Post by Calanen on Dec 29th, 2008 at 12:16am
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Member Run Boards >> Extremism Exposed >> Israeli bombing http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1230435243 Message started by Gaybriel on Dec 28th, 2008 at 1:34pm |
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Title: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Dec 28th, 2008 at 1:34pm
Gaza rocket strikes kill 230, injure 400
12:15 AEST Sun Dec 28 2008 More than two hundred people have been killed after Israel hit Hamas targets in Gaza with rockets. Israeli warplanes blasted Gaza targets including a mosque and a TV station on Sunday, after a day of airstrikes that killed more than 230 Palestinians. At least 230 Palestinians, most of them militants, died and more than 400 were wounded on Saturday, one of the bloodiest days in decades of Israeli-Palestinian fighting. One Israeli was also killed and six Israelis were wounded. The unprecedented assault sparked protests and condemnations throughout the Arab world, and many of Israel's Western allies urged restraint, though the US blamed Hamas for the fighting. But there was no end in sight. Israel obliquely threatened to go after Hamas' leaders, and militants kept pelting Israel with rockets. Hundreds of Israeli infantry and armoured corps troops headed for the Gaza border in preparation for a possible ground invasion, military officials said. In the first attack early on Sunday, Palestinians said Israeli aircraft bombed a mosque near Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, destroying it. Two bodies were retrieved from the rubble. The blast, just after midnight, blew out windows at the hospital, hospital officials said. The military said the mosque was "a base for terrorist activities". Another target early on Sunday was the Al Aqsa TV station used by Hamas. Its studio building was destroyed, but the station remained on the air with a mobile unit. Palestinians counted about 20 airstrikes in the first hours of Sunday. In a televised statement on Saturday evening, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the goal was "to bring about a fundamental improvement in the security situation of the residents of the southern part of the country." He added, "It could take some time." The Israeli airstrikes caused widespread panic and confusion, and black plumes of smoke billowed above the territory, ruled by the Islamic militant Hamas for the past 18 months. Some of the Israeli missiles struck in densely populated areas as students were leaving school, and women rushed into the streets frantically looking for their children. At least 15 civilians were killed, officials said. "My son is gone, my son is gone," wailed Said Masri, a 57-year-old shopkeeper, as he sat in the middle of a Gaza City street, slapping his face and covering his head with dust from a bombed-out security compound nearby. He said he had sent his nine-year-old son out to purchase cigarettes minutes before the airstrikes began and could not find him. "May I burn like the cigarettes, may Israel burn," Masri moaned. Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas, and that has led to steep civilian casualties in the past when Israel has retaliated. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language voice mails on their mobile phones from the Israeli military, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons. The offensive began eight days after a six-month truce between Israel and the militants expired. The Israeli army says Palestinian militants have fired some 300 rockets and mortars at Israeli targets over the past week, and 10 times that number over the past year. In Gaza City's main security compound, bodies of more than a dozen uniformed Hamas police lay on the ground. Civilians rushed wounded people in cars and vans to hospitals because there weren't enough ambulances to transport all the dead and wounded. "There are heads without bodies .... There's blood in the corridors. People are weeping, women are crying, doctors are shouting, " said nurse Ahmed Abdel Salaam from Shifa Hospital, Gaza's main treatment centre. Military officials said aircraft released more than 100 tonnes of bombs in the first nine hours of fighting, focusing initially on militant training camps, rocket-manufacturing facilities and weapons warehouses that had been identified in advance. A second wave was directed at squads who fired about 80 rockets and mortars at Israeli border communities. Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Hamas' political leaders could soon be targeted. "Hamas is a terrorist organisation and nobody is immune," she declared. The campaign was launched six weeks before national elections. Livni and Defence Minister Ehud Barak hope to succeed Olmert as prime minister, and the outgoing government has faced pressure to take tough action. Gaza's political leaders, who have been targeted in the past, went into hiding earlier this week. In a speech broadcast on local Gaza television, Hamas' prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, declared his movement would not be cowed. "We are stronger, and more determined, and have more will, and we will hold onto our rights even more than before," Haniyeh said. It was not clear where he spoke. In Damascus, Syria, Hamas' top leader, Khaled Mashaal, called on Palestinians to rekindle their fight against Israel. "This is the time for a third uprising," he said. Israel withdrew its troops and settlers in 2005 after crushing the second Palestinian uprising, but it has maintained control over the territory's border crossings. Despite the overwhelming show of force, it was not clear the offensive would halt the rocket fire. Past operations have never achieved that goal. The lone fatality in Israel was in the town of Ne |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Dec 28th, 2008 at 4:19pm
The US identified the culprits correctly.
As for the strikes - about time, too. They can't say they haven't been warned. The palestinians should have stragled all the 'militant' psychopathic gangsters in their midst long ago. It should not be left to Israel to weed them out. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Dec 28th, 2008 at 4:26pm
This is interesting.
Iran has an aid ship on the way to Palestine sent just before the attack, Russia has announced it will aid Palestine just before the attack also. Now Israel attacks Palestine. Looks like they are trying to get retaliation from the Arabs, to justify waging war in the Middle East. Then you have the USA using their proxies in Pakistan/AQ to attack India, troops in Iraq and other such lovely things. Someone is trying to start a Jihad, and this time it might not be the Muslims starting it. Of course the media will make it look like they are. Ever hear about the lax security around Russian nuclear sites, and how some have gone missing? Funny if some were already in Palestinian hands, thanks to Russian mafia or something, and a suitcase bomb is about to be detonated in Tel Aviv. That would learn them. However, you can never justify nuclear war. I reckon the USA and Israel need to pull their mod: swearing heads in and stop trying to start global war. Oh, and in regards to the rockets sent at Israel.... When Mossad stops their bullshit cloak and dagger stuff, maybe Israel will become less of a target. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Dec 28th, 2008 at 7:22pm Soren wrote on Dec 28th, 2008 at 4:19pm:
actually the previous attacks haven't been linked to Hamas from what I know so you see this as justified? the attacks by palestinians killed about 5 israelis. does this make the counter attacks justifiable in your opinion? I assume you condemn the 9/11 attacks- but you see this as warranted? what is the difference in your opinion? at a fundamental level I mean |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 28th, 2008 at 10:57pm Quote:
So what? Good riddance. Israel has shown remarkable restraint in the face of almost daily rocket attacks. The town of Sderot is hit all the time. I can tell you, if my suburb was being hit with rockets, and the government was not doing anything, I'd be seriously considering launching my own retaliatory strike. Hamas keeps taunting Israel until it attacks, and then shows dead people on the news and expects sympathy. If you dont want Israel to attack you, stop firing rockets at them. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by northy on Dec 28th, 2008 at 11:39pm Gaybriel wrote on Dec 28th, 2008 at 7:22pm:
Northy. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Dec 28th, 2008 at 11:50pm northy wrote on Dec 28th, 2008 at 11:39pm:
Hi Northy. Many Australians, myself included, do not wish to see any particular cultural/religious group exert massive influence on this country and change the place to suit themselves at the expense of the majorty. Are you one of those Aussies? Now, apply that line of emotion to the middle east and Israel. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 29th, 2008 at 12:16am |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Dec 29th, 2008 at 12:33am
It would be damn near impossible for Palestinian special forces to infiltrate Israel and conduct clandestine raids.
How much stuff would the Israelis do that doesn't make the paper? All is not as it seems. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by northy on Dec 29th, 2008 at 12:44am easel wrote on Dec 28th, 2008 at 11:50pm:
Yes Easel, I am one of those Aussies. Yes, I have no problem applying "that line of emotion" to the middle east/Israel. Repeatedly, ad nauseam we hear and see written/televised the desire of a certain religeous/cultural group to destroy Israel, drive the jews into the sea/kill every last one of them, etc. If the rest of the "civilised" world turns a blind eye and allows these primatives to suceed, we will have lost any claim we may entertain about our own civility/decency. Northy. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by northy on Dec 29th, 2008 at 1:07am easel wrote on Dec 29th, 2008 at 12:33am:
Easel, What relevance is this? In any instance, remember approx 20% of the Israeli population are not Jews and some of those non Jews would almost certainly aid clandestine raids by those wishing to cause mayhem. It has happened in the past and will most likely happen again but, to call insurgents/suicide bombers "special forces" is a stretch. How much "stuff" doesn't make the paper! I can assure you militaries and intelligence organisations the world over do not make a habit of detailing their operations to the public unless it is in the interest of the said operations. That includes Australia BTW. All is not what it seems! Profound, but what and how do you know? :) Northy |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Dec 29th, 2008 at 4:14pm
Another angle to consider is this one:
Look at the global financial situation. Look at where the global financial power houses are located. War always causes death, destruction and mayhem, yet some people get insanely rich from it. Some people are entirely materialistic and have no consideration for their fellow man. What do you think? |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 29th, 2008 at 9:47pm
If you are wondering what the flags say, they say "bear witness (testify) that There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his servant.'
Hamas flags say the same thing, but are bright green and then have the word HAMAS underneath them. There were some green flags at the protest, but only the black one was fully unfurled, so I couldnt see what was on them. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 30th, 2008 at 6:59pm Now what flag is this religion of peace person waving? Could it possibly be the flag of Hizbollah! Maybe - the crowd was apparently shouting, 'labbaik ya nasrallah' at the time. Nasrallah is the leader of Hizbollah. Means roughly, We are ready to help you or obey Nasrallah, or Here we come to aid you Nasrallah, sort of - not easy to directly translate. Here is the link to the video I took, sorry about the quality. I was taken by surprise, so only had my mobile. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfS1OrRI0Is Note the Hamas flag at about 22 seconds in, centre shot. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Dec 30th, 2008 at 7:36pm
A summary:
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:32am
Column One: The 'realist' fantasy
By CAROLINE GLICK Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed. On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion. [Ahh Yes, that enlightened Islamic code of Sharia, there is much us poor westerners can learn from it - Cal ] Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas. While Hamas joyously renewed its jihad against Jews and Christians, its overlords in Iran also basked in jihadist triumphalism. The source of Teheran's sense of ascendancy this week was Britain's Channel 4 network's decision to request that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad give a special Christmas Day address to the British people. Ahmadinejad's speech was supposed to be a response to Queen Elizabeth II's traditional Christmas Day address to her subjects. That is, Channel 4 presented his message as a reasonable counterpoint to the Christmas greetings of the head of the Church of England. Channel 4 justified its move by proclaiming that it was providing a public service. As a spokesman told The Jerusalem Post, "We're offering [Ahmadinejad] the chance to speak for himself, which people in the West don't often get the chance to see." While that sounds reasonable, the fact is that Westerners see Ahmadinejad speaking for himself all the time. They saw him at the UN two years in a row as he called for the countries of the world to submit to Islam; claimed that Iran's nuclear weapons program is divinely inspired; and castigated Jews as subhuman menaces to humanity. They saw him gather leading anti-Semites from all over the world at his Holocaust denial conference. They heard him speak in his own words when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." And of course, over the years Ahmadinejad has often communicated directly to the British people. For instance, in 2007 he received unlimited airtime on UK television as he paraded kidnapped British sailors and marines in front of television cameras; forced them to make videotaped "confessions" of their "crime" of entering Iranian territorial waters; and compelled them to grovel at his knee and thank him for "forgiving" them. The British people listened to Ahmadinejad as he condemned Britain as a warmongering nation after its leaders had surrendered Basra to Iranian proxies. They heard him - speaking in his own voice - when he announced that in a gesture of Islamic mercy, he was freeing their humiliated sailors and marines in honor of Muhammad's birthday and Easter, and then called on all Britons to convert to Islam. Yet as far as Channel 4 is concerned, Ahmadinejad is still an unknown quantity for most Britons. So they asked him to address the nation on Christmas. And not surprisingly, in his address, he attacked their way of life and co-opted their Jewish savior, Jesus, saying, "If Christ was on earth today, undoubtedly he would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers." He then reiterated his call for non-Muslims to convert to Islam saying, "The solution to today's problems can be found in a return to the call of the divine prophets." THE FACT of the matter is that Channel 4 is right. There is a great deal of ignorance in the West about what the likes of Ahmadinejad and his colleagues in Iran, Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas stand for. But this isn't their fault. They tell us every day that they seek the destruction of the Jews and the domination of the West in the name of Islam. And every day they take actions that they believe advance their goals. The reason that the West remains ignorant of the views and goals of the likes of Hamas and Iran is not that the latter have hidden their views and goals. It is because the leading political leaders and foreign policy practitioners in the West refuse to listen to them and deny the significance of their actions. As far as the West's leaders are concerned, Iran and its allies are unimportant. They are not actors, but objects. As far as the West's leading foreign policy "experts" and decision-makers are concerned, the only true actors on the global stage are Western powers. They alone have the power to shape reality and the world. Oddly enough, this dominant political philosophy, which is based on denying the existence of non-Western actors on the world stage, is referred to as political "realism." |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:33am
Even more disturbingly, Haass ignores the fact that Teheran made its greatest leaps forward in its uranium enrichment capabilities while it was engaged in these talks with the West.
Continued from page 1 of 2 ) So in making his recommendation to the Obama administration - which has already announced its intention to negotiate with the mullahs - Haass has chosen to ignore Iran's statements, its actions, and known facts about the West's inability to steer it from its course of war by showering it with pay-offs. Haass and his colleagues in the US, Europe and on the Israeli Left are similarly unwilling to pay attention to Hamas. In an article in the current edition of Foreign Affairs, Haass and his colleague Martin Indyk from the Brookings Institute call on the Obama administration to either ignore Hamas, or, if it abides by a cease-fire with Israel, they suggest that the Obama administration should support a joint Hamas-Fatah government and "authorize low-level contact between US officials and Hamas." The fact that Hamas itself is wholly dedicated to Israel's destruction and Islamic global domination is irrelevant. Similarly, Haass and Indyk assume that Damascus can be appeased into abandoning its support for Hizbullah and Hamas, and its strategic alliance with Iran. Syrian President Bashar Assad's views of how his interests are best served are unimportant. Both Assad's statements of eternal friendship with Iran and his active involvement in Iran's war effort against the US and its allies in Israel, Iraq and Lebanon are meaningless. The "realists" know what he really wants. MUSLIMS AREN'T the only ones whose views and actions are dismissed as irrelevant by these foreign policy wise men. The "realists" ignore just about every non-Western actor. Take Iran's principal Asian ally, North Korea, for example. This week North Korea's official news agency threatened to destroy South Korea in a "sea of fire," and "reduce everything treacherous and anti-reunification to debris and build an independent, reunified country on it," if any country dares to attack its nuclear installations. North Korea made its threat two weeks after Kim Jung Il's regime disengaged from its fraudulent disarmament talks with the Bush administration. Those talks - the brainchild of foreign policy "realists" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Assistant Secretary Christopher Hill - were based on the "realist" belief that the US can appease North Korea into giving up its nuclear arsenal. (That would be the same nuclear arsenal that the North Koreans built while engaged in fraudulent disarmament talks with the Clinton administration.) After Pyongyang agreed in February 2007 to eventually come clean on its plutonium installations (but not its uranium enrichment programs), and to account for its nuclear arsenal (but not for its proliferation activities), Rice convinced President Bush to remove North Korea from the State Department's list of state sponsors of terror and to end its subjection to the US's Trading with the Enemy Act this past October. And then, after securing those massive US concessions, on December 11 Pyongyang renounced its commitments, walked away from the table and now threatens to destroy South Korea if anyone takes any action against it. North Korea's behavior is of no interest to the "realists," however. As far as they are concerned, the US has no option other than to continue the failed appeasement policy that has enabled North Korea to develop and proliferate nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. As the Council on Foreign Relations' Gary Samore said, "I think we're sort of condemned to that process, because we don't really have any alternative." Samore and his colleagues believe there are no other options because all other options involve placing responsibility for contending with North Korea on non-Western powers like China, South Korea and Japan. More radically, they involve holding North Korea accountable for its actions and making it pay a price for its poor behavior. As the "realists" claim that the US has no option other than their failed appeasement policies, back in the real world, this week military officials from the US's Pacific Command warned that North Korea may supply Iran with intercontinental ballistic missiles. These warnings are credible given that North Korea has been the primary supplier of ballistic missiles and missile technology to Iran and Syria and has played a major role in both countries' nuclear weapons programs. Defending Channel 4's invitation to Ahmadinejad, Dorothy Byrne, the network's head of news and current affairs, said, "As the leader of one of the most powerful states in the Middle East, President Ahmadinejad's views are enormously influential. As we approach a critical time in international relations, we are offering our viewers an insight into an alternative world view." When you think about it, broadcasting Ahmadinejad really would have been a public service if Byrne or any of the delusional "realists" calling the shots were remotely interested in listening to what he has to say. But they aren't. So far from a public service for Britain, it was a service for those who, unbeknownst to most Britons, are dedicated to destroying their country. caroline@carolineglick.com http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1230111707087&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:44am Quote:
Lights camera action - it's Pallywood.... Al ja AP camera man says 'Ok kids everyone jump on the gurney next to the wounded man and look sick. As many kids as we can fit into the shot.' http://www.daylife.com/photo/0df680j05cbDJ/palestinian_children |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by sprintcyclist on Dec 31st, 2008 at 10:56am Soren - hahahah, good cartoon !!! |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Dec 31st, 2008 at 11:37am
To understand the ddifference b etween the wwarring sides, consider this:
Imaginee Israel fighting the Arabs since 1948 with the same ruthless disregard and fanaticissm as the Muslim Arabs fight Israel on the burgings of their religion, their various media outlets, imams, politicians. There would be no Palesitinan Gaza or West Bank, no Jordan, Southern Lebanon, quite possbly no Syria and Upper Egypt. But it is inconcievable that Israel would ever act like its enemies. And that is what its enemies exploit every day. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by mozzaok on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:23pm
It is just not so simple as saying one side is more ruthless than the other, Soren.
My wife is pretty disinterested in politics, and she asked me why this was happening, and whose fault it is? Of course there is no definitive answer to that, just perspectives which change dependent on which point of view you take it from. I started by saying, the only premise for Israel existing, that the arabs could ever accept, was if they bought up a parcel of land somewhere away from the middle east, and started a new country there. For many arabs, even that would not satidfy them, and they would continue their traditional enmity against them be they in the middle east, or ecuador. Conversely, when you look at the map of the region, and see how israel has expanded itself through military aggression, you can understand why palestinians could feel some rightful grievance at the takeover of their land. Effectively, it is a war, which Israel has won, but not to the point where the other side accepts defeat. This latest advance is likely to see the Gaza strip become wholely israeli controlled, with the palestinians pushed back into the small areas bordering the west bank area. How far they will go, how ruthless will they be? If they bite the bullet, and go hard now, will it make the palestinians finally accept israels might, is all it needs to secure it's right to exist, not the good will of the arab, and muslim neighbours? Of course, no-one expects that will never happen. index_14.JPG (95 KB | 48
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:25pm Quote:
Living under the occupation of Hamas (which probably wouldnt happen because they would just exterminate all the Jews, in the usual manner customary of jihads, through public beheading, but just if this didnt happen) for Israel, would be a lot less fun than Hamas is having right now under Israeli occupation. I doubt Hamas would let the Israelis play with guns under their watch. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:32pm Quote:
The majority of jews that moved to Palestine, moved their under British rule as legal immigrants. Britain had the authority and the right to let them do so, as the ruler of the British Mandate of Palestine. The reason Britain wanted out, and the UN divided the nation into Jews and Arab states was because the Arabs returned to their Islamic roots of slaughtering Jews. So from the moment the immigrants touched down into the BMP, the Arabs were killing them. The Jews fought back, eventually, and it was on for young and old. It would be like me deciding to go out to Lakemba and kill Arabs in Sydney. Because its MY LAND, not ARAB LAND! Do I have that right? When Arabs were so intolerant of their Jewish immigrants, we have to be tolerant of them as immigrants? Something of a double standard. And we are not killing anybody. And then because the fighting got so bad, the UN divided the area into the Arab and Jewish states. There was no Arab state beforehand, it was under British rule. But that was not good enough for the Arabs. No sir. They wanted to slaughter all of the Jews and take the whole BMP instead of dividing it along the lines decided by the UN. So they started an Aloha Snackbar jihadi war, guns in the air, we are the tough guys...and LOST. 10 Arabic nations lost to a pissant group of European Jewish immigrants. Lost in a war the Arabs started. And even though they lost, and started wars again in 1967, and 1973, and have been involved in terror all this time - Israel still negotiates. And Im supposed to feel sorry for them? That they decided to exterminate a particular brand of immigrant, that lawfully moved to a land not under their control - and they lost those numerous wars of extermination - boo frigging hoo. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:46pm
The IDF is putting up videos on Youtube showing what it is doing, but of course, the Aloha Snackbar Youtube Jihadis are flagging them as race hate etc, and Youtube is autobanning them. Here is one video Hamas and their western supporters dont want you to see:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7f0_1230584566 Hamas loading Grad missiles in the middle of a built up area, ready to fire into civilian targets in Israel. It has a fitting ending though. Heres what happened when Hamas fired a Grad rocket into Ashkelon shopping mall on Wednesday: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eb9_1210784664 |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Dec 31st, 2008 at 4:11pm Calanen wrote on Dec 31st, 2008 at 2:32pm:
Just so. Israel accepted the 1948 borders. Whatever territory it occupied subsequently was in reposnse to attacks by the Arabs. Were the Arabs led by reason and not religious fanaticism, they would have made peace and benefited from the proximity of a democratic, talented country in the midst, eager to have peace. But that would be unislamic, literally. Mozzoak, ask your wife - how many rocket attacks would she put up with in your neighbourhood before demanding that the government hit back and hit back hard? How many bus bombings and pizza parlour bombings would it take her not to let your children take a bus ride to the pizza shop? So boo frigging hoo is the mot just, I'm afraid. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by mozzaok on Dec 31st, 2008 at 8:08pm
Fortunately, my wife is a fair and practical person, and would not try to assign blame solely to one side or the other, and can see the reasoning that both sides use to justify their individual causes.
But like you say, she does not think that Israelis should have to live under the constant threat of terror, because their neighbours cannot accept that they have the right to exist. Even a massive push against palestinians will merely see the borders change, and Israelis fill the cleared areas, and the next generation see bombs being lobbed at them. Without clear and significant buffer zones between them, civilian populations will always suffer from such conflict. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Dec 31st, 2008 at 8:51pm Quote:
What should happen, but will and can never happen is go back to Resolution 181, and get Hamas and Al Fatah to swear on the Koran that: - there will be no jihad, EVER against the Jews; - there will be no more terror of any kind; - irreovcably accept Israel's right to exist, - they get the West Bank and Gaza as their own state. Jerusalem becomes a free city under UN control. That's the only way to settle it. But if Hamas and Al Fatah keep focussing on destroying Israel, and firing rockets, then it will just continue. Israel's not going anywhere, they need to accept that. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Dec 31st, 2008 at 9:12pm
Not surprising that the so called proponents of 'peace and civility' are justifying the deaths of hundreds of civilians (Yes HAMAS officials, police officers, politicians etc. are civilians too, as they are in any other country, not to mention the non-Hamas victims) whilst at the same time attacking the victims and blaming them for being attacked. And not surprisingly their memories go back little more than the last 5 minutes of the conflict, to frame it as Palestinians always making the aggressive moves, and the Israelis merely 'responding with restraint and reluctance'.
And soren, that cartoon is just garbage. Palestinians are the native people defending their civilians behind them on their HOME TURF, the Israelis are the foreign aggressors from Latvia, Lithuania, Russia USA etc. who've brought civilians thousands of km's around the world onto the front line of their occupation. Remember when they occupied the Sinai Peninsula?? Within hours of it being announced, hundreds of Jewish civilians were trucked into the region with mobile homes in tow to be human shields. You are nothing but war-mongering hypocrites who support the murder of civilians. Despicable display of inhumanity. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Dec 31st, 2008 at 9:26pm
mozzaok,
Did you tell your wife anything about the situation before 1946? That it was 100% Muslim land? That almost every single Jew who livves there has come from another country? And most of them were not fleeing the holocaust as the popular myth goes, but most left quite good homes/lives in the USA, UK, Russia etc. to come for some ethnic 'adventure' in someone elses land. Did you ask your wife if she'd gladly get up and give her home to some foreign people who all of a sudden decided they wanted it claiming their ancestors lived there over 2000 years ago?? Would she accept being herded into a refugee camp and be content with insufficient water supply (after the foreign invaders drained about 90% of it for themselves), economic blockades that prevent basic food and medicine supplies from reaching you, and bombs being routinely dropped on your apartments buildings and snipers regularly killing civilians all over the place. This kind of stuff has been happening constantly to the Palestinians for the past 60 odd years, and these claims of "Pallywood" are just despicable, and resemble those neo-Nazis who claim the holocaust was fabricated and the photos were all faked. I've never heard of a single Westerner who visited the Palestinians territories, witnessing the situation for themselves, and didn't find the conditions there absolutely appalling, and the actions of the Zionists to be completely unjust and aggressive. Some Westerners have actually been murdered by the Zionists as well, such as the young American lady who was bulldozed to death by the IDF. If you search on Youtube, you'll also find videos of settlers attacking Western tourists, merely because they came to inspect the conditions of the Palestinians. Add to this the confessions of former IDF soldiers who've publically admitted they regularly target Palestinian civilians from sniper positions hundreds of metres away, trash their shops, take over and vandalise their houses to watch sporting events, and commit all sorts of injustices and inhumanities, yet the nay-sayers continue denying the facts, even after the aggressors themselves admit their own guilt. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by sprintcyclist on Dec 31st, 2008 at 9:29pm you are one eyed abu. read how many missiles hamas have sent over to israel this year how hamas refuse to recognise israel. israel is not dealing with normal people. they are dealing with islamics |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 1st, 2009 at 7:59am abu_rashid wrote on Dec 31st, 2008 at 9:26pm:
Pallywood - edited version. For those who have not seen it. Rock on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 1st, 2009 at 8:28am
Soren,
Just something that relates to your cartoon: Death toll rises as Israel continues Gaza assault Email IM Share By Dion Nissenbaum and Ahmed Abu Hamda, McClatchy Newspapers Dion Nissenbaum And Ahmed Abu Hamda, Mcclatchy Newspapers – Mon Dec 29, 6:08 pm ETJ ERUSALEM — The Israeli military extended its air campaign in the Gaza Strip on Monday, and the nation's defense minister warned that the country is in "an all-out war" with its Hamas adversaries, who control the Palestinian territory. The three-day death toll in Gaza climbed to 345 with more than 1,400 injured, and Gaza doctors said they were running out of blood, bandages and other supplies. Israel's air strikes failed, however, to prevent the deadliest day of Gaza rocket and mortar fire to hit the country. Gaza militants fired dozens of crude rockets and killed three Israelis in three separate attacks. Israeli officials said that a relatively sophisticated rocket killed one Israeli in Ashdod, Israel's southern port city about 20 miles north of the Gaza border. A mortar strike near the Gaza border killed a second Israeli, and a rocket fired at the coastal city of Ashkelon killed an Arab-Israeli construction worker. It was the highest death toll from Gaza rockets and mortars in a single day. Until Monday, Palestinian rocket fire had killed eight Israelis in the past two years. Since Israel launched the air strikes on Saturday, four Israelis have been killed in attacks from Gaza . As Israeli tanks, artillery batteries and troops stepped up preparations for a possible ground offensive, Defense Minister Ehud Barak announced that the attacks wouldn't end until the military had delivered a "severe blow" to Hamas . "We are in an all-out war against Hamas ," Barak told a special session of the Knesset, the Israeli parliament. In three days of air strikes, Israel has hit scores of Gaza targets and created a climate of fear among the 1.5 million Palestinians who live in the densely populated Mediterranean coastal strip. Gaza families were sleeping in stairwells and corridors in hopes of avoiding the Israeli air strikes, which have targeted Gaza City's largest university, as well as mosques that Israel claimed were being used to store weapons, build rockets or hide militants. Israel announced Monday that it would also attack private residences if they're used to house militants. "The IDF will continue to act against anyone who harbors terror in their residence, provides shelter to terrorists and their activities, and forces their children and spouses to act as human shields," the Israeli military said in a statement. In messages that have left many Palestinians rattled, Israel has been placing calls to Gaza residents to personally warn them that their homes, or adjacent buildings, were targets. Among those trapped in their homes was Wafa Kannan , a 27-year-old Gaza City resident who's been camping out in a narrow apartment corridor with her mother and two brothers since the strikes began on Saturday. Over the weekend, Kannan's mother received a recorded call on her cell phone from the Israeli military. When she heard who was calling, she hung up. Minutes later, the same call came to the landline in her apartment warning her to leave if she was storing weapons. In an apartment building across the street from Kannan and her family live four brothers who are Hamas militants. Israeli intelligence called the Hamas members to warn them that they were targets, Kannan said. Leaders at the local mosque urged neighbors to converge on the apartment building and act as human shields, she added. No one heeded the call, however, so the Hamas militants fled. While many families have fled the neighborhood, Kannan said that she and her family don't think there's anywhere to hide from the Israeli strikes. "You are not safe anywhere in Gaza ," Kannan said in a telephone interview from Gaza . "If it's dangerous in our house, it's dangerous in other houses too." The Israeli military said that it was trying to minimize civilian casualties and noted that Hamas itself has acknowledged that most of those killed were members of its security forces. http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20081229/wl_mcclatchy/3133187 |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 1st, 2009 at 8:29am
sprint,
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You are the one-eyed one here, because of the tables were turned and you were in their situation, you'd be singing a very different tune. This means your opinion on the issue is formed purely by your relationship to it. Whilst my opinion about it was formed before I had any relationship to it, and I was in fact in pretty much the same position as you, ie. your average Aussie watching the news, however I chose to look further into it, knowing that quite obviously the whole story wasn't being told. Some, such as yourself though are not interested in looking past the 6 o'clock brainwashing. Quote:
If Muslims took over Australia and turned it into an Islamic state and put you into a refugee camp, would you feel justified firing rockets to resist them? Or would you just accept it, and let 'bygones be bygones' and resign yourself to a life under military occupation? If you can answer this question honestly, then I can accept it as a valid argument. Besides the number of Hamas rockets, and the casualties they've caused for an entire year would not even equal 1 day of Israeli aggression. Quote:
Why should they recognise an entity which has taken over their land? Again, would you recognise an Islamic state created in Australia from the comfort of your refugee camp? Quote:
De-humanisation of the 'other'... Goebbels eat your heart out. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by mozzaok on Jan 1st, 2009 at 10:08am
Rehashing the historical claims of who has the greater right to be there is futile Abu.
There are two salient issues. Does Israel have the right to exist? Will Islamists ever accept Israel as a neighbour that they will leave in peace to pursue their own beliefs? Unfortunately, we have most impartial observers as saying NO, to both questions. That leaves Israel with the only choice, security through military power. We see this tiny pocket of Jews, surrounded by overwhelming numbers of Arab, and Islamic populations, who profess an open hostility toward them. So what choice do they have but to retaliate to the undeclared war against them, with a display of force designed to instil peace, through respect for their military superiority. I do not think it is too unlikely to see the green completely obliterated from the map above, within a generation, but once that is achieved, I would expect Israel to content itself with protecting it's borders, and not to go on any imperialist ground taking exercise. So we will likely see a whole new generation of palestinians be displaced, but after that, if they can get it through their heads, that they will always be on a hiding by pursuing violent aggression. They had their war, they lost, if they keep fighting, they will keep losing. How many palestinians need to die, is ultimately a question that the mullahs will have to answer for. As long as they groom each generation to be martyrs, they will not receive much compassion from other nations, if indeed they pointlessly die the martyrs death, in pursuit of an unrealistic, and unattainable goal. So next time you seek to apportion blame for the deaths of palestinians, do not forget to include the religious scholars who promote the continuance of an unwinnable war, on the basis of the idiotic belief that god wants them to die that way. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 1st, 2009 at 10:22am
The Arabs are motivated by religion, Islam, and not land or patriotism.
Borders and populations have been shifting forever, everywhere. There is nothing intrinsicly unique about the middle east except that it involves islam. Islam has bloody borders, as Huntington's obits are reminding us. Islam, not Araby. Look at the map and history of Europe, just over the last century. countless border changes, millions of people uprooted, shifted, resettled, some parts of the continent have been ruled by 3, 4 or more countries with 100 years. There is absolutely no terrorst movement by Sudetan Germans, by germans or french in elsace or lorrraine, in Trieste, Transylvania, Poland. There are no danish terroristss operating in Schleswig and Holstein. And so on. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 1st, 2009 at 12:20pm
Soren, look at the ETA.
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 1st, 2009 at 4:30pm
So the Arabs are now Basques? Fine. Two sets of nuts out of a dozen possibilities. What does this prove beyond the nuttiness?
Does this mean that the Arabs are NOT motivated by religion but by 19th century kaffir ideas of nationalism and democratic self-determination? |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 1st, 2009 at 4:35pm
I was more responding to
Quote:
And trying to keep religion out of it. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 2:14am Quote:
Hmmm... it seems like you're dleiberately leaving someone out there... It's not the Basques, easel already pulled you up on that.. who could it be... hmmm wouldn't be somewhere else that the British messed around with could it?? Can you help me on this one soren, I'm a little stuck. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Grendel on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 3:03am
Ah Mozz... those maps buddy what propaganda site did they come from?
Personally I think Gaza should be given to Israel... and the west bank to the people now calling themselves Palestinians. That solves the ridiculous geography of the situation. All jewish settlements on the Westbank should be considered Palestinian territory. Jerusalem should be treated as International territory. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 4:17am
Here's a few more for you soren...
The ARB have carried out quite a few (200 odd?) terrorist attacks during the 20th. century in ummm... Lebanon? no.. Palestine? no... France perhaps? Or the FLNC? responsible for thousands of attacks since their creation in 1976.. Perhaps they're a splinter faction of the PFLP?? no.. perhaps related to the KLA? no... Again, France perhaps? Or the CNLA? SNLA? Or MAC? they were quite active in bombings during the 1960's in ummm was it Baghdad? Or Beirut? nooo, I think not. How about the FALN or the EPB? Who between them have committed 100's of attacks against US targets in the latter part of the 20th. century.. wonder which Muslim country they come from?? And as we move down into Christian South America there's hundreds of independance movements, secessionist movements, paramilitary organisations, rebel armies etc. that are involved in armed struggle against governments they consider illegitimate. How you gonna manage to link all those to Islam? Your argument is just pathetic, because Germany had no militant organisations arise out of their 'nation-building' exercise, therefore it's a purely Muslim phenomenon. Along with the typically implied notion that all peoples of the world are decent, peaceful, civilised human beings, whilst Muslims are sub-human, barbaric, evil, violent savages, just looking for any excuse to break out the bombs. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Grendel on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 4:34am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks
just to name a few http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_rocket_attacks etc, etc, etc.... |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 4:40am
I know you're not the brightest spark grendel, but we're talking about sorens supposed claim that no rebel/secessionist organisations exist in Europe (and I extend that to former European colonies like South America). Why are you mentioning the number of Hamas attacks?
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 2:16pm
Filed under: Arab-Israeli Conflict, Cognitive Egocentrism, Demopaths and Dupes, Media, Pallywood — Richard Landes @ 1:26 pm — Print This Post
Whether by Israeli accident or Hamas engineering, expect a spectacular civilian massacre in the coming days, followed by an orgy of Pallywood photography, amplified by a compliant Western media, and even greater fury in the streets of the Muslim and Western world. It’s in the Hamas playbook… and will be until the media gets sober. Here’s the background, and the obscenity that will probably be played. Barry Rubin has laid out the various endgames open to Hamas, and how, when all else fails, it’s the media reserves you draw on to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. And it’s an old story: Arafat called the Western media, busy drinking at the Commodore Hotel in Beirut under the protection of his mafiosi while his “guerillas” participated in a civil war (1975-82) that killed 100,000 civilians, his best division. The pattern has long been clear, and most recently carried out with explosive effectiveness in the Lebanon war of 2006… when Israel is winning, get yourself a civilian massacre. Make sure that you have shocking civilian casualties that rally all the key players to your side — the other Arab nations and groups and individuals who are secretly, quietly rooting for your defeat, but who, once the images of dead children appear on the TV screens, watch the Arab street riot, and eventually can’t avoid siding with you, the “victim”… the European leaders and diplomats who piously kept an even-handed approach in the hopes that Israel might swiftly decapitate the snake… and the journalists and talking heads who have been chomping at the bit to jump on Israel for their disproportionate response. At that point, as in the weeks after Kfar Qana, the Israelis have lost the media war: the pressure to withdraw grows daily; the damage to Israel — and to any Jew who dares defend her — becomes unbearable. For the terrorist organization that targets both its enemy’s and its own civilians, just sit back and watch all your pieces fall into place. But what if the Israelis don’t make a mistake and kill a significant number of people in one blow, like Gaza Beach or Kfar Qana? Would Hamas actually concoct a massacre of their own people? To even suggest it is disgusting, even racist. How could anyone imagine that a leadership would deliberately kill their own people in order to win a war? Alas, that’s liberal cognitive egocefntrism. On the contrary, pre-modern elites do not hesitate to use violence against the unarmed populace in order to secure their authority. Machiavelli openly laid out the strategy, what Sheldon Wolin called “the economy of violence.” When the population is restive, as Napoleon put it so eloquently, give them a “whiff of grapeshot” and they’ll calm right down. And of course, in Arab political culture, this approach is not just the norm, it’s taken to pathological extremes… what Thomas Friedman called Hama rules. In 1982, Hafez al Asad, troubled by the increasing power of the Muslim Brotherhood, surrounded the town of Hama where they were strongest (population 20,000) with tanks, and for one week leveled the town with artilery fire, not letting anyone escape. At least half the town died in the process. And Syria has had no trouble from the Muslim Brotherhood ever since. In the case of Hamas in the early 21st century, the logic is equally ruthless, but far more hypocritical. They are, of course, capable of playing the economy of violence card, and the world saw if clearly (if only briefly due to the ADD of the newsmedia), back in 2006, when they took over Gaza in a bloodbath that saw 160 people killed, some children and old ladies shot execution style to make the point that no one messes with the new bosses. The tragic results were amply documented by a courageous Palestinian Human Rights organization, the PCHR: The first section details the developments in the Palestinian National Authority that followed the Palestinian parliamentary elections of January 2006, including acts of violence between the supporters of Fatah movements and those of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, which developed into several rounds of fighting between the two movements from April 2006 to June 2007. The second section highlights the latest round of fighting; how it began, how it developed and its end with Hamas’ takeover of the Gaza Strip. The third section details violations of human rights and international humanitarian law perpetrated or allegedly perpetrated by the parties of the conflict, including extra-judicial and willful killings, abduction and torture; using houses and apartment buildings in the fighting; attacks on civilian property; attacks on hospitals and medical and civil defense crews; endangering the lives of civilians in the streets and houses; attacks on peaceful demonstrations; and seizure, robbery and destruction of public, private and non-governmental institutions. The whole point of such exercises in the “economy of violence” is to let the population know that you are ruthless, that resistance is worse than useless, it is a ticket to oblivion. But Hamas is now playing a different game now, one that plays out in the media theater of war where you can’t openly attack your own people. On the contrary, in order to play the victim, you need someone to victimize you. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 2:17pm
Certainly, their ideology would justify such a move. As Hamas representative Fathi Hamad said last February, “Palestinains have created a human shield against the Zionist bombing machine.”
For the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly [Palestinians] created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: We desire death as you desire life. [Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas) Feb. 29, 2008] As if to illustrate both the international reach of this Islamic ideology of death and martyrdom and it’s repugnant quality (at least to a Western liberal), a Saudi cameraman filmed live the “making of a martyr” when the doctors pulled the plug on a girl in a Gaza hospital. Could she have lived, had Hamas allowed her to go to Egypt in one of the many unused ambulances waiting at their southern border? We will never know. What we can know with some assurance, is that, when the civilians die, the Western MSM will play their role in blaming Israel and either exonerating or remaining silent about the Arabs. This is an old story. The same year that Asad killed over 10,000 Syrian civilians in 1982, the Phalange (Lebanese Christians who were Israeli allies at the time) killed some 800 Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps south of Beirut. The media scarcely covered Hama, and lavished attention of Sabra and Shatilla, largely in the framework of holding Israel responsible. Thus, Peter Beaumont could doubly mislead his readership at the Guardian by comparing the “massacre” in Gaza with Sabra and Shatilla – in the former case it was Israelis attacking Hamas with minimal civilian casualties (under 20%, possibly under 10%) – hence not a massacre of civilians; in the latter case, a civilian massacre not carried out by Israelis. In the more recent case of the 2006 summer war, the key moment came when a building not far from Kafr Qana was hit in the middle of the night. Only nine hours later did the media arrive to a carefully orchestrated scene of rescue workers digging out dead babies. The ghoulish spectacle, amply enhanced with special effects aimed at tugging at the heart strings of viewers the world over, became a massive, grotesque exercise in misplaced moral indignation that easily slipped over into vicious anti-Semitism. While “rescue workers” triumphantly held aloft dead babies, cameramen, both Arab propagandists and Western ideologues, snapped their money-shots. So even as Hizbullah coerced Lebanese civilians into playing the role of human shields, the media excoriated Israel for their lack of concern for human life. In a rather courageous press conference in Mahmoud Abbas criticized Hamas for its mad intransigence, he gave the world a brief insight into the mentality that moves Hamas: “We want to protect Gaza, our people there, we don’t want genocide for our people. There are some who say, even if Gaza is wiped out, so be it. We reject this, this logic annot be accepted, has nothing to do with the interests of the people. We want to protect every drop of blood of our people… ” And he is not just speaking here of Hamas, he’s probably also referring to the mobs in the street calling for war with Israel and support for Hamas. The pathological symbiosis between Arab victimization politics and Western MSM moral Schadenfreude has become, over the last decades, something of a routine, inured to correction. It is predictable, and Hamas’ strategy depends on it. Thus, Palestinian media openly engage in the propaganda war, right under the nose of the Western media, from Pallywood in the streets, to Pallywood in the hospitals. A West Bank Palestinian recently complained of the manipulation: “A mother of one of the martyrs stood by the door of the intensive care unit while crying… relatives and those around her were telling her what she should say to the television cameras: ‘Say your son [before he died] prayed and went out.’ Another tells her: ‘Curse the Arab leaders’… The journalists [in the hospitals] are going overboard in their insensitivity and taking advantage of the [difficult] moments, with the explanation that they are showing this to the world. One cameraman told a mourning mother: ‘Hit your face, cry, do some action.’” [Al-Ayyam, December 29, 2008] Pierre Rehov caught a similar scene from 2002 of a doctor coaching a couple to lie about having their baby born while the father was driving because the Israelis stopped him at a checkpoint (used in Pallywood). So far, Hamas has Israel exactly where they want them, exactly where Hizbullah had them — thinking they’ve won the media war even as, for days the world has been treated to a constant barrage of Palestinian victims in picture and narrative, with violent demonstrations in the streets of the Arab and Western world pressuring their unwilling governments to side with feared and hated Hamas, with Jews around the world endangered, and no end in sight because Hamas will fight to the last drop of their own people’s blood… Time for a media spectacular. And Israel will only be the most obvious loser. http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/12/31/get-me-a-massacre-up-next-the-kfar-qana-of-operation-molten-lead/ |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 2:18pm
Hooray for Pallywood!
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 2:57pm
Report on rockets being fired by Hamas:
http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf from the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage 1 בינואר 2009 & Commemoration Center (IICC) [Higlights below, go to link for full report which is brief] 3. Following are three major characteristics of the use made by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations of rockets during 2008 (see chapter on statistical data for details): a. A dramatic increase in the extent of rocket fire and mortar shelling despite the six months long lull in the fighting: in 2008, the peak year of rocket fire and mortar shelling, a total of 3,278 rockets and mortar shells landed in Israeli territory (1,750 rockets and 1,528 mortar shells). That is a significant increase compared to 2007 (the number of landings in 2008 more than doubled) and compared to the previous years of the Palestinian terrorist campaign. b. A significant increase in the number of Israeli residents exposed to rocket fire within 40 km of the Gaza Strip: before 2008, the city of Sderot (about 20,000 residents) as well as villages around the Gaza Strip were the preferred target of rocket fire and mortar shelling. In 2008, other cities and hundreds of thousands of Israelis gradually entered the circle of fire: first the cities of Ashkelon and Netivot, and later, during Operation Cast Lead, Ashdod, Beersheba, and other cities within a range of 40 kilometers from the Gaza Strip. The rocket attacks created a new reality in which nearly one million Israeli residents (about 15 percent of the entire population) are exposed to rocket fire and mortar shelling in various levels of intensity. c. A significant improvement in the effectiveness of rockets and mortar shells possessed by Hamas and an increase in their quantity: in 2008, Hamas put into use 122-mm Grad launchers (for ranges of 20.4 km and approximately 40 km) and standard 120-mm mortars, which were smuggled into the Gaza Strip (in our assessment, from Iran). Those standard rockets and mortars, significantly different from self-manufactured rockets and mortars, not only increased the range of fire but also increased its effectiveness. That is a result of increasing the rockets’ warhead size and their fragmentation. As for the mortars—the standard 120-mm mortars are more precise and their range is greater than that of the other mortars possessed by Hamas and the other terrorist organizations. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 6:14pm abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 2:14am:
Comes with the territory. White man's burden, spreading civilisation. Some take to it, some don't. The Indians. for example, are finally twigging. The pakis don't. What's the difference? Same race, different, er, culture [i.e. your religion here]. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 6:29pm abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 4:17am:
Funny in a pathetic kind of way. You are now modelling yourself, the palestinians, on the - wait for it - Cornish National Liberation Army? The Corsican People's Frigging Liberation Front? It seeems any lunatic would do, the nuttier the better. Anything, so long as the Palestinians don't have to actually get down to work, organising a civil society, rubbish collection, a half-reliable legal system and a viable economy. Hell with that, eh? Get the aid money from the EU and the Great Satan and go on with the tribal corruption, feuding and self-pity, all in the pursuit of Allah-told-me-so sharia. The palestinians have an unerring instinct to go with the dead-end, dead-beat and corrupt multitude of bearded monsters. And you, people living in the safety of the evil west and under the Arab regimes you all bleat about, are responsible for encouraging them, mainitaining them in their psychotic delusion. But hey, Allah knows best.i |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 7:32pm Hooray - one of the hamas leaders has been taken out. The scum tried to get his own kin to be suicide bombers. Good to see him gone. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 2nd, 2009 at 7:35pm
On eve of his death, Hamas leader Nizar Rayan predicted victoryFont Size: Decrease Increase Print Page: Print By Adel Zaanoun | January 02, 2009
Article from: Agence France-Presse THE day before a powerful blast sent his headless body flying out of his Gaza home, senior Hamas leader Nizar Rayan predicted that the Islamist movement would defeat Israel. "God willing, Hamas will win," Rayan said in a vitriol-laden speech that the movement's television broadcast just after he, his four wives and two of his daughters were killed in the Israeli blitz of the Gaza Strip on Thursday. Rayan, who was 51, is the most senior Hamas leader killed since Israel unleashed its massive bombardment on Saturday in response to persistent rocket fire from the enclave. Israeli F-16 jets fired two missiles at Rayan's five-storey house in the Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza. The powerful explosion hurled his decapitated body out into the street, according to witnesses. "It was like an earthquake," a neighbour said of the massive blast. A dozen neighbouring houses were destroyed or damaged in the explosion which killed 12 people in all and brought to 414 the death toll since "Operation Cast Lead" started. The Israeli air force said the secondary blasts demonstrated the house was used for weapons storage, and claimed it was also a communication centre. "In addition, a tunnel was located under the house and was used for the escape of terror operatives," it said. In the minutes following the strike, dozens of people rushed to the scene, pulling bodies from the rubble including those of the two girls, aged seven and 10. A neighbour, Mohammed Al-Madhun, 75, watched flames emerging from his building but refused the leave. "I want to die like Sheikh Nizar," he said, referring to the bearded Hamas commander's honorary title. Rayan was a hardliner within the Islamist movement. A few months after Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007, Rayan vowed at a Gaza City rally that the Islamists would also seize control in the Israeli-occupied West Bank which is administered by Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24864540-12377,00.html |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 5th, 2009 at 4:25am
soren,
Quote:
I was referring to the Irish and the dozens of militant groups that arose amongst them to fight for their liberation from an invading oppressor. In order to counter your pathetic claim that only people who subscribe to Islam would do so, since all other human beings are normal, civilised, decent, peace loving humans. Last time I checked, the Irish were very white. Quote:
Not modelling them on anyone, merely exposing the pathetic weakness of your claim that all non-Muslim peoples cope with occupation, invasion, division of their land etc. by being peaceful co-operative civilised humans. Compared to the 'sub-human' Muslims who always resist it with barbarism and violence. Quote:
As others have already aptly pointed out, the Palestinians are disliked in the West because they don't lay down and accept the demands and aggressions of the Zionists, instead they resist and fight to expel it. Of course you dislike such resistance as it's against your interests. You try to cloak it behind some concocted carrot-on-a-stick tale of how advanced and civilised they'll be if they just submit to your demands. The Palestinians have a history which you, and most other johnny come lately's here don't seem to have studied. They spent about 30 years waiting on such promises to come to fruition, they didn't form terrorist groups or commit suicide bombings, they barely did anything, other than a bit of regular combat between guerilla forces and soldiers. However, after about 30 years of empty promises and continued Zionist expansion, most Palestinians woke up to the harsh reality that they were an abandoned people, as far as the West and other non-Muslims were concerned. Over 30 years of false Soviet, US, UN and European promises, the Palestinians realised the only way they were going to get justice and a chance at liberating themselves was through their own self determination and their uncompromising will. You think you can come along in the last 5 minutes of the ordeal and dangle a carrot in front of them, and they'll just jump at it? They were jumping at carrot after carrot long before you were even born. They know it's all a load of bollocks and I don't think you'll be getting a 'bite' today. I'd suggest if you really want to make an informed analysis of the situation of the Palestinians, that you at least study where they've been and what they've been through. You might not care, but at least you won't look like such a goose when offering such 'suggestions' for their future. Quote:
Again, if you had even an inkling of knowledge about the history of this situation, you'd know that for most of their history they actually abandoned Islam (I assume 'bearded monsters' refers to islamists) and instead turned to Communism, Socialism, Anarchism, Capitalism, Democracy and every other ideology you could imagine that they thought would get them the help of the world to fix their situation. All of them were just full of empty promises. Finally, they returned to Islam, and you think you've got any chance of returning them back to your false and empty promises? Forget it. As I said, go and study their history, so as to not further embaress yourself. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 5th, 2009 at 5:05am
Calanen,
Quote:
It's quite ironic that if non-Muslim civilians are killed, Muslims are the most barbaric uncivilised murderers on the face of the earth. Yet if Muslim civilians are killed it's all just a farce and a mock up and you have no problem belittling it as their leaders actually led them to the slaughter, just to win a few cheap propaganda points. Let me tell you something. the Israeli government enlists the services of some of the largest PR firms in the world to dupe half wits like yourself into forming such an opinion. The Palestinians can't afford such luxuries in the propaganda war. So if anyone is spinning you a yarn, it's probably your friend here Mr. Rubin. Just like whenever there's a scuffle between the IDF and Palestinians, without fail, we can be guaranteed to read that there was a gunman or militant amongst the Palestinians, and that the IDF were merely 'retaliating'. There's 2 things that are always 100% guaranteed certainties in the Middle East. Arab dictators % of the vote and the IDF's reports that anyone they shot was a militant, harbouring a militant or was being used as a human shield for militants. Unfortunately for you and Mr. Rubin, some ex-IDF servicemen have come out and told the truth, that this is all a load of bollocks. It's forr a good reason that international media are being prevented from entering Gaza, even though an Israeli High Court decision has ruled they must be allowed in... national security and all.. on the advice of the PR firms, no doubt. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by mantra on Jan 5th, 2009 at 5:06am Quote:
I don't know why you bother Abu. The posts you're responding to aren't representative of the average Australian or the average person anywhere. Many of us feel deep sympathy for the Palestinians. This is only an extract, but if any of these pro-Israel posters had an inkling of the suffering of the Palestinian people, they might possibly show a little humanity. Due to Israeli blockade life in Gaza has deteriorated rapidly. The number of Palestinians in Gaza living in absolute poverty has increased sharply. Today more than 80% of Gazans are jobless. 95% of Gaza’s industrial operations are suspended because they cannot import raw material nor export products due to Israeli siege. Agricultural sector is paralyzed and about 40,000 workers, who depend on cash crops, have now no income. With the Israeli gun-boats patrolling the shores of Gaza and sinking or seizing every Palestinian fishing boat the fishing industry, many Gazans depend on for their living, has come to a complete halt. Many Gazans depend on goods that are smuggled through tunnels underneath the Egyptian borders.centration camps in mubers e to Israeli restrictions and crossing c Electricity and water service infrastructure are non-existent because of Israeli prohibitions of importing spare parts and fuel necessary to keep the systems running. Hospitals cannot generate electricity to keep their life-sustaining equipments running. Sewage and water treatment facilities had completely halted, thus people don’t have clean drinking water, and sewage has been pouring into the sea contaminating its water. Schools have been closed due to lack of books and electricity and due to high students drop out looking for jobs. Illiteracy is increasing. Educational system is collapsing. Without schools and without jobs, poor, hungry and frustrated young Palestinians of Gaza have nothing to do except brewing more and more hatred towards Israelis, the cause of their misery, and contemplating more aggressive self-defense mechanisms in the hope to deter or at least to balance the daily Israeli terror they are facing. Israel stated on Friday Nov. 21st it will maintain its closure of Gaza Strip despite all the international concern over the deterioration of the humanitarian situation in the area. Israeli officials claimed that this decision came due to firing missiles at Israeli settlements. We should note that Palestinians had observed the cease fire agreement struck last June 19th, but Israel, who broke each and every previous cease fire agreements, had broken this one too when Israeli tanks rolled into the Strip, Wednesday Nov. 4th , and murdered several Palestinians. The missiles were fired as a response to the Israeli attack. Since the year 2000, 3000 Gazans and 12 Siderot Israeli residents have been killed. Israel, an occupying power, is routinely and indiscriminately attacking Gaza’s civilians with the most sophisticated weaponry; tanks, fighter planes, drones, Apache helicopters and laser-guided missiles. When some of these civilians are forced to become militaristic in order to defend their families with whatever ingeniously they can manufacture such as rudimentary home-made rockets and mines, the pro-Zionist biased international political communities ignore all Israeli terrorist attacks, deny the Palestinians their right of self-defense and call them terrorists. When the EU High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy (CFSP), Javier Solana, stated in a New York press release in Nov. 22nd that the EU will not be able to do any more to break the Israeli blockade against Gaze, he is tacitly giving Israel implied acceptance and encouragement to continue its crimes. The international political bodies including the Arab League are just paying lip service confirming Israel’s right to self-defense while denying this right to Gazans, and are begging Israel not to launch a major military operation into Gaza. Some Arab leaders are Zionist Arabs. Like Zionist leaders of WWII era, who ignored, encouraged, and benefited from the Jewish Holocaust, these Zionist Arab leaders are also ignoring the Gaza holocaust. Some of them, like Palestinian President Abbas and Egyptian President Mubarak, are actively contributing to this holocaust for a fistful of American Dollars. Abbas and his cronies in the Ramallah assigned government had opposed, plotted against, and attacked the democratically elected Palestinian government of Hamas in Gaza. Egyptian Mubarak’s government had repeatedly refused to give life to Gaza by opening border crossings into Gaza (a border between two Arab entities) citing international agreements and national security. The fallacy of these excuses were exposed when the Egyptian Minister of Foreign Affairs, Ahmad Aboul Gheit, disclosed last Wednesday 11th of November that the closure of the Rafah crossing between Egypt and Gaza comes for pure political reasons, and for the purpose of punishing one particular Palestinian side (Hamas). He explained that opening the Rafah crossing would mean recognizing Hamas as the legitimate Palestinian government. The speaker of the Egyptian Foreign Ministry, Husam Zaki, also declared that the closure came in support for Palestinian President Abbas, who requested the closure. http://www.amin.org/look/amin/article |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 5th, 2009 at 5:17am
mantra,
Quote:
I'm an optimist :) There's still hope for these people. Quote:
I know, i've seen polls and I regularly speak with average Australians about this issue, most of whom may not support the Palestinians, but they do feel sympathy for them. We are very different from the US, thankfully, in this respect, and perhaps more in line with the European view. Generally it is only right wing Christian extremists or white power types who strongly support Israel. Outside of these groups, they have very little support. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 5th, 2009 at 5:17am
I know a girl who went to Palestine and couldn't get out, she had to sneak across borders. It's a pretty bad situation they are forced to live in there.
It's a pretty scary situation, with the USA/Israel. I hope India goes ahead sticks their 120 000 troops that are being considered in Afghanistan, and if their offer is refused, march them in and kick the USA out. The Indians are definitely not pro-Islam, so there is no worry there to the Western world. And it would make the world safer if the USA decided to go on Iran. I feel bad for Iran, global propaganda machine is working against them. One one side they have Afghanistan which houses a lot of US and foreign SF, and Pakistan, a US puppet. On the other side Iraq, Turkey, and Kuwait, proven to back the USA 100% (at this stage), excluding Turkey, and then just south of Iraq, Saudi Arabia. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 5th, 2009 at 7:51am Quote:
You can disagree with me all you want, doesn't worry me. But let's get one thing very clear. Just because I have a different opinion to yours, does not make me a 'half-wit'. So let's get away from the ad hominem attacks concerning my alleged lack of intelligence. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 5th, 2009 at 12:15pm
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
A good counter to the usual Palestinian propaganda that the left biased media goes on with. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 5th, 2009 at 1:33pm Quote:
Abu, what about at Munich? That was less than 30 years. And they would have been having to be training for a long time to get to that kind of standard. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 5th, 2009 at 3:07pm I fail to see why the UN are making any noises about Israel trying to have peace. palenstinians freely elected hamas. Who promised to rid the world of Israel, hamas have always desired death. hamas have sent thousands of rockets over into israel. Go get 'em Israel. This is the only way to deal with islamics. They dont reason or negotiate. They desire death or oppressive islam over all. They should be thanking Israel for marytering them all. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 3:43am
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cbe_1201046708
Have a look at this video about the rocket attacks on Israel, showing regular people in Israel having to put up with them, continually since 2005 - when Israel made the mistake of giving the Palestinians what they wanted, withdrawing from Gaza. But Gaza just became the new staging area for the war of annihilation against the Jews. No good Israeli deed goes unpunished. In the first few seconds of footage, the Red Color warning system is heard. This detects rockets being fired and gives you a few seconds (not long at all watch) to take cover. The system is saying the words Tzeva Adom, which means Red Color, or, Red Alert. Israel is the only country in the world that has showed that much restraint in the face of continual provocation. How many rockets would Israel have to send into Iran, Egypt, Jordan - for them to retaliate? Probably 1. But in the topsy turvy right is wrong and wrong is right of the Dreamland Left, Israel is supposed to keep copping missle attacks and suicide bombers and do nothing in response. Ever. Here's another one: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=dfc_1230603635 |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by mozzaok on Jan 6th, 2009 at 4:18am
To be fair to the loony left, and the Islamic extremists, they say Israel does have two options to behave decently.
a; Leave or b; Put up with being attacked, continually. When you think about the weird alliance between the loony left, and Islam, it is a bizarre relationship, between one group which, ostensibly, champions all personal freedoms, and another which advocates the total subjugation of self, in favour of placing all responsibility into the hands of theocratic despots. Very peculiar bedfellows, with one binding belief, that everything from the west, is evil. The only balanced thing about them is that they have a chip on both shoulders. :) |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:53am
Calanen,
Quote:
A good example of how the Israeli PR campaign has managed to seep into the minds of the fickle. Israelis, most of those in Sderot and other towns close to Gaza are new immigrants from nice homes in the US, UK etc. are just 'regular people' (you know like you and me, normal everyday type of people) have to put up with rocket attacks. Palestinians on the other hand, who are just living in their land that they've been in for thousands of years, don't have another home that they left for the 'adventure of aliyah', are some kind of sub-human that don't put up with rocket fire, and their apartments being turned into dust, they actually deserve it, because they're sub-humans, not regular people like you and me. Don't you ever wonder why thousands of nameless Palestinians have just been obliterated out of history over the past few years, by the invading Zionists forces. You didn't hear a thing about them except that they were somehow linked to militants and therefore their namelessness is warranted, and we shouldn't even associate them with humanity, they were just figures, statistics. Unlike every single Zionist who dies, and we hear about their life story on the 6 o'clock news, and see pictures of their grieving relatives, and we hear their names, and maybe something about their aspirations for the future which have now been horribly stolen from them by some barbarous act... Yet you have the nerve to come up with terms like "Pallywood"?? I think anyone with some basic common sense should be able to look at this situation and see that nothing about it is balanced, nothing about it is just, nothing about it is fair, nothing about it is right, it is all tipped quite obviously in someone's favour. Doesn't that bother you? Doesn't arouse any suspicion in you? Or does your xenophobic hatred for Islam and all associated with it blind you to it all? Awaits another 3 post cut and paste from jihadwatch or dhimmiwatch, or some Jewish blog.... Don't bother mate, we've heard it all before. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by abu_rashid on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:58am
mozzaok,
There's leftist groups in Israel who also support the Palestinians, and have been for many years. They are not in any alliance with Hamas or other Islamists, they just see that the occupation and the militant actions of the IDF are wrong. This attempt to frame it as looney leftists and Islamists against all the other sane rational people of the world (you know, us Zionists and Westerners) is a very inaccurate dichotomy. I can see you know little more about the conflict than your wife does. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 6th, 2009 at 8:34am
mod: cut out the nicknames abu - so has hamas continually sent rockets over to israel ?
yes/no ?? |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 9:53am
Sderot: Those who can afford it have already left
Mayor of rocket-battered town estimates 3,000 of residents –10% to 15% - have deserted city, many others remain only 'on paper'. Aid organizations present higher figures – up to 25% of population Shmulik Hadad Published: 03.19.08, 09:27 / Israel News One issue Sderot's mayor doesn’t like to talk about is the number of residents who have left the rocket-battered southern town. Only talking about it, Eli Moyal believes, causes many people to leave. In difference speeches and conventions he reiterates that the residents are strong and are not abandoning the city, but are only "stepping out to relax." Helping Out Gaydamak brings portable shelters to Sderot / Elad Rubinstein Billionaire arrives in rocket-battered town with trucks carrying five new portable bomb shelters to be placed in various locations across Sderot. 'If there's demand for more structures, we shall consider it positively,' Gaydamak pledges In an honest talk, however, he is forced to admit that 10% to 15% of the city's residents – about 3,000 people – no longer live in Sderot, according to his estimates. Aid organizations present higher figures – up to 25% of the population. It's not easy to obtain accurate data on the number of people who have left the city. Municipality officials explain that a significant number of those who leave don’t officially change their address, for tax considerations and in order to continue receiving benefits. In one of the recent waves of escalation, Moyal told visiting Defense Minister Ehud Barak that every such wave caused dozens of additional families to run off away from the Qassam range. The almost accurate rocket fire and the heavy damage caused by the Qassams have managed to crack a part of this sorrowful city's public strength. The economic distress has only worsened the problem. "We must admit that those who can afford it financially have left the city. Most of the population left behind is the weaker population," says Sasson Sara, chairman of the local parents' committee, who owns a grocery store in the city. "Everything I say in regards to this issue is only an estimate, and all those presenting figures are not being accurate," says Moyal, who is waiting for the Central Bureau of Statistics' 2009 report in order to get the real picture. "That would be the most reliable datum." "The big bang," as far as he is concerned began with the escalation in May 2007. "I saw it as mayor, but also as a resident. You suddenly see your neighbors leaving, friends leaving. There is a kind of movement." Hundreds of 'For Sale' signs One way to examine the trend is through the number of schoolchildren. According to the head of the city's education department, backed by Mayor Moyal, a drop of 9.8% was noted in the number of students at the beginning of the school year. Municipality officials have said in the past that these were only students who moved to secure schools, but now they admit that these children's parents have apparently left the city. "It's not easy, but this is what we have to deal with," says Moyal. Those who take to the city's streets cannot ignore the hundreds of "For Sale" signs. About a month ago, members of the Yedid association appealed to the Knesset to discuss the residents' inability to meet their mortgage payments, as many have rented an apartment outside the city while continuing to pay the mortgage on their Sderot house. Residents hide as rocket hits city (Photo: AP) Yedid Associate Director Ran Melamed is considering filing a petition with the High Court of Justice against the supervisor of the banks. "One must understand that people are leaving Sderot and living in distant places. About 25% are in problematic situations. "Only this morning I received a phone call from a woman who moved to Ein Tzurim and wants to return to Sderot, but won't do it at the moment because she is worried about her children. In any case, she cannot meet the mortgage payments anymore and cannot pay double." Melamed blames the government for the situation. "They don’t want to be seen as abandoning Sderot and sending the residents outside. This is a political answer, and the result is clear. Those who can afford to stay outside Sderot do it. Those who remain 'screwed' are those who have always been screwed." http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3520956,00.html |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:15am abu_rashid wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:53am:
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. They had elections. Free to get on with the job of improving their own lives. Aid money from EU and US. What do they do? Build a society? No, Fire rockets into Israel. Gaza was unoccupied. They had NO reason to fire rocketrs into Israel. Absolutely none. But they still made it a priority. Why? I think because they don't give a toss about sovereignty, freedom and all that. The only thing that matters is the destruction of Israel. That's all they care about. Fatah is the corrupt slow jihadis, Hamas the fanatical fast jihadis. It is ONLY about jihad. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by sprintcyclist on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:56am
mod: deleted abu - you have not answered my question ?
Is that because you cannot delete or ban me here ?? many people would call that cowardly "ISRAEL has taken the fateful step of a ground offensive in the Gaza Strip because ultimately the threat it faces from Hamas is strategic, even existential. Hamas has fired more than 6000 mostly Qassam rockets into Israel over the past four years. They have killed only about two dozen people, although in other acts of terrorism Hamas has killed hundreds of Israelis. But Israel must stop, or greatly reduce, the rockets from Gaza. It is an absolute strategic necessity. Perhaps the stupidest line of analysis to emerge in recent days has been to compare the deaths from Hamas rockets in Israel to traffic fatalities and say that Israel should relax. To grasp the nature of the strategic threat Hamas poses, it is necessary to place it in the context of its ally, Hezbollah, in southern Lebanon, and their common backer and puppet master, Iran. During Israel's 2006 war with Hezbollah, rockets continued to rain down on Israel as far as the big industrial city of Haifa. There was an acute fear within Israel, although not much spoken of, that Hezbollah rockets would hit a massive oil refinery in Haifa. The flow-on effects from this could be catastrophic. During that war, much of northern Israel was effectively paralysed, and certainly closed for normal business. Despite the mistakes Israel made in that war, it got some things right. At the start of the conflict, it knocked out Hezbollah's longest-range missiles that could reach Israel's biggest city, Tel Aviv. And since then, the missiles have not come back from the north. ...." http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24877778-5013460,00.html |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 4:33pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=500_1231216177
More Pallywood, little chubby girl from central Pallywood casting (guess she wasnt affected by the food shortage), is miraculously healed during the course of the footage. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by mozzaok on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:00pm
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc5_1204936313
Yes, they certainly appear to have no qualms about lying to incite as much hatred as possible. The link above investigates the incident which sparked the 2006 summer war, a family picnic, bombed by Israeli devils? To Palestinians, and the western media, that was the truth of the matter, but truth was obviously an early casualty in this conflict. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:09pm
I don't know how anyone can support what Israel do.
Especially you sprint, you call yourself a Christian and encourage death at the hands of humans. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:15pm Quote:
That was the beach right? I remember the photos. Slight scorch marks on the earth, clearly not a 155mm tank shell, there would have been a huge crater. More likely was a HAMAS mine put on the beach to kill Israeli commandos that scored an own goal. But why not use it to propaganda advantage? The Western media laps that stuff up. As for Pallywood, on it goes: Man in Brown jacket being carried into hospital after being hit with ebil jew missile, by a comrade Palestinian, bravely carrying him because he is injured: As testimony to the miraculous work of Hamas doctors and the miracles of Allah, brown jacket man is now fully recovered to weep in another staged photo opportunity: Or how about let's play 'Pass the injured baby' around the Hamas stooges in the hospital. Al Ja Reuters is separately identifying both of these men as the 'father' of the infant, the same infant, appearing in both pictures. Hooray for Pallywood! |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:29pm
How old are those photos Calanen?
If you think the USA/Israel/everyone else doesn't propaganda, you are mistaken. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 6:03pm easel wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:29pm:
Current, released today or yesterday. http://www.daylife.com/photo/0eToeOx9YrgMg/A_Palestinian_father_carries_his_wounded_baby_daughter http://www.daylife.com/photo/07HqgalbyofnJ/A_Palestinian_carries_a_child_into_the_Shifa_hospital Quote:
Post their propaganda too if you like, I don't mind. I'm just posting Pallywood. Pallywood loves to stage a scene though, in ways that I've not seen the US or Israel do. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by easel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 6:12pm
I thought I had seen those photos before, is all. Must be mistaken, or de ja vu, or they are using the same ones still.
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:38pm Calanen wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 6:03pm:
you mean like half the movies hollywood spins out about the war? nooo they're not propaganda at all body of lies is one recent example not to mention the spin doctors from israel on the tv talking absolute tripe. I saw some israeli military defence guy on the tv tonight talking about how they're sending a message that hamas firing rockets will not be tolerated- ignoring the fact that israel actually broke the cease fire back in november http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4 |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:49pm Gaybriel wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:38pm:
Well, here's more crazy propaganda for you: Israel pulled out of gaza in 2005. It was completely judenfrei. Still, since hamas was elected in 2006, they fired thousands of rockets into Israel - which was NOT occupying gaza. Hamas had absolutely no justification to fire those rockets. So - why do it? |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:52pm
first of all that has nothing to do with propaganda
secondly- I would say hamas fired the rockets because of the ongoing conflict, wouldn't you? but again- I was talking about propaganda about the conflict |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:57pm Quote:
Tu quoque (IPA: /tu ˈkwoʊkwɛ/, Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term used to mean a type of logical fallacy. The argument states that a certain position is false or wrong and/or should be disregarded because its proponent fails to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions. Contents [hide] 1 Illegitimate use 1.1 You-too version 1.1.1 Legal aspects 1.2 Inconsistency version 2 Legitimate uses 2.1 You-too version 2.2 Inconsistency version 3 See also 4 References Illegitimate use In many cases tu quoque arguments are used in a logically fallacious way, to draw a conclusion which is not supported by the premises of the argument. You-too version This form of the argument is as follows: A makes criticism P. A is also guilty of P. Therefore, P is dismissed. This is an instance of the two wrongs make a right fallacy. Example: "He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:02pm Gaybriel wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:52pm:
There is ongoing conflict only because hamas has been firing missiles into israel. The conflict is about 'enough is enough', in a nutshell. If this is propaganda -unmask me. Start by saying what reason hamas, the electeed party in Gaza, had to shell israel which pulled OUT of gaza before hamas came to power. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:05pm Soren wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:02pm:
I think the plight of palestinians has been fairly covered here the propaganda I refer to is the israeli govt denying what has been blatantly proven to be true. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:07pm
I thought this thread was about the israeli bombings now. Why are you dodging it all of a sudden?
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:11pm Soren wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:07pm:
I'm not-I've just said it all before and don't feel like repeating myself. read my other posts |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:19pm Calanen wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 10:57pm:
whilst your ability to cut and paste is nothing short of impressive - you asked for examples of propaganda by america and I gave them should I not answer your question next time? would that be better? at which point did I say that america's use of propaganda made any use of propaganda ok? like I said- you asked for an example and I gave you one |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by soren on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:30pm Gaybriel wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:11pm:
I had a look. I could see no reference in your posts to hamas rockets and the causes of the current israeli bombings. You are dodging because you cannot justify why it is OK for hamas to fire rockets when gaza is NOT occupied by israel. So you state that you had said it all before when in fact you have not. Isn't that a form of propaganda? It is. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Calanen on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:47pm Quote:
No I didnt. I said to easel, but it may as well apply to you too - post examples of American propaganda too, I dont mind. But nobody has posted any staged photos. You weren't posting examples, you were doing a 'tu quoque'. Which is a fave Islamic tactic. |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Gaybriel on Jan 7th, 2009 at 2:28pm Calanen wrote on Jan 6th, 2009 at 11:47pm:
no I was answering a question you put out there. yes it was to easel but I was giving my opinion. my opinion is that america also puts out propaganda and that some of that propaganda is produced in hollywood movies such as body of lies so now you want staged photos? not just examples of propaganda? the criteria keeps narrowing. how convenient again- where did I say this justifies pallowood as you call it. wow- I'm using 'islamic tactics' am I. amazing- I must have taken a course somewhere |
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Title: Re: Israeli bombing Post by Grendel on Jan 7th, 2009 at 2:31pm
mod: personal attack
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