I thought we should balance the topic about the violence of Islam by adding a similar topic about the evils of Christianity through the ages.

As far as the Bible itself is concerned, it has 893 cruel or violent passages compared to 521 in the Qu'ran. Considering that the Bible is a bigger book, this translates to 2.86% of total compared to 8.35% for the Qu'ran.

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/06/which-is-more-violent-bible-or-quran.html

Then if we look at what people have done specifically in the name of Jesus Christ over the years, we find many millions of fatalities and mutilations. The acts of the Portuguese Inquisition in Goa where they dismembered and tortured children in front of their parents, whose eyelids had been cut out, was one particularly cruel episode, but if we look at Scandinavia at the time of the Viking conversions throughout Danmark and Norway, the choice between conversion and beheading was probably even worse.  

Violence, it has been a main tool in the Christian arsenal since the middle ages. From the Crusades to the Inquisitions of Spain, violence is ever prevalent. Even in this day and age, intolerance and violence continue to be preached. But is this violence an instrument of God or man? Is violence an inherent part of this religion? Some would say that it is indeed built in to the very fabric of its being. The Old Testament is full of the smiting of infidels and those who defy God. The Book of Revelations tells of the violent and fiery demise of this entire planet. There are instances of mass genocide, the killing of innocent children, holy wars, you name a violent act and God has called for it. The story of Noah recounts how God killed off everyone in the world save one family. This violence, some speculate, is a result of man's own doing. Perhaps God's word was misinterpreted or those in power sought to legitimize their own violent acts through the involvement of religion. Regardless of whether it was God or man that made religion violent, it is now deeply a part of it. The very involvement of religion into a dispute can cause the dispute to escalate exponentionally.

What do you think?

Quote:

Could Christianity be Evil?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?



muso,

I am personally comforted to know,
.....that God knows what is in our hearts - each one of us.
.....[and with 6+ billion souls on the planet, I don't know how this is true, but i know that it is true]


We hide nothing from him.

And we who call ourselves Christians, also need to be mindful of that fact.


1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts....


Isaiah 29:15
Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?


Jeremiah 17:10
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.





Jeremiah 9:24
But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

.....For in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
.....LOVINGKINDNESS, JUDGMENT, and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Is God merciful?

Yes.

But, judgement is not discarded.
....it is deferred.

Galatians 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.




++++++++



Does my God, allow evil in the world?

No, my God is truly wondrous and just.



Then what about the question of evil???

Throughout the Bible there is an admonition, that [all] men do evil things,
.....because they have no fear of God.

If you fear God, as you should, repent.



"We walk this earth today, and many men scoff,
...that, 'God' does not reveal himself.
And yet in our journey here, so few of us consider the question,
....*Who* is it, that *is* being revealed???"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225068179/4#4



+++++++


Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17  And the way of peace have they not known:
18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.


1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, THAT GOD IS LIGHT, and in him is no darkness at all.
6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


Of [spiritual] children and parents.....

Galatians 4:1-7
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&x=0&y=0&b=Gal&c=4&v=1

Well as dogma lets see you stick to the right testament then eh Muso...  because I'm sick of correcting athiests and others who profess toi know things yet continually quote the wrong books.  Oh and use events that were motivated by things other than the religion and its beliefs.

Get it right and I'll be happy.

Grendel wrote on Nov 16^th, 2008 at 4:38pm:

Well as dogma lets see you stick to the right testament then eh Muso...  because I'm sick of correcting athiests and others who profess toi know things yet continually quote the wrong books.  Oh and use events that were motivated by things other than the religion and its beliefs. Get it right and I'll be happy.

Grendel, That's not a barrow I choose to push, although I'm sure there are atheists out there who would love to criticise religion in general as being evil. What I'm trying to do is to get people to realise that they are "throwing stones in a glasshouse".  People of one religion have a kind of innate inability to see the flaws in their own religion, but are all too ready to attack another religion as being evil.

The last sentence of your post says it all. The fact is that those people who lambast Islam and call it evil are guilty of exactly the things that you mention. Many of the passages criticised in the Qu'ran and Hadiths are  events motivated by the religion and its beliefs. I could quote any number of examples from the Bible that just as superficially demonstrate Christianity to be a cruel and evil religion.

The purpose of my post was to make people aware that Christianity is not entirely above criticism, and to give you an understanding of how frustrated Muslims must feel when their religious beliefs are pilloried. Christianity is not always the progressive religion that some people make it out to be either. The status of women in the Catholic and Anglican branches of Christianity demonstrate some similar characteristics to Islam, which is after all a related religion.

I've seen the way religion and spirituality can benefit people worldwide, and Islam has very similar benefits to those of Christianity or Judeism, or even Tribal beliefs. Religion is all about setting a framework and a context for life. Religion puts life in perspective. Some of us can do that without religion, but the majority can not.

Muso - good on you.
These are the sort of topics I like to see.

Do all xians "get it right" ? Cripes no
What is the intent of the Bible ?


"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Against such things there is no law."

Galatians 5;22,23

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:05am:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5;22,23

Excellent passage. Here is another that is appropriate to the intent of the topic (as opposed to the title)

3.65 Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

3.66 Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!

lol

Not happy muso...  you'll have to try harder.

I am aware of the history of the "Christians" thanks.

I am aware of Christian teachings also...

I don't fear or hate Islam or Muslims and nothing i have said or done promotes that. I may dissent question and argue just as I do with Catholics or other Christians.

I am aware of what you are trying to do, but I don't fit into your stereotype of a Christian...  in fact I fit none of the stereotypes you lump me into and that too is tedious.  Do you always see the world in stereotypes?  hmmm.

Grendel wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 10:01am:

lol Not happy muso...  you'll have to try harder. I am aware of the history of the "Christians" thanks. I am aware of Christian teachings also... I don't fear or hate Islam or Muslims and nothing i have said or done promotes that. I may dissent question and argue just as I do with Catholics or other Christians. I am aware of what you are trying to do, but I don't fit into your stereotype of a Christian...  in fact I fit none of the stereotypes you lump me into and that too is tedious.  Do you always see the world in stereotypes?  hmmm.

Well surprise surprise, I don't fall into your stereotype of an atheist either. You know that song that goes "You're so vain - I bet you think this song is about you" (substitute 'post" and you get the idea)

No, I don't see the world in stereotypes, but there are certain aspects of both Christianity and Islam that annoy me - or at least the attitudes that their followers adopt.  

Humility is something I generally admire and respect. Arrogance - for example Suth'n Baptist arrogance, One True Religion positions and Christopher Hitchins type feral atheists all get up my nose big time.

If there is any point I'm trying to get across it's one of respect and tolerance for the views of other people. They see life out of their little windows on the universe. You (plural) see life out of your little windows. If we start to see things as others do, just maybe, we'll get a better grasp of how things are.  One's concept of truth is always based entirely on perception and preconception. That's a limitation that we all have. It comes with the territory of being human.

You have two ears and one mouth. Use them in that proportion, and we'll get along just fine.

never said you were an athiest...   ::)

so no more strawmen eh...  i'll put a match to them.

Grendel wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 10:30am:

never said you were an athiest...   ::) so no more strawmen eh...  i'll put a match to them.

Oh, you can call me an atheist as long as you get the definition right. I'm just not typical of 'forum atheists', but very typical of most atheists out there.  

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 9:05am:

Muso - good on you. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5;22,23

sprint,

That is indeed a very good Bible verse.



I know i come over as very harsh in many of my posts here.

And i apologise for that.

But i don't hate muslims.

Muslims as men and women, are my brothers and sisters.


I don't hate muslims.

I hate [what i see as] the lies and deception, and the violence of ISLAM, and where it is leading those that embrace it.

Yadda wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 10:46am:

I know i come over as very harsh in many of my posts here. And i apologise for that. But i don't hate muslims. Muslims as men and women, are my brothers and sisters. I don't hate muslims. I hate [what i see as] the lies and deception, and the violence of ISLAM, and where it is leading those that embrace it.

I hate lies, deception and dogma regardless of the source.
I also hate violence that is perpetrated in the name of dogma and arrogant belief that no other view can have any merit. In most cases, the violence is not intentionally supported by basic religious doctrine. It is misinterpretation that results in violence. That's the case whether we're talking about Northern Ireland, the Balkans or Al Qaeda.

'Islamic' and 'Muslim' are basically synonyms. If you spoke to an Imam and really tried to understand his view, I think you'd find that you share the same ideals of peace.

Both Christianity and Islam are religions of peace. It's  misinterpretation, prejudice and ignorance that turns them violent. You've got a collective name for that. You call it Satan.

The antidote is education.  

ROTFLMAO

You finished yet muso?

Your personal belief or disbelief is of no concern to me whatsoever.  :)

muso wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 11:47am:

'Islamic' and 'Muslim' are basically synonyms. If you spoke to an Imam and really tried to understand his view, I think you'd find that you share the same ideals of peace. Both Christianity and Islam are religions of peace. It's  misinterpretation, prejudice and ignorance that turns them violent. You've got a collective name for that. You call it Satan. The antidote is education.

muso,


Quote:

If you spoke to an Imam and really tried to understand his view, I think you'd find that you share the same ideals of peace.

Quote:

Both Christianity and Islam are religions of peace.

muso,

You are mistaken,
.....BADLY, if you believe that ISLAM is a religion of peace.

On what basis do you make such a claim?

Because you were told that, by an Imam?





The only peace a lover of Sharia [an Imam ] would seek is YOUR submission, to HIS will.

That is how muslims define the word 'peace'.

YOUR subjection to Allah [i.e. muslim clerics].


Islam 101: A Lexicon for Dummies
".....Peace: Submission to Allah is the only peace recognized in Islam. Anything else is worthy of justified retaliation. --''When Muslims say peace, they mean non-Muslims should be subdued and humiliated to the extent that they have no strength to rebel. Peace, according to Islam, is therefore achieved through subjugation'' (Ali Sina)."
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34806&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=32d06d12628ae4daa0c20ae3df71c05d





also,

Girls, gaining a muslim 'education'....
"....."......[resorting] to force to disseminate Islam is not war (harb), a word that is used only to describe the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are not hurub (the plural of harb) but rather futuhat, acts of "opening" the world to Islam and expressing Islamic jihad. Relations between dar al-Islam, the home of peace, and dar al-harb, the world of unbelievers, nevertheless take place in a state of war, according to the Qur'an and to the authoritative commentaries of Islamic jurists. Unbelievers who stand in the way, CREATING OBSTACLES FOR THE DA'WA, ARE BLAMED FOR THIS STATE OF WAR, for the da'wa can be pursued peacefully if others submit to it. IN OTHER WORDS, THOSE WHO RESIST ISLAM CAUSE WARS and are responsible for them.
.....Aggression is something only infidels do.
.....it is not seen as aggression or war when Muslims attack non-Muslims. On the contrary, it is seen as aggression when non-Muslims resist the Islamization of their lands and thus "place obstacles in the way" of the spread of Islam. They are defying the will of Allah.......subjugation to Islam alone can bring peace.....
......[To the ISLAMIST mind, 'aggression' is...] When non-Muslims do anything to preserve their culture and resist the Islamization of their country."....."
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226526640/0#0
http://wolfgangbruno.blogspot.com/2006/07/islamic-dictionary-for-infidels.html






muso,

Do you know how muslims greet one another???

They offer each other Allah's peace, as a greeting.

If you think that ISLAM is a religion of peace,
.....get your muslim friend to offer you Allah's peace, as a greeting.

[hint..... this is VERBOTTEN, to offer / extend Allah's peace, to non-muslims.]


Muso,

GET EDUCATED!

mod: personal attack
.....and i mean that in the nicest way.

:P


+++++++


muso,

I do believe that education is an answer.

I am a great believer in education, and scrutiny, and seeking TRUTH.

But if an 'education' is based on deception and lies, it is worthless.

If you blithely accept lies as TRUTH, you are only fooling yourself.

Yadda wrote on Nov 17^th, 2008 at 12:36pm:

Islam 101: A Lexicon for Dummies ".....Peace: Submission to Allah is the only peace recognized in Islam. Anything else is worthy of justified retaliation. --''When Muslims say peace, they mean non-Muslims should be subdued and humiliated to the extent that they have no strength to rebel. Peace, according to Islam, is therefore achieved through subjugation'' (Ali Sina)."

Mate, I've spent a lot of time with Muslims in Sub-Saharan Africa and the Gulf (Qatar and UAE). I've exchanged the phrase "As-salaam aleikhum" with the reply "Wa-aleikum as-salaam" many times with Muslims, and they are a darned sight more polite than you.

I've even prayed in a Mosque once as a request from a Muslim friend. I've also prayed in a church a few times.  

It's just a religion. If you are ever admitted to hospital, it's something they make note of on an admission form. Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever. They are all equal under the law. Get over it. You are going way over the top.

You really need to get out a little, perhaps find a nice girl, and participate in some interfaith dialogue.

muso wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 8:48am:

Mate, I've spent a lot of time with Muslims in Sub-Saharan Africa and the Gulf (Qatar and UAE). I've exchanged the phrase "As-salaam aleikhum" with the reply "Wa-aleikum as-salaam" many times with Muslims, and they are a darned sight more polite than you. I've even prayed in a Mosque once as a request from a Muslim friend. I've also prayed in a church a few times.   It's just a religion. If you are ever admitted to hospital, it's something they make note of on an admission form. Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever. They are all equal under the law. Get over it. You are going way over the top. You really need to get out a little, perhaps find a nice girl, and participate in some interfaith dialogue.

muso,

I am happy that you have found some muslim apostates who were nice to you.

I apologise for my rudeness to you.


Yadda


[p.s.

ISLAM itself, defines what a muslim is, and who are muslims.

This 'vetting' is contained within ISLAM's doctrines, and within ISLAMIC texts.

e.g. A 'muslim' who extends his friendship to a non-muslim, becomes a non-muslim himself.

This is not my opinion.

This is what ISLAM declares itself.]

muso- I have had exactly the same experience here. I am often greeted with a "salam" or "salam alaikum", once the person I am talking to knows I'm comfortable with it.

only some have not said it until I've indicated I'm comfortable with the greeting.

and btw Yadda- they aren't apostates, they're practising muslims. I have a lecture from a sheikh about returning the greeting of salams to non-muslims and how all muslims should do it. I'll post it up here.

Yadda wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 9:50am:

[p.s. ISLAM itself, defines what a muslim is, and who are muslims. This 'vetting' is contained within ISLAM's doctrines, and within ISLAMIC texts. e.g. A 'muslim' who extends his friendship to a non-muslim, becomes a non-muslim himself. This is not my opinion. This is what ISLAM declares itself.]

I'm afraid that is your opinion. Islam does not declare this. but please, take some out of context quote to further your lies

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

muso- I have had exactly the same experience here. I am often greeted with a "salam" or "salam alaikum", once the person I am talking to knows I'm comfortable with it. only some have not said it until I've indicated I'm comfortable with the greeting. and btw Yadda- they aren't apostates, they're practising muslims. I have a lecture from a sheikh about returning the greeting of salams to non-muslims and how all muslims should do it. I'll post it up here.

Thanks Gaybriel. See? I told Yadda he should find a nice girl (no offense)

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:31am:

btw Yadda- they aren't apostates, they're practising muslims.

Gaybriel,

To be a practising muslim, you must be, a practising muslim.


This is not my stricture.
....it is ISLAM's own requirement!
....[based on requirements, set out within ISLAMIC texts.]


If you are not a practising muslim, YOU ARE DEEMED TO BE A KUFFAR,
.....in the eyes of REAL practising muslims!


".....In Islamic law, takfir or takfeer (تكفير) is the practice of declaring unbeliever or kafir (pl. kuffār), an individual or a group previously considered Muslim.......The sentence for apostasy (irtidad), under Sharia law as traditionally interpreted, is execution, alternate amputation, expulsion."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfir

Google,
Takfir apostasy
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=wiki+Takfir+apostasy&btnG=Google+Search&meta=


It all gets very circular doesn't it??



And by the way Gaybriel,
.....i am a believer.
.....unlike many ppl who call themselves muslims!

:)

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 10:32am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 19th, 2008 at 9:50am: [p.s. ISLAM itself, defines what a muslim is, and who are muslims. This 'vetting' is contained within ISLAM's doctrines, and within ISLAMIC texts. e.g. A 'muslim' who extends his friendship to a non-muslim, becomes a non-muslim himself. This is not my opinion. This is what ISLAM declares itself.] I'm afraid that is your opinion. Islam does not declare this. but please, take some out of context quote to further your lies

Gaybriel,

Why can't i convince you of the obvious?


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." [i.e. is an unbeliever]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051

Both lectures here are good but the one by Professor Jamal Badawi that starts at 46:38 is the one I'm referring to.

I couldn't find the part about salams in there specifically- maybe it was another lecturer. I will try to find my notes.

Anyway this lecture talks about muslims living in a non-muslim society.

The first speaker is also interesting - there is some arabic in his speech but he always translates it into english so it's easily understood.


ugggh...the file size is too big. anyone know how to make it smaller? it's a wmp file. or maybe I can put it on a website or something

[O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa’ 4:144)

[O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma’dah 5: 51)

Check out this answer and remember tha we are dealing with pedants of the highest order here.


Quote:

In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, President of the Fiqh Council ofNorth America, states: The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.

I note that the Koran says KIND and JUST not "friendly"...  but here he states quite clearly that Muslims be "friendly" as opposed to being real friends whereas Non-Muslims can consider themselves real friends to Muslims.  I can be friendly to someone and not be a FRIEND of someone.  Ah the pedants...  how disingenuous of them.

In relation to other religions a scholar offers...  "This verse doesn't mean the same as you seemed to understand, because the religion is Islam, and whoever come to Allah on the day of Judgment with any religion rather than Islam won't be accepted, because Islam is the only religion which worship Allah (Subhanao wa Taala) without accompanying any other beside Him, because no one ever should be accompanied with Allah in worship."

From "Muslim Teens" in case you didn't believe me...  confirmation..


Quote:

And the last fatwa depends on how you describe the word "friend" as the word friend may vary from one person to another, but what a Muslim shouldn't do concerning the non-Muslims for example: [*Accepting their kufr and doubting that it is kufr at all, or refraining from labelling them as kaafirs, or praising their religion. *Helping and supporting them against the Muslims. *Inclining towards them, relying upon them and taking them as a support. *Trusting them and taking them as advisors and consultants instead of the believers. *Compromising with them and being nice to them at the expense of one’s religion. *Becoming members of their societies, joining their parties, increasing their numbers, taking their nationalities (except in cases of necessity), serving in their armies or helping to develop their weapons. *Imitating the kaafirs in dress, appearance, speech, etc., because this indicates love of the person or people imitated. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever imitates a people is one of them.”] This was a part from: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2179 So, thats it, you can be friendly to others, and being friendly doesn't mean that you love them and be intimate to them, because Allah -who is aware with all His creation- told us in the Quran: [Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.] [2:160] So being friendly and tolerant doesn't mean to love them and to be intimate with them. Because those people consider the prophet Muhamed (Salla Allaho Allihi wa Sallam) as a false prophet, can you accept this, the prophet who lived all his life for our benefit and to make us Muslims in order to please Allah, and who was a mercy to the worlds, can you accept to be intimate to those who call him and hate him!! Allah said: [You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those — He has decreed within their hearts faith.][58:22] And beside all of that you should be aware that you should of course refuse what they believe in, they say that Allah has a son, and Jesus is a God, or Son of God, and so on. This is all Kuffr, and those who say so will be in the Hell Fire.. so the real benefit you can do to those people if you liked for them the goodness is to invite them to Islam, and to guide them to any Islamic council or center in your country so they can know about Islam, asking Allah to guide all of His slaves, Amen! Note: Of course, we are talking about having friends from girls if you are a girl, or from boys if you are a boy, because mixing between different sexes is not allowed.

Oh gaybriel...  come out come out wherever you are  ;D

Interesting Muso. COULD it be evil? Hmm I think the question is wide enough that good arguments in the affirmative could be established, however I also think that most of those arguments will overlap with many religions. But this could all up be an interesting exercise.

You avoided the obvious and far easier question of whether Christians have been evil. And you could ask that question on as small or large a scale as you want. It also would not have required a single reference to Text but history.

Anyway I'm going to have a quick dig into Nietzsche to remind me of what he thought. I don't agree with everything he says but a lot mirrors things I have considered and thought they weren't completely baseless. Then we have Alister Crowley and Anton LaVey. But I take these two with very little seriousness, but they had a view point.

Yadda wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 11:12am:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 19th, 2008 at 10:32am: Yadda wrote on Nov 19th, 2008 at 9:50am: [p.s. ISLAM itself, defines what a muslim is, and who are muslims. This 'vetting' is contained within ISLAM's doctrines, and within ISLAMIC texts. e.g. A 'muslim' who extends his friendship to a non-muslim, becomes a non-muslim himself. This is not my opinion. This is what ISLAM declares itself.] I'm afraid that is your opinion. Islam does not declare this. but please, take some out of context quote to further your lies Gaybriel, Why can't i convince you of the obvious? "....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends.... ......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." [i.e. is an unbeliever] http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051

When people asked Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), what he thinks about non-Muslims. He said, “A Muslim is my
brother in religion and a non-Muslim is my brother in humanity”.

The Qur’an 3:64: “Say: ‘O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you...”

The Qur’an 49:13: “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you
in the sight of God is the most righteous of you...”

"Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just.  (The Quran, 60:8)"

"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).  (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"

"And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.   (The Noble Quran, 3:199)"

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.  They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.  (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

Does Islam really order Muslims to not take Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims as friends?

Let us look at the Noble Verses that address this issue:

"O ye who believe!  Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other.  And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them.   Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.  (The Noble Quran, 5:51)"

"O ye who believe!  Take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport - whether among those who received the Scripture (i.e., the Bible) before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have Faith (indeed).  (The Noble Quran, 5:57)"

"Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God.  (The Noble Quran, 4:139)"

"O ye who believe! Turn not (for friendship) To people on whom Is the Wrath of Allah.  Of the Hereafter they are Already in despair, just as The Unbelievers are In despair about those (Buried) in graves.  (The Noble Quran, 60:13)"

In the above Noble Verses, the Arabic word for "friends" is "Awliyaa", which has four literal meanings:  (1) Allies; (2) Friends; and (3) Guardians.  In Noble Verse 60:13, the Arabic word used was "tatawallu", which is derived from the root word "Awliyaa".

"Waliy" which is the singular of "Awliyaa" means "Guardian" as your parents were your guardians when you were a kid.  So as you can see, the Arabic word "Awliyaa" has different literal meanings.

Important Note:  In Noble Verse 60:13 above, Allah Almighty said "la tatawallu qawman", which literally means "take not as allies a tribe (or a community)", which further proves my point that "Awliyaa" in the Noble Verses above is meant for "alliance" and not personal "friendship".  

*** There is nothing wrong with developing a personal friendship with a non-Muslim to help him/her understand and appreciate Islam and to ultimately embrace it if they chose to.  As clearly shown in the introduction above, Allah Almighty commanded all Muslims to treat with kindness and justice all of the good non-Muslims.

The English translation of the Noble Verses above is not accurate, because the use of the word "friends" is really out of context.  The word "Allies" is the correct one, because in all of the Noble Verses above Allah Almighty was talking to the Muslims as a group taking A GROUP OF PEOPLE OR COMMUNITY as "Awliyaa", which fits perfectly with "alliance" than with just personal "friendship" on an individual level.

Another example of inaccurate English translation is the following Noble Verse:

"As to those who turn (For friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship of) Believers - it is the Fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.  (The Noble Quran, 5:56)"

The Arabic word for "Fellowship" of Allah is "hizb", which literally mean "Alliance", as in "Hizbullah" in Lebanon, which means "The Alliance of Allah".  Hizbullah are the guerrillas and the warriors that fought the Israelis long battles in southern Lebanon and finally were able to drive them out.  Also, the "Northern Alliance" in Afghanistan against the Taliban are called "Hizb Al-shamal".

Hizb is mistranslated as "Fellowship" instead of "Alliance".  Noble Verse 5:56 clearly states that Muslims must form their alliances only with Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad and the Believers.   Any alliance other than Allah Almighty is a losing one.  That is exactly what the Alliance with the Jews, Christians and Pagans against fellow Muslims will result in:  Eventual loss at this life, and Severe Punishment at the Day of Judgement.

So the Noble Verses above don't suggest that Muslims can not have personal friends with non-Muslims.  It suggests that Muslim countries are prohibited from forming alliance with the non-Muslims against other Muslims.

Noble 5:57, however, clearly states that Muslims should avoid having personal friendship with anyone (Muslim or non-Muslim) who disrespects Islam and take it for a "mockery".  So the translation of "friends" for "Awliyaa" seem to be a correct and accurate one.

The use of the word "friends" for Noble Verses 5:51 and 4:139 as a translation is ambiguous.  It is not clear from the Noble Verses that Allah Almighty meant for "Awliyaa" to be only personal "friends".  Certainly Noble Verse 5:56 above clearly shows that Allah Almighty is concerned about the Alliance that Muslims commit themselves to, and not personal friendships.

Why did Allah Almighty prohibit making alliance with the Jews and Christians?

When Islam was still fresh and partial, and Muslims were just beginning to understand Islam; Allah Almighty's True Divine Religion, a group of hypocrites from the Jews and Christians tried to deceive the Muslims by pretending to accept Islam and then deserting it later, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say:  Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)."  

Since then, the Muslims became very wary from the Jews and Christians, because they proved themselves to be hypocrites.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/friends.htm

http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/friendship.pdf

very indepth article

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re12-12-97.html

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 11:13am:

When people asked Ali, the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), what he thinks about non-Muslims. He said, “A Muslim is my brother in religion and a non-Muslim is my brother in humanity”. The Qur’an 3:64: “Say: ‘O People of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you...” The Qur’an 49:13: “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is the most righteous of you...” "Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. (The Quran, 60:8)" "This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).  (The Noble Quran, 5:5)" "And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book [Jews and Christians], those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account.   (The Noble Quran, 3:199)" "Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.  They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.  (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. [b]Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"[/b]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030



Gaybriel,

Allah's curse is upon me.

But i DO NOT FEAR Allah.

I fear my God.

My God, the God of Israel, is my protector, and my redeemer.




Gaybriel,

Muslims do not believe in Jesus.

Not the same Jesus in the new testament.

The muslim Jesus did not die, was not crucified, and made no atonement for mankind's sin.

If you want to know the REAL Jesus, read the Old and New Testaments.

Without Jesus, i have no forgiveness.
.....I remain a person cursed [and accused] by SATAN.





John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


Psalms 25:14
The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


Jeremiah 33:15
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16  In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.


Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

locutius wrote on Nov 19^th, 2008 at 4:58pm:

Interesting Muso. COULD it be evil? Hmm I think the question is wide enough that good arguments in the affirmative could be established, however I also think that most of those arguments will overlap with many religions. But this could all up be an interesting exercise. You avoided the obvious and far easier question of whether Christians have been evil. And you could ask that question on as small or large a scale as you want. It also would not have required a single reference to Text but history. Anyway I'm going to have a quick dig into Nietzsche to remind me of what he thought. I don't agree with everything he says but a lot mirrors things I have considered and thought they weren't completely baseless. Then we have Alister Crowley and Anton LaVey. But I take these two with very little seriousness, but they had a view point.

I left it as a question. My own view is that neither Christianity nor Islam are evil, but that they are both benevolent paradigms for life and inspiration.

You're right though - if you remove the people from the equation, then you don't have a religion, so we need to consider how their followers have behaved through the ages.

It all comes down to interpretation. The most fanatical misanthrope and the most compassionate philanthrope will both find words to inspire in Islamic and Christian Scripture alike.

To one, 'merciful' would mean a quick death with a sharp saif; to the other, it means administering the full spectrum of compassion and decency.

Just tell me what you want to do (Good or Evil) and I'll find appropriate texts from both the Bible and the Qu'ran to back you up.

Should we judge a religion on the basis of individual misinterpretation? I don't think so.

Alistair Crowley came fairly close to pure evil. He loosely followed Christian mythology, albeit from the wrong side  :P

To one, 'merciful' would mean a quick death with a sharp saif; to the other, it means administering the full spectrum of compassion and decency.

Just tell me what you want to do (Good or Evil) and I'll find appropriate texts from both the Bible and the Qu'ran to back you up


Mate, that was very well put indeed. I wish I had said it. I agree completely.

If you want to see evil perhaps you should read the views of some posters justifying the murder of a Palestinian 13 y.o girl, who was in her uniform when shot, in clear daylight..her body riddled with 14 bullets no less.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229690857/9

Interesting question...what is evil? I would of thought that justify the murder of an innocent girl would be getting awfully close to evil in anyones language.

I can only imagine the outrage that would be shown if either myself or Abu had said these things.

I don't know...but maybe if people started voicing their opposition to the evils occuring in their very own backyards (this forum) before what people may or may not be doing in some distant country at the other end of the world, then perhaps we can move onto bigger fish like 'religon'.

Locuitus...care to comment, or is it only 'muslim deception' which riles you up?

What deception are you talking about Lestat?

I've been pretty consistant when I say I hold deception by anyone in extremely low regard, not just "Muslim deception". Start a post on Deception in communication and I will try to explain my position and answer any questions you have.

There are actually many topics that I don't open because sometimes the title of the topic suggests that it will end up in the same old tit-for-tat that you seem to find entertaining but I don't. Would I be correct to assume that nothing new has been said there. I'll have a look when time allows.

Yadda- that's completely off topic. My quotes refute yours and explain the context of your quotes.

Did you read the analyses I posted?

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:35pm:

Yadda- that's completely off topic. My quotes refute yours and explain the context of your quotes. Did you read the analyses I posted?

We can always hope. There is a lot of interfaith dialog going on in Australia, although not on this forum. I'd classify that more as interfaith bickering.

If we can actually read each others' replies and try to see it from the other's point of view without denouncing each other using even more stereotypes, maybe we'll start to close the gap.

Take a page out of the book of Sheik Ali Salah Mohammed Hussein, a Sufi Sheik from Palestine who has taken on the task of brokering peace between Palestine and Israel.

I heard him recently on Radio National. He made the point that it's not about winning points all the time. Sometimes you win by giving more than the other side. To do so is a sign of strength and security.



Quote:

We are the children of Abraham, and we all have a Holy Task. We know the immense love of Abraham, and we rejoice in the peace that we spread through the world.

Should I repost my reply so you can actually attempt to refute it or make apologies for Islam again gaybriel?

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 4:35pm:

Yadda- that's completely off topic. My quotes refute yours and explain the context of your quotes. Did you read the analyses I posted?

I am sorry Gaybriel,
.....but we will have to agree to disagree.




Quote:

".....Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people."

http://www.pakistanlink.com/religion/97/re12-12-97.html

I regard this assertion, as propaganda, an outright lie, and attempted deception.






From the same source.....

Quote:

".....Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness."

.....'justice and fairness'

LIES, LIES, LIES.

BARE FACED LIES.





Gaybriel,

Unlike the commands in the Bible, towards the treatment of strangers [unbelievers], which i have outlined here....

"Are muslims God's people?"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1226445495/0#0

.....Sharia mandates a separate, unequal justice, in the treatment of non-muslims and muslims, in all Sharia jurisdictions.

Gaybriel,

THIS IS A FACT,
......WHETHER YOU WILL ACKNOWLEDGE IT OR NOT.



There is no equality of [legal or political] rights, for non-muslims, under Sharia law.

And this circumstance is *mandated* within ISLAM, towards non-muslims, in all Sharia jurisdictions.

Two examples from ISLAMIC texts....

......"The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives,
and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/083.sbt.html#009.083.050

"What is written in this paper?"......
".......the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.283


Here [above], effectively, we are told that muslims must not be punished for killing non-believers.


Gaybriel,

Sharia mandates legal and political apartheid, where muslims [the 'innocent'] and non-muslims [those 'guilty' of unbelief] MUST BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY.



Gaybriel,

ISLAM......is a false religion, for a false people.

Please open your eyes.

there is only one perfect being, God.

god made humans who are in themselves imperfect, this imperfection allows for evil (evil is the absence of God).

thus EVERY human is not immune from sin.

the only things that separates christianity from anyone else is the aspiration to love God and thus do what god wants.

The catholic church have made many mistakes, but at least they have apologized for them and tried to make ammends

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 7:19am:

Should I repost my reply so you can actually attempt to refute it or make apologies for Islam again gaybriel?

the last thing I can see from you is "come out come out wherever you are". if I'm missing a post then yes please bring it to my attention

Oh yeah the larger one above it   ::) ;D ::) ;D

Classic Liberal wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 12:32pm:

The catholic church have made many mistakes, but at least they have apologized for them and tried to make ammends

That's why I've always had a soft spot for the Catholic Church. I even married a Catholic and I bought her some new rosary beads at the Vatican. Human beings, including priests are not perfect.

John Paul II did a great deal of good work with other faiths. The Catholic Church have at least tried to bridge the gap. As a result of his work, the Catholic religion is now one of the more tolerant and ecumenical of world religions. I still don't agree with them on condoms, especially in Africa, but that policy tends to be ignored where it matters.

Some of the Muslims on here are also trying very hard. Gaybriel - your efforts here are appreciated.  

The Qu'ran has a similar passage which I quoted earlier which basically echoes the concept that only God knows.

As for my own interpretation, I read that as "there are some things that we'll never know".

Grendel wrote on Nov 21^st, 2008 at 1:34pm:

Oh yeah the larger one above it   ::) ;D ::) ;D

I already answered that with the posts I gave re muslim and non-muslim friendship.

the quotes you gave suggest both friendliness and actually being friends.

it's true that there are quotes that suggest one should not seek intimacy with non-muslims if they are going to draw you away from your religion. These statements are always qualified, but if you want to take it as a blanket statement then so be it.

I  have heard similar things from Christian's btw. I once had a christian friend of mine call me and tell me she couldn't be friends with me anymore because she had been advised by her church not to hang out with non-Christians because they may lead her into temptation.

I said to her what I would say to any muslim who would say the same to me- that I believe the test of a person is someone who resists temptation. Sure, if something will draw you away from your religion then you have to do what you think is right and avoid it- but in my opinion that makes that person the weak one. The problem is with their strength and resolve- not with me.

You have severe comprehension problems when it comes to things Muslim don't you.

Want me to post it one more time for you or would that be a waste of my time?  I'm thinking it would be the latter.