Abu has commented here a few times that Islam opposes nationalism, and that nationalism was introduced by the west to the middle east to maintain control over it, by dividing and conquering.

However, Islam itself is a far more radical form of nationalism. It compels it's followers to join the Islamic nation. It preaches superiority of members of the nation over non-members. Calling the nation a caliphate instead does not mean it isn't nationalism.

The problems inherent in familiar forms of nationalism are due to things like the implied sense of superioirty, the devaluing of citizens of other countries, and the agitation for war. All of these nasty views are made explicit in Islam. The worst aspects of war, which western leaders have been trying to eradicate for centuries, are specifically allowed in Islam - forced mass migration, the theft of all property, and even slavery. Islam goes beyond a false sense of entitlement or cultural superiority to a sense of divine, God-given superiority and then unleashes it's followers to violently act on that sense of superioirty.

I suspect that when Abu criticises nationalism in the middle east, it is not because he sees nationalism as inherently bad, but because it is the wrong flavour of nationalism. Rather than being too extreme, it is not extreme enough.

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:26pm:

Abu has commented here a few times that Islam opposes nationalism, and that nationalism was introduced by the west to the middle east to maintain control over it, by dividing and conquering. However, Islam itself is a far more radical form of nationalism. It compels it's followers to join the Islamic nation. It preaches superiority of members of the nation over non-members. Calling the nation a caliphate instead does not mean it isn't nationalism. The problems inherent in familiar forms of nationalism are due to things like the implied sense of superioirty, the devaluing of citizens of other countries, and the agitation for war. All of these nasty views are made explicit in Islam. The worst aspects of war, which western leaders have been trying to eradicate for centuries, are specifically allowed in Islam - forced mass migration, the theft of all property, and even slavery. Islam goes beyond a false sense of entitlement or cultural superiority to a sense of divine, God-given superiority and then unleashes it's followers to violently act on that sense of superioirty. I suspect that when Abu criticises nationalism in the middle east, it is not because he sees nationalism as inherently bad, but because it is the wrong flavour of nationalism. Rather than being too extreme, it is not extreme enough.

FD,

You may wish to understand the concept of the word Ummah,

"....an Arabic word meaning Community or Nation".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah



i.e. there is only one community of muslims all over the world.

And muslims identify as being a part of the ummah first, part of Australia, UK, Holland, etc, 2nd.

A devout muslims loyalty is always with ISLAM, exclusively.

Islam opposes both nationalism and tribalism. This is because they are bonds based on racial/ethnic ties that have no value in Islam.

Of course Islam does does not oppose members of national unit having pride in their nation, but for Muslims it cannot be based on ethnic or racial ties, it should be based on belief in Islam.

All the other rot about superiority and thieving properties, like most of your other crap freediver derives only from your own fantasies, I really don't know what you think you achieve by posting it.

Quote:

Islam opposes both nationalism and tribalism. This is because they are bonds based on racial/ethnic ties that have no value in Islam

.

Nationalism is based on national ties, like belonging to the same caliphate. Americans for example come from lots of different races, ethnicities and cultures. Yet they still show strong nationalism. Calling your country a caliphate rather than a nation, basing membership on religion in addition to geography, does not mean that the false sense of superiority and entitlement is not nationalism.

Islam does not oppose nationalism, it opposes any form of nationalism that does not serve the spread of the ideology. It fosters the most extreme form of nationalism when it is assists the spread of Islam.


Quote:

All the other rot about superiority and thieving properties, like most of your other crap freediver derives only from your own fantasies

Are you saying Islam does not permit the taking of spoils of war? Are you saying it does not preach superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims?

Quote:

Are you saying Islam does not permit the taking of spoils of war?

"If Kuwait grew carrots we wouldn't give a damn". Show me any nation/empire in the history of humanity that didn't take spoils of war. I don't think these things themselves are ridiculous, I think your mentioning of them as being purely Islamic concepts is what's ridiculous.


Quote:

Are you saying it does not preach superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims?

Nope, not saying that at all, but again, show me a nation/empire in the history of humanity that hasn't.

Just because something has been done, or is being done by someone else, it doesn't make it right. You continually comment on what the Jews, Christians or the west has done or is doing as if it's some sort of defence or excuse for the abhorrent stuff Islam does. It isn't.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 10:07am:

Quote: Are you saying Islam does not permit the taking of spoils of war? "If Kuwait grew carrots we wouldn't give a damn". Show me any nation/empire in the history of humanity that didn't take spoils of war. I don't think these things themselves are ridiculous, I think your mentioning of them as being purely Islamic concepts is what's ridiculous. [quote]Are you saying it does not preach superiority of Muslims over non-Muslims?

Nope, not saying that at all, but again, show me a nation/empire in the history of humanity that hasn't.[/quote]

I never said they were purely Islamic concepts. In fact what I am arguing is that Islam's promotion of blind nationalism makes is similar to other insidious ideologies, not different. You were the one trying to argue that Islam is somehow different in regard to nationalism. I was just pointing out how hollow this argument is. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. You will argue that Islam is better or different, then when we point out that it isn't, you will turn around and argue that it is no different.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 10:06pm:

All the other rot about superiority and thieving properties, like most of your other crap freediver derives only from your own fantasies, I really don't know what you think you achieve by posting it.

abu,

Not entirely.

There is the information contained within the Koran.

You are a muslim abu.

You know that the Koran teaches ISLAMIC supremacism, war fighting against 'unbelievers', and further encroachment of their lands, to bring the 'peace' of ISLAM, Sharia, to those lands, and all of the world.

And of course, there is the inducement of all of that booty, which actually, 'rightfully', belongs to muslims.
....that is what Allah has said.



Allah has overcame the Jews & Christians, 'and cast terror into their hearts'.
Everything that the un-believers have, THEIR LANDS, their possessions, belongs to muslims!
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.025
v. 25 - 27
COMMENT...These verses are an encouragement to muslims to Jihad, to strive for victory, and for the 'WAR BOOTY', which is Allah's 'gift' to muslims.


It is not you [believers] who overcame the Jews & Christians; it was Allah:
It was Allah, he makes feeble the plans and stratagem of the unbelievers to resist you.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#008.017
v. 17 & 18


The muslims will overcome the unbelievers.
And as each new land falls to the influence of ISLAM,
....the unbelievers must see who will win.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#021.043
v. 43 & 44




But ISLAM is peace, not supremacism.
/sarc off




"Unbelievers are unto you open enemies."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.101


"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.216


Have no mercy for those who oppose Allah, or resist the spread of ISLAM.
Make no peace with them, kill them when you have the upper hand.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#047.034
v. 34 & 35


Muslims should be unmerciful towards the unbelievers, but be compassionate amongst each other.
Allah has promised those who believe and do RIGHTEOUS DEEDS, forgiveness, and A GREAT REWARD.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/048.qmt.html#048.029


Hadith....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.196



What does this all mean?

That ISLAM is peace????

Of course it does.
/sarc off



War fighting in this world.

This has nothing to do with religion.

Pure religion is the search for truth.

When muslim 'missionaries' invaded north Africa, and southern Europe in the 700's, they came not with persuasion, but with their swords.

ISLAM is about war fighting, deception, accumulating the booty of this world.

ISLAM is about seeking political, worldly, power.


CONFIRM THIS FOR YOURSELF.

STUDY THE KORAN, AND THE HADITH.
.....AND LOOK AT THE BEHAVIOUR OF MEN, WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIMS.






When we die, as we soon must, we take none of this world with us.

All you will take with you, is that which is in your heart.

Don't be foolish children.


Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


+++++++++


"And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance
Robert M Pirsig

Quote:

but for Muslims it cannot be based on ethnic or racial ties, it should be based on belief in Islam

So Islam supports nationalism when it is support for an Islamic state, but opposes it when it is in support of a non-Islamic state. The 'against nationalism' spin has nothing to do with the problems that nationalism causes, but is merely about helping Islam as a nation?

Quote:

So Islam supports nationalism...

If it's not based on racial, ethnic, tribal, citizenship lines, then it's not nationalism is it?

Do you actually know what nationalism is fd? It appears not.

The Islamic bond is a spiritual/ideological bond, it has nothing at all to do with nationalism.

Quote:

The Islamic bond is a spiritual/ideological bond, it has nothing at all to do with nationalism.

Except that the ideology which binds them also calls them to be a member of the Islamic nation. Islam is a political and nationalistic ideology as well as a religion.

The Islamic bond transcends all nationalistic boundaries, it's simply not the same.

But this is about nationalism, not the 'Islamic bond'. The nationalism is the same. It just gets subjected to the needs of Islam in the same way as everything else. Making it religious in nature rather than the more arbitrary distinctions commonly used elsewhere just heightens the nationalistic fervour. It combines every possible ideology, including blind rampant nationalism, into an 'us-vs-them' apartheid society and expansionist military machine.

As I stated, there's no such thing as nationalism amongst Muslims, only the Islamic bond.

Except for those misguided people who've been misled into believing in nationalism.

Muhammad (pbuh) clearly stated about nationalism:

Whoever dies fighting for it, dies in jahiliyah (ignorance).
And described it as a coal from the coals of hellfire.
And said "Leave it, it is rotten".

Nationalism is therefore prohibited in Islam, simple.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:26pm:

As I stated, there's no such thing as nationalism amongst Muslims, only the Islamic bond. Except for those misguided people who've been misled into believing in nationalism.

Which is why we should question your loyalty, all of you. Because unlike true citizens who pledge allegiance to the Crown, Muslims are fair weather friends, who will desert to ally with the ummah against us whenever it suits.



Quote:

Nationalism is therefore prohibited in Islam, simple.

Then maybe Nationalism can prohibit Islam. Sounds fair to me.

Also, thanks for the quote Abu.

It's going in my book.

More semantics I see. Islam defines nationalism as nationalism that is not in support of the Caliphate. So it can say it forbids nationalism, when in reality it plays it up more than any other ideology.

Quote:

Which is why we should question your loyalty, all of you

Well, I'd have to say that since becoming a Muslim, I've become  more loyal to Australia than I was before. As a non-Muslim Australian, I thought nationalism was a load of bollocks, and was very un-nationalistic. I would've referred to myself more as an internationalist, not in the Socialist sense, but in the sense that I believed all nations to be artificial entities that deserve no respect, my loyalty was to humanity, not to Australia, or any nation.

However, as a Muslim, I'm commanded to have respect for, and allegiance to the state in which I live. This is a simple fact of Islamic law you know you cannot deny. Even with all your dodgey propaganda about fifth-columnists and dar al-harb etc. the simple fact is that Islam commands Muslims living in non-Muslim states to be loyal to those states and to fulfil their pledges to them and to obey their rules, that don't force you to do haraam things. We have a clear example of this during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and the migration to Abyssinia.

Quote:

More semantics I see. Islam defines nationalism as nationalism that is not in support of the Caliphate. So it can say it forbids nationalism, when in reality it plays it up more than any other ideology.

I've stated my view, if you don't like it, as I said, I couldn't give a stuff. You can try to doctor the semantics to claim I believe in nationalism, good for you, that's your words and thoughts, not mine.

So how do Muslims go about turning a non-Muslim state into a Caliphate? It seems that they would be pretty hamstrung in this, as Muhammed created the first one for them. I don't think he left instructions for recreating it.


Quote:

You can try to doctor the semantics to claim I believe in nationalism

It's Islamic doctrine I am talking about.

freediver wrote on Feb 9^th, 2009 at 9:05pm:

So how do Muslims go about turning a non-Muslim state into a Caliphate? It seems that they would be pretty hamstrung in this, as Muhammed created the first one for them. I don't think he left instructions for recreating it. Quote: You can try to doctor the semantics to claim I believe in nationalism It's Islamic doctrine I am talking about.

One word for you there chief - warfare.

That's this whole jihad thing. You may have heard of it.

There seems to be a tendency to us the concepts of nation and nation state interchangably. This causes much talk at cross purposes andd subsequent gnashing of teeth.


Nation, as mosst of ius sense it corrrectly, is a 'spiritual' communal, bound-by-common-bonds kind of thing and islam would fit it well, even without the original 'common ancestry' sense of the word.

Nation states grew out of nations but many are multi-national in the sense of mani nationalities living within the state. The state is a legal entity and in no way is it necessarily the source of the same bound-by-common-bonds sense. Islam, in this sense, is not a nation state.

I do hazard to say that within islam there is an element that puts the arab ahead of the conquered or converted masses of non-arab muslims. Arabic as the language of the koran, as found in heaven since creation, has a lot to do with this.

Calanen wrote on Feb 9^th, 2009 at 8:31pm:

Also, thanks for the quote Abu. It's going in my book.

Are you going to list him in your bibliography, or somehow give him credit for this.

Cause if you don't, then it will be plaguerism. Being a lawyer...you should know that.

Lestat wrote on Feb 10^th, 2009 at 8:20am:

Calanen wrote on Feb 9th, 2009 at 8:31pm: Also, thanks for the quote Abu. It's going in my book. Are you going to list him in your bibliography, or somehow give him credit for this. Cause if you don't, then it will be plaguerism. Being a lawyer...you should know that.

You're not ready to take the Bar just yet.

Exactly how Abu Rashid could claim copyright over something Mohammed said more than 1000 years ago would be a novel copyright action. It would hardly qualify as an 'original work,'. If I was to quote some of his own vitrolic diatribes, as my own work, then perhaps. But questions remain about who 'owns' copy on a forum board on the web. But I digress.

Just punch yourself in the head for asking the question, that's quicker.

Stay in your lane brains trust. You'll crash less often.