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Member Run Boards >> Environment >> Rethinking Observed Warming http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1228960525 Message started by Grendel on Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:55am |
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Title: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:55am
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2008/12/03/rethinking-observed-warming/
Believe it or not, it is possible that aspects of the traditional greenhouse gas explanation could be largely wrong, and if you think we are crazy, let’s visit an article just published in the prestigious journal Climate Dynamics. “Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases (GHGs) over land.” Stating “global warming may not be occurring in quite the manner one might have imagined” is an interesting way to report that the entire global warming – greenhouse gas buildup link (largely unchallenged) may be a quite a bit off. Time will tell, but don’t look for a lot of press coverage coming from the Poland meeting of this interesting research challenging the gospel of global warming. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:14pm Grendel wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 11:55am:
Now you're definitely sounding like a broken record ;D Let me dissect what that report is saying further, but it seems unlikely that the oceans could drive anything. There is a conserable lag between the thermal behaviour of oceans and land due to thermal inertia. (ΔH°= smΔt) |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:34pm
I'm a broken record?????
Pot, kettle..... black. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6 UN Blowback: More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims Study: Half of warming due to Sun! –Sea Levels Fail to Rise? - Warming Fears in 'Dustbin of History' POZNAN, Poland - The UN global warming conference currently underway in Poland is about to face a serious challenge from over 650 dissenting scientists from around the globe who are criticizing the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and former Vice President Al Gore. Set for release this week, a newly updated U.S. Senate Minority Report features the dissenting voices of over 650 international scientists, many current and former UN IPCC scientists, who have now turned against the UN. The report has added about 250 scientists (and growing) in 2008 to the over 400 scientists who spoke out in 2007. The over 650 dissenting scientists are more than 12 times the number of UN scientists (52) who authored the media hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:35pm
The U.S. Senate report is the latest evidence of the growing groundswell of scientific opposition rising to challenge the UN and Gore. Scientific meetings are now being dominated by a growing number of skeptical scientists. The prestigious International Geological Congress, dubbed the geologists' equivalent of the Olympic Games, was held in Norway in August 2008 and prominently featured the voices and views of scientists skeptical of man-made global warming fears. [See Full report Here: & See: Skeptical scientists overwhelm conference: '2/3 of presenters and question-askers were hostile to, even dismissive of, the UN IPCC' ]
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:36pm
It's hard to take a group of scientists seriously if they take Al Gore seriously.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:43pm
rotflmao
YOU left off the UN fd... how disingenuous of you... and typical of the debate. many people in the world took Gore and take Gore very seriously after all the movie/doco/propaganda piece did propel the issue. Oh and he did get a Nobel prize. So puhlease... do leave off eh. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by sprintcyclist on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:51pm Grendel - it sounds as though the article insinuates the oceans are causing global warming. I agree with muso. Very hard to imagine the oceans drive anything. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 12th, 2008 at 7:27am Grendel wrote on Dec 11th, 2008 at 12:34pm:
Mate, slow down and look at the last three paragraphs of your first post. That's what I meant - ok? |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 10:06am
Lots of things affect climate sprint... and the system reacts in various ways to these changes, that's the whole point.
I'm still pretty open minded about the whole thing unlike muso and fd. Who seem to need an enemy to berate for dissenting their pseudo-religious belief. They admit they have no PROOF for their belief, and belittle others who ask for some proof. I myself, like to have some proof for things like this. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2008 at 10:34am
There is such a thing as being too open minded. Sometimes it helps to be critical of what you are reading. You copy and paste a lot of illogical articles against AGW without apprently thinking about what they say, to the extent that you will post articles that directly contradict each other. And no matter how many times I point out the absurdity of "frost this morning, therefor no global warming" you still seem unable to recognise this line of argument and repost it everytime you find it presented in a slightly different form.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:01am
LOL... oh dear don't let me reproduce the opinions and thoughts of other people or scientists etc... oh no... that may be some sort of environmental sin.
Stop wasting my time all you do is post ad hom and nonsense. YOU have no PROOF for your belief the one you continually deny when asked. As for the "frost' rubbish you keep posting... you are only fooling fools and making yourself more disingenuous and ridiculous in my eyes. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:02am
You are welcome to reproduce them. I just think it would be of great value if you were a bit more critical and selective, rather than regurgitating anti anti-AGW tripe you stumble across on the internet.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:06am
dwmt....
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:10am
toodles
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:17am
You flaming me again? (mod: deleted. Personal attacks and gratuitous profanities will not be tolerated)
Typical of a hypocritical moderator. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:56am
Sorry, I didn't realise 'toodles' was a flame.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 10:31pm
You're still a (mod: deleted. Personal attacks and gratuitous profanities will not be tolerated)....
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 12th, 2008 at 10:33pm
So this is what your argument boils down to eh?
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 10:41pm
No... unfortunately its what YOU boil down to.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:02pm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/07/22/roy-spencers-testimony-before-congress-backs-up-moncktons-assertions-on-climate-sensitivity/
Quote:
Etc, etc, etc.... |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 12th, 2008 at 11:06pm Quote:
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 13th, 2008 at 2:44am
http://newsbusters.org/node/13731
Quote:
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 13th, 2008 at 6:40am
Well, well - That's an improvement. We've graduated from personal insults. At least now you are talking (well cutting and pasting) about climate sensitivities, which is getting into the area of greatest uncertainty.
Have you searched for the balanced responses to these points yet? If you are really taking an open minded approach, that's the least I'd expect you to do. Have you looked into the actual people making the assertions? Are they even qualified to comment. Again if you really want to be open minded, you need to check if politicians are involved. If it's mainly politicians that are making all the noise, then that should ring alarm bells straight away. Politicians are eminently capable of making noise. It's what they are good at. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 13th, 2008 at 1:48pm
hypocrite
all you do is ad hom and ridicule... it's what you people do. dwmt. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 13th, 2008 at 4:00pm Grendel wrote on Dec 13th, 2008 at 1:48pm:
Is that your standard response now? I guess it beats thinking through a logical response. Grendel - DMML, NPATW, AWBYE and most importantly AWTSF. I was actually complimenting you before. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by mozzaok on Dec 13th, 2008 at 4:31pm
Ad Hom?
Sometimes it is justified. http://climateprogress.org/2008/05/22/should-you-believe-anything-john-christy-or-roy-spencer-say/ Well this scientist does not have much good to say about your new denialist messiah. Just keep posting your latest and greatest denialist propaganda. Don't even bother noticing the mutually exclusive nature of the positions you champion in your vigour to decry and deny, after all, reliability and credibility are obviously not criteria that concern you. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by mozzaok on Dec 13th, 2008 at 4:38pm
Almost forgot, while I am at it, I should add that Roy Spencer's credibility as a serious scientist was not anything that I am qualified to comment on, but the fact that he is a publicly avowed "Creationist", does not inspire confidence.
I guess if you think we are all "rib people", and the earth has been around for about six thousand years, it is your right, as it is mine to think you must be freakin' mental. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 13th, 2008 at 5:17pm
Christy and Spencer are also responsible for the misreporting of satellite data. For a long time there was a discrepancy between land based stations and the satellite record. Subsequent work by others cleared up that discrepancy. (edit: Sorry - that's what your linked article said - I should have read it first LOL)
Creationist, Suth'n..... They wouldn't happen to be dog darned Republicans too by any chance? |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 13th, 2008 at 9:27pm
Shooting messengers again guys... typical... need I mention Hansen and Gore both financial beneficiaries of the scare campaign, have been proven wrong countless times and they have been the main drivers of your belief in an unproven theory.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 14th, 2008 at 5:39am
Shooting messengers? These guys deliberately misreported their data to be on the high side. The error was pointed out by other workers, and all this deliberate misreporting was to please Senator Inhofe, who had nothing but praise for his good ol' boys.
They are sad examples of humanity. They are not messengers. They are liars and 'prostitutes'. Let's not mince words here. They deserve to be 'shot' down in flames and exposed for what they are. Then we get this pathetic argument that the entire IPCC, a body comprising 2000+ scientists in countries as diverse as Iran, France, Russia and Australia have all conspired to manufacture a report (actually many thousands of individual papers) simply for the purpose of making Al Gore rich? Give us a break. ;D ;D So those poor old Oil Corporations and Coal companies who feel threatened that if the public gets behind this, they might actually lose money - of course they wouldn't dare get behind any disinformation campaigns, now would they? In terms of financial influence, we're comparing an elephant to a gerbil. It's no contest. Grendel - just who are you trying to kid? Yourself? You've gone way past that stage of self deception. Ladies and gentlemen - Roll up Roll up. In the Blue corner we have Al Gore - alias the Gutsy Gerbil, weighing in at 23.6 grams. In the Red corner we have the behemoth Exxon Amoco aka "The Stomper" weighing in at 7.1 Gigatonnes. AWBYE |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 14th, 2008 at 12:44pm
ROTFLMAO ;D ;D ;D
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2008 at 1:51pm
Whatever happened to 'didn't win, must toodles'?
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 14th, 2008 at 2:10pm freediver wrote on Dec 14th, 2008 at 1:51pm:
Perhaps he took my advice: NPATW: Never Piss Against The Wind AWBYE: Always Wash Behind Your Ears. AWTSBU: Always Wipe Toilet Seats Before Use; and NTSBG: Never Trust Strangers Bearing Gifts. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 14th, 2008 at 9:17pm
YAWN...
http://climatesanity.wordpress.com/ |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 14th, 2008 at 9:33pm
Wow, that must be like a dozen anti-AGW websites you've found now. You're on a roll Grendel.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 14th, 2008 at 10:02pm
Wow... I gather from past experience you actually think that is some form of refutation. DWMT...
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 15th, 2008 at 5:35am
Well it's pretty lazy to just cut and paste a url without actually making a point. If you don't actually make a point, then nobody can refute it.
Are you saying that there is something new here? A cursory look found the same old recycled drivel. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 15th, 2008 at 9:08am
toodles
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 16th, 2008 at 10:10am
Flaming again fd... tsk, tsk, tsk... hardly setting a good example, especially for a moderator.
Why don't you grow up? ::) ::) ::) |
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Title: The Grendel Digest December 2008 Post by muso on Dec 16th, 2008 at 10:57am
Grendel, We are waiting with bated breath for you to actually make a point. I guess your theory is that if you don't actually say anything, you can't be refuted.
Your floorshow is getting just a bit lame and you're boring people in droves. I think we've had enough of the Scoffing Shuffle and the Bellyaching Bellydance and the Guffaw'ing Galah dance. Now here's the Digest aka How to say nothing and still think you are making a case: You're still a (mod: deleted. Personal attacks and gratuitous profanities will not be tolerated).... No... unfortunately its what YOU boil down to. Cut and Paste - Etc, etc, etc.... Another cut and Paste without comment Yet another cut and paste without comment hypocrite all you do is ad hom and ridicule... it's what you people do. dwmt. Shooting messengers again guys... typical... need I mention Hansen and Gore both financial beneficiaries of the scare campaign, have been proven wrong countless times and they have been the main drivers of your belief in an unproven theory. ROTFLMAO YAWN... http://climatesanity.wordpress.com/ Wow... I gather from past experience you actually think that is some form of refutation. DWMT... Flaming again fd... tsk, tsk, tsk... hardly setting a good example, especially for a moderator. Why don't you grow up? |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2008 at 12:47pm
So you insult me, I say toodles, and I am the flamer? Something tells me this is the same logic you apply to global warming.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 16th, 2008 at 5:33pm
Wasn't an insult.... was a fact.
Oh and muso as per your style... only seeing one side of an argument... ::) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 16th, 2008 at 5:45pm
Whatever absurd justification you come up with, the fact remains that you post the insults, then accuse others of flaming you. Isn't there a word for someone who accuses others of doing something while doing it themselves? I can't think a a better example than what you have posted in this thread. It appears you use the same sort of logic when considering global warming.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by mozzaok on Dec 16th, 2008 at 9:30pm
I know how much you dislike the "H" word Grendel, but you really need to take a step back and look at what you have posted on this subject.
You are working backwards from the point of view, that Global Warming must be a lie, and scour the media for any snippet which you feel will vindicate your belief, no matter how contradictory, or mutually exclusive, each successive cut and paste may be. You then have a go at Muso for supposedly only seeing one side of the argument, when he has always shown an open willingness to explain his reasoning on every issue you raise, at which point, you absent yourself from the discussion, only to come back later with a newly trawled tidbit of misinformation dredged up from some denialist site, all the while not even attempting to actually debate your claims which muso took the trouble to refute, scientifically, and logically. So who appears to be irrationally wedded to an unsupported belief? It appears that you have a real blindspot in regards to this issue, and the only things you will even consider as valid, are the propaganda pieces from the denialists camp, which invariably get discredited, yet you fail to see the pattern. You don't even wait for the flames to die down from the last lot of hoopla shot down in flames, before you trot out the next bit of misinformation, with nary a backward glance at the carnage of false and failed arguments, piling up in the denialist camp. The trouble is, others do see a pattern, in the "science", you cite, as well as the abundant, but puerile, arguments presented by denialists, such as yourself, and their unwillingness to openly consider the facts as presented in an open, reasoned, and scientific manner. So, before you cut and paste your next lot, ask yourself if you are willing to stick around and debate it on it's merits, rather than just using the scatter gun of misinformation approach, for that only creates confusion. Alternately, you could just admit that confusion is all you really want. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 17th, 2008 at 6:29am
Mozza, don't know what you've been reading but I've never denied Global Warming or Climate change Mozz... kinda drops a bomb on all the rest since your premise is based on a lie.
As for Muso--- off-hand dismissal and shooting the messenger is hardly a debate. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 17th, 2008 at 7:40am Grendel wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 6:29am:
Grendel, your entire case is built up with Appeal to Authority. This scientist said this, and this plumber said that. Generally there is no substance to their claims either. It boils down to "AGW is nonsense" and I should know because I'm a petroleum geologist/ astronomer/marine biologist/cross dresser (add any other irrelevant occupation and delete where applicable) . Well you haven't given me the cross dresser yet, but the claims are all incredibly superficial. So when the crux of your 'argument' is appeal to authority, all that is required is to demonstrate that your so called authorities are not real authorities. Generally when it comes to those few low lifes who are qualified, it is quite easy to demostrate their lack of personal integrity and credibility. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 17th, 2008 at 9:16am
Grendel for someone who doesn't deny global warming you spend an aweful lot of time trying to dig up and post anything at all that denies global warming.
Then again, you do also try very hard to avoid taking an actual position. That might require you to defend it. If you aren't going to think about an issue and put forward an argument, what's the point of debating it? Or pretending to debate it, as the case may be? Are you saying that you know all those articles are BS but you post them anyway? |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by pjb05 on Dec 17th, 2008 at 5:14pm
What has Muso got against geologists (besides Bob Carter being one)? They would have a better handle on the climate changes over the history of the Earth than other scientists would they not?
PS: What is a 'climate scientist' ? Are they really all across and competent in the diverse range of fields that this subject encompasses? |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 19th, 2008 at 7:33pm
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2451051.htm
Rudd has failed to see through the vested interests that promote anthropogenic global warming (AGW), the theory that human emissions of carbon cause global warming. Though masquerading as "science based", the promoters of AGW have a medieval outlook and are in fact anti-science. Meanwhile carbon is innocent, and the political class is plunging ahead with making us poorer because they do not understand what science really is or what the real science is. The Renaissance began when the absolute authority of the church and ancient texts was overthrown. Science then evolved as our most reliable method for acquiring knowledge, free of superstition and political authority. Suppose you wanted to know whether big cannonballs or small cannonballs fell faster. In medieval times you argued theoretically with what could be gleaned from the Bible, the works of Aristotle, or maybe a Papal announcement. In the Renaissance you ignored the authorities and simply dropped cannon balls from a tower and observed what happened - this was science, where empirical evidence trumps theory. From 1975 to 2001 the global temperature trended up. How do you empirically determine the cause of this global warming? It turns out we can learn a lot simply by observing where the warming occurred: each possible cause of global warming heats the atmosphere differently, heating some parts before others. The pattern of warming is the cause's "signature". The signature of an increased greenhouse effect consists of two features: a hotspot about 10 km up in the atmosphere over the tropics, and a combination of broad stratospheric cooling and broad tropospheric warming. The signature of ozone depletion consists just of the second feature. These signatures are theoretically derived by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and are integral to our understanding of how the atmosphere works. [1] We have been observing temperatures in the atmosphere for decades using radiosondes - weather balloons with thermometers that radio back the temperature as the balloon ascends through the atmosphere. The radiosonde measurements for 1979-1999 show broad stratospheric cooling and broad tropospheric warming, but they show no tropical hotspot. Not even a small one. [2] Empirically, we therefore know that an increased greenhouse effect was not a significant cause of the recent global warming. (Either that or the signatures from the IPCC are wrong, so its climate models and predictions are rubbish anyway.) Human carbon emissions were occurring at the time but the greenhouse effect did not increase. Therefore human carbon emissions did not increase the greenhouse effect, and did not cause global warming. So AGW is wrong, and carbon is innocent. Suspect exonerated - wrong signature. Alarmist scientists (supporters of AGW) objected that the radiosonde thermometers were not accurate and maybe the hotspot was there but went undetected. But there were hundreds of radiosondes, so statistically this is unlikely. They have also suggested we ignore the radiosonde thermometers, and use the radiosonde wind measurements instead. When combined with a theory about wind shear they estimated the temperatures on their computers - and say that the results show that we cannot rule out the presence of a hotspot. But thermometers are designed to measure temperature, so it's a bit of a stretch to claim that wind gauges are accidentally better at it. Serious alarmist scientists do not claim that the hotspot was found, only that we might have missed it. The obvious conclusion is that the hotspot was too weak to be easily detected. We cannot collect any more data from the past warming, and there is no sign of the hotspot in the data that was collected - so the occasional claims that appear on the Internet that the hotspot has been found are simply wrong. [3] So can we tell from the observed warming pattern what did cause the global warming? Unfortunately we have little idea of the signatures of some of the suspects, such as cosmic rays or the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, so we cannot say except to note that ozone depletion was one of the causes. Is there any observational evidence in favor of AGW? As of 2003, none at all. The only supporting evidence for AGW was the old ice core data. The old ice core data, gathered from 1985, showed that in the past half million years, through several global warmings and coolings, the earth's temperature and atmospheric carbon levels rose and fell in lockstep. AGW was coming into vogue in the 1980s, so it was widely assumed that it was the carbon changes causing the temperature changes. pt1 |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 19th, 2008 at 7:34pm
By the late 1990s ice core techniques had improved. In the old ice cores the data points were a few thousand years apart, but in the new ice core data they were only a few hundred years apart. In the early 1990s, New Scientist magazine anticipated that the higher-resolution data would seal the case for AGW.
But the opposite occurred. By 2003 it had been established to everyone's satisfaction that temperature changes preceded corresponding carbon changes by an average of 800 years: so temperature changes caused carbon changes - a warmer ocean supports more carbon in the atmosphere, after delays due to mixing. [4] So the ice core data no longer supported AGW. The alarmists failed to effectively notify the public. After several prominent public claims by skeptics in 2008 that there is no evidence left for AGW, alarmist scientists offered only two points. First, laboratory tests prove that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. But that observation tells us nothing about how much the global temperature changes if extra carbon enters the real, complicated atmosphere. Every emitted carbon atom raises the global temperature, but the missing hotspot shows that the effect is negligible. Second, computer models. Computer models are just huge concatenations of calculations that, individually, could have been performed on a handheld calculator. They are theory, not evidence. Governments have spent over $50 billion on climate research since 1990, and we have not found any actual evidence for AGW. [5] So if there is no evidence to support AGW, and the missing hotspot shows that AGW is wrong, why does most of the world still believe in AGW? Part of the answer is that science changed direction after a large constituency of vested interests had invested in AGW. The old ice core data provided support from 1985, the IPCC was established by the UN in 1988 to look into human changes to climate, and the Kyoto Protocol was negotiated in 1997 to limit carbon emissions. By 1999 the western political class were doing something, the western media were rallying behind "saving the planet", and scientists were being paid by governments to research the effects of human-caused global warming. But then the evidence took science off in a different direction: the new ice core data in 2003, the missing hotspot in 2007, and the global temperature has stopped trending up since 2001 [6]. Governments, the media, and many scientists did not notice. The remainder of the answer for the current belief in AGW is darker and more political. An offbeat theory in the 1970s, AGW was adopted by a group of about 45 atmospheric modelers and physicists. That group dominated climate science journals, peer reviewed each others papers, and hindered competing ideas by underhand methods [7]. AGW gained political support from proponents of nuclear power, and vice-president Gore appointed AGW supporters to science positions in the USA. AGW grabbed control of climate funding in key western countries. Lack of diversity in science funding has been a major problem since government took over funding science in WWII. Science is like a courtroom - protagonists put forward their best cases, and out of the argument some truth emerges. But if only one side is funded and heard, then truth tends not to emerge. This happened in climate science, which is almost completely government funded and has been dominated by AGW for two decades. Skeptics are mainly scientists who are retired or who have moved on to other areas - their funding no longer depends on allegiance to AGW. The alarmists are full time, well funded, and hog the megaphone. AGW was always promoted as being supported by nearly all scientists (though polls and history do not support this). Counting numbers of supporters and creating a bandwagon effect by announcing you are in the majority is a political tactic. AGW always advanced principally by political means; as a scientific theory it was always weak, and now the evidence contradicts it. It's like a return to medieval times, where authority rules and evidence is ignored. Notice how the proponents of AGW don't want to talk about evidence of the causes? Anything but evidence of cause - attack people's motives, someone else "has the evidence", theoretical models, evidence that global warming is occurring, how important they are, what credentials they have, how worthy they are, the dog ate my evidence, "the science is settled", polar bears, anything. Talking about the evidence of the cause of global warming does not advance their cause. Politics says AGW is correct; science says it is wrong. Science demands evidence. Evidence trumps theory, no matter what the political authority of those promoting the theory, even if they dress up in lab coats and have job titles that say "scientist". The hotspot is missing and there is no evidence for AGW. The alarmists cannot ignore this and continue to play political games forever. They are entitled to argue the case for AGW, but they should also acknowledge the evidence and inform the political class that AGW appears to be wrong - even if it means risking their status and their jobs (and yes, we scientists are also people who have kids and mortgages). pt2 |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 19th, 2008 at 7:36pm
There are two central lies in the political promotion of AGW.
The first appears in Gore's movie. He gave the old ice core data as the sole reason for believing AGW (the rest of the movie presents evidence that global warming occurred, a separate issue). He said that increases in carbon caused increases in temperature in the past warming events. But Gore made his movie in 2005, two years after the new ice core data had established the opposite! Gore's weasel words when he introduced that segment show he knew what he was about to say was false. Who would have believed his pitch if he added "and each temperature rise occurred 800 years before the corresponding rise in carbon that caused it"? [8] The second lie is the hockey stick graph, which presented the last thousand years of global temperature as the flat handle of a hockey stick and the next hundred as the sharply rising blade [9]. The hockey stick graph was heavily promoted by the IPCC in 2001, and the IPCC even adopted it as its logo before it got discredited. It is significant because most non-scientist AGW supporters seem to believe some version of the hockey stick. When the IPCC "scientists" who produced the graph were asked to show their data for past temperatures, they refused (true scientists share data). But one of those scientists was a British academic and subject to the British Freedom of Information Act, and after two years of stonewalling all was revealed. It showed they had grossly skewed the data (even omitting inconvenient data to a folder labeled "Censored"), and that the computer program used to process the data had the hockey stick shape built into it - you could feed it stock market data instead of tree ring data and you would still get a hockey stick! In reality it was warmer in the Middle Ages than today, and there was a mini ice age around 1700 from which we have since been warming ever since. [10] Finally, the sharply rising blade of the hockey stick is contradicted so far by actual temperatures, which from 2001 to 2008 have been flat - something all of the climate models got wrong. Among non-scientists, AGW appeals strongly to two groups. Those who support big government love the idea of carbon regulations - if you control carbon emissions then you control most human activity. And those who like to feel morally superior to the bulk of their fellow citizens by virtue of a belief (the "warm inner glow" and moral vanity of the politically correct) are firmly attached to AGW. These groups are politically adept, are planning to spend your money and tell you how to eat, travel and how to live, and they are strenuously avoiding the evidence. The media has avoided presenting information that undermines AGW, until recently. Instead they promoted alarmism, and discredited skeptics as being in the pay of big oil - while giving a free pass to Gore, who made a movie based on an obvious lie then made millions selling carbon offsets. The media is very keen to present evidence that global warming is occurring, but have you noticed how quiet it is on evidence that carbon emissions caused it? In 2007 almost no one in the west knew that the hotspot was missing, that there was no evidence for AGW, that temperatures had been flat for six years, that the hockey stick was a fraud, or that Al Gore lied when he gave the old ice core data as a reason for blaming carbon. But due to the Internet the public is gradually finding out anyway, which risks further discrediting many media outlets. Why buy a newspaper if it's not going to tell you the actual news? And as the public become generally aware, what politician is going to risk being so ideologically stupid as to unnecessarily wreck the economy by slashing carbon emissions? Hmmm, Kevin Rudd? pt.... |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 19th, 2008 at 8:56pm
It's our old mate Dave the wannabe climate scientist spouting more of the same tired nonsense. I kind of relax when it's just Dave, because he has nothing new to say, but just recycled arguments and old news that have been refuted years ago. You'd think he would have plenty of time to keep up with the latest papers, but of course he doesn't have to, because Dave's audience is the public, and the more ignorant they are, the better.
First of all, the missing tropical hotspots? - a storm in a teacup. The fact is that hotspots don't remain as hotspots for very long in the tropics, and thermal energy is rapidly converted to kinetic energy through the action of the water cycle. In fact that was the conclusion of the researchers who investigated this back in 2007. Problem solved. (Unfortunately not for Dave - It just gave him an excuse to write some more fiction) Al Gore ? ::) - Déjà Vu - give me a break ::) Hasn't that strawman already been reduced to ashes many times before? The tired old hockey stick argument again? Not only was Mann's data totally shown to be totally valid, M&M were proven to have interfered with the real data (somebody else's data) far beyond the call of duty for the professional climate liar. Cosmic Rays? Get the tinfoil hats out again folks - Remember those British researchers that showed that it wasn't Cosmic Rays? Maybe we should tell Dave. Dave was probably working. After all, some people outside the field of Environmental science will still hire him. He used to be quite a competent mathematician. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He was either working or he was drunk and missed that paper too. If I was a professional liar, I'd have to drink a lot too. I just wouldn't be able to face myself in the mirror every day otherwise. It's so sad to see somebody's life going to waste like this. He must know that he's writing drivel. If anybody who is reading this needs a top notch computer geek, see Dave. Dave is a ginuwine Rocket Scientist and look just give him a JOB!!!! You can see his resumé here: http://www.sciencespeak.com/DavidEvans.doc Will somebody please give this man honest employment? |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:00pm
I didn't write it.
or did you mean Dave and why apart from it being your opinion of every dissenting opinion would he write drivel? I do see however, lots of one-sided ideology and little else in what you write and in your continuous ad hom etc, etc, etc... |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:07pm Grendel wrote on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:00pm:
His name is Dr David Evans R/S. None of that Dave stuff from you Grendel. We need to get this man a job urgently! Why does he write drivel? - because he can't get a proper job. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:26pm
Grendel, to save me the trouble, can you point out the bit where he says 'frost this morning, therefor no global warming'?
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:32pm freediver wrote on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:26pm:
That would be this bit: Finally, the sharply rising blade of the hockey stick is contradicted so far by actual temperatures, which from 2001 to 2008 have been flat - something all of the climate models got wrong. The most hilarious part to me are these words of wisdom: "First, laboratory tests prove that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. But that observation tells us nothing about how much the global temperature changes if extra carbon enters the real, complicated atmosphere." Dr Dave Evans, Rocket Scientist December 2008 Deep. We are not Worthy. Global_Temps_08_001.gif (25 KB | 65
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by freediver on Dec 19th, 2008 at 9:59pm
Thanks Muso. These guys are surprisingly predictable.
Quote:
Well at least he was honest enough to not try to say there is a downward trend. Now if he could just be a bit more honest, he could admit that it is merely 'close to flat', aka increasing. Or he could go one step further and acknowledge that there is more than 8 years of relevant data and that it is misleading to pretend the rest doesn't exist. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by muso on Dec 19th, 2008 at 10:37pm pjb05 wrote on Dec 17th, 2008 at 5:14pm:
PJB, I'll quickly answer this one, because my next post will probably be in 2009. I have nothing against geologists (I actually minored in Geology), and the geologists who lie about AGW professionally are a very tiny minority of the whole. For example, this is the position taken by the Geological Society of America: The Geological Society of America (GSA) supports the scientific conclusions that Earth’s climate is changing; the climate changes are due in part to human activities; and the probable consequences of the climate changes will be significant and blind to geopolitical boundaries. Furthermore, the potential implications of global climate change and the time scale over which such changes will likely occur require active, effective, long-term planning. ... GSA strongly encourages that the following efforts be undertaken internationally: (1) adequately research climate change at all time scales, (2) develop thoughtful, science-based policy appropriate for the multifaceted issues of global climate change, (3) organize global planning to recognize, prepare for, and adapt to the causes and consequences of global climate change, and (4) organize and develop comprehensive, long-term strategies for sustainable energy, particularly focused on minimizing impacts on global climate."- Position Statement, Global Climate Change, 2006 And the Geological Society of London: "Global climate change is increasingly recognised as the key threat to the continued development – and even survival - of humanity. ... We find that the evidence for human-induced climate change is now persuasive, and the need for direct action compelling." - US Geological Survey (USGS) The most authoritative report on this issue is Climate Change 1995: IPCC Second Assessment Report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which is part of the United Nations Environmental Programme. The IPCC has a large amount of information on their web site dealing with this topic Geoscience Australia (2001) Dr John Bradshaw from AGSO - Geoscience Australia will present the geological solution to the global issue of carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions at the Geoscience Australia open day this Sunday at 1pm. Dr Bradshaw says there has been a 15 per cent increase in the volume of CO2 in the atmosphere since 1960, which is widely attributed to emissions from man made sources. The increase is believed to produce a greenhouse effect, which is contributing to global warming. "On a per capita basis Australia is among the highest emitters of CO2 in the world," said Dr Bradshaw. http://www.ga.gov.au/media/releases/20011003_7.jsp |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by mozzaok on Dec 19th, 2008 at 10:49pm
It is sad to see the misinformation about the hockey stick graph still being touted by denialists, even after exhaustive analysis, which did contain some minor criticisms, , mainly of the methodology, which the denialists tried to beat up into something it was not, and some even went so far as to 'tamper' with his data, in an effort to discredit his findings.
But the reviewers of his work maintained that for such ground breaking work, the actual results were surprisingly good, and his initial findings were affirmed. Of course if you only go to denialists sites you will not know any of this, and still believe their lies, that the hockey stick graph was discredited, when actually it turned out that the ones who fudged the data in their attempts to discredit it, were the ones whose scientific reputations have been discredited. If you take a step back, and check sites other than the huge proliferation of denialist sites, you will notice the clear agenda of promoting lies and misinformation by the denialist camp, which should tell you something about what they are trying to peddle, it is nothing but snake oil. |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 20th, 2008 at 12:40pm
The HS graph has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be erroneous.
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by mozzaok on Dec 20th, 2008 at 5:13pm
Unfortunately Grendel, you only see what the denialists want you to see, and because the hockey stick graph was used by Gore, for dramatic effect in his film, it became the holy grail of denialists, to discredit it, as if that one graph, from one study, was the whole basis of the anthropogenic warming argument.
It never was, and even though minor, and understandable imperfections have been accepted, they do not, like the denialists claim, negate the efficacy of the Mann study. Because of the attention, real scientists were charged with examining, in minute detail, every aspect of Manns work, and came out with some minor criticisms, but affirming his study as being sound, and validated by subsequent independent studies and data. Anyway, suffice to say, real scientists have no issue with it, but I guess that is not what you are interested in. Here is a little link to your darlings of the denialist set, along with their exxon funding, in a nice little graphic. http://www.exxonsecrets.org/index.php?mapid=612 |
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Title: Re: Rethinking Observed Warming Post by Grendel on Dec 20th, 2008 at 7:43pm
yawn... talk about an eco-religiost fanatic...
DWMT... you have your belief I have my reason. And until there's actual proof of something else I'll stick with it. |
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