarter and more sophisticated and can spin a better yarn.

mantra - the hmas have had as strong a leader as could be imagined.

many of the murderous islamic nutters

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Obviously they aren't going to give in to Israel - it's gone too far now and they are obsessed with getting their "homeland" back.

But that's the idiocy of it all. It was never their homeland. Never. The whole area was owned by the Turks for 400 years. Then when the Turks lost WW1, the Brits got it.

The British carved up 80% of the BMP into Jordan. The remainder was split into the Arab state, and the Jewish state. So the 'Palestinians' were given their state in 1948 and could stay either in Palestine or go to the much bigger Jordan. But no, the Jews having 10% of the BMP was just unacceptable so we need to murder them all - oh the jews beat us. Well that just isnt fair, let's have terrorism for the next 60 years.

They need to get over it, put their arms down, take Gaza, the West Bank, and move on.

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Do you think that Washington can continue to arm & support Israel to the extent that they have over the years

Maybe, maybe not. But the US didnt arm or support Israel in 1948, and it still won against 10 Arab countries that invaded with professional armies. A group of civilian immigrants who moved from Europe to Israel defeated the combined professional armed forces of a host of Arab nations.

So whether the US supports Israel or not, Israel isnt moving. Not unless someone gets the bomb and nukes them. And even if they do that, they better hope they get them all - because if not, Israel will come back and nuke them.

Historians: Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Was Overreaction

Europe 's view of the present Israeli offensive against Hamas as an "overreaction" and "disproportionate use of force" is rooted in relatively recent history, say progressive researchers. In 1943, Europe itself suffered from a similar Jewish overreaction to some controversial German policies, in an event known as the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, when Zionist radicals attacked the National Socialist German Workers Party that was loved by the German people for its far-reaching educational and social welfare services. In fact, many academics who teach Peace Studies at prestigious universities believe that it was the Zionists' "disproportionate use of force" that had ruined hopes for peace in Europe and caused a humanitarian crisis that could have easily be avoided if only Jews had shown restraint and tolerance towards the democratically elected German government.


European politicians avoid apportioning blame
BRUSSELS, April 30, 1943 -- European leaders today expressed their "acute concern" over the intensifying conflict between Jews and the Gestapo in Warsaw, which they fear may further deteriorate fragile peace in Europe. Foreign ministers of the few remaining independent European powers adopted a declaration calling for an immediate end to the hostilities. Reflecting differing views among European nations, the document appears worded to avoid apportioning blame. It notes the Nazi Resistance must immediately make the operation of their gas chambers more transparent, while adding that Jews must show "utmost restraint" and not resort to "disproportionate action."

League of Nations anti-bias panel accuse Jews of racism
Members of a League of Nations anti-bias panel criticized Warsaw Jews on Thursday for violating humanitarian law and racially targeting the Nazis.

Jewish Uprising Triggers Humanitarian Crisis
16 Germans dead and 85 wounded In Warsaw Slaughter

Europe's call for an end to hostilities in the Warsaw Ghetto raises questions over how long Jews can stave off international pressure to end their three-week offensive in Warsaw, which has claimed hundreds of lives and created a refugee crisis. While moderate politicians are urging Jews to exercise "restraint" in their retaliation against the Nazis, most European leaders are denouncing Jewish retaliation as "disproportionate."

Goebbels: Jews must be held accountable for war crimes

Joseph Goebbels, a charismatic spokesman for the popular National Socialist German Workers Party, described the aftermath of Jewish strikes as "dramatic" and said Jewish forces had struck "very important elements of infrastructure," demanding that perpetrators be brought to justice at a press-conference in Berlin on Wednesday. "Jews must be held accountable for their war crimes, terrorism, and systematic human rights violations committed against the Aryan people," Mr. Goebbels said.

How could both sides have blundered so badly?

Miscalculations by Jews and Nazis have weakened Europe's fragile unity. A ceasefire is needed immediately. Where is Zionist exit strategy? Jewish hawks have started a war without any plausible objectives, any viable plan for disengagement, or any rational assessment of costs and benefits. Are they ready to absorb damage on the home front?

Poll: The tide of public opinion has shifted in the direction of Gestapo

The Jews' bloody response to concentration camps has united their enemies and divided their friends, the results of a current poll show. Atrocities committed by the Zionist militants in Warsaw and elsewhere have appalled Western opinion. The stature of the Gestapo grows, and the uprising has succeeded in discrediting moderate Germans and silencing the Nazi leaders in Berlin who were ready to start talking instead of killing.

That's very interesting Soren - it almost makes Hitler look like a freedom fighter who ends up becoming a terrorist.  It infers the Jews are the aggressors.


Quote:

So whether the US supports Israel or not, Israel isnt moving. Not unless someone gets the bomb and nukes them. And even if they do that, they better hope they get them all - because if not, Israel will come back and nuke them.

Only Israel has the nuclear weapons - perhaps that's why there are so many suicide bombers.   According to Wiki - the modern suicide bombing only began in the 80's.  Why is it always inferred suicide bombing is an intrinsic part of the Muslim culture - that's untrue.

Although use of suicide attacks has occurred throughout recent history — particularly with the Japanese kamikaze pilots of World War II — its main notoriety as a specific kind of attack began in the 1980s and involved explosives deliberately carried to the target either on the person or in a civilian vehicle and delivered by surprise. Following the success of a 1983 truck bombing of two barracks buildings in Beirut that killed 300 and helped drive American and French Multinational Force troops from Lebanon, the tactic spread to insurgent groups like the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, and Islamist groups such as Hamas.

Calanen wrote on Jan 5^th, 2009 at 9:03pm:

Quote: Obviously they aren't going to give in to Israel - it's gone too far now and they are obsessed with getting their "homeland" back. But that's the idiocy of it all. It was never their homeland. Never. The whole area was owned by the Turks for 400 years. Then when the Turks lost WW1, the Brits got it. The British carved up 80% of the BMP into Jordan. The remainder was split into the Arab state, and the Jewish state. So the 'Palestinians' were given their state in 1948 and could stay either in Palestine or go to the much bigger Jordan. But no, the Jews having 10% of the BMP was just unacceptable so we need to murder them all - oh the jews beat us. Well that just isnt fair, let's have terrorism for the next 60 years. They need to get over it, put their arms down, take Gaza, the West Bank, and move on.

An unfortunately accurate precis of the recent events in the area by Calanen, highlights the ultimate, sad, truth, the Palestinians are just sore losers.

They lose every time, and will continue to lose, and their people will continue to suffer and die because they just refuse to admit that they are beaten.

When has there ever been a war where one side can keep refusing to accept the result, because they think it wasn't fair?

I don't think wars a re played that way.

So they have a choice, keep fighting, and keep losing, or stop fighting, and let Israel prosper, in peace, and reap the rewards of having a peaceful existence, for their children.

Is anyone so blinkered as to expect Palestine to ever drive the Israelis from the middle east?

I think only the totally insane Islamist extremists, who think Allah will help them win their holy jihad, would fall into that category.

That is why they are 'the' enemy which must be beaten, as they are the greatest obstacle to Palestinians facing up to the reality which must be accepted, before peace can be hoped for.

No doubt Hamas believes that its suicidal devotion to an impossible dream will be rewarded by god with a miracle – the destruction of the indestructible. But they should look at it another way – Allah has willed that Israel shall exist.

Hamas, Hizbullah must be destroyed  - by Arabs



Many ask why fellow Arabs would support the destruction of Hamas and Hizbullah. The answer is simple. Both organizations, in addition to the rule in Damascus and Iran, represent everything that is wrong in the Middle East today: Morally weak organizations or states seeking revenge, extolling resistance, and abetting violence against those who have surpassed us in knowledge and technology.
Hamas, Hizbullah must be destroyed

Our only chance, as a civilization that invented Algebra and helped usher advances in medicine, astronomy, and literature during an era of co-existence with the west, is to re-create that co-existence. How could we do that if ignorance is our guide and violent men are our leaders? Witness co-existence by the fact that Algebra was invented by al-Jabr just about the same time the Jewish King Omri founded Samaria.

How could Arabs and Muslims help their societies if their program for progress is built upon violence? When was the last time Hamas or Hizbullah issued their 5-year plan to improve the lives of their followers? It will never happen because the failed leadership of both organizations seeks power instead of duty, money instead of benevolence, and longevity in both instead of renewal for the good of their people.

Hizbullah and Hamas must be destroyed and the regimes in Damascus and Tehran must be changed for all Arabs and Farsi people to survive and prosper in an ever evolving world timed in nanoseconds and propagating through quantum physics. Their poisonous rhetoric of violence feeding a frenzied mass of ignorant Arabs leaning on their extreme religion to honor their incapacity to compete with the West is destroying future generations of hopeful saviors of our culture and traditions. We Arabs must be the ones to stop Hamas and Hizbullah, rather than support their demonic and twisted logic of resisting development, enlightenment, and progress of the region. Even when development and enlightenment stare them in the face, their instinct is to destroy them pretending to safeguard their honor, the mechanics of which supersede all else including a happy life of fulfillment and accomplishments.

So while we abhor violence of all kind, Israel's campaign against Hamas must continue to the bitter end not only for the sake of peace but also to help Arabs realize they have a choice: Destroy like Gaza or develop like Dubai. Will this happen soon? Maybe not, but if a wake-up call and a nudge, once in a while, to pierce through the fog of deceit perpetrated by Syria and Iran is what it takes to see the light, then we stand by the West and Israel in the only hope that an Arab Renaissance in the Levant may actually have a chance of resurrection.

Farid Ghadry is the President of the Reform Party of Syria, a leading US-based opposition group to the rule of Assad and “resistance” in the Levant

http://www.icjs-online.org/index.php?article=1730

mantra wrote on Jan 5^th, 2009 at 9:54pm:

That's very interesting Soren - it almost makes Hitler look like a freedom fighter who ends up becoming a terrorist.  It infers the Jews are the aggressors.

It's a spoof, mod: personal attack

ROTFLMAO...  mod: personal attack

I'm sorry...  how come the PLO don't get a mention mantra?

mantra  you are clueless re history.

There were no such thing as Palestinians nor was there a country called Palestine until the mandate was created.  There were bunches of individual tribes spread all over the place.  75% of the mandate is now Jordan.  The newly formed group calling themselves palestinians tried to create their own country in Jordan and guess what...  their arab brothers put them down.  there were 100s of thousands in Kuwait till Hussein invaded and guess what...  many betrayed their Kuwaiti hosts and even fought for the Iraqis...  when Kuwait was reclaimed theye were persecuted with good reason and many forced to leave the country they betrayed.

Quote:

mantra wrote on Yesterday at 9:54pm: That's very interesting Soren - it almost makes Hitler look like a freedom fighter who ends up becoming a terrorist.  It infers the Jews are the aggressors. It's a spoof, you dozy bint.

I have never professed to know much about history Soren or been particularly interested, but I'm allowed my comments and questions.  

If I am trying to understand what is going on - is that a reason to be derisive and call me names.  Does it make you feel like a big man?

BTW - no two versions of history are ever the same that I've noticed - conjecture and religious interpretation seems to be the rule.


Quote:

ROTFLMAO...  she's clueless Soren.

And you're not Grendel?  Thanks for that brief explanation though - it tells so much.   ::)

That's a bit unfair on Mantra.
It's easy enough to skim over posts without getting their intended meaning. And nothing would surprise
as far as radical viewpoints go.
It's little wonder that wars are predominantly caused  by men.




Quote:

They need to get over it, put their arms down, take Gaza, the West Bank, and move on.

Yes I think they should accept that Israel has a right to exist and so should the rest of the Arab and muslim world.
The Jews have been around since the year dot, as have the Arabs.
Unfortunately it seems that accepting the Jews is like turning turning their back on their religion. The year dot for many of them seems to starts with their prophet.
The Islamic attitude seems to be, that if the Jews want to stay then they will only do so by living in fear.
When the Jews say enough is enough, they are painted to be the aggressors while the radicalist cowards fire rockets from behind prams.
Then when they get their butts kicked over and over in wars which they instigate, they whinge about losing the land of their battlefront.


Abu said:

Quote:

Firstly, I couldn't care less about Arab or not Arab. It is a Muslim land

That's an attitude that I find a bit disturbing.
Does that mean that Indonesian land is the same as Palestinian land?
Do you consider an Australian Mosque to be separated from Australia?
Do you consider a muslim neighborhood to be an Islamic state?

hamas have targetted jewish children worldwide.
Any muslim worth a pinch of salt should rally against hamas suicide bid worldwide.

Anyone think they will ???




"AS Israeli troops enter Gaza, a Hamas leader has warned the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel's devastating assault.

“They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,” Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location.
“They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.” .........

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24878518-954,00.html

Quote:

"AS Israeli troops enter Gaza, a Hamas leader has warned the Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel's devastating assault.

Hamas hit a kindergarten today.

Grad Rocket Strikes Ashdod Kindergarten Schoolyard

Tevet 9, 5769, 05 January 09 04:35by Hana Levi Julian(IsraelNN.com) A long-range Grad-type Katyusha rocket landed in the schoolyard of a kindergarten in a northern Ashdod neighborhood at approximately 3:20 Monday afternoon -- but miraculously, only two people were lightly wounded, one by flying shrapnel. Thirty children are normally in the classroom during the day, when the missile struck, but due to Home Front Command instructions, the building was empty at the time.

Magen David Adom medics who raced to the scene said they treated a number of people who suffered from severe emotional trauma. Eyewitnesses described the explosion as "unusually loud."

At about 3:00 p.m., a short-range Kassam rocket exploded in the Eshkol region as well. No one was injured and no damage was reported.

Hamas and allied terrorist attacked southern Israel with close to 30 rockets since 7:00 a.m. Monday, appearing to focus primarily on the coastal cities of Ashkelon and Ashdod.

At about 2:00 p.m., the Color Red incoming rocket alert siren wailed in Ashkelon, sending residents racing for shelters for what seemed to be the umpteenth time within a two-hour span. Officials said at least one long-range Grad-type Katyusha rocket was discovered a short time later, having landed in an open area. No injuries or damage was reported in that attack.

An earlier barrage was more dangerous, however. A Grad rocket slammed into an open area in Ashkelon at approximately 1:30 p.m. Monday and landed next to a single-family home. Initial reports by Magen David Adom medics racing to the scene said early reports indicated that at least two people were lightly injured by shrapnel and a number of people suffered severe emotional trauma.  

A second Grad rocket exploded elsewhere in the city at about the same time as well, but there were no reports of injuries or damage in that attack. Within 15 minutes, another barrage struck Ashkelon; at least one Grad rocket landed in an open area in the city, according to city officials, but caused no injuries or damage.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/SendMail.aspx?print=print&type=0&item=129225

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1931/alertmapwamg6.jpg

Map showing how much time you have before the rockets hit when the alert sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHhXINu6mCc&feature=related

A good short film about the impact of a Kassam strike on a family in Sderot.

the suggestion that palestinian children grow up to be killers is ridiculous

obviously war has an affect on children, but this does not pre-determine their lives or their mentalities

calanen- what are the sources of these screen shots you've put up?

Quote:

calanen- what are the sources of these screen shots you've put up?

Which ones?

Gaybriel wrote on Jan 6^th, 2009 at 10:46pm:

the suggestion that palestinian children grow up to be killers is ridiculous obviously war has an affect on children, but this does not pre-determine their lives or their mentalities calanen- what are the sources of these screen shots you've put up?

Ridiculous huh? When this is a little girls' school play in Gaza in a Hamas kindergarten:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yncV2AYGA8Y&feature=related

Quote:

Hamas hit a kindergarten today.

Israel just demolished a UN run school, killing 40 in Gaza, and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind you have a very good answer for why, and why it's justified, and why it was not only deserved, but was absolutely necessary. Gonna be kind of hard for them to explain why they hit a UN run school, however I'm 100% sure that whatever whimsical tale their PR firms are busy spinning together now, you're  going to swallow it hook, line and sinker and then propagate it here as if it's gospel truth.

Hamas have virtually no targetting systems, they don't aim for kindergartens, IDF have the most sophisticated targetting systems in the world, they knew where those missiles were going within a few centimetres....

40 people dead (most likely many of them children) in a school that's being used.... 2 people suffered minor shrapnel wounds in a disused kindergarten... Again, I am 100% sure you'll still consider one completely justified and the other a despicable terrorist attack... and it ain't hard to guess which is which.

Well the half hearted calls, from some western countries, for a cease fire, shows just how little support that Palestinians still have.

People have stuck up for them before, to try and broker a peace, but just see them go straight back to provocative acts of terrorism.

I won't be surprised if the west sits back and lets the Isralis finally do the job, and drive these wackjobs right away from their territory, to a place where they can continue to indulge their violent nature, by just killing each other.

After all, after killing a jew, a muslim loves killing other muslims, best.

It's call being at war Abu...  now if Hamas would like to come out in the open accidents would be less likely to happen.

Quote:

It's call being at war Abu..

So when Palestinians are killed it's 'tough luck' that's what being at war is about, yet when the shoe's on the other foot it's a horrific tragedy and all the other jazz? I'm not surprised.


Quote:

now if Hamas would like to come out in the open accidents would be less likely to happen.

Hamas are out in the open fighting, resisting the invasion, hundreds of their memmbers have been killed. What leads you to believe they're not out in the open? Besides the usual IDF propaganda?

I'm sorry but targetting a school is not an accident, this is a clear war crime, by any standard, unless you have your own standard in which it is not. Even if Hamas made their headquarters in the school, firing missiles on it would still be a war crime. The fact that you think otherwise is quite disturbing.

Now lets see abu.

hamas get elected on the basis of their extremism, their promise to murder ALL jews.
Since that election they have murderered the fatah members and continually send rockets over to israel.

Finally israel are determined to live in peace.
So who is to blame ?

hamas or those that elected them ?

mod: inflammatory

Paedophile priests?

mod: inflammatory and disrespectful

And it's not just the Catholics, even some of your fellow 'charismatics' have been caught out in the US. Some of the biggest leaders actually. Doing drugs and having sex with young boys etc. I'm sure it exists here also..

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 8:15am:

I'm sorry but targetting a school is not an accident, this is a clear war crime, by any standard, unless you have your own standard in which it is not. Even if Hamas made their headquarters in the school, firing missiles on it would still be a war crime. The fact that you think otherwise is quite disturbing.

Except that Hamas was using the schools to fire mortars at the Israelis in the hope that Israel wouldnt risk firing back, to hand the enemy a propaganda victory. It was a win win for Hamas. If they fire from behind women and children sheltering at the school, they have a firebase with immunity. If Israel does happen to fire back, they can scream 'War crime' as you are doing.

Israel would have known very well what its options were, and decided that the Hamas mortar team had to go.  Even though their would be the inevitable 'war crime' claim by people like yourself.

Geez Sprint, you really do yourself, and those who seek to highlight the problems arising from Islamic extremism, absolutely no credit, when you lower the debate to such petty, childish, insults.
There are plenty of valid reasons to challenge Islam over, without resorting to adolescent taunting.

Now Abu, you say the Israelis hitting the UN school with artillery was a war crime, and I certainly would not argue against that, without knowing all the circumstances which led to the event occurring, so I will agree that it is totally unacceptable, but I will reserve judgement on just how "criminal" it was, until after all the facts come to light, but prima facie, I agree that it looks unforgivable.

Now we certainly know that Hamas, sometimes uses schools to launch attacks on Israel from.
Do you denounce Hamas for those actions?

Firstly the Palestinians have known for a very long time that even if they were to be 'hiding in schools' that the IDF would have few qualms about firing on them, so there's very little incentive for them to do so, which just blows this whole human shields nonsense to pieces. Secondly, not a single IDF fault can be found, in media reports, because they always have these excuses, 100% of the time, without fail, even though some of their own soldiers have at times broken rank and admitted it's all a load of crap. And the sad thing is, ignoramuses such as yourself never twig...

Not to worry.

30 reported killed in blast at UN school

By YAAKOV KATZ, AP AND JPOST.COM STAFF

At least 30 people were reportedly killed and 53 wounded in an explosion in a UN-run school in the town of Jabalya in the northern Gaza Strip, according to Palestinians. The IDF issued a statement saying the school grounds were used by terrorists to fire mortar shells at the troops. According to the IDF, among the dead were members of a Hamas launching cell, including operatives Immad Abu Askar and Hassan Abu Askar.

Gaza UN school as previously filmed by IDF drone.

Photo: IDF

Slideshow: Troops inside Gaza The infantrymen returned mortar shell fire into the school grounds, the army said. Defense officials told The Associated Press that booby-trapped bombs in the school triggered the secondary explosions which killed scores of Palestinians on the site.

The IDF released a video taken by a UAV in the end of 2007 showing terrorists firing mortar shells from right outside the school.

"Hamas has in the past fired at Israel and at troops from inside schools, making use of civilians, as is proven by UAV footage," the army said.

The United Nations said hundreds of people from a Gaza City refugee camp had sought shelter in the school from Israel's 11-day offensive against the Hamas terror group.

"There's nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorized and traumatized," said John Ging, the top UN official in Gaza.

"I am appealing to political leaders here and in the region and the world to get their act together and stop this," he said, speaking at Gaza's largest hospital. "They are responsible for these deaths."

Earlier Tuesday, seven Palestinians were killed in several separate incidents. One young man was killed in an attack on a Hamas charity building, a 15-year-old was killed in an air force attack in the center of Gaza City and five Palestinians were killed when their house in the eastern part of Gaza City was shelled.

Palestinians also said nine members of the same family were killed in the Zaytoun neighborhood of Gaza, six of them children. Three other people were reportedly killed in the strike. The Jerusalem Post could not independently confirm the Palestinian reports.

Also on Tuesday, the IAF struck the home of one of the founders of Hamas's rocket division on Tuesday morning, as Operation Cast Lead entered its eleventh day.

The IDF said that terror chief Iman Siam was in his house at the time of the air strike in the Jabalya neighborhood of northern Gaza.

The army said that in addition to being a founder of Hamas's rocket launching program, Siam was also the head of the group's artillery program throughout the Gaza Strip.

At least 10 Hamas and Islamic Jihad gunmen were killed in other Gaza battles early Tuesday, the IDF said. Palestinians put the number of fatalities at 25.

In central Gaza, the navy fired on targets in Deir al-Balah and in the El-Bureij refugee camp.

There was also fighting in Jabalya and in the Zeitun neighborhood of Gaza City.

Over the past 24 hours the IDF has reported escalating clashes in Gaza, with over 50 separate incidents in northern Gaza.

Paratroopers operating near the town of El-Atatra discovered on Tuesday a booby-trapped doll at the entrance to a smuggling tunnel. The doll was safely dismantled.

In an overnight clash, paratroopers operating near El-Atatra spotted a suicide bomber and opened fire on him. The shooting triggered his explosive belt, which killed him when it detonated. One soldier was lightly wounded in the incident.

The IDF announced that it had conducted over 30 sorties during overnight operations late Monday and early Tuesday. During the raids, IAF planes bombed the Jabalya home of Basal Abu Wadi, a prominent Hamas military officer who was at the level of a company commander in Izzadim Kassam. The Jubalya home of another Hamas officer, Ashraf Guda, was also destroyed in a different air strike. His house was said to function as a Hamas Command and Control Center. The house of a third company commander in the military wing, Iman Jalala, was also targeted overnight.

Elsewhere, a booby-trapped house was bombed. The IDF believed that there were a number of smuggling tunnels under the house.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167272256&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

EXCLUSIVE-Gaza headmaster was Islamic Jihad "rocket-maker"

Mon May 5, 2008 9:08am EDT  Email | Print | Share| Reprints | Single Page[-] Text [+]
By Adam Entous

RAFAH, Gaza Strip, May 5 (Reuters) - By day, Awad al-Qiq was a respected science teacher and headmaster at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip. By night, Palestinian militants say, he built rockets for Islamic Jihad.

The Israeli air strike that killed the 33-year-old last week also laid bare his apparent double life and embarrassed a U.N. agency which has long had to rebuff Israeli accusations that it has aided and abetted guerrillas fighting the Jewish state.

In interviews with Reuters, students and colleagues, as well as U.N. officials, denied any knowledge of Qiq's work with explosives. And his family denied he had any militant links at all, despite a profusion of Islamic Jihad posters at his home.

But militant leaders allied to the enclave's ruling Hamas group hailed him as a martyr who led Islamic Jihad's "engineering unit" -- its bomb makers. They fired a salvo of improvised rockets into Israel in response to his death.

Qiq's body was wrapped in an Islamic Jihad flag at his funeral, pictorial posters in his honour still bedeck his family home this week, and a handwritten notice posted on the metal gate at the entrance to the school declared that Qiq, "the chief leader of the engineering unit", would now find "paradise".

That poster was removed soon after Reuters visited the Rafah Prep Boys School, run by the U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian refugees. Staff there said on Monday that UNRWA officials had told them not to discuss Qiq's activities.

No one from the United Nations attended the funeral or has paid their respects to the family, relatives said, adding that Qiq's widow and five children had heard nothing about a pension.

Spokesman Christopher Gunness said UNRWA, which spelled its teacher's surname al-Geeg, was looking into the matter.

"We have a zero-tolerance policy towards politics and militant activities in our schools. Obviously, we are not the thought police and we cannot police people's minds," he said.

He added that staff were also regularly instructed not to engage in political or militant activities of any kind.

The Israeli army said its April 30 attack at Rafah, close to the Egyptian border, hit a workshop used for making rockets and other improvised weaponry. An Israeli intelligence source told Reuters that Qiq was involved in developing rockets and mortars.

Yet Qiq, a physics graduate with eight years' experience of teaching at UNRWA schools, was also described by colleagues as a rising star in education. Relatives said he was promoted to run the school last year, with the title of deputy headmaster.



DOUBLE LIFE

The case of Awad al-Qiq highlights the complexities of life among the 1.5 million people of the Gaza Strip, where close to half voted for Hamas in 2006. Hamas fighters join Islamic Jihad in campaigns of rockets and suicide bombing in pursuit of a stated goal of recovering all Palestinian lands lost to Israel.

Qiq's high profile as both a public figure and in the secret world is unusual enough to cause considerable interest among those in Gaza who were surprised by the funeral arrangements.

Sympathies for guerrillas, who number in the tens of thousands, are widespread despite Israeli efforts to discredit Hamas and its allies by choking food and fuel supplies to the population.

That tactic has also set Israel and UNRWA at odds. The agency, set up to care for Palestinian refugees, has spoken out against what it calls collective punishment of civilians.

Israel has long alleged that militants use UNRWA vehicles and facilities. The United Nations has denied those charges, although some UNRWA employees have had prominent political roles in groups like Hamas -- such as teacher Saeed Seyam, who was interior minister in the Hamas-led government elected in 2006.

Some Western officials say the agency, as one of the biggest employers in the Gaza Strip, simply reflects the society it serves. But donors such as the United States, which fund UNRWA's work, insist on vetting procedures to ensure their cash does not reach groups they class as terrorists -- such as Islamic Jihad.

While many in Gaza are open about political allegiances, the threat of the kind of Israeli action that cost him his life on April 30 meant Qiq's double role was kept very secret indeed.

Surrounded by Islamic Jihad mourning posters at the family home, his sister Naima insisted: "He's only a teacher and head of the school. School was his life. He had no time to work with Islamic Jihad." Other family members nodded in agreement.

At the school, a 17-year-old who gave his name as Shadi read a poster for his former teacher and said simply: "Nobody knew."

At the bombed-out workshop 3 km (2 miles) from the school, damaged cars can be seen through now-locked gates. A 35-year-old man who gave his name as Abu Mohammed said he had found Qiq dying inside after helicopters fired a missile at the building.

"He was still alive, but he died shortly after," he said.

Relatives recalled with pride that Qiq had met John Ging, UNRWA's Gaza operations director. But while fellow teachers had come to pay their respects, they saw no U.N. representative.

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

Quote:

Now Abu, you say the Israelis hitting the UN school with artillery was a war crime, and I certainly would not argue against that

The first voice of reason. Mozza, do you condemn those people who think that such attacks are justified and in fact cheer them? Because sadly, half your mates here now seem to be doing that.


Quote:

without knowing all the circumstances which led to the event occurring

Interesting that when the Palestinians launch attacks, you're not interested at all in 'knowing alll the circumstances', the media say it's an unspeakable act of terrorism, you nod on in agreeance and accept it without question.


Quote:

Now we certainly know that Hamas, sometimes uses schools to launch attacks on Israel from

How do you know they do? Other than from the usual IDF propaganda reports in the media? Do you think it would be in the IDF's interests to say we fired on a school because we just wanted to flatten their city? Or even to actually kill kids? IDF soldiers have admitted to targetting children, and have reported that it is common to target children. As I said above, I don't really think you're interested at all in 'knowing all the facts'.


Quote:

Do you denounce Hamas for those actions?

I see no evidence, other than IDF reports in the media, that they do this.

However, IDF soldiers themselves have admitted to using Palestinian women and children as 'human shields' and have admitted to stationing themselves in Palestinian homes regularly, in order to 'discourage' Palestinians from attacking them, or even just if they wanna watch sporting events on TV...

mozzaok - sorry.

Calanen does that somehow justify firing on schools or something?

mod: personal attack, and the most worrying part is you think you're fighting a violent and barbaric ideology, when it is yourself who obviously subscribes to the violent and barbaric ideology, one where justifying and accepting dropping bombs on schools is routine. So long as you can come up with a good excuse for doing it...

abu - there were islamics in the school firing mortars.
Being muslim islamics they had kids with them.


THAT justifies ridding the planet of them and that belief

mod: personal attack

It's time you entered the real world.

Israelis may be paranoid and have a loooooong memory, and be a little too unforgiving for my like,  etc, etc, etc...  but they don't target schools without good cause.

But of course it is just Western propaganda that Islamic Nutjobs from Hamas were firing rockets from there.

All of this just proves my belief that ALL religion is evil and those who follow one brand over the other always believe that "their" religion is the true and rightous one, makes me sick.
The problem is what is the solution? there are only two choices really as co habitation has not and will not work.
!st choice, Israel wipe out Palestine and all who follow.
2nd choice, disolve Israel send all the jews back to the USA and South Africa and the few there from Europe, and bring peace to the middle east and the world.
Dont let the jews get the world into ww3 because of some fantasy about a god and some chosen land/people crap.

We cannot ignore the fact that people chucking bombs at each other is a war.
All efforts should be made to keep innocent civilians out of the firing line, but when you see how the Hamas leaders have infiltrated their "soldiers", into every layer of Palestinian society, it is hard to imagine how one could avoid innocent civilians getting embroiled in the bloodshed, apart from just letting Hamas go about it's business of spreading terror.

My attitude to this war is that it will be bloody, and there will be civilian casualties, but if they do not rid Palestine of these Islamic Jihadists, then the slower, less bloody war, that has been going on for years, will just continue unabated.

I am hopeful that even if the present conflict is dreadful, it may ultimately save lives, by securing peace, through victory over the Islamic militants, who will never stop shedding blood, as long as they are there.

I'd have thought it was more an issue of people trying to kill other people Skip.

Would you sit by idly whilst people try to kill you?  That is just survival not a religious issue.

Quote:

That is just survival not a religious issue.

In most wars, the political/nationalistic, motivations, are pretty clear, but whenever an Islamic state is involved, that changes, because the church is the state, and the state is the church.

Another aspect of theocracy, with negative implications.

I have to admit to wondering about skip's idea, of just getting the jews out of the middle east, and if that would bring peace to the region.
There are certainly strong indications from all the Islamic states, that they will never accept their presence.

Mind you, I hold little confidence that if the jews did leave the region, that they would not just keep fighting amongst themselves anyway, or even look to the next neighbour to bring the glory of allah to.

I know the Indians are concerned about what the Pakistanis want to get up to.

My point Mozz is that the Israeli reaction is that based on continuous harrassment and attacks.  They aren't doing it because they are Muslims.  Hence the reason for the response is NOT a religious one.

Fair enough Grendel, I certainly would not argue that point.
Personally I think the Israelis have been pretty restrained in their response to continuous terror attacks on them.

I certainly believe that if the average aussie had a neighbour firing rockets at them, we would expect the army to go and sort them out, quick smart.

I think in that situation, all their talk of tolerance would evaporate quicker than a politician's promise.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 10:44am:

Quote: That is just survival not a religious issue. In most wars, the political/nationalistic, motivations, are pretty clear, but whenever an Islamic state is involved, that changes, because the church is the state, and the state is the church. Another aspect of theocracy, with negative implications. I have to admit to wondering about skip's idea, of just getting the jews out of the middle east, and if that would bring peace to the region. There are certainly strong indications from all the Islamic states, that they will never accept their presence. Mind you, I hold little confidence that if the jews did leave the region, that they would not just keep fighting amongst themselves anyway, or even look to the next neighbour to bring the glory of allah to. I know the Indians are concerned about what the Pakistanis want to get up to.

Its not just Islamamic states mozz, any state that has the church and state as one is a problem.
I only know of two religions where this occurs,  all the Islamac states as you said ,and Israel.
There will never be peace in the middle east whilst Israel survives, never.
So here is another idea, why not give the jews some of Australia? there is plenty of land here and all the christians here would be very welcomming, wouldn't they?

peacefully dissolving israel is an idea.
The islamics would not stop at that - they want the world under sharia or martyrdom.

Also, I would not be too keen to leave my homelands because other people refused to recognise me and continually rocketed me.
Esp if I thought they would hound me wherever I went anyway.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 8:15am:

Even if Hamas made their headquarters in the school, firing missiles on it would still be a war crime.

This is a neat an example of double standards as any - there is a much, much greater expectation, a demand even, that Israel act according to strict moral standards. No such expectation exists towards the jihadis, not even among their sympathisers and apologists.

Sprint...  if the Muslims were successful in defeating Israel...  how do you think they would react and how would they then look upon the rest of the world?

Quote:

Also, I would not be too keen to leave my homelands because other people refused to recognise me and continually rocketed me. Esp if I thought they would hound me wherever I went anyway.

But would they hound the Jews if they left?  What excuse did the Germans have to hound them?  They weren't Muslims.

And Sprintcylist - would you really want to live in Israel surrounded by Arabs who hated you.  I would put my children first and live somewhere a little safer.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 8:54am:

Calanen does that somehow justify firing on schools or something?

The school where the former headmaster (dispatched by Mossad) was Hamas' chief rocket maker.

mod: original flame deleted



Quote:

and the most worrying part is you think you're fighting a violent and barbaric ideology,

I dont expect you to help me, so the fact that you are violently disagreeing with me, means I am on the right track.


Quote:

when it is yourself who obviously subscribes to the violent and barbaric ideology, one where justifying and accepting dropping bombs on schools is routine.

If it ever becomes routine it is because the savvy Hamas barbarians love to hide amongst civilians, so that Israel faces the difficult choice of either letting them fire at them with immunity, or, risking more civilian casualties by firing back.  Using civilian locations, hospitals, mosques, schools, apartment blocks as military HQs - now that is barbaric. Hamas hiding behind the skirts of their women and children. Allah akbar indeed.


Quote:

So long as you can come up with a good excuse for doing it...

If my men are being hit with a mortar team thats in a hospital, a mosque, a school, surrounded by little kids having a tea party - that mortar team is going down. And if there are civilian casualties, that's regrettable, but their cause was 1) Hamas hiding amongst civilians 2) Hamas firing from a civilian location at Israel.

Protected locations, civilian buildings lose their protected status once they are used for military purposes. So Israel does not commit a war crime by shelling a Hamas mortar team in a school. It's regrettable for the civilians who were hiding there also however, but Hamas is the author of their misfortune.

Israelis have always been surrounded by other tribes mantra...  nothing new in that.  Some unfriendly ones too.

They have as much right to be there as those calling themselves palestinians.

mantra wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 11:49am:

Quote: Also, I would not be too keen to leave my homelands because other people refused to recognise me and continually rocketed me. Esp if I thought they would hound me wherever I went anyway. But would they hound the Jews if they left?  What excuse did the Germans have to hound them?  They weren't Muslims. And Sprintcylist - would you really want to live in Israel surrounded by Arabs who hated you.  I would put my children first and live somewhere a little safer.

So if muslims become violent enough in Australia with their jihad you leave Australia to them? I'm not going to - I will stay and fight.

Quote:

2nd choice, disolve Israel send all the jews back to the USA and South Africa and the few there from Europe, and bring peace to the middle east and the world

Yes, because there was peace in the Middle East before Israel existed. How about you crack open a book or two and read about the violent warfare that followed the rise of Mohammed, the conquest of Spain, the Byzantine Empire, the attempted takeover of France, the Siege of Vienna by the Muslims. No Israel to blame it one then.

Or how about the Barbary States (what is now Libya, Morocco) attacking the USA in 1780s and 1790s. Did the Caliph of the Barbary States have a crystal ball and was punishing the newly created US Republic for Bush foreign policy decisions 220 or so years later? Thomas Jefferson, the Ambassador for France was dumbfounded as to why these Barbary States kept attacking US shipping, stealing their goods and selling their sailors into slavery. Why, the US was a new country, it had no quarrel with these states - had never done anything wrong to them.

So Jefferson, being ever the diplomat went to speak with the Ambassador to France for the Barbary States when Jefferson was the US Ambassador to France, he asked him, saying the US is a new country, we have no quarrel with you, why do you keep attacking our shipping?  Remember this is in 1789. Here is what the Ambassador for the Barbary States told him:


Quote:

During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts. In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/jeff_quran.htm

Jefferson advised Congress that these people could not be bargained with or dealt with. Congress however, agreed to pay a fifth of the US budget as 'tribute' or jizyah to protect US shipping from the Barbary states.

Jefferson bougth a Koran and read it, and realised, there was no possibility of negotiation.

By the time Jefferson was inaugurated in 1801 as President, Jefferson was sick of paying jizyah so that the Muslims would not attack US shipping. So he sent in the Marines, and smashed the Barbary states. That was where the USMC fight song gets 'The shores of Tripoli.'

You really need to change out of the Emperor's New Clothes and smell the coffee. It's not about *you* and how nice you are, or your foreign policy, or your aid to people, or Israel, or the American Indians, or whatever other bulls*** excuse is presented.

It's about Islam which says that it absolutely must not stop until it destroys and dominates the whole world. That cant be reasoned with, or bargained with or mercy given or expected. The lesson of Jefferson is one for us all. We can either be supporters of the craven cowardly congress of 1789 paying jizyah to the Muslims and tip towing around their sensibilities doing exactly what they want, so they become the controllers of our policies through the threat of terror.

Or we can say 'Enough' and send in the Marines. I opt for Jefferson's strategy.

And in 1789, there wasnt Israel. Or George W for the Barbary States to blame their behaviour on. But there was Islam, and there was the same behaviour for the same reasons.

Islam says that it must rule over everything else, through the use of force to subjugate all other peoples and other religions and other societies to its will. There is one law - sharia law. All other laws are fake and can be ignored. There is one government, sharia government and the government of the Koran and sharia. All other laws and governments are fake and must be destroyed.

So until you clueless moonbats get through your thicks skulls that you cant negotiate, you cant reason, you cant change any of those precepts of the religion by being nice. This is war.

calanen, I dont give a  toss about the past, I mean I could be  anal and bang on about the crusades et all, but alas life is to short to bother.
We are in the present and Israel will always be a problem, somtimes because of Palestine and other times because of Israel, there will never be peace while Israel exists, cant you see that?
I can tell you one thing, Israel will never win, so instead of the jews dragging the world into another world war Israel should cut their losses and pizz off.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 8:39am:

Firstly the Palestinians have known for a very long time that even if they were to be 'hiding in schools' that the IDF would have few qualms about firing on them, so there's very little incentive for them to do so, which just blows this whole human shields nonsense to pieces. Secondly, not a single IDF fault can be found, in media reports, because they always have these excuses, 100% of the time, without fail, even though some of their own soldiers have at times broken rank and admitted it's all a load of crap. And the sad thing is, ignoramuses such as yourself never twig... Not to worry.

Their incentive is to sacrifice children for a news headline. Most of the time the sacrifice wasn't even worth that pultry exchange because most people have now worked out what Hamas is doing.

Hamas bare 100% of the blame for those children's death, not Isreal.

skippy - if israel runs, what will the islamics worldwide do ???

locutius wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 12:37pm:

Their incentive is to sacrifice children for a news headline. Most of the time the sacrifice wasn't even worth that pultry exchange because most people have now worked out what Hamas is doing. Hamas bare 100% of the blame for those children's death, not Isreal.

I know I said I would never post here again...but really, I just cant let this ignorance and complete disdain for human life to pass.

So let me get this straight...Israel bomb a UN school, which was quite clearly marked, where a number of civilians were hiding in refuge, where there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Hamas were using the school in any way (except for the usual Israeli propaganda), killing scores of civilians, including children...

And you still insist that HAMAS is to blame.

Tell me Locuitus..is there any incident....any at all, where you would or could even remotely lay blame..any blame on the IDF.

ANY?

Seems that no matter what the IDF do, you will blame the arabs. Its convenient isn't it. IDF kills civilians...its Hamas fault. IDF shoot Palestinian children...its HAMAS's fault.

Pretty convenient huh.....doesn't matter how horrible the act, or attroctious the crime...anything that the Israeli's do can and will be blamed on the arabs....right Locuitus.

Like seriously...I'm in interested in knowing....is their any circumstance in which you would take a step back...and lay blame on the IDF.

Yet your despicable logic for some reason doesn't work both ways. After 60 years of persecution and oppression, for some reason you don't believe that Palestinians have the right to self defence.

When Palestinians murder an innocent Israeli....do you blame Israel for the death? Of course not.

So despite the fact that Palestinians have suffered at the hands of Israel for decades...any Isreali death at the hands of the Palestinians..is a act to be condemned, and those who did the killings are to blame.

Yet, whenever the IDF kill a Palestinian...it is in fact the Palestinians, and not the Israeli's who is at fault.

Even despite the fact far far more innocent Palestinians have been murdered by the Israel then vice versa...you can't look past your bigotry and hate, and still insist on blaming the victims...the Palestinians for their plight.

For someone who once claimed he doesn't 'hate', your bigotry is staggering.

And just like that....you accept the Israeli's lies.

I suggest you do some research. For 6 months, HAMAS had a truce with the IDF. For 6 months HAMAS DID NOT fire rockets into Israel, and stopped numerous other Palestinian organisations from doing so.

Yes, they did not manage to stop them all...however, the fact is neither could the PA or even the IDF themselves, when they occupied Gaza.

As a part of the truce, it was agreed that Israel would release Gaza from the illegal blockade...which in itself is an act of war. Israel never did this..so from day one they had broken the truce.

Dispite this, HAMAS still did not fire rockets, and stuck to the truce. How were they repaid.....by targetted killings and numerous bombings and incusions by the Israeli military.

Don't believe me...fine, I don't expect you too. Do you own research. Fact is...in the 6 months of the truce, not one Israeli was killed by an attack from HAMAS. Not one.

In that time...scores of Palestinians have been killed by Israel...including woman and children. These are the facts...and none of your spin or IDF propaganda can change that.

The 6 months truce meant calm for Israeli citizens...in the meantime Israel increased its stranglehold on Gaza, continued to enforce its blockade, and continued its criminal activities which included targetting killings and indiscriminate bombings.

HAMAS could not renew such an agreement.

But of course.....I forgot...you believe that anything that Israel does can ultimately be blamed on HAMAS. I forgot.....your bigotry means that anything that Israel says...is to be believed.

And the sad thing is....this has all happened before. When Israel bombed the bejesus out of Lebennon...killing 1000 civilians...once again, it wasn't Israel's fault was it...no, ofcourse, Hezbollah was to blame. And now when Israel do like wise to Gaza..its Hamas fault.

I think I'm beginning to notice a pattern here. Seems that Israel are never to blame for any one they kill or any attrocitiy they commit. Its not their fault..no, its the muslims.  

Yes, I forgot, all muslims are evil....yes...we get it.

Lestat wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 12:58pm:

. When Israel bombed the bejesus out of Lebennon...killing 1000 civilians...once again, it wasn't Israel's fault was it...no, ofcourse, Hezbollah was to blame. And now when Israel do like wise to Gaza..its Hamas fault.

See..... it's not so complex.

locutius wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 1:59pm:

Lestat wrote on Jan 7th, 2009 at 12:58pm: . When Israel bombed the bejesus out of Lebennon...killing 1000 civilians...once again, it wasn't Israel's fault was it...no, ofcourse, Hezbollah was to blame. And now when Israel do like wise to Gaza..its Hamas fault. See..... it's not so complex.

of course not, its simple...and rather convenient. Israel is never to blame...its those evil muslims again.

And this works fine for you,  you can justify your hate....again.

Oh dear....  Hamas...  terrorists continually bombing Israel...
Israel sovereign state putting up with crap for years, finally decided enough was enough.  Oh poor innocent Hamas, hiding amongst the populace.

Enough IS enough...  I hope Israel kill every single Hamas terrorist and free the Palestinians who want to live in peace from their stupid suicidal ideology.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 10:44am:

Quote: That is just survival not a religious issue. In most wars, the political/nationalistic, motivations, are pretty clear, but whenever an Islamic state is involved, that changes, because the church is the state, and the state is the church.

just one question. if palestinians were not majority muslim, if they were catholic or even secular- do you think that they would not have fought back against the creation of israel?

Grendel wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 10:47am:

My point Mozz is that the Israeli reaction is that based on continuous harrassment and attacks.  They aren't doing it because they are Muslims.  Hence the reason for the response is NOT a religious one.

similarly the reason for the attacks are not religious ones either

funnily enough. if muslims created a state based on holy ground, upon the claim that their religion said this was their promised land- if they then dispossessed the people living there and continued to take over land even the UN itself divided the land up for co-existence, if they continually barred AID- food, water, money etc- from getting to these people and broke cease fires with them- I'm pretty sure you'd be saying it was because of their religion.

yet when it comes to israel- you don't see the connection. fascinating.

Quote:

Fair enough Grendel, I certainly would not argue that point. Personally I think the Israelis have been pretty restrained in their response to continuous terror attacks on them.

why is it that palestinian attacks are called terror attacks but israeli attacks are just called warfare?


Quote:

I certainly believe that if the average aussie had a neighbour firing rockets at them, we would expect the army to go and sort them out, quick smart.

palestine isn't their neighbour- theyre the dispossessed people's who belong the the land currently occupied by israel, some of it illegally occupied as recognised by the UN (although some would argue the whole occupation is 'illegal')

lestat - why would kids be going to school while a war is on ?
Would they not be running away ?
Or was it a shield for hamas to send rockets ????

Same way that hamas hide amongst the general population, who in turn hide them and have voted them in.

Quote:

calanen, I dont give a  toss about the past, I mean I could be  anal and bang on about the crusades et all, but alas life is to short to bother.

I really doubt you'd know anything about the Crusades. They are another part of the Revisionist Hate Yourself Counter-Culture that is pseudo trendy to believe.

The point of the past is that the beliefs of Islam were the same. The behavior was the same. Except there was no Israel to blame.

King Richard the Lionheart's coat of arms still proudly hangs in all courts New South Wales, and so it should. He realised, as do some politicians today, that the only way to defeat Islam is to go where they live. Not wait around for the next attack.

But feel free to debate them with me at any time.


Quote:

We are in the present and Israel will always be a problem, somtimes because of Palestine and other times because of Israel, there will never be peace while Israel exists, cant you see that?

No - there will never be peace while Islam is not in charge. And I dont want Islam to be in charge. I dont respect their religion, or their beliefs, and I dont care if they are offended.

I dont want to be a dhimmi with no rights under some Islamofacist regime or help them get there to prove how politically correct and tolerant I am. They use our democracy, to destroy our democracy. The freedom to assemble, meet and worship is just used to plot in excruciating detail, our demise and teh demise of our society and culture. I've got a truckload of documents to back that up and I am writing a book about it.

I dont blame people too much for not knowing any better - they just dont.

As to Israel - the UK had control over all of Palestine. They gave 80% to create Jordan. They gave 10% to the Palestinians. And they gave 10% to the Jews which formed Israel. What was so 'unfair' about that. The UK didnt have to give 100 per cent of anything to anyone.  The Jews moved their as immigrants, like immigrants have moved to Australia, to the UK, to places all over the world.

The big difference being that in the BMP - the Arabs, because of their Islamic beliefs, immediately attacked and killed the Jews. And the Jews fought back. And then the UK was stuck in the middle. If the Arabs had just got along with the people there like us tolerant westerners, there would never have been a problem.

Can you imagine how Saudi Arabia, or Egypt or Iran or any of those places would deal with all Christians if a group of Christian terrorists blew up their subway? It wouldnt be as tolerant as we have been.

And because Arabic muslims living the BMP have the god given right to exterminate Jewish immigrants, those immigrants need to pack up and leave? What a load of bs.

I had a conversation with a Palestinian who said 'We have a right to kill the Jews. They dont belong in our country. Never did. They come to our country as immigrants, buy our land and so on, bring their religion and their stupid culture. We dont want them they dont belong so we have the right to kill them. If someone comes to your land, and has a different culture, and you were here first, you would kill them to yes?"

So I say to him 'So I dont like Palestinians in Australia, do I have the right to kill them?'

"Er, no...er..well, Australia is a tolerant country everyone is welcome here. It's different.'

So why is it different? Why do the arabs have the right to kill Jewish immigrants who settled within the British Empire - but everyone has to put up with the far more poorly behaved Arabic immigrants in the name of tolerance?


Quote:

I can tell you one thing, Israel will never win, so instead of the jews dragging the world into another world war Israel should cut their losses and pizz off.

They won in 1948.

They won in 1967

They won in 1973.

So they are going to win. It's just a question of when.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 12:55pm:

skippy - if israel runs, what will the islamics worldwide do ???

000
Who knows, who cares? they wont be bombing Israel.
You see unlike you I dont think muslims are trying to take over the world anymore than I think christians are, all religion is evil and manipulative some just a little more than others.
I'm not sticking up for Islam sprint, I hate Islam and what it stands for but I also hate judaism, its just as bad, so I'm looking at the situation as one side verse the other and the jews aint playing fair.

I'm sorry gaybriel but your reasoning is just too idiotic for me to bother with.

gaza isn't next to israel...  ROTFLMAO

Grendel wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:29pm:

Oh dear....  Hamas...  terrorists continually bombing Israel... Israel sovereign state putting up with crap for years, finally decided enough was enough.  Oh poor innocent Hamas, hiding amongst the populace.

lol...more zionist lies.

As I said earlier, for the duration of the truce, Hamas did not fire any rockets into Israel. Hamas upheld their end of the truce.

Unfortunately the same can't be said about Israel, who in violation of the truce continued the blockage of Gaza, and routinely killed Hamas leaders, in addition to innocent civilians.

And as for hiding amongst the populace. Do you not know that Gaza is one of the most populated places on the planet. And what you seem to fail to understand, is that Hamas is the elected government of Palestine...yes, in case your pea sized brain has already forgotten, they did win the last democratic elections in Palestine.

This is something that the zionist propaganda machine seems intent in making people forget. Fact is that of course Hamas, being the govt, has offices in civilian area's, just like Aust, and every other country in the world has govt offices in civlian area's.

Of course, Israel has not only bombed Hamas military sites, but they have also bombed its civil offices, which of course are in civlian area's.

They then turn around and accuse Hamas of hiding amongst the populace. This is ridiculous and anyone with half a brain can see it for the nonsense that it is.

It would be like bombing centre link offices and then blaming the Aust. govt for hiding in civilian areas. Ludicrous, and nothing but spin to justify the attrocities committed by a country which has a long history of attrocities.

As mentioned earlier..in your sick mind, anything that Israel does to any arab or muslim is completely justified...anything. And you and your zionist buddies will use any means possible to justify the killing, and more importantly..to allow it to continue.

Unfortunately for you....most sane people has seen the Israeli actions for what they are.


Grendel wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:29pm:

Enough IS enough...  I hope Israel kill every single Hamas terrorist and free the Palestinians who want to live in peace from their stupid suicidal ideology.

Is this the same Hamas that the Palestinian people voted for in the last elections. But hey....lets not let the facts get in the way of our deluded fantasies.

It isn't Hamas that is killing, persecuting and oppressing the Palestinian people. It is the Israeli's. They were doing so long before Hamas was around, and they will continue to do it until they are forced to stop. And their is only one way they will stop...when their own people force them to stop. And this will only happen when Israeli's start suffering, the same way that the IDF has caused the Palestinians to suffer.

Only when the Israeli's have a taste of the Palestinians have been living with for the past 60 years...only then, will they truly want peace.

And lets be honest here...you hope that Israel kills every last single Palestinians..cause after all, they're all terrorists in your view.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:44pm:

lestat - why would kids be going to school while a war is on ? Would they not be running away ? Or was it a shield for hamas to send rockets ???? Same way that hamas hide amongst the general population, who in turn hide them and have voted them in.

sigh....

Have you not even read the reports.

They were not going to school...many were hiding in the school, seeking refuge from the attacks.

They believed that being a UN school, clearly identifiable, that it would not be attacked.

Unfortunately they were wrong. Israel have made quite a habit of attacking schools over the years.

oh dear and YOU have not read the reports that rocket attacks came from the schools vicinity...


Oh and BTW tank shells happen to be a tad bigger than bullets.   ::)

If idiot Hamas terrorists were setting off rockets near me I'd make sure me and my loved ones were nowhere near them.

Unless of course you are trying to say that terrorism is so widespread that nearly all palestinians supprort or carry out such behaviour.

Quote:

I'm not sticking up for Islam sprint, I hate Islam and what it stands for but I also hate judaism, its just as bad,

Just as bad? Where is the Jewish Al Quada, the Jewish Taliban. When was the last time a Jew hijacked an airplane and flew into the WTC? Where are the Jews calling for the extermiantion of peoples and countries, or going berserk and setting fire to embassies because of one of the thousands of ebil joo cartoons is printed in the Arabic press?

But as soon as one Danish newspaper posts some cartoons, the skies falling and we need to have huge protests around the world because of teh defamation of Islam. That's far more offensive than Osama Bin Laden or AQ supposedly 'defaming' Islam by invoking it to kill thousands of people. No worldwide protests there.


Quote:

so I'm looking at the situation as one side verse the other and the jews aint playing fair.

Playing fair? What the hell are you talking about? This isnt a game of soccer. Israel left Gaza, to give it back to the Arabs in 2005. And they have just used it as a staging post to fire rockets into Israel. Hamas own charter says they are committed to the destruction of Israel. How do you negotiate with someone like that?

You need a big dose of reality. What is your foreign policy solution. Israel stays in Gaza, and there are rocket attacks to protest the occupation. They leave Gaza, and they use the new freedom to bring more rocket attacks. They lift the blockades and more weapons come in from Iran and Egypt. They close the borders and there is a humanitarian crisis.

If one rocket came into my backyard Id be wanting the government to fight back. The Jews put up with thousands, Im imagining because the US told them not to hit back and there would be a negotiated solution. But HAMAS is frigging nuts. They are suicide bombers and fanatics - you cant negotiate with them. So the USA would have given Israel the green light to take them out.

The plan is probably to let Al Fatah take over Gaza again.

Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

I really doubt you'd know anything about the Crusades. They are another part of the Revisionist Hate Yourself Counter-Culture that is pseudo trendy to believe.

Given your propensity to blame arabs for the attrocites committed by Israel against innocent civilians, forgive us if we don't take your views on the crusades to seriously.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

The point of the past is that the beliefs of Islam were the same. The behavior was the same. Except there was no Israel to blame.

What was that about revisionist history?

We taught your ancestors to stop bathing in their own sh(t...and don't you forget it.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

King Richard the Lionheart's coat of arms still proudly hangs in all courts New South Wales, and so it should. He realised, as do some politicians today, that the only way to defeat Islam is to go where they live. Not wait around for the next attack.

Of course...killing all the occupants of a village and then eating their remains is something we should all be proud of.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

But feel free to debate them with me at any time.

I will...


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

No - there will never be peace while Islam is not in charge.

I know  you'd like to make the whole Palestine/Israel issue about religon, but the fact is, it is not. It is about land. Israel does not distinguish between Palestinian muslims/Christians.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

And I dont want Islam to be in charge. I dont respect their religion, or their beliefs, and I dont care if they are offended.

Thats ok...because I don't respect your religon or your beliefs. And why should I be offended what you think? That would imply that we care...and quite frankly, we don't.

On the contrary...if someone like you did respect my beliefs..then I would take a good hard look at myself.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

I dont want to be a dhimmi with no rights under some Islamofacist regime or help them get there to prove how politically correct and tolerant I am. They use our democracy, to destroy our democracy. The freedom to assemble, meet and worship is just used to plot in excruciating detail, our demise and teh demise of our society and culture. I've got a truckload of documents to back that up and I am writing a book about it.

lol...this is all really nonsense, and all it does is makes you look like a paranoid schizophrenic.

I was born here, and have lived here all my life. Tell me...what have I ever done to 'destroy your democracy'.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

I dont blame people too much for not knowing any better - they just dont.

You must lead a very depressing life....continuously living in fear...looking under your bed making sure that the 'muzzies' aren't coming to get you.

Your living in the wrong time...your would of been right at home during the McArthy era.


Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

As to Israel - the UK had control over all of Palestine. They gave 80% to create Jordan. They gave 10% to the Palestinians. And they gave 10% to the Jews which formed Israel. What was so 'unfair' about that. The UK didnt have to give 100 per cent of anything to anyone.  The Jews moved their as immigrants, like immigrants have moved to Australia, to the UK, to places all over the world.

Firstly, it was never the UK's land to give. The zionists then used terror tactics to force Palestinians to flee and then stole additional land, and the fact is now, that 10% you mention has increased to 24%.

So I take it that if the UK had decided to give the jews part of Australia, where you happen to live, and then they began terrorising you, forcing you to leave, and they then stole your land and home, and forced your into a tiny strip of land, and commenced to oppress you for the next 50 years.. you would have no objections.

Calanen wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 3:07pm:

Quote: I'm not sticking up for Islam sprint, I hate Islam and what it stands for but I also hate judaism, its just as bad, Just as bad? Where is the Jewish Al Quada, the Jewish Taliban. When was the last time a Jew hijacked an airplane and flew into the WTC? Where are the Jews calling for the extermiantion of peoples and countries, or going berserk and setting fire to embassies because of one of the thousands of ebil joo cartoons is printed in the Arabic press? But as soon as one Danish newspaper posts some cartoons, the skies falling and we need to have huge protests around the world because of teh defamation of Islam. That's far more offensive than Osama Bin Laden or AQ supposedly 'defaming' Islam by invoking it to kill thousands of people. No worldwide protests there. [quote]so I'm looking at the situation as one side verse the other and the jews aint playing fair.

Playing fair? What the hell are you talking about? This isnt a game of soccer. Israel left Gaza, to give it back to the Arabs in 2005. And they have just used it as a staging post to fire rockets into Israel. Hamas own charter says they are committed to the destruction of Israel. How do you negotiate with someone like that?

You need a big dose of reality. What is your foreign policy solution. Israel stays in Gaza, and there are rocket attacks to protest the occupation. They leave Gaza, and they use the new freedom to bring more rocket attacks. They lift the blockades and more weapons come in from Iran and Egypt. They close the borders and there is a humanitarian crisis.

If one rocket came into my backyard Id be wanting the government to fight back. The Jews put up with thousands, Im imagining because the US told them not to hit back and there would be a negotiated solution. But HAMAS is frigging nuts. They are suicide bombers and fanatics - you cant negotiate with them. So the USA would have given Israel the green light to take them out.

The plan is probably to let Al Fatah take over Gaza again.[/quote]



Look we are alike YOU hate muslims while I hate all religion , are you a jew calanen?, you seem to be a mighty big apoligist for those Israeli murderers, or maybe you're just a sucker for the zionist neo con propa ganda, let me guess you're also a right whinger who believes in god, I'm right arn't I,typical.

But Skippy...  you are hardly ever right.  ;D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

Lestat wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 3:18pm:

I know  you'd like to make the whole Palestine/Israel issue about religon, but the fact is, it is not. It is about land. Israel does not distinguish between Palestinian muslims/Christians.

It is about religion, about islam. It is about land only in so far as it is 'muslim' land.

remind us - Israel pulled out of gaza in 2005. It was completely judenfrei. The land was cleared of joos. Still, since hamas was elected in 2006, they fired thousands of rockets into Israel - which was NOT occupying gaza.
Why?


Quote:

The zionists then used terror tactics to force Palestinians to flee...

yeah, tactics like being attacked by Arab armies on day 1. Wily joos, eh?

Grendel wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 2:57pm:

I'm sorry gaybriel but your reasoning is just too idiotic for me to bother with. gaza isn't next to israel...  ROTFLMAO

I didn't say that it wasn't next to israel

complexity isn't your forte is it?

Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 5:24pm:

It is about religion, about islam. It is about land only in so far as it is 'muslim' land.

Well actually, no it isn't about religon, though I understand that a bigot like you would like to make it appear so, as in your sick mind it would justify the murder of woman.

However, I think you'll find that Palestinian Christians would strongly disagree with you, having been at the receiving end of those 'loving Israelis' numerous times.

Why don't you ask Serb Erakat, a Palestinian Christians whether his fight against Israeli oppression if its about 'religon'.


Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 5:24pm:

remind us - Israel pulled out of gaza in 2005. It was completely judenfrei. The land was cleared of joos. Still, since hamas was elected in 2006, they fired thousands of rockets into Israel - which was NOT occupying gaza. Why?

What pullout? Do you mean the one where Israel abandoned a hand full of illegal settlements, only to create even more illegal settlements in WestBank.

The one where Israel ensured that Gaza would turn into the worlds largest prison, where they controlled all Gaza's borders, air space and sea ports....pretty much isolating Gaza's residents from the outside world.

Right...the pullout which, really, wasn't much a pullout at all, given that Israel still had (and still has) complete control over what and who goes in and out of Palestine.

Then again...it appears that this PR stunt fooled those with little understanding of..which ofcourse includes you.


Soren wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 5:24pm:

yeah, tactics like being attacked by Arab armies on day 1. Wily joos, eh?

lol...once again spoken like someone who has no idea or clue about the history of the conflict.

You do realise that the zionists were arriving in Palestine long before the 48 war...actually at the turn of the centery.

Ever heard of Irgun and Stern.....or the massacre at Deir al-Yassin.

I suggest you go and learn something before making yourself look foolish.

Good grief...  neighbour, next to, next to, neighbour...  oh dear you need to get a life gaybriel.  And stop playing Muslim apologist silly-buggers.

Anyway...if Grendel would go away and allow the adults to continue.

This was in the AGE today...

-----------------------------

Gaza: the great divide - 1
Khalid Meshaal
January 7, 2009
FOR 18 months my people in Gaza have been under siege, incarcerated inside the world's biggest prison, sealed off from land, air and sea, caged and starved, denied medication for our sick. After the slow-death policy came the bombardment.

In this most densely populated of places, nothing has been spared Israel's planes, from government buildings to homes, mosques, hospitals, schools and markets. More than 540 have been killed and thousands permanently maimed. A third are women and children. Whole families have been massacred.

This river of blood is being shed under lies and false pretexts. For six months we in Hamas observed the ceasefire. Israel broke it repeatedly from the start. Israel was required to open crossings to Gaza, and extend the truce to the West Bank. It proceeded to tighten its deadly siege of Gaza, repeatedly cutting electricity and water supplies. The collective punishment accelerated, as did the assassinations and killings. Thirty Gazans were killed by Israeli fire and hundreds of patients died as a direct effect of the siege during the so-called ceasefire. Israel enjoyed a period of calm. Our people did not.

When this broken truce neared its end, we expressed our readiness for a new comprehensive truce in return for lifting the blockade and opening all Gaza border crossings, including Rafah. Our calls fell on deaf ears. Yet still we would be willing to begin a new truce on these terms following the complete withdrawal of the invading forces from Gaza.

No rockets have ever been fired from the West Bank. But 50 died and hundreds more were injured there last year at Israel's hands, while its expansionism proceeded relentlessly. We are meant to be content with shrinking scraps of territory, a handful of cantons at Israel's mercy, enclosed by it from all sides. The truth is Israel seeks a one-sided ceasefire, observed by my people alone, in return for siege, starvation, bombardment, assassinations, incursions, and colonial settlement. What Israel wants is a gratuitous ceasefire.

The logic of those who demand that we stop our resistance is absurd. They absolve the aggressor and occupier, armed with the deadliest weapons of death and destruction, of responsibility, while blaming the victim, prisoner and occupied. Our modest, home-made rockets are our cry of protest to the world. Israel and its American and European sponsors want us to be killed in silence. But die in silence we will not.

What is being visited on Gaza today was visited on Yasser Arafat before. When he refused to bow to Israel's dictates, he was imprisoned in his Ramallah headquarters, surrounded by tanks for two years. When this failed to break his resolve, he was murdered by poisoning.

Gaza enters 2009 just as it did 2008: under Israeli fire. Between January and February of last year 140 Gazans died in air strikes. And just before it embarked on its failed military assault on Lebanon in July 2006, Israel rained thousands of shells on Gaza, killing 240. From Deir Yassin in 1948 to Gaza today, the list of Israel's crimes is long. The justifications change, but the reality is the same: colonial occupation, oppression, and never-ending injustice. If this is the "free world" whose "values" Israel is defending as Tzipi Livni alleges, then we want nothing to do with it.

Israel's leaders remain in the grip of confusion, unable to set clear goals for the attacks, from ousting the legitimately elected Hamas Government and destroying its infrastructure to stopping the rockets. As they fail to break Gaza's resistance, the benchmark has been lowered. Now they speak of weakening Hamas and limiting the resistance. But they will achieve neither. Gaza's people are more united than ever, determined not to be terrorised into submission.

Our fighters, armed with the justice of their cause, have already caused many casualties among the occupation army and will fight on to defend their land and people. Nothing can defeat our will to be free.

Once again, Washington and Europe have opted to aid and abet the jailer, occupier and aggressor, and to condemn its victims. We hoped Barack Obama would break with George Bush's disastrous legacy but his start is not encouraging. While he swiftly moved to denounce the Mumbai attacks, he remains tongue-tied after 10 days of slaughter in Gaza.

But my people are not alone. Millions of freedom-loving men and women stand by its struggle for justice and liberation — witness daily protests worldwide against Israeli aggression.

Israel will no doubt wreak untold destruction, death and suffering in Gaza. But it will meet the same fate in Gaza as it did in Lebanon.

We will not be broken by siege and bombardment, and will never surrender to occupation.

GUARDIAN

Insha'allah the Palestinians will have victory and there will come a day when the Israeli murderers will be held accountable for their attrocities.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Suicide+and+Other+Bombing+Attacks+in+Israel+Since.htm

You haven't changed with the sourcing of your "facts" have you Grendel?

Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs - are you serious?  How about something unbiased for a change?

Just a comment on "Gaza: the great divide - 1" - The suffering of the Palestinians has become almost unbearable even to read about let alone live under those conditions.  But like many oppressed people from developing or third world nations or war zones - they fade into irrelevance.

Have you ever asked yourself Grendel why some Muslims have become suicide bombers and why so recently in their history?  

Oh dear just whom do you think would have better records on terrorist attacks on Israel mantra...  honestly you are a worry.

Who tracked down the german war criminals through record keeping and investigation...  wakey wakey mantra....  they ar very good and accurate at keeping records.

Oh and BTW mantra dig a bit yourself and you'll see it goes on before the "occupation" of any land.

Yes I know Grendel - the Jews are the "Chosen People".

BTW I had a look at the deaths on the Israel Foreign Ministry site and there have been approximately 1500 Jewish people killed since 1948.

Yet when ascertaining how many Palestinians have been killed since 1948 - it says there are more than 2 million.

Surely that can't be right.  The big bad Palestinians haven't been overly successful in wiping out the Jews - but the Jews have certainly wiped out plenty of Arabs.  You wonder why they're angry.  

They were all terrorists though Mantra, or terrorist-sympathisers at least, or probably human shields for terrorists, or at the very least 'collateral damage' that was an unfortunate yet necessary occurance...

Or if that spin doesn't work, they deserved it anyway, bad luck, because they fought a war and lost it. Losers die, tough!

I wonder if any of the pro-Israeli extremists here has bothered watching any Arabic coverage of the crisis? al-Jazeera English is available to watch online. I wonder if actually seeing the realities, the casualties, the bodies all over the place etc. would soften their hearts a little. Obviously it wouldn't work for Calanen, as he thinks this is all some bizarre theatrical performance for the sake of international sympathy, but perhaps some of the others might have a mustard's seed of mercy left in their blackened and hardened hearts...

Certainly filling your minds with pro-Israeli propaganda all day from the mainstream Zionist-dominated media can't really give you a fair and balanced view. I challenge those, who claim to be rational and logically thinking people, to actually examine the situation from the other side. I am exposed to both sides, and I think it gives me a fairly balanced view, it helps also to weed out the clear and obvious propaganda that's quite obviously appearing on both sides of this issue.

Grendel,


Quote:

Oh and BTW mantra dig a bit yourself and you'll see it goes on before the "occupation" of any land.

Before the commencement of the occupation (in 1948) there were very few Jews there.

Are you still under some delusion Jews havve lived there for 3000 years and this is just a continuation of that? Prior to the 20th. century there was virtually no Jews there for 2000 years, you still must come to terms with this fact. They are a newly introduced people in the region.

And as I've asked you enough times already, if you can accept the 2% minority of Muslims in Australia turning Australia into an Islamic state and herding the current Australians into refugee camps and bombing the crap out of them everytime they attempt to resist or defend their land/homes, then I can accept your view about the occupation of Palestine. Until then, your view on the occupation isn't worth the electrons it's printed on.

Quote:

And as I've asked you enough times already, if you can accept the 2% minority of Muslims in Australia turning Australia into an Islamic state and herding the current Australians into refugee camps and bombing the crap out of them everytime they attempt to resist or defend their land/homes, then I can accept your view about the occupation of Palestine. Until then, your view on the occupation isn't worth the electrons it's printed on.

It's a stupid example that is not comparable to the facts of Israel or the BMP in any way. It's called the Straw Man fallacy.


Quote:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man," one describes a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view, yet is easier to refute. Then, one attributes that position to the opponent. For example, someone might deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] While a straw man argument may work as a rhetorical technique—and succeed in persuading people—it carries little or no real evidential weight, since the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Quote:

It's a stupid example that is not comparable to the facts of Israel or the BMP in any way.

It's not comparable in your mind because you don't want to think about the reality of it. It either invalidates your support for Israel or it invalidates your irrational fear of Muslims in Australia, or both.

The fact is the figures are exactly the same. In the last Ottoman census of the Sanjack (province) in the late 1890's, Jews were no more than 2% of the population, exactly the same as Muslims in Australia today. They were just another religious minority like Muslims are in Australia today.

You keep using the term 'BMP' as if to negate the Palestinians connection to their land. But this is about as pointless as saying if we give 75% of Australia and Canada to Anglos, then it's fine for the remaining 25% to become an Islamic state. It's just ridiculous, and I can't believe you think it actually constitutes an argument.

Now again, I ask you and all those who support Israel and who call for the eradication of the Palestinians and support the military action in Gaza, to consider how you'd react to a 2% minority in your country mass immigrating (illegally mind you) and then turning it into a state purely for their religion/ethnicity. How would you respond if relegated to a refugee camp? To having your house bulldozed and an exclusive Muslim-only settlement built over it's rubble? I know you have a bit of a militaristic streak in you Calanen, how would you react to such a situation? Ghandi style? Or al-Qassam style?

Quote:

It's not comparable in your mind because you don't want to think about the reality of it.

It's not comparable simply because it's not comparable.

Australia is an independent state. It is not owned by anyone else. It wasn't part of the Turkish Empire for 400 years.  So the first mistake is that there was no independent Palestine, nor even the term until the BMP.


Quote:

It either invalidates your support for Israel or it invalidates your irrational fear of Muslims in Australia, or both.

No it does none of those things, nor does it support any of your arguments. It is just a superficial rhetorical argument with no substance.


Quote:

The fact is the figures are exactly the same. In the last Ottoman census of the Sanjack (province) in the late 1890's, Jews were no more than 2% of the population, exactly the same as Muslims in Australia today. They were just another religious minority like Muslims are in Australia today.

So what. If at the time that the UK was giving us our independence, the English had decided to exterminate the Irish, and the UK said we are going to give you independence on the basis that 10% of the land goes to the Irish and 90% goes to the English to keep you people apart because you cant live together, that sounds like a sensible solution. If instead the English said no thats not good enough, we have to exterminate all of those dirty Irish people - I would want no part of that. I cant believe that anyone here with our mindset, sense of fair play and honour would agree to that.

But more importantly, not only was their a predilection to exterminate Jews on the part of the Arabs in the BMP - but active support for the Nazis because of their Jew hatred. So given that the Allies had just defeated the Nazis and started the UN, the Arabs are fricking lucky they got *anything* after that - and more importantly, it makes it eminently sensible that the UN decided to keep the parties apart after the Holocaust.

And more particularly, that the British Empire gave people who had actively supported the opposition to a war that almost finished them off - is more a testimony to the British sense of fair play and honor. I can tell you that if I had just fought against the Axis, and there was a group who had helped raise an Islamic SS division, I'd be far less likely to give them 3/5ths of bugger all rather than 90 % of the BMP.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9372/mufti539rs1.jpg

But even so, they did get 90% of the BMP, and decided to continue the war of extermination that their mate Hitler had started, and lost. And lost, and lost again. And want the world to feel sorry for them because they keep losing wars they have started.


Quote:

You keep using the term 'BMP' as if to negate the Palestinians connection to their land. But this is about as pointless as saying if we give 75% of Australia and Canada to Anglos, then it's fine for the remaining 25% to become an Islamic state. It's just ridiculous, and I can't believe you think it actually constitutes an argument.

More straw man. I use the term BMP, because it was the BMP. That's the correct term to use.


Quote:

Now again, I ask you and all those who support Israel and who call for the eradication of the Palestinians and support the military action in Gaza, to consider how you'd react to a 2% minority in your country mass immigrating (illegally mind you) and then turning it into a state purely for their religion/ethnicity.

I dont call for the eradication of anyone, I've said in other threads what I propose. Going back to Resolution 181.

Its not useful to think of legal or illegal immigration as of 1916-1948. People moved around the Middle East a lot very freely, including the Arabs. The current level of immigration red tape is poles apart from what was required to move around the world in the 1800s and up until just after WW2.

That said, most of the Israelis were legal immigrants within the British Empire to Palestine, and the British stopped more Jews coming to Palestine during the Third Reich to appease the Arabs - and many of those people ended up victims of the Nazis.  


Quote:

How would you respond if relegated to a refugee camp? To having your house bulldozed and an exclusive Muslim-only settlement built over it's rubble? I know you have a bit of a militaristic streak in you Calanen, how would you react to such a situation? Ghandi style? Or al-Qassam style?

If I was in a refugee camp because I started a war on a particular community that I lost, and because my brother Arabs wouldnt take me in, I hope I'd be able to reflect on what a stupid decision I and my leaders had made. I'd hope also that I would not keep making that stupid decision for the next 60 years.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 4:31am:

Now again, I ask you and all those who support Israel and who call for the eradication of the Palestinians...

What a dishonest sleight of hand. Nobody is calling for that, as you know very well.  

As I said before, this kind of refusal to honestly engage with rational matters that degrades and dehumanises people like you. It's not western propaganda that presents you as not-quite-like-thee-rest, it is you yourself.

Lets face it...  mod: personal attack
Strawmen galore.


Nothing you say Abu diminishes the FACT that HAMAS are a bunch of ignorant thugs.


Mantra how many Palestinians did the King of Jordan kill when they tried to set up a state within Jordan?  mod: personal attack

Quote:

Australia is an independent state

So if Australia loses it's sovereignity, then you accept to be herded into refugee camp, have your house demolished by bulldozers and a Muslim-only settlement built over it's rubble? The status as independant or mandated is the only factor which prevents you from considering the analogy?


Quote:

It is not owned by anyone else

Ok, so if it's taken over by someone else, then how would you feel about them giving it the Muslim minority?


Quote:

So the first mistake is that there was no independent Palestine, nor even the term until the BMP.

Ok, which state do you live in? Let us assume Victoria, if Victoria were to be handed to the Muslims, would you accept it? Remembering there was never any independant Victorian nation in history... Does that change your right to your home in Victoria at all???

I'm quite sure you can recognise the validity of the analogy, as I said, you simply don't want to consider it, because you know you'd find a very stark contradiction in your support for the Zionist 'swamping' of Palestine in the early 20th. century and your extreme opposition to the Muslim 'swamping' of Australia.

About the best justification you can give to yourself right now is "I don't like the Palestinians ideologies, I like Israel's, and I don't like the Muslims ideology in Australia, and that's why I support who I support". Did you ever stop consider maybe the Palestinians didn't like the beliefs/ideologies of the Jews who swamped their land and turned it into a Jewish-only place?


Quote:

and the UK said we are going to give you independence on the basis that 10% of the land goes to the Irish and 90% goes to the English to keep you people apart because you cant live together, that sounds like a sensible solution. If instead the English said no thats not good enough, we have to exterminate all of those dirty Irish people - I would want no part of that.

The partition plan for Palestine offered Jews who were about 30% of the population by this time over 50% of the land, and Palestinians, who were 60% less than 50% of the land... It's not 90/10 as you are claiming.


Quote:

More straw man. I use the term BMP, because it was the BMP. That's the correct term to use.

Let us examine the situation and dispel this Zionist propaganda you keep peddling regarding the "BMP". In 1916, the Sykes-Picot agreement concluded with this vision of how the Middle East should be divided:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Sykes-Picot-1916.gif

Notice the little purple bit? That's the area that Sir Mark Sykes called Palestine, when he decided to rename the whole region according to Biblical/Roman naming conventions.

In 1920, the British were given the "Mandate of Palestine". The area of Palestine was always known to refer primarily to that parcel of land west of the Jordan river. This was it's designation in ancient Roman times as well as in the Sykes-Picot agreement. The area labeled as "Transjordan" in the mandate was just "left over" land (didn't you ever wonder why it's borders are so straight, and a huge square chunk protrudes eastward from it?), that was historically not even a region, the north of it was part of the Wilayah of Damascus, the south was linked to the Wilayahs of Aqaba and Ma'an, and the east of it was linked with Basra and Baghdad.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/69/BritishMandatePalestine1920.png/250px-BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

As can be seen in the map of the mandate, the west of the Jordan river is labeled Palestine (proper) and the east is Transjordan. Transjordan was incorporated into the mandate in 1921, so for a whole year it wasn't even part of the mandate, then in 1922 it was renamed the Emirate of Transjordan and in 1923 was granted autonomy as a semi-independant state. So for about 1 year, the BMP consisted of Jordan and Palestine officially, although administratively they were completely seperate. The area east of the Jordan river was  never administered from Jerusalem, but was administered from Ma'an...

And so goes the myth of the BMP meaning that the "Arabs" got 75% of Palestine, and poor little Jews only got 25%.

Only someone such as yourself could be so gullible as to fall for this pathetic Zionist play on words. In reality Palestine always only referred to the land that is today being fought over by the Jews and Palestinians.


Quote:

Its not useful to think of legal or illegal immigration as of 1916-1948. People moved around the Middle East a lot very freely, including the Arabs.

Another Zionist myth,  that the population of the Middle East were so transient that many of the "Palestinians" are not even from there, but only immigrated there once the "Jews made the desert bloom". And now back to reality...


Quote:

That said, most of the Israelis were legal immigrants within the British Empire to Palestine

The VAST majority of Jews who immigrated were illegal. This began during the Ottoman period and continued right up until 1948. Today every single Jew in the world (most of whom have no traceable heritage-link to the land), no matter his situation has the automatic right to migrate there, whilst millions of Palestinians languish in refugee camps around the Middle East, unable to enter their own land which they've lived in generatino after generation constantly for well over 1350 years.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 7:12am:

Today every single Jew in the world (most of whom have no traceable heritage-link to the land), no matter his situation has the automatic right to migrate there, whilst millions of Palestinians languish in refugee camps around the Middle East

I wonder why the paalestinians' fellow Muslim Arabs, so concerned for them, don't extend the brotherly generosity towards them that the joos do unhesitatingly to their felows on a much smaller patch.

The Israeelis welcomed other joos from the Soviet Union and from Africa. The Palestinians are not allowed into any of the muslim countries. It is easier for them to migrate to Australia or Canada and become British subjects than to be subjects of any of the muslim princelings and despots.


BTW, there are more Arab Muslims in Israel today than in the whole of the BMP.

SykesPico was superceeded by the mandate.

The majority of the MANDATE Abu the vast majority...  is NOW JORDAN...  you've been told and shown this a great many times.  It is arab occupied land...  good that you finally bothered to look something up yourself for a change.

The mandate was partitioned to give the Jews a proper homeland that could not be disputed.  Now you can blame the British or the League of Nations for how it was done.  But it was done.  Nothing was stopping the other arab tribes from becoming Jordanians and being part of the 75% of palestine that is owned by arab muslims.

Abu - seems the palestinians are reaping what they have sowed.

I would not want any rabid islamic hamas in my country either.
Hope ALL islamics get the message

Gee Abu...  look no Syria, no Jordan, incorrect borders for Egypt and Arabia...  Arabia?

Obviously many things changed eh... do try to be less disingenuous, you know the facts will trip you up.

Oh and isn't it a fact that many countries keep land won during wars?  oh that's right.  Forgot that eh?  How nice of the Israelis to give land back.

Oh and I note the little purple area is called the Allied Condominium.

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 6:45am:

Lets face it...  Abu is a goose. Brainwashed and disingenuous. Strawmen galore. Nothing you say Abu diminishes the FACT that HAMAS are a bunch of ignorant thugs. Mantra how many Palestinians did the King of Jordan kill when they tried to set up a state within Jordan?  You just are clueless aren't you.

Actually Mantra is making you look rather foolish...but hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your self delusions.

and umm..I know your trying to be clever, but I suggest you go back and do some reseach in regards to Palestine and Jordon.

You ask 'How many Palestinians did the King of Jordon kill when trying to set up Jordon.

I suspect that what you are talking about is Black September. This occurred in 1974, and yes, 25,000 Palestinians were murdered in one month by King Hussien. Shortly after this, King Hussien won a noble peace prize from the west. Go figure...no doubt the west were pleased that their agent had done their dirty work for them.

And they never 'tried to set up a state in Jordon'...once again, I suggest you do yourself a favour and go do some research. You might even learn something.

Anyway...you seem to be implying that because King Hussien (who no one will argue was nothing but a despotic criminal) killed so many Palestinians...then somehow this means that Israel has the right to do likewise.

Cause if this is not your point...then I am curious to know..what is?

grendel - don't be so factual to abu.
You know abu is allowed to lie by his beliefs.
abu is correctly following the koran/hadiths- taqiya is the term I believe.

Course if he is found out, abu'ld better practise abrogation.

The free world may have never known those terms, had it not been for Bush, Blair and co and many brave soldiers.
God bless them all :-)

mantra?????   ;D ;D ;D

Muslims look for allies everywhere it seems.

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:08am:

SykesPico was superceeded by the mandate. The majority of the MANDATE Abu the vast majority...  is NOW JORDAN...  you've been told and shown this a great many times.  It is arab occupied land...  good that you finally bothered to look something up yourself for a change. The mandate was partitioned to give the Jews a proper homeland that could not be disputed.  Now you can blame the British or the League of Nations for how it was done.  But it was done.  Nothing was stopping the other arab tribes from becoming Jordanians and being part of the 75% of palestine that is owned by arab muslims.

mod: personal attack people already lived in Palestine, arabs who had homes, land and farms. Families who had lived on the land for hundreds of years. Why should they have to get up and go to Jordon...which is not their homes, because some foreign entity decided to give their land to another people.

What a load of nonsence.

No one has the right to give away land which is not theirs. mod: personal attck

soren,


Quote:

The Israeelis welcomees other joos from the Soviet Union and from Africa.

Quite easy to welcome people when you're welcoming them to someone elses land... To occupy settlements built ontop of the rubble of someone elses demolished home... Of course Israel needs to bring in Jews, if they don't, they know they'll be returned back from whence they came.


Quote:

The Palestinians are not allowed into any of the nuslim countries

So how is it Jordan came to have more Palestinians than Jordanians??


Quote:

BTW, there are more Arab Muslims in Israel today than in the whole of the BMT.

And there's more people in the city of Melbourne today than there was in all of Australia around the same period as the mandate... Never heard of something called population growth?

Grendel,


Quote:

The majority of the MANDATE Abu the vast majority...  is NOW JORDAN...  you've been told and shown this a great many times.

I know you have a habit of not realising when you've been severely embaressed in a discussion, but let me spell it out for you in simpler terms.

The BMP lasted for 28 years:

• For the first year, it was just Palestine.
  
• Then for about 1 year, Transjordan was lumped in with it officially (but was not even administered from the BMP capital of Jerusalem, but instead from Ma'an), but was then removed.
  
• Then for 26 more years, it was just Palestine....

Sinking in?


Quote:

The mandate was partitioned to give the Jews a proper homeland that could not be disputed.

Which partition are you referring to? The only partition that ever took place was the UN partition of 1948 which had nothing to do with Transjordan, and was carried out 26 years after Transjordan was removed from the mandate.... and was only carried out on the land West of the Jordan River, ie. Palestine proper.


Quote:

Nothing was stopping the other arab tribes from becoming Jordanians

Nothing to stop you from becoming a Western Australian if Muslims decide to overrun your home...

Learn to accept the advice you give, because one day you might need to take it :)

ROTFLMAO...  oh dear there was a war Lestat the British won...  they had control over all that land.

Oh BTW there were Jewish settlement there too and lest not get too carried away when describing tribes eh.

Oh and why should not the Jews be entitled to land and only the newly names Palestinians?

Your hypocrisy bias and ignorance knows no bounds...  I can't be bothered posting every bloody reason why what occurred occurred.

I have never said it was equible or done well...  but it was done.  The region even went to war over it and guess who won.

get a life and address reality or go over there and put your money where your mouth is.

mod: personal atack and original flame deleted

so tell us once again Grendel...why should people who have established homes, farms, and links to the land be forced to move hundreds of km's away because some foreign power gives their land to another people.

Care to address the question or do you wish to continue to announce to us all that you have nothing to add...mod: personal attack

I already addressed it mod: personal attack...  you clearly don't get it.

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

ROTFLMAO...  oh dear there was a war Lestat the British won...  they had control over all that land.

This still does not give the British the right to give land to another people, land which already has occupants.


Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

Oh BTW there were Jewish settlement there too and lest not get too carried away when describing tribes eh.

Huh...what does 'tribes' have to do with it. Its irrelevant..fact is they are people, and they had lived on the land for hundreds of years. And for some reason you expect them to pick up, pack up and go, to make room for another people.

As has already been mentioned, at the time, the jews only made up 2% of the population.


Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

Oh and why should not the Jews be entitled to land and only the newly names Palestinians?

What they are named is irrelevant, fact is they had lived on the land for hundreds of years. Jews were entitled to land, only if they owned that land....however, they were given a state, and then commenced to systematically steal land from the Palestinians, using terror tactics, gangs like Irgun and Stern forced the Palestinian farmers, who were often poorly armed to flee, and then commenced to steal their land.

This theft has continued for the past 60 years...and is still occuring to this day where Israeli's bulldoze arab homes in East Jerusalem and replace them with Israeli settlers.


Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

Your hypocrisy bias and ignorance knows no bounds...  I can't be bothered posting every bloody reason why what occurred occurred.

How am I being a hypocrite? Please Explain?

It is actually your hypocricy which knows no bounds. You are stating that the 2% jews deserved their own homeland, yet if muslims in Australia demanded the same, then you  would be the first to be squealing like a b(ctch.

This my friend...is a clear case of hypocricy!


Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

I have never said it was equible or done well...  but it was done.  The region even went to war over it and guess who won.

So you are not saying it was 'done well', but you are still arguing that the Palestinians should of just up and left and gone to Jordan.

Righteo...


Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:57am:

get a life and address reality or go over there and put your money where your mouth is.

I am addressing the reality..whereas you are parrotting word for word the same old zionist lies and propaganda.

You do have problems grasping reality political an otherwise don't you.

I suggest you go find a reliable  history book about the ME and then get back to me.

be happy to explain anything you still don't understand.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 8:55am:

So how is it Jordan came to have more Palestinians than Jordanians??

Jordanian, Palestinian - what's the difference?

Quote:

mantra?????     Muslims look for allies everywhere it seems.

That's not true.  There are things I don't like about Islam which I've pointed out before on this forum, but most decent human beings detest crimes against humanity and the more I read on this subject the more I understand that there are certain groups of people in this world who are oppressed and brutalised and others who are revered.

Because records of so many different incidents and transgressions in history are kept in so many different languages - we can't just asume that the English version is correct every time.

How do you know that Israel wasn't originally set up as a military base and the UN intentionally or unintentionally used it under the guise of a Jewish homeland?

This would kill two birds with the one stone.  The EU & US would have their finger on every pulse in the ME.  Why is Israel the only state allowed to have such an arsonal of nuclear weapons?  

Sprintcyclist made a comment about Hamas driving the Jews into the sea - it's the other way around.  This is a major crisis, perhaps not on the same numerous scale as Darfur or Zimbabwe - but put into the same "last on the list of things to do" basket.  


"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." --Rabbi Ya'acov Perin in his eulogy at the funeral of mass murderer Dr. Baruch Goldstein.

What's not true?
lestat was putting you forward as part of the "team" mantra...

Nothing I said was wrong.

Oh and mantra...  puhlease, we aqll know the stuff muslims say about Jews and teach their children in schools and on TV.  Forgot that did we?

You were inferring that only the naive support the arguments of the Muslims.

nah...  I know what I said.
I was replying to lestat.

this is a general reminder for everyone to stay on topic, be constructive with your comments and don't devolve into personal attacks

Well you better get a bucket out and pour it over lestat because I'm sick of answering his flames.

Oh dear...it appears that there were no militants in the school bombed yesterday..this from the UN director in Gaza.

Apparently the Israeli's had actually told the civilians to hide in the school, then they turn around and bombed. Disgusting..and anyone who can defend this is a disgusting human being.

Seems that the zionist lies have been exposed once again. What say you now...zionist pigs?

---------------------------------------------

No militants in bombed school, UN director says
Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
January 8, 2009


SEVENTEEN hours after the attack on one of his schools killed 40 Palestinians seeking shelter from Israel's war on Hamas, the United Nations' director of operations in Gaza, John Ging, was certain of at least one thing "We have established beyond any doubt that the school was not being used by any militants," Mr Ging told The Age last night. "They were innocent people."

Speaking by phone from the UN's Relief and Works Agency in Gaza, Mr Ging struggled to contain his anger at the attack that has also left more 50 people with serious injuries, 10 of whom remain critical.

Israel demands Hamas disarm
Israel has demanded that Hamas be prevented from rearming as a main condition for a ceasefire.

When the Israeli attack came on the Prep C girls school in the Jabaliya camp at 3.45pm on Tuesday, Mr Ging said about 350 Palestinians were inside, using the school as a shelter.

"The reason they were in the school is because the Israelis had told them to go there," he said. "They were doing exactly as they had been told."

To ensure there was no confusion about the school's location, Mr Ging said the United Nations gave specific GPS co-ordinates to Israeli Defence Forces commanders.

But after receiving reports that mortar shells had been fired at Israeli units from within the school grounds, the commanders decided to strike back. "They shot back to save their own lives," said Israeli Defence Forces spokesman Ilan Tal.

Three tanks shells exploded just outside the school grounds, causing pandemonium inside.

"As you can imagine, this was a very distressing attack," Mr Ging said. "It has killed 40 people, and some of those who were injured may yet die.

"Now we need to know how this happened. A full, transparent and independent inquiry has to be held to determine exactly how this occurred."

The Israeli Defence Forces maintained that mortars had been fired from the school. In a statement released by spokesman Captain Benjamin Rutland, it said it had incontrovertible evidence to support its version of events. "This is not the first time that Hamas has fired mortars and rockets from schools, in such a way deliberately using civilians as human shields in their acts of terror against Israel," the statement said."

Brigadier-General Avi Benayahu said the Israeli Defence Forces had established that Hamas terror operatives were among the dead at the school, and had proof of a mortar battery cell that had been firing in the area. "Hamas operatives Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar were among terrorists that were identified to be killed," he said.

The attack on the school has caused widespread shock across Israel, intensifying pressure on Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to reach a ceasefire.

After 13 days of bombardment of Gaza from the air, land and sea, which has claimed more than 660 lives, the past few days of fighting have been among the bloodiest in the history of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Five Israeli soldiers lost their lives on Wednesday, four from friendly fire, bringing to 10 the number of Israelis who have been killed.

Just before midnight on Tuesday, three Gazans were killed when Israeli forces attacked another UN school in Gaza City.

Earlier that day, a shell hit a house in the Beach refugee camp, killing at least seven members of one family. Shelling of houses in the Bureij refugee camp left at least five dead and 16 injured.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/no-militants-in-bombed-school-un-director-says-20090107-7bzo.html?page=-1

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:19am:

Well you better get a bucket out and pour it over lestat because I'm sick of answering his flames.

haha, whats wrong Grendel. you like dishing out the insults yet squeal like a b(tch when you are on the receiving end.

If you don't wanna be flamed, then stop with the insults and actually address the issues raised by posters...instead of labelling them as 'stupid and ignorant'.

Pretty simple really. Stop being a hypocrite and practise what you preach.

oh dear...

I'm trying to be restrained dear muzzy...  like I said b4 to your ignorance...  you have no idea.

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:42am:

oh dear... I'm trying to be restrained dear muzzy...  like I said b4 to your ignorance...  you have no idea.

lol..whats that..more insults?

Why don't you sook about being flamed again...hypocrite!

Oh btw the guy who runs the school last night said he didn't know if there were militants in the school or if rockets/mortars were launched from there.  he believed not.  but couldn't be 100% certain.
Also he did not say and could not say that such things occurred just outside the perimeter of the school in the streets.

Oh almost forgot...  as much as I'd love to sit here and swap insults with you all day...  I'm not Muslim, so I have my limits.

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:44am:

Oh btw the guy who runs the school last night said he didn't know if there were militants in the school or if rockets/mortars were launched from there.  he believed not.  but couldn't be 100% certain. Also he did not say and could not say that such things occurred just outside the perimeter of the school in the streets.

Do you mean this guy?

"SEVENTEEN hours after the attack on one of his schools killed 40 Palestinians seeking shelter from Israel's war on Hamas, the United Nations' director of operations in Gaza, John Ging, was certain of at least one thing "We have established beyond any doubt that the school was not being used by any militants," Mr Ging told The Age last night. "They were innocent people."

No i don't think so...  I'll look later

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:46am:

Oh almost forgot...  as much as I'd love to sit here and swap insults with you all day...  I'm not Muslim, so I have my limits.

yes..you do have your limits. Rather low limits....

First accurate thing you've said all day.

And the fact that they pulled out two Hamas militants, like say a mortarman and his loader from the school..purely coincidence:


Quote:

Hamas Terrorists Found Dead in School Strike Reported: 00:33 AM - Jan/07/09 (IsraelNN.com) The IDF reported that two well known Hamas terrorists were among the dead in the IDF strike on a school Tuesday which also killed over 40 civilians. According to the IDF, the terrorists were using the school to fire mortar shells at troops. The dead Hamas operatives were Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar. The IDF said, “We face a very delicate situation where the Hamas is using the citizens of Gaza as a protective vest.”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/158819

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:55am:

No i don't think so...  I'll look later

"SEVENTEEN hours after the attack on one of his schools killed 40 Palestinians seeking shelter from Israel's war on Hamas, the United Nations' director of operations in Gaza, John Ging, was certain of at least one thing [B]"We have established beyond any doubt that the school was not being used by any militants," Mr Ging told The Age last night. "They were innocent people."

Still defending the indefencible I see!

No it wasn't him he doesn't run the school.

Calanen wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:57am:

And the fact that they pulled out two Hamas militants, like say a mortarman and his loader from the school..purely coincidence: Quote: Hamas Terrorists Found Dead in School Strike Reported: 00:33 AM - Jan/07/09 (IsraelNN.com) The IDF reported that two well known Hamas terrorists were among the dead in the IDF strike on a school Tuesday which also killed over 40 civilians. According to the IDF, the terrorists were using the school to fire mortar shells at troops. The dead Hamas operatives were Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar. The IDF said, “We face a very delicate situation where the Hamas is using the citizens of Gaza as a protective vest.” http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/158819

lol...another unbiased source from Calanen.

UN Director quotes reported in the AGE...or and IDF spokesman reported on the Israeli National News.

hmm...spot the unbiased one!

Grendel wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 11:58am:

No it wasn't him he doesn't run the school.

Care to provide a source, or are we supposed to take your word for it?

You can take my word for it...  saw it on tele.

Unlike you I don't lie.

Oh and BTW director of Operations for the UN does not run the school.   ::)

It seems the Palestinian supporters do not like war, or the unfortunate consequences of war, like civilian casualties.

Their idea is they should be left in peace.

That way they can carru on sending suicide bombers, and mortars, and rockets, into Israel, without the unpleasant interruption of the Israelis trying to stop them.

The whole point of this thread was to highlight the fact, that electing Hamas, was a very poor choice for the Palestinians to make, and until they rid themselves of Islamic Jihad leaders, then they will continue to have violence as a part of their daily life.

All decent people abhor violence, and I am sure that many Israelis would like to see the fighting stop, apparently more than most Palestinians, who seem to have accepted Jihad as a normal part of their day to day existence.

If they acted peacefully, they would see the rest of the world helping and supporting them, but the probability of that happening is unimaginable, that is why Israel has seemingly acted now, to try and end this thing, once, and for all.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

All decent people abhor violence, and I am sure that many Israelis would like to see the fighting stop, apparently more than most Palestinians, who seem to have accepted Jihad as a normal part of their day to day existence.

And their children's television apparently:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8261/pallytvaw4.jpg

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1832/hamasjihadjz5.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8152/tomorrowspioneersassouduq5.jpg

wow...a couple of photo's with captions. Gee....I'm convinced.

Care to share with us the source of these pics Calanen...or are you afraid that the very little credibility you have remaining might evaporate when people see the kind of sites your source your information from.

I was going to ask Calanen on an earlier thread where he accessed his photos then noticed the tiny print on the bottom of one - Calanen Enterprises Inc.

Very clever Calanen.  

Quote:

......the Hamas is using the citizens of Gaza as a protective vest......”

So much for voting in terrorists.

mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

It seems the Palestinian supporters do not like war, or the unfortunate consequences of war, like civilian casualties.

And it seems the Israeli supporters do like war, the killing of civilians, and will use every means possible to justify it.


mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

Their idea is they should be left in peace.

wow...people wanting peace. How outrageous....


mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

That way they can carru on sending suicide bombers, and mortars, and rockets, into Israel, without the unpleasant interruption of the Israelis trying to stop them.

The first suicide bombing occurred in the 90's. Palestinians people have suffered from Israeli agression and tyranny for over 60 years now.

Why do you insist on ignoring the suffering of the Palestinians?


mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

The whole point of this thread was to highlight the fact, that electing Hamas, was a very poor choice for the Palestinians to make, and until they rid themselves of Islamic Jihad leaders, then they will continue to have violence as a part of their daily life.

So because you disagree with who they voted in democratic elections..therefore you support an blockade which just about starved the people, and now this bombing.

So you want the Palestinians to have democracy, but only if they choose who YOU believe is the best choice.


mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

All decent people abhor violence, and I am sure that many Israelis would like to see the fighting stop, apparently more than most Palestinians, who seem to have accepted Jihad as a normal part of their day to day existence.

After 60 years of occupation...yes, you'd think that resistence would become a normal part of their existence.

But ofcourse, we both know that you don't believe that palestinians have the right to resist occupation, persecution, and oppression.

That is what this is about...you would like to see the Palestinians die in silence....how dare they fight back.

And yes, all decent people would strongly condemn an action where the 4th most powerful miliatry in the world bombs one of the most poorest people in the world, killing over 700 people, including approx. 200 children.

Then their are those who attempt to justify the killing...and blame the violence on the victims.


mozzaok wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:09pm:

If they acted peacefully, they would see the rest of the world helping and supporting them, but the probability of that happening is unimaginable, that is why Israel has seemingly acted now, to try and end this thing, once, and for all.

Don't you mean die peacefully.

For much of the century the Palestinians have waited to see if the rest of the world would help and support them...and what did they get in return?

More killings, more persecution....more land stolen...more settlements, more farms destroyed...more lives destroyed.

The only time that the world pays attention is when Israelis are killed.

For 6 months Israel experienced a period of calm...in that time not one Israeli was killed by Hamas rockets or suicide bombings. The last suicide bombing in Israel occurred over 12 months ago.

Yet in that time Israel has continued with the economic blockade...starving the Palestinians...in addition to targetted killings and scores of bombings which have killed numerous civilians, in both the westbank and Gaza.

But of course...when a  Palestinians dies...you conciously turn off, and don't pay attention.

Why is that?

Quote:

Care to share with us the source of these pics Calanen...or are you afraid that the very little credibility you have remaining might evaporate when people see the kind of sites your source your information from.

The third photo came from that well regared Neonazi site otherwise known as 'wikipedia'. The others were just from random google search on photos from the Pioneers of Tomorrow.

Not sure what your point is, are you saying that I've manufactured the captions? Surely you know of the famous Pioneers of Tomorrow on Hamas TV?

You can watch the whole clip, not just a freeze frame. Lots of gooduns to choose from:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1637.htm

Yotube seems not to be connecting at the moment, but when it comes back up I'll post a few. Perhaps I'll even be able to find the ones from which the caps came from.

mantra wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:31pm:

I was going to ask Calanen on an earlier thread where he accessed his photos then noticed the tiny print on the bottom of one - Calanen Enterprises Inc. Very clever Calanen.

You are talking about the faux Magic Cards? Yes I claim them as my own. The photos in them are other people's of course however, but are not 'doctored', they are real photos.

Calanen wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:42pm:

The third photo came from that well regared Neonazi site otherwise known as 'wikipedia'.

So why don't you provide a link?


Calanen wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:42pm:

The others were just from random google search on photos from the Pioneers of Tomorrow.

Once again...why aren't you providing the links. What are you hiding?


Calanen wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:42pm:

Not sure what your point is, are you saying that I've manufactured the captions? Surely you know of the famous Pioneers of Tomorrow on Hamas TV?

Well given that the shows on Hamas TV are arabic, for arabic audiences, their is no need for captions at all.

so yes...I suspect the captions have been manuafactured...if not by you, then by the biased propaganda site which you sourced the photo's from.

And you refusal to provide a link or source would indicate that my assumptions are correct.

Calanen wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:44pm:

mantra wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 12:31pm: I was going to ask Calanen on an earlier thread where he accessed his photos then noticed the tiny print on the bottom of one - Calanen Enterprises Inc. Very clever Calanen.   You are talking about the faux Magic Cards? Yes I claim them as my own. The photos in them are other people's of course however, but are not 'doctored', they are real photos.

Are the captions real as well...or are they your own little additions?

Are you employed by the IDF to spread their propaganda?

You cannot seriously question the type of anti-jewish, racist, hate speech which Jihadists use, can you LeStat?

It is well documented, and well accepted by all, apart from Islamist sympathisers, it seems.

I posted an article about a year ago, about the mickey mouse character, targeting pre-schoolers, but here it is again, in case you missed it.


Quote:

"Sanabel, what do you want to do to help the Al-Aqsa Mosque?" Farfur asks on the children's program of Hamas's Al-Aqsa television station. "We want to fight." "And what else?" "Wipe out the Jews." Now Farfur, the cartoon character on Hamas's children's television program, is satisfied.  -------and then even more---------   International protests forced Hamas to take its Disney clone out of circulation. Al-Aqsa complied, but promptly turned Farfur's departure into an anti-Semitic statement: Farfur was clubbed to death by an Israeli official. Then the girl hosting the program turned to the camera and said: "You've seen how the Jews killed Farfur as a martyr. What do you want to say to the Jews?" A three-year-old girl named Shaima called into the show to say: "We don't like Jews, because they are dogs! We will fight them!" "Oh, Shaima, you're right," the girl in the studio replied, "the Jews are criminals and our enemies."

Could any society in the world, apart from Islamist extremists, ever condone such vile behaviour?

Unfortunately, when children are taught racism, and hatred, it tends to affect their behaviour in later life.


Here is the link, in case you want to run it through the list of acceptable Hamas propaganda sites.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,553724,00.html

Well i have to admit I have seen and read lots of this stuff about Muslims over the years even from those living here.

Frankly I don't see how you can break the cycle when parents and the state teach their children to hate and feed them lies.

Here is a summary that will aid in me not having to google everything for a change.

Hamas feeding kids a TV diet of hatred
Piers Akerman
Wednesday, January 07, 2009 at 06:37pm  

ISRAEL’S Operation Cast Lead is unfolding like a familiar soap opera on the nightly news.

A series of Palestinian terrorists making blood-curdling threats against Israelis, a hail of missiles aimed at Israeli civilian targets, retaliatory strikes against the terrorists - who unfailingly seek to shelter behind innocent civilians - followed by scenes of weeping parents at crowded hospitals.

It is a plot line designed to soften the hardest heart. Unfortunately, those who buy the tear-jerking material unquestioningly are being duped.

No one, let alone a parent raised in a Western culture, could imagine placing children directly in harm’s way or encouraging impressionable infants to worship death but that is what the thugs and murderers responsible for the slaughter in Gaza have been doing.

It is an Islamist thing and Palestinian TV, often subsidised by the United Nations and European Union, is full of it.

In regular drama directed at kindergarten-aged children, children are taught that martyrdom is a beautiful state to aspire to, that suicide bombers are heroes and heroines and that even cartoon characters can sing and dance and murder their way into paradise.

Palestinian Media Watch and the Middle East Media Research Institute have been documenting this extraordinary perversion in recent years.

Among the scripts translated from Arabic is a cute story of the four-year-old daughter of female suicide bomber Reem Riyashi, shown singing to her dead mother and swearing to follow in her explosive footsteps. The video clip, aired on Hamas TV, depicts the little child asking her mother what she is carrying (it is explosives) and why she is putting on a hijab. All is made clear when the local newspaper (and headstone) reveals that mummy dearest was no soccer-mum but indeed a bomber-mum.

“Instead of me you carried a bomb in your hands. Only now, I know what was more precious than us . . . may your steps be blessed,” the little girl sings.

“Send greetings to our Messenger (Mohammed) and tell him: ‘Duha loves you.’ My love will not be (merely) words. I am following Mummy in her steps.”

At which point she finds some explosives her bomb-loving mum left in a drawer and picks up a stick, happily singing: “Oh Mummy, Oh Mummy.”

Don’t think this is some aberration. Abhorrent agitprop is the currency of Palestinian children’s television programming, with even cartoon characters depicting martyrdom as a highly desirable goal.

In a regular show on Hamas TV early last year, giant rabbit “Assud” replaced his brother “Nahoul” - a giant bee who had died after failing to get into hospital in Egypt for surgery.

Assud told his young audience: “We are all ready to sacrifice ourselves for the sake of our homeland. We will sacrifice our souls and everything we own for the homeland”, vowing also to “get rid of the Jews and eat them up”.

Regular viewers would recall Nahoul himself replaced “Farfour”, the Hamas mouse who was shown being “killed” on the show by an Israeli soldier in 2007.

As the young female host Saraa Bahoum told her audience: “Yes, my dear children, we have lost our dearest friend Farfour. Farfour was martyred while defending his land, the land of his fathers and forefathers. He was martyred at the hand of criminals, the murderers, the murderers of innocent children who killed Iman Hijo, Muhammed Al-Dura and many others.”

The martyred mouse was more likely a victim of copyright lawyers who saw too close a resemblance to Disney’s Mickey Mouse but that wasn’t in the script.

The bee made that clear when he said: “I want to continue in the path of Farfour - the path of Islam, of heroism, of martyrdom, of the mujahidin. Me and my friends will follow in the footsteps of Farfour. We will take revenge upon the enemies of Allah, the killer of the prophets and of the innocent children, until we liberate Al-Aqsa from their impurity. We place our trust in Allah.”

Indoctrinating children to become suicide bombers and human shields is a declared goal of Hamas, as Fathi Hamad, a representative of the terrorist organisation, proudly told the Palestine Authority Legislative Council last year.

“For the Palestinian people death became an industry at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel and the children excel,” Hamad said.

“Accordingly (Palestinians) created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ‘We desire death as you desire life’.”

To ensure that the “death industry” doesn’t experience a slow-down, Hamas has placed its fighters in civilian homes, schools and hospitals.

It would be inhuman in the extreme not to feel sympathy for the children being used in this callous manner but it would be unintelligent not to ask why those who are exploiting them are not being called to account.

It'ld be nice to get a comment from abu or lestat on the posts pertaining to islamics training their kids to be suicide bombers ?

Apart from some personal attack sort of comment, that is.

Lestat wrote on Jan 7^th, 2009 at 6:45pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 7th, 2009 at 5:24pm: It is about religion, about islam. It is about land only in so far as it is 'muslim' land. Well actually, no it isn't about religon, though I understand that a bigot like you would like to make it appear so, as in your sick mind it would justify the murder of woman.

Very, well, if it's about land and not religion - why don't all the palestinians convert to judaism en masse. In an instant they would be on their own land without moving even an inch and they could go anywhere in Israel. Would be barred from every other Arab country, mind, but they are barred now, so that's no loss.


'Not about religion' - what nonsense.

Hamas Bunny Assud Urges Boycott of Danish Goods and Threatens to Kill Danes over Muhammad Cartoons  

yot
Following are excerpts from a Hamas children's show, "The Pioneers of Tomorrow", which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 22, 2008:

Child host Saraa Barhoum: Amani, you've seen the kind of attack that the West launched against the Prophet Muhammad. What do you have to say on behalf of the Prophet Muhammad?

Amani, by phone: In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate, I say to those cowardly infidels...

Assud the Bunny: Those criminals...

Amani: Yes, those criminals... You mock our Prophet Muhammad, but look, my beloved Prophet Muhammad, how Allah responded to them: "Allah shall pay them back for their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their excess, blindly wandering on." My beloved Messenger of Allah, they mocked you with their drawings, because they do not know the mercy in your heart. My beloved Muhammad, if they had known the mercy in your heart, they would not have done this to you. Allah knows that we love you, and that we will redeem you with our souls, our blood, and our hearts.

[...]

Assud: Do you boycott Israeli and Danish products?

Amani: Yes, Assud. I do.

Assud: You've stopped eating them altogether?

Amani: I have.

Assud: That's great. Keep it up.

Saraa: All of us will definitely boycott Danish products, and even before that, we will boycott Israeli products, Amani.

Amani: With your permission, I'd like to continue.

Assud and Saraa: Go ahead.

Amani: Finally, I'd like to apologize to the Messenger of Allah. May Allah curse these infidels, who have gone astray. We the soldiers of the pioneers of tomorrow, apologize to you, beloved Messenger of Allah. Denmark has spoken heresy, but you are a source of pride and mercy for Islam and the Muslims.

Assud: The [American] cowboys have spoken heresy as well.

[...]

Amani: Our brothers, the Americans, have affronted the Prophet Muhammad...

Assud: They are not our brothers, they are criminals.

Amani: What?

Assud: They are infidels, not our brothers.

Amani: They are enemies of Allah, and they have affronted the Prophet Muhammad.

[...]

Saraa: How did these Danes have the audacity to affront the Messenger of Allah? Do you have an answer to that, Assud?

Assud: No, I don't. Maybe because the Arabs and Muslims keep silent, [the Danes] humiliated them and did these things to them.

Saraa: That's one reason, but there is an even more important reason, Assud.

Assud: I have no idea.

Saraa: It's because the West has seen that we've moved away from the religion of Allah, and from the Sunna of our Prophet Muhammad. They have also seen that we have forsaken the religion of Allah, and therefore, they could affront the Prophet, because... We have done nothing to redeem the Prophet Muhammad. But I say to them: You haven't seen anything yet. Allah willing, the soldiers of the Pioneers of Tomorrow will redeem the Prophet Muhammad with all that they possess, and even with their blood, Assud. They will not allow them to do this again.

Assud: If they do it again, Saraa, we will kill them, right?

Saraa: Allah willing.

Assud: I will bite them and eat them up.

Saraa: Yes.

[...]

Assud, we are not terrorists. All we want is to get our beloved homeland, Palestine, back. We want all of Palestine to be ours. We are not terrorists...

Assud: Because it was ours to begin with, right?

Saraa: Right. They say we are terrorists merely because we want this, but of course, we're not terrorists...,/p>

Assud: They are the terrorists.

Saraa: Yes, Assud. Allah willing, we will regain the cities under Zionist occupation, such as Jaffe, Haifa, Acre, Ashdod, the village of Hoj, and all the Palestinian cities.

Assud: Saraa, do you know what I'm hoping for? I want us to take Jaffe, Acre, Haifa, and all of Palestine, Allah willing, and then we'll go to Iraq. All the borders will be opened. Between Egypt and us, there will be no barriers, and the same goes for Jordan and Saudi Arabia. We'll come and go by car. I hope this comes true. Do you think this will come true?

Saraa: Allah willing, this will come true soon.

Assud: Allah willing, when I am martyred, a tiger will take my place... Allah willing, I will be the one to fix things, and there won't be any tiger. The "Pioneers of Tomorrow" and I will make this dream come true.

[...]

Who will host this show if you are martyred? Will 100,000 Saraas take your place?

Saraa: Allah willing, Assud.

Assud: We'll take them from among the Pioneers of Tomorrow, Allah willing.

Saraa: Allah willing, there are thousands of soldiers of the Pioneers of Tomorrow.

Assud: Martyrdom for the sake of Allah is what we hope for, right?

Saraa: Right, Assud.

[...]

Saraa: What do you have to say to the cartoonist who started all this, and affronted the Prophet by drawing him?

Assud: He's a criminal...

Saraa: Yes, a criminal.

Tasnim, by phone: I say to him, and to all of them, that no matter how much they try to hide him, we will manage to kill him, to assassinate him.

Assud: Allah willing.

Saraa: I pray that Allah makes the earth swallow him up, so that he serves as a lesson to others like him, Tasnim.

[...]

Assud, it appears that our show is coming to an end. What do you have to say to this criminal, the cartoonist who affronted the Prophet by drawing him?

Assud: I say to him what you already said: You criminal, you lowlife, you scum of the earth – right, Saraa? Allah willing, the day will come when you will regret what you did.

http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1693.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1693.htm

Lestat wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 12:54pm:

Calanen wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 12:44pm: mantra wrote on Jan 8th, 2009 at 12:31pm: I was going to ask Calanen on an earlier thread where he accessed his photos then noticed the tiny print on the bottom of one - Calanen Enterprises Inc. Very clever Calanen.   You are talking about the faux Magic Cards? Yes I claim them as my own. The photos in them are other people's of course however, but are not 'doctored', they are real photos. Are the captions real as well...or are they your own little additions? Are you employed by the IDF to spread their propaganda?

Yes as it happens, Im the Cultural Attache to the Israeli Embassy. The MEMRI site and all of the right wing blogs were created by me with Microsoft Front page.

In fact, the filming of the Pioneers of Tomorrow is done on a set in my basement with paid Israeli actors made to wrongly defame Hamas.

But don't tell anyone, I dont want them to know you are onto me.

Quote:

Are you employed by the IDF to spread their propaganda?

Nah I'd say they only employ thinkers, not gullible fools. Fools don't fool fools, thinkers do.

prevalence of anti-semitism in palestine is really of no surprise to me

The Pioneers of Tomorrow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNE__TiMZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8w7_P8wZ0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuKFvdsewDI&feature=related

Fantastic children's television.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2009 at 7:38pm:

Quote: Are you employed by the IDF to spread their propaganda? Nah I'd say they only employ thinkers, not gullible fools. Fools don't fool fools, thinkers do.

You just cant help the flames - it's like primary school with you.