http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56929

Two young boys ordered to take a school test that would result in their conversion to Islam wrote, "I am Christian," on the exam papers, knowing in advance that could very well spell the end of their educations. Now a U.S.-based organization is lobbying for international pressure on Egypt to quit forcing Christians into such no-win situations.

"What brought the case to the public attention is the categorical refusal of the two kids to pass the Islamic exams and convert to Islam, stating, 'they will not deny their Christianity and convert to Islam no matter what it would cost them,'" Sam Grace, a spokesman for Coptic News said.

The organization aims to "reveal the untold stories … which are not told by the conventional Arabic press."

He told WND the boys, Mario Medhat Ramses, 11, and Andrew Medhat Ramses, 13, now are facing a future without educational opportunities even though they had been classified as "brilliant" students at the French Lycee school of Alexandria.

Grace said Egypt's ministry of education ordered the boys to take the test that would result in their conversion to Islam because their father, who left the family about five years ago, had decided to convert from Christianity to Islam.

The parents, Medhat Ramses and Camellia Medhat were a Christian couple when the boys were born, but the father then divorced the mother, leaving his sons behind, and converted to Islam to marry a Muslim.

But Islamic religious law, which has been adopted by the civil government in Egypt, requires that children follow the faith of any parent who converts to Islam, "since Islam is the superior religion that abrogated all other religions," Grace said.

And leaving the children "to follow the corrupted religions (Christianity and Judaism) of the other parent would be condemning the kids to the doom of hell fire where Christians, Jews and all other non-Muslims are destined," he said.

"We need all human rights organizations to try to force Egypt to respect the human rights conventions, and Egypt is a signatory for all these human rights conventions," Grace said. "Our aim is really that we want to call on all human rights groups in the civilized world, and all freedom-loving people. We want to incite them into action, to call Egyptian embassies, letting them know that [this] cannot happen in the 21st Century."

Grace told WND the boys already are serving as deacons in their Christian church, and have gone on Egyptian talk programs to express their dedication to Christianity. The Egyptian media, he said, has portrayed the situation as a mother applying pressure on her sons not to convert.

Their situation arose because of the Islamic law demand that children follow their father's faith if it is Islam. The nation's education ministry then requires children to take – and pass – a test on Islam in order for them to be advanced in school. No passing grade, no more schooling, Grace said.

"The whole Egyptian Coptic Christian people are praying and pleading with the conscience of all the human rights organizations, governments and public opinions of all the civilized world to contact … the Egyptian embassies … and demand that the Egyptian government stop torturing those two kids and their mother," Grace said.

The Middle East Review of International Affairs said the rise of Islam in Egypt arrived with Anwar Sadat's tenure.

"He then initiated what one could, in hindsight, term 'the Great Islamic Transformation' of Egypt. The first step was to stipulate in the Second Article of his new Constitution, promulgated in 1971 (long before Khomeini embarked on his Islamic revolutionary campaign), that the Principles of Islamic Shari'a were 'a main source' of legislation. In May 1981, the 'a' was replaced with 'the,' making Shari'a the term of reference for the entire constitution, meaning all other articles were to be interpreted in that light," the organization said.

"The curricula of public schools, established by the Ministry of Education, ignore the Coptic era in Egypt's history. Courses glorifying Islam (the 'Only True Religion') and its history, while vilifying the crusaders (i.e. Christians) and the Jews, are imposed on all students," the group said.

"In the case of a father of a Christian family converting to Islam, his minor children are forced to follow suit: The mother's custody rights – a well established legal principle – are ignored in this case, as children, according to typical court rulings, are supposed to follow the 'better (or 'more noble') of the two religions,'" the group said.

There also are other indications that Egypt is not particularly tolerant of non-Muslims. An Egyptian Christian who had fled his home nation, "most assuredly has a right not to be tortured," a federal court ruled in allowing him to remain in the United States.

The court pointedly concluded that "diplomatic assurances" of his religious rights "by a country known to have engaged in torture" weren't reassuring.

A report from the Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights concluded Coptic Christians in Egypt have been harassed, tortured and killed by Muslims for 1,400 years.

"They have been subjected to all kinds of hate crimes including, the abduction of young Coptic girls, the killing of Coptic women and children and the destruction of their places of worship," the report concluded.

The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, an agency created by

It'ld be good if you could comment on this Adu/Gaybriel.
Perhaps if this "is not islam" you would like to write to egypts ministry of education and inform them of this fact.

hey - I can post on this thread !!!!!!!!

Sounds like a load of bovine faeces to me.

The Coptic organisations in the West are known for twisting stories and lying to their Western hosts in order to incite them against Islam. Even their fellow Coptics inside Egypt often rebuke them for being so inflammatory with their rubbish.

The Egyptian government is extremely pro-Coptic. In fact only a year or so ago, the wife of a top Coptic leader converted to Islam, and the government actually abducted her and forced her to denounce Islam and return to her Coptic husband, in order to maintain "harmony" amongst Egyptian religious communities.

So I wouldn't really be inclined to believe this story. I've also seen cases of Coptics here in Australia converting to Islam and their parents sending them back to Egypt to be "re-educated" about Coptic Christianity.

EGYPT

      BIO      The Coptic Orthodox church is the largest in
     Egypt and the entire Middle East. It is approximately 7-10
     million strong (10% of the population), but since the church
     in Egypt is not allowed to carry out an official census,
     accurate figures are difficult to ascertain. The Egyptian
     Church faces persecution and hardship in a number of
     spheres:

     Law
     The distinction between civil law and Shar'ia (Islamic Law)
     in Egypt has been deliberately eroded over the years.
     Significantly, in 1980, the National Assembly accepted an
     amendment to the Constitution, designating Shar'ia as
     “the…principal source of legislation” instead of “a…prin-
     ciple source of legislation”.

     Government Positions and Employment
     Egypt’s Coptic community is poorly represented in the
     higher levels of government, in the military and in senior
     teaching positions. Out of 28 Egyptian governors, none
     are Christian and there are no Christian ambassadors,
     heads of universities or deans. The country’s People’s
     Assembly contains just seven Copts, only three of whom
     are elected—a gross under-representation.



 

 CSW Reports on Egypt

 
     Education
     Coptic Christians are not able to attend the famous Al-Azhar University in Cairo. The Coptic language is not taught at Universities and the Coptic era in Egyptian history has been omitted in school history lessons, until this year, where it has been taught in state schools for the first time. The Koran is often used to teach the Arabic language to students, including Christians, and Arabic language teachers are Muslim. Every school has a mosque, but no similar places of prayer exist for Christians.  
     Church construction
     State control of church property is governed by the outdated Ottoman Hamayouni Decree of 1856, amplified by the Interior Ministry in 1934 as the Alazabi Decree. This decree sets out certain restrictive
     conditions which must be met before a church can be built. It additionally requires the signature of the President before construction can commence. No such signature is required in order to build a
     mosque.

     Conversion
     Individuals who convert from Islam to Christianity face discrimination and violence from their family,
     Muslim neighbors, or the state police. Furthermore, a Muslim wife is required to divorce an apostate husband; converts from Islam lose all inheritance rights; they also lose custody of their children and
     they are unable to change their religious affiliation on state identity cards. No similar legal con-sequences befall converts from Christianity to Islam.


     Recent examples of religious intolerance against Christians

     The past decade has seen a rise in violent attacks by Islamic extremists, followed by severe govern-ment crackdowns on their activity in an attempt to put an end to the violence and to regain control.
     Unfortunately, violence against Christians still continues but state police and/or Muslim mobs are increasingly becoming the perpetrators. Such violence has gone unpunished by the Egyptian legal system in recent years.

     In January 2000, in El-Kosheh village, Upper Egypt, 21 Coptic Christians were killed over the course of a few days’ rioting. The General Prosecutor’s report of his investigation into the incident
     blames the massacre on delinquent elements within both the Muslim and Christian communities, disappointing Egypt’s Coptic Christians who note that all except one of the casualties of the violence
     were Christians. Concern has also been expressed that no police officers were detained or interrogated, despite the testimony of Copts regarding police negligence and complicity in the violence.

     Finally, in a verdict handed down on February 5, 2001, an Egyptian court acquitted all but four of the
     ninety-six people charged with crimes relating to the violence. None were convicted with murder.
     This verdict outraged Egyptian Christians and human rights activists all over the world. However, a
     request to appeal the verdict has been successful and the case will be retried.

   tbc

seems your allegations are agian disproved Abu.
ie, you lied

Recent examples of religious intolerance against Christians

     The past decade has seen a rise in violent attacks by Islamic extremists, followed by severe govern-
     ment crackdowns on their activity in an attempt to put an end to the violence and to regain control.
     Unfortunately, violence against Christians still continues but state police and/or Muslim mobs are
     increasingly becoming the perpetrators. Such violence has gone unpunished by the Egyptian legal
     system in recent years.

     In January 2000, in El-Kosheh village, Upper Egypt, 21 Coptic Christians were killed over the
     course of a few days’ rioting. The General Prosecutor’s report of his investigation into the incident
     blames the massacre on delinquent elements within both the Muslim and Christian communities,
     disappointing Egypt’s Coptic Christians who note that all except one of the casualties of the violence
     were Christians. Concern has also been expressed that no police officers were detained or
     interrogated, despite the testimony of Copts regarding police negligence and complicity in the violence.

     Finally, in a verdict handed down on February 5, 2001, an Egyptian court acquitted all but four of the
     ninety-six people charged with crimes relating to the violence. None were convicted with murder.
     This verdict outraged Egyptian Christians and human rights activists all over the world. However, a
     request to appeal the verdict has been successful and the case will be retried.

     In June 2000, Coptic Christian, William Shaiboub Arsal, was sentenced to 15 years with hard labor
     for the murder of two Christian men in El-Kosheh village in August 1998. The murders were the
     catalyst for the notorious El-Kosheh incident (since dubbed El-Kosheh I), in which over 1000 local
     Coptic Christians were detained by police, despite the fact that three Muslim men were identified as
     responsible. Many of those detained were tortured by local police officers, including William, who
     was first taken into custody on September 17, 1998. He was hung upside down by his feet, beaten,
     tied to a chair and given electric shocks to sensitive parts of his body.

     William Shaiboub’s lawyers have confirmed that his verdict is being appealed at the Egyptian Court of
     Cassation. In the meantime, William remains in prison.

     What is common to both these episodes is that police negligence and complicity has gone un-
     questioned and unpunished. Egypt’s Christian community is understandably feeling very vulnerable
     and inadequately protected by national law.

     Overall Human Rights Situation

     Major human rights organizations continue to report the systematic use of torture by police and
     security forces to obtain confessions. Prisoners of conscience continue to be sentenced and held.
     Political parties, NGOs and the news media continue to face legal restrictions and government control.

     In May 1999, a law regulating civil institutions including NGOs was passed by the Egyptian Parliament.
     This imposed a wide range of restrictive conditions, including criminal penalties for offenses that might
     amount to no more than the exercise of freedom of association



http://www.cswusa.com/countries/Egypt.htm

Or would you like a few utubes ??

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=CWTZAR18m2k

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=36TNd3c0K8Q&feature=related

I don't know what the situation is like now, but I used to talk to an Egyptian Coptic girl regularly via IRC about 12 years ago. She was of the opinion that there were many more Coptics than 10% - more like 30%, but that they were not particularly prominent in society.

She didn't have many problems with freedom of worship, although from what I gather, the Coptics are every bit as conservative as the Muslims when it comes to their social life, type of dress etc.

She ended up becoming an Arabic language broadcaster for the BBC and we lost touch.

sprintcyclist,

No point wasting your time. I don't doubt there's people complaining, what I doubt is the basis of their complaints.

Likewise Muslims are not permitted to have political parties nor to do many other things in Egyptian and most Arab societies. The Muslim Brotherhood for instance, is the most popular political group in Egypt, yet is forbidden from standing in any election, or even from existing as a party. So the discrimination perhaps exists against Coptics, but it exists against Muslims also.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 7:12am:

sprintcyclist, No point wasting your time. I don't doubt there's people complaining, what I doubt is the basis of their complaints. Likewise Muslims are not permitted to have political parties nor to do many other things in Egyptian and most Arab societies. The Muslim Brotherhood for instance, is the most popular political group in Egypt, yet is forbidden from standing in any election, or even from existing as a party. So the discrimination perhaps exists against Coptics, but it exists against Muslims also.

IF ONLY, the Australian govt had as much common sense.

They would recognise ISLAM for what it is.
.....EVIL, A DANGER TO ALL CIVIL SOCIETY, AND AN ORGANISATION WHICH PROMOTES INTER-COMMUNAL VIOLENCE.



IF ONLY, the Australian govt had 1/2 the common sense as the Egyptian authorities....

They would
1/ BAN the Koran, in Australia,
2/ close all mosques in Australia, and
3/ deport all persons who claimed to be muslim clerics.



There is something in my drinking water.

firstly Yadda- Australia is a democracy and has realised the danger in randomly banning things it doesn't like. like when they revoked the ban on the communist party

that would make it oppressive. isn't that one of the things you hate about islam? yet you wish to mimic the behaviour you say it exhibits?

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 1:13pm:

firstly Yadda- Australia is a democracy and has realised the danger in randomly banning things it doesn't like. like when they revoked the ban on the communist party that would make it oppressive. isn't that one of the things you hate about islam? yet you wish to mimic the behaviour you say it exhibits?

Gaybriel,

There you go again, 'apologising' for ISLAM [out of ignorance i hope, because only an ignorant person would defend ISLAM with the principles of Democracy].

The Koran is a document which encourages hatred and murder.

You may wish to study it.

Should Democracy defend such 'ideals'???

You seem to be suggesting this [in your ignorance].






Gaybriel, i do not like ISLAM.

I do not dislike ISLAM through my ignorance.

But i dislike ISLAM, because i have studied ISLAM, and i know what ISLAM is.

PURE EVIL.






"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Mann

Yadda wrote on Nov 10^th, 2008 at 1:26pm:

. The Koran is a document which encourages hatred and murder. You may wish to study it. Should Democracy defend such 'ideals'??? You seem to be suggesting this [in your ignorance]. Gaybriel, i do not like ISLAM. I do not dislike ISLAM through my ignorance. But i dislike ISLAM, because i have studied ISLAM, and i know what ISLAM is. PURE EVIL. "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Mann

actually I haven't apologised for anything. you however have failed to address my post on any basic level.

your opinion is that islam is evil- my opinion is that it is not. that's all there is to it

btw for someone who obviously values independent thought so highly, you sure have been ready to jump on grendel's bandwagon.

perhaps try applying the description 'apology' where it actually fits.

my post barely referenced islam, so I don't see how I am apologising for it

you assume my belief that islam is not evil is one born of ignorance. in this case you are incorrect. perhaps just deal with the fact that there are people who disagree with you.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 9^th, 2008 at 11:13pm:

Sounds like a load of bovine faeces to me. The Coptic organisations in the West are known for twisting stories and lying to their Western hosts in order to incite them against Islam. Even their fellow Coptics inside Egypt often rebuke them for being so inflammatory with their rubbish. The Egyptian government is extremely pro-Coptic. In fact only a year or so ago, the wife of a top Coptic leader converted to Islam, and the government actually abducted her and forced her to denounce Islam and return to her Coptic husband, in order to maintain "harmony" amongst Egyptian religious communities. So I wouldn't really be inclined to believe this story. I've also seen cases of Coptics here in Australia converting to Islam and their parents sending them back to Egypt to be "re-educated" about Coptic Christianity.

if the are so pro Coptic why are they not counted in the census????

Abu - these conditions
Quote:

Education     Coptic Christians are not able to attend the famous Al-Azhar University in Cairo. The Coptic language is not taught at Universities and the Coptic era in Egyptian history has been omitted in school history lessons, until this year, where it has been taught in state schools for the first time. The Koran is often used to teach the Arabic language to students, including Christians, and Arabic language teachers are Muslim. Every school has a mosque, but no similar places of prayer exist for Christians.       Church construction     State control of church property is governed by the outdated Ottoman Hamayouni Decree of 1856, amplified by the Interior Ministry in 1934 as the Alazabi Decree. This decree sets out certain restrictive     conditions which must be met before a church can be built. It additionally requires the signature of the President before construction can commence. No such signature is required in order to build a     mosque.

appear to be oppressive to me.
Also the doozy about NOT being counted in the census.

what do you think ?

sprint, pender,

Perhaps they're making up for Lebanon, where the MANDATORY Christian led government has refused to permit a census since 1932, knowing full well that Muslims outnumbered Christians by this time?

At least Egypt has had a Christian leader, in Lebanon it's actually in legislation that the leader MUST be a Christian, even though the majority of the population is quite clearly Muslim.

Also sprint, it's quite amusing that you mention not being allowed to enrol at al-Azhar. It's an Islamic university, to train to be an "Islamic cleric" (Don't tell freediver I admitted they exist though)  ;D

What a joke really. Anyway it has a secular campus now I think, and I'm pretty sure Christians study there, even if they didn't so what, it's an Islamic university, for studying Islam, isn't the whole point of the thread Christians don't wanna study Islam?

So if they are successful in their studies and become a Muslim cleric, do they cease to exist?

Damn I shoulda known you'd see it, and find out the truth  ;D

Yeh, the graduation ceremony actually takes place on a ship in the dead centre of the Bermuda triangle.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 12^th, 2008 at 9:16pm:

sprint, pender, Perhaps they're making up for Lebanon, where the MANDATORY Christian led government has refused to permit a census since 1932, knowing full well that Muslims outnumbered Christians by this time? At least Egypt has had a Christian leader, in Lebanon it's actually in legislation that the leader MUST be a Christian, even though the majority of the population is quite clearly Muslim. Also sprint, it's quite amusing that you mention not being allowed to enrol at al-Azhar. It's an Islamic university, to train to be an "Islamic cleric" (Don't tell freediver I admitted they exist though)  ;D What a joke really. Anyway it has a secular campus now I think, and I'm pretty sure Christians study there, even if they didn't so what, it's an Islamic university, for studying Islam, isn't the whole point of the thread Christians don't wanna study Islam?

i have never said anything about lebanon, you stated that egypt was pro coptic, as they are clearly not.

personally i have no problem in a country being pro muslim if the majority of its population is muslim, as in egypt, it was you who got all defensive about it.

Yes i can back that up we have a coptic girl at work.  Her whole family left Egypt.

Grendel wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 7:19am:

Yes i can back that up we have a coptic girl at work.  Her whole family left Egypt.

lol, and this is evidence of what exactly? My whole family also left Egypt, so what?

Most Egyptains are hanging to get out of the country, muslims and copts alike.

I think you'll find that per capita, copts are far better off in Egypt then muslims, they often hold higher positions of power, and are far better of socio-economically.

So you say

mod: personal personal personal

Lestat wrote on Nov 20^th, 2008 at 10:29am:

Grendel wrote on Nov 20th, 2008 at 7:19am: Yes i can back that up we have a coptic girl at work.  Her whole family left Egypt. lol, and this is evidence of what exactly? My whole family also left Egypt, so what? Most Egyptains are hanging to get out of the country, muslims and copts alike. I think you'll find that per capita, copts are far better off in Egypt then muslims, they often hold higher positions of power, and are far better of socio-economically.

this has nothing to do with the governement helping the copts though.

heeeeyyyyyyy  what was personal?
Bloody hell the fact he has NO credibility is a FACT, not personal abuse.

http://lexicorient.com/e.o/egypt_4.htm

Hmmm  90+% Muslim
3+% coptic

yeah I can see how they run the country.


Quote:

Coptic Christians, being the largest religious minority in Egypt, are also negatively affected. Copts have faced increasing marginalization after the 1952 coup d'état led by Gamal Abdel Nasser. Until recently, Christians were required to obtain presidential approval for even minor repairs in churches. Although the law was eased in 2005 by handing down the authority of approval to the governors, Copts continue to face many obstacles in building new churches. These obstacles are not as much in building mosques.

Ah and Cairo is known as "the city of a thousand minarets"...  gee wonder who built them.