"AN ISLAMIST rebel administration in Somalia ordered that a girl, 13, be stoned to death for adultery after the child's father reported that she was raped by three men.

Amnesty International said the al-Shabab militia, which controls the city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow in front of about 1000 spectators.

A truck laden with stones was brought to the stadium for the killing. Amnesty said the girl struggled with her captors and had to be forcibly carried into the stadium.

Amnesty said: "Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a bystander."

The girl's father told Amnesty that when he tried to report her rape to the militia the child was accused by the administration of adultery and detained.

None of the men accused of the rape was arrested. The girl was earlier reported by witnesses as being 23 years old.

Guardian News & Media"

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/articles/2008/11/03/1225560774980.html


Perhaps you could comment on this Abu ?

Yes I can comment. Islam requires 4 eye witnesses for adultery convictions, so this is obviously nothing to do with Islam.

Therefore it's being moved to the extremism forum, as it's just a case of extremism, that has nothing to do with Islam.

it does NOT say that existed .

probably the 3 rapists got a mate to testify against her.

that'ld be EASY to do in an islam area

You are a total sham Abu.

Your cowardice in the face of any issue you find confronting is symptomatic of why you would seek to retreat from your society to the safe confines of your cult existence.

The master is always right, any who challenge the master are evil.

Your inability to honestly examine anything negative that happens in the name of allah is symptomatic of automatons who have relinquished their personal ethics, and accepted the total manipulation of their cult.

Any decent human being has no trouble identifying what was reported as barbaric and horrendous, and any complicit in such barbarity as beneath contempt.

You could have said that what was reported was disgusting, and those that perpetrated the crimes were criminals in the eyes of all decent humans, no matter what religious belief they claim, but your fear of being seen to denounce another muslim does not allow you the freedom to express an opinion of that nature, and that is disgusting.

Abu, if you're going to move this thread to extremism, then you may as well move the enitre forum over.

So you're saying that because the young girl only had 3 rapists instead of 4 then it's not Islam?

I was going to post that terrible story myself but it makes me physically sick to think about what that poor girl must've gone through just for being unfortunate enough to be born under an Islamic dictatorship.
I've seen a clip of a stoning before and it's enough to make anybody throw up.

Can't you see that it's the Islamic brainwashing which provides these barbarians a reason for committing these types of acts.
For your religion to save any respect at all. it needs the entire muslim community to use their own brains, stand on their own two feet, and denounce (in a big way) these pathetic acts that are committed in the name of Allah.

While this is not 'by the Koran', that doesn't mean it has nothing at all to do with Islam. For example, if it wasn't for Islam, the punishment of stoning to death for adultery would have probably died out by now.

Abu, even if she was a 13 year old adulteress and there were four witnesses, stoning her to death would still be a horrendous crime. It is saddening that you seem more concerned about whether this evil crime was done by the book.

Quote:

hile this is not 'by the Koran', that doesn't mean it has nothing at all to do with Islam.

If someone is convicted by a law that's not Islam, then I would really struggle to see how it has anything to do with Islam. Kind of like saying this is related to America, because they have death penalties too.


Quote:

For example, if it wasn't for Islam, the punishment of stoning to death for adultery would have probably died out by now.

Speculation, and nothing more. Several Christian countries till this day still have laws that diminish the responsibility of a man who kills his adulterous wife (no court, no witnesses, no judge, no conviction, just decides to kill his wife).


Quote:

Abu, even if she was a 13 year old adulteress and there were four witnesses, stoning her to death would still be a horrendous crime.

She doesn't even appear to be married, and since the man who she supposedly committed adultery (or was raped by) with isn't known, then she's not even an adultress according to Islam, it would be fornication (if the witnesses even existed). Such circumstances clearly show this has nothing to do with Islam, but is just some lawless Somali militias implementing whatever they like.


Quote:

It is saddening that you seem more concerned about whether this evil crime was done by the book.

Nope, it's a crime, pure and simple, and those who committed it are nothing but murderers, and should be punished. Nowhere have I stated anything that indicates otherwise. Speculation is about the best you've got, for this article, and for my opinion about it. And when you base all your beliefs on speculation, you're opinion is worth squat.

It's not speculation. It's common sense. Islam allows old men to marry multiple young women, even prepubescent ones. They combine this with a punishment of death by stoning for adultery. It is inevitable that this would foster a culture of such treatment of women. Islam is what prevents people from progressing beyond such barbarity. You see it is reigning it in, which may have been the case 1400 years ago. But to indoctrinate the standards of 1400 years ago as timeless keeps these people in the dark ages.

You're basically talking about a very uncivilised part of the world. Many parts of Africa are sadly very similar. There are underlying reasons for this, but I won't go into them.

For example, in Conakry Guinea, I was told that my passport was conterfeit. In a civilised country I would have been horrified. In Guinea, I just sighed and asked "Combien?" I managed to get the 'fine' down from $US 100 to $US 20 by the usual process of bargaining. If I hadn't done that, I would have probably missed my flight.

Europeans are frequently stopped for going through red traffic lights (even though they don't). There are ways and means for companies to do business in countries like that. Donations to the Police Social Club are quite common at Christmas time.

One company employee was harrassed by police (again on the take) and he reported it to a more powerful Police official, stating that the Christmas Present was in jeopardy. He was asked to identify the police officer in an identity parade. When he did so, he left, and distinctly heard the sound of punches being laid as he left the building.

In Ghana, an infrequent problem is people impersonating airport police. In Sierra Leone, Cote D'Ivoire and Guinea, the main problem is the police themselves.

If you have enough money in some of these countries (not Ghana) you can literally get off with murder.

And yet in more civilised part of the world, like Australia for example, there are people who seem to have no problem with old men marrying multiple young girls, then stoning them to death if they cheat. Why is that?

freediver wrote on Nov 5^th, 2008 at 10:04am:

And yet in more civilised part of the world, like Australia for example, there are people who seem to have no problem with old men marrying multiple young girls, then stoning them to death if they cheat. Why is that?

Multiculturalism?  :o

f/d - maybe because both follow the same cult ??

Quote:

"AN ISLAMIST rebel administration in Somalia ordered that a girl, 13, be stoned to death for adultery...."

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 4^th, 2008 at 11:29pm:

Yes I can comment. Islam requires 4 eye witnesses for adultery convictions, so this is obviously nothing to do with Islam. Therefore it's being moved to the extremism forum, as it's just a case of extremism, that has nothing to do with Islam.

Abu,

So ISLAM, Sharia, are only responsible for good outcomes under ISLAM?

Coz, ISLAM is Allah's  perfect  religion?

/sarc off



So if this incident in Somalia has nothing to do with ISLAM, when are the real muslims [in the world] going to declare a death fatwa against these ISLAMIST impersonators, who are insulting ISLAM with their evil deeds???

Where are all of the street protests, by the  real  muslims?




Muslim SILENCE = = muslim approval.



++++++++++++++

see...

Punishment for adultery...
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225416753/7#7

Islam's influence on these regions did not disappear overnight when the last Caliphate died. You have to ask yourself, how would it be different today if there was still a Caliphate? There would still be 13 year old girls being stoned to death in stadiums. It would probably happen more often, not less.

F/D - how would it change under a caliphate ?

maybe the muftis would have front row seats ?
or they would sell tickets?

This 13 year old girl was just another victim of ISLAM.

She was a 'sacrifice', to ISLAM's authority.




".....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
Sayyid Qutb
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8802-2243871,00.html




+++++++


This 13 year old girl was a victim of TERROR, in the service of establishing the authority of ISLAM, Sharia.



From the Hadith.....

On the use of terror against Allah's enemies,

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me:"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.1062



"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.220



+++++++



Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26  And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:


Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

So Abu, did some of your fellow brothers do this citing the koran ??
maybe YOUR version of islam is wrong ??

Highly unlikely you would be able to logically reason with them

Sooooooo......hypothetically, if a 13 year old girl was raped and there were 4 muslim male witnesses to the rape, would the girl be still stoned to death for adultery?

I think they would stone the rapist to death. In a nice orderly fashion of course. You would have to line up to throw a stone. Can't have any vigilantism.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 5^th, 2008 at 7:18pm:

Sooooooo......hypothetically, if a 13 year old girl was raped and there were 4 muslim male witnesses to the rape, would the girl be still stoned to death for adultery?

no- women are not punished for being raped in islam

if 4 men witnessed a woman being raped then the rapist would be punished

tell that to the victims of islam

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 10:44pm:

tell that to the victims of islam

victims of muslims you mean

victims of muslims that strictly follow the koran and stone girls as a logical result

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 11:16pm:

victims of muslims that strictly follow the koran and stone girls as a logical result

the quran does not permit the stoning of rape victims

tell that to the victims of islam

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 11:32pm:

tell that to the victims of islam

and here we go again

you confuse islam with the muslims who practise it

here we go again.

blaming a silly infidel for misunderstanding what muslims do in a muslim country while citing the koran.

maybe it is different if i speak arabic or swahili or ancient greek fluently.

Nah, not to this girl. or the last one or the next one.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 11:47pm:

here we go again. blaming a silly infidel for misunderstanding what muslims do in a muslim country while citing the koran. maybe it is different if i speak arabic or swahili or ancient greek fluently. Nah, not to this girl. or the last one or the next one.

infidel?!

do you think I'm muslim?!

I didn't say you were misunderstanding what you they were doing- but that you are confusing islam with the actions of muslims

an analogy- we could go with christians and christianity- the two do not always correlate, right? even if they are quoting the bible?

I am not trying to deflect away from islam in saying this- but rather trying to provide an a comparison point to shed some light

what were these muslims quoting from the quran btw? they mustn't have been quoting the part that says no woman is to be punished for rape- do you see what I mean?

if Islam forbids such an action- then muslims perform the forbidden act- is this a reflection of islam? or of the fallibility of humans?

Islam forbids drinking- if a muslim drinks is this a reflection of Islam?

Islam forbids sex before marriage- if a muslim has sex before marriage is this a reflection of Islam?

or do these things go against the teachings of Islam?

again- if you want to damn the actions of these muslims- go for gold. but the distinction between islam and muslims is an important one

No, I don't think you are a muslim, as I have said before.
I am an infidel. It is immaterial what you are.

No, of course some christians sin. Other christians criticise them for such - as they should.
show me the quotes from the NT that support such crimes.
I can show PLENTY from the koran that support all sorts of abhorrant behaviour.

those muslims were saying she should be stoned for infidelity.
When in fact she was raped, but under an ISLAM system became a victim.
It shows a FLAW in islam - do YOU see what I mean ??


Do you know the example Jesus set for a woman charged with infidelity ?
It's light years from islam.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:12am:

No, of course some christians sin. Other christians criticise them for such - as they should show me the quotes from the NT that support such crimes. I can show PLENTY from the koran that support all sorts of abhorrant behaviour. those muslims were saying she should be stoned for infidelity. When in fact she was raped, but under an ISLAM system became a victim. It shows a FLAW in islam - do YOU see what I mean ??

yes I see what you mean. but I disagree that it is a flaw in islam- I see it as a flaw in muslims. because she was not convicted via an islamic process. was there a trial? did it follow shariah? were 4 separate witnesses provided to say she committed adultery? isn't adultery cheating on your husband/wife? was she married?

were other burdens of proof met? even if 4 witnesses were produced, the person accused still has ways to prove their innocence. I think this may be as simple as taking a solemn oath that the accusation against them is false. but I'm not 100% about that

so as you can see- there was nothing islamic about what happened.

there is a smashing of islam in that women are so devalued that this could happen.


it does not show a flaw, it shows a total sham.
If you want a total system that people can live in under peace and harmony, islam is obviously not it.

Not if a 13 year old can get stoned by the word of 4 men.

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:21am:

[quote author=sprintcyclist link=1225800482/15#28 date=1225980746] yes I see what you mean. but I disagree that it is a flaw in islam- I see it as a flaw in muslims. because she was not convicted via an islamic process. was there a trial? did it follow shariah? were 4 separate witnesses provided to say she committed adultery? isn't adultery cheating on your husband/wife? was she married? were other burdens of proof met? even if 4 witnesses were produced, the person accused still has ways to prove their innocence. I think this may be as simple as taking a solemn oath that the accusation against them is false. but I'm not 100% about that so as you can see- there was nothing islamic about what happened.

Sticking to your supposedly higher standards would make it only more barbaric, not less.

'It's not islam, it's muslims' is a spurious and stupid argument and I am surprised that you advance it.

As I said before, it's Africa. Many religion inspired atrocities take place within that continent.

There are plenty of examples here of religion inspired terrorism:

http://www.apsu.edu/oconnort/3400/3400lect04.htm


Quote:

THE LORD'S RESISTANCE ARMY, or LRA, represents a mix of Christian cult, Islam, and native African religions. It is also an armed terrorist group fighting the Ugandan government, with backing from Sudan and Christian charity foundations. They seek to establish a state based on a somewhat twisted version of the Ten Commandments. ......kidnap about 12,000 boys and girls every year, raising the boys to become warriors and the girls to become domestic sex slaves. Millions of other people have been displaced from their homes by LRA action. Mass suicides sometimes occur during church services. One of their fatalistic beliefs involves hastening doomsday by spreading AIDS through the rape of girls and women. Another involves training boys to attack their home villages, kill their childhood family and friends, and cannibalize boiled body parts. The Uganda government has been trying to wipe out the LRA (and occasionally declares success), but it is hard to fight a war against forces where 80-90% of the troops consist of abducted, indoctrinated children

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


I know what it means, you might know what it means,  most University educated theologians know what it means, but uneducated savages tend to take it literally. The same principles go for Islam.


That's not a racist statement. Many parts of Africa are populated by uneducated savages, just as many parts of Europe are. I don't have an issue with the colour of their skin, and I don't take the simplistic approach that all black people are savages. I know for a fact that it's not a correct statement.  

I do however have an issue with the fact that they are savages.



"Peace on Earth, Goodwill to all men" - Right Msungu that means we kill them.

what were these muslims quoting from the quran btw? they mustn't have been quoting the part that says no woman is to be punished for rape

I don't think it says that in the Koran.

thanks muso - well written.

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 6^th, 2008 at 10:35pm:

jordan484 wrote on Nov 5th, 2008 at 7:18pm: Sooooooo......hypothetically, if a 13 year old girl was raped and there were 4 muslim male witnesses to the rape, would the girl be still stoned to death for adultery? no- women are not punished for being raped in islam if 4 men witnessed a woman being raped then the rapist would be punished

Gaybriel,

You could have perhaps clarified your statement....

In theory, in a Sharia jurisdiction...

[/quote]
....women are not punished for being raped in islam
[/quote]



In practice, in a Sharia jurisdiction...

A rape victim, is required to prove that she was in fact raped.



Those are the facts.
....are they not???

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:12am:

No, I don't think you are a muslim, as I have said before. I am an infidel. It is immaterial what you are.

Quote:

I am an infidel.

Dictionary,
infidel = = a person who has no religion or whose religion is not that of the majority.





er, sprint.

May i suggest.

Do not allow ISLAM to define who you are!!!



You are NOT an infidel.

You are a believer.



Call muslims what they are....

Muslims, are the unbelievers!!!

Have you got that straight now?

;D

I was wondering when it would come to this.

Yadda wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 12:42pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 6th, 2008 at 10:35pm: jordan484 wrote on Nov 5th, 2008 at 7:18pm: Sooooooo......hypothetically, if a 13 year old girl was raped and there were 4 muslim male witnesses to the rape, would the girl be still stoned to death for adultery? no- women are not punished for being raped in islam if 4 men witnessed a woman being raped then the rapist would be punished Gaybriel, You could have perhaps clarified your statement.... In theory, in a Sharia jurisdiction...

....women are not punished for being raped in islam
[/quote]



In practice, in a Sharia jurisdiction...

A rape victim, is required to prove that she was in fact raped.



Those are the facts.
....are they not???
[/quote]

not they're not

I believe I said this before

in correctly practised shariah- if a woman accuses a man of rape, the onus is upon him to prove it is not true.

I posted many links about this- have a look back

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 1:19pm:

in correctly practised shariah- if a woman accuses a man of rape, the onus is upon him to prove it is not true.

Gaybriel,


As an 'unbeliever', you are not properly guided by Allah.


For as the Koran correctly states, ppl such as yourself are guided by SATAN
[/sarc off]....

"Those who believe and obscure not their belief by wrongdoing, theirs is safety; and they are rightly guided."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/006.qmt.html#006.082

and,

"And he whose sight is dim to the remembrance of the Beneficent, We assign unto him a devil who becometh his comrade;
And lo! they surely turn them from the way of Allah, and yet they deem that they are rightly guided;"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/043.qmt.html#043.036
v. 36, 37


So there.

that doesn't actually have any reflection upon the facts Yadda- but nice try

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 3:04pm:

that doesn't actually have any reflection upon the facts Yadda- but nice try

Fancy you speaking of facts, girl!

You are a young woman defending sharia - your great grandmothers are turning in their graves.

Soren wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 8:46pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 7th, 2008 at 3:04pm: that doesn't actually have any reflection upon the facts Yadda- but nice try Fancy you speaking of facts, girl! You are a young woman defending sharia - your great grandmothers are turning in their graves.

since when have I defended it?

I've only pointed out what is correct shariah law, and what is incorrect practice of shariah law

I actually have a huge problem with shariah law even when it's practised correctly. I find it difficult to reconcile myself to the practise of stoning, amputation of hands etc- regardless of the crime committed

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 10:27pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 7th, 2008 at 8:46pm: Gaybriel wrote on Nov 7th, 2008 at 3:04pm: that doesn't actually have any reflection upon the facts Yadda- but nice try Fancy you speaking of facts, girl! You are a young woman defending sharia - your great grandmothers are turning in their graves. since when have I defended it? I've only pointed out what is correct shariah law, and what is incorrect practice of shariah law I actually have a huge problem with shariah law even when it's practised correctly. I find it difficult to reconcile myself to the practise of stoning, amputation of hands etc- regardless of the crime committed

Good to hear (for your grans). Watch that reflexive defernce -  "I find it difficult to reconcile myself to the practise of stoning, amputation of hands etc- regardless of the crime committed".

You should not try to reconcile yourself to stoning and amputation. You have to oppose some things on principle. When you start thinking that perhaps you should accommodate  stoning and amputation you are as good as %$#ed.

Think.  In the end, you have to stand somewhere. Can't be shifting from one foot to the other all your life.

Actually, shifting from one foot to the other helps keep the blood flowing in your legs..

Quote:

In practice, in a Sharia jurisdiction... A rape victim, is required to prove that she was in fact raped.

As opposed to?

Are you suggesting a woman shouldn't have to prove she was raped? She could just claim someone raped her, and he should be instantly convicted? What kind of nonsense is this?

I guess it would depend on how she was required to prove it.

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 8:57am:

Actually, shifting from one foot to the other helps keep the blood flowing in your legs..

Thank you , Bernard.








Jim Hacker

Quote:

Are you suggesting a woman shouldn't have to prove she was raped?

To get justice brought upon her attackers, yes. To avoid death by stoning for adultery, no. Ultimately, she shouldn't 'have to' do anything. It should be her choice.

.

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 1:19pm:

I was wondering when it would come to this.

My God is bigger than their god!

:D

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 10:17am:

Quote: In practice, in a Sharia jurisdiction... A rape victim, is required to prove that she was in fact raped. As opposed to? Are you suggesting a woman shouldn't have to prove she was raped? She could just claim someone raped her, and he should be instantly convicted? What kind of nonsense is this?

abu,

Good point.

I didn't make my argument as clear as i should have.



abu,

Perhaps you can direct us [with a link] to the last instance, where a muslim woman did provide witnesses to her rape, before a Sharia court, and prove before a Sharia court, that she was raped - - - in Saudi Arabia ???

Allow me:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Islam_doesn.27t_exist

Thank you, Sir Humphrey, facts at the fingertips again.

Jim





:)

Soren wrote on Nov 7^th, 2008 at 11:15pm:

Think.  In the end, you have to stand somewhere. Can't be shifting from one foot to the other all your life.

then again I'm 25 and don't have to have everything figured out right now do I? :)

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 9:03pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 7th, 2008 at 11:15pm: Think.  In the end, you have to stand somewhere. Can't be shifting from one foot to the other all your life. then again I'm 25 and don't have to have everything figured out right now do I? :)

It is never too early to grow a character.

Soren wrote on Nov 8^th, 2008 at 9:33pm:

Gaybriel wrote on Nov 8th, 2008 at 9:03pm: Soren wrote on Nov 7th, 2008 at 11:15pm: Think.  In the end, you have to stand somewhere. Can't be shifting from one foot to the other all your life. then again I'm 25 and don't have to have everything figured out right now do I? :) It is never too early to grow a character.

I feel I have character, I also feel I have morals and values. But I do not assume I know everything- so I try to find things out, investigate things-and approach things with an open mind.

this doesn't make me someone without character :)

Very well, as long as you know what in your characteer and values is not to be sacrificed or thrown overboard at the first sign of forceful disageement or threats or whiney accusations of political incorrectness.

I am looking forward to witnessing your 'I stand here and can do no more' moment.

gaybriel - Abu has banned me from the islam forum.

As one with character, morals and values what do you think of htis action ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2008 at 1:01am:

gaybriel - Abu has banned me from the islam forum. As one with character, morals and values what do you think of htis action ?

it depends on why he banned you- let's not continue this discussion here though- I see you have another thread about it