I want to see it. And I want to see DNA samples.

Ordinarily, I'm against executions, but this one I want to see with a passion.
I've already had a good laugh at the fading smirk on the face of Amrozi, now I want to see him writhe in pain.

I hope that the first shot takes out an eye, the second a testicle, if he has any.

Amadd wrote on Oct 28^th, 2008 at 9:49pm:

I want to see it. And I want to see DNA samples. Ordinarily, I'm against executions, but this one I want to see with a passion. I've already had a good laugh at the fading smirk on the face of Amrozi, now I want to see him writhe in pain. I hope that the first shot takes out an eye, the second a testicle, if he has any.

That is sick. Mad dogs should be shot but not as part of plebeian spectacle or they will be transform into martyrs.

..then he should be flayed. Peel back his skin starting at the fingertips and toes. Cover him with salt and watch him scream.
Just before his dying breath, then whisper in his ear...this is more fun than 10,000 virgins.

Tow his mangled corpse across the ocean by ship and then across Australia behind an FJ Holden.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Quote:

Ordinarily, I'm against executions, but this one I want to see with a passion.

It's funny how when things get a little close to home, morals and reservations go straight out the window, isn't it...

I remember one time a friend telling me how a girl he worked with would always question him about why Palestinians were always so violent, and he tried to convey to her some of the reasons behind their actions. She didn't get it, and insisted they were just insane. Then one day she came  to work cursing about her car being stolen and how she'd "kill the mongrels if I ever got a hold of them". So the guy asked her if she really meant it, or was just a little overcome, and she replied that no she'd really liked to see them killed if they got caught. Rather than bothering to show her how much of a hypocrite she was, he just shook his head and decided not to bother wasting his time.

This torture isn't my own invention...I borrowed it from guess who?
And they employ it against people who merely have different beliefs, not those who provide a suffering death to hundreds of people and ruin the lives of their families.

pleasuring in the pain of others is sick Amadd

what disgusting sentiments.

I think this whole thread should be deleted

Gaybriel,

It's the sentiments of an atheist 'humanist' who has no moral compass. So when something severe like this happens, they become even more extreme than the most rabid foam-mouthed religious loon. It's funny because they constantly criticise and condemn religious people for reacting to strongly when they're subjected to, what is often, far worse suffering than this.

I oppose capital punishment, not on the moral principle of it being inherently wrong, but in the fact that I trust no government institution to always rule fairly on matters of life and death.

Indonesia poses a different question, because life in jail, which they deserve, could mean that the next government, or next holy ramadan day, or whatever, they all get a lollipop and go home to plot their next mass murder.

It does change the question, because these men never deserve the right to walk free.

But I know that I take no joy from the thought of people dying, I know that many want vengeance for their barbarity, but vengeance, like hate, is a self consuming and negative emotion which is best avoided, wherever possible.

Like Mozzaok, I also am against capital punishment.
It is not a deterrent against the crime, ie others commit the same criome.
I feel we are not meant to kill others, even “in the name of justice”.

Some crimes (I am thinking of those against kids) make me think the criminals should never be allowed to be free.
So life in prison. Give them some menial task, so we get something from them.

I also oppose capital punishment....for everyone. I find it hypocritical that some people oppose it for the bali 9 (granted their crime was different) while support it for the bali bombers. But, it is the law in Indonesia so there isn't anything we can do about it. And I don't think the world will miss them.

Let the punishment fit the crime I say.

Unfortunately birds of a feather flock together.
I haven't seen too much condemnation for the atrocities that have been committed under the banner of Islam from those of their own religion.
Believe it, Islamicists are of an irrational brotherhood. They discount the most heinous of atrocities committed by their brothers because they are too scared to stand up for what they truly believe.

Truth is not part of the Islamic religion. It's quite OK to deceive the infidel according to the quran.
Therefore, I don't trust them. I want to see that these Bali bomber scum are removed from the face of the earth, and I want hard evidence to prove it! Show me the video, I'll watch it with glee. Prove to the Australian public that they are dead.
They have shown absolutely no remorse at all for their actions, in fact Amrozi stated that if he was released, he'd do it agian.
He is not part of humanity as far as I'm concerned. Give him the ultimate punishment.

Also, I would like to see Australian doors shut to those of the Islamic faith. I can't stand them leeching off of our hard work and then trying to turn our country into a mini Islam. Make your own way with your ridiculous beliefs and see how far it gets you.

Quote:

Also, I would like to see Australian doors shut to those of the Islamic faith. I can't stand them leeching off of our hard work and then trying to turn our country into a mini Islam. Make your own way with your ridiculous beliefs and see how far it gets you.

And what about those Muslims, like the Afghans who helped build this country from day one? Or Australains like myself who embrace Islam? Should belief in Islam be banned altogether? Or the Aboriginals, some of whose ancestors became Muslims at the hands of Indonesian fishermen before Europeans even arrived?

Quote:

And what about those Muslims, like the Afghans who helped build this country from day one? Or Australains like myself who embrace Islam? Should belief in Islam be banned altogether? Or the Aboriginals, some of whose ancestors became Muslims at the hands of Indonesian fishermen before Europeans even arrived?

Surely you jest?
The Chinese played a far far larger part in the development of this country than any muslim ever did.


Quote:

History of immigration from Afghanistan Source: Museum VictoriaThe first Afghani people to arrive in Australia during the 1860s were cameleers, entering Australia with travelling papers obtained while working in British India. They worked in nearly all areas of transportation including exploration, mining and the supply of provisions to homesteads. Few settled in Victoria: in 1901, the Afghani population included only eight males and no females. With the introduction of cars and trucks into Australia during the 1920s, the Afghan cameleers became redundant. Some returned to Afghanistan, while others became small property owners.

For those of this country who embrace Islam, then they should realise what they are actually getting into.
What happens to those who grow intellectually and decide to change their minds?

Quote:

Aboriginals, some of whose ancestors became Muslims at the hands of Indonesian fishermen before Europeans even arrived?

You can't seriously believe that hokum abu, it is myth making BS.

Quote:

Surely you jest? The Chinese played a far far larger part in the development of this country than any muslim ever did.

Since I didn't compare their contribution to that of the Chinese that's irrelevant. I asked you about whether you think those Australian Muslims, who've been here for generations longer than even many white Australians shouldn't be allowed to be here.

Btw, our north-south railway is called the 'ghan, not the 'nese for a reason. Afghan Cameleers played a very important part in our early history, and were instrumental in many of the early explorer's success. I must admit I don't know much about Chinese contributions to Australian history.


Quote:

For those of this country who embrace Islam, then they should realise what they are actually getting into. What happens to those who grow iintellectually and decide to change their minds?

Since most are grown adults, I think they're aware of what they're embracing. I've never heard of an Australian changing their mind and reverting to disbelief. Not saying it ccan't happen, but it's highly unlikely to, and even if it did, I don't understand it's relation to my questions...

mozzaok wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 7:29pm:

Quote: Aboriginals, some of whose ancestors became Muslims at the hands of Indonesian fishermen before Europeans even arrived? You can't seriously believe that hokum abu, it is myth making BS.

?!

no it ain't man- it's quite real. what makes you think it's bs?

Total Crap.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 7:37pm:

Total Crap.

ummm- cool

Quote:

Since most are grown adults, I think they're aware of what they're embracing. I've never heard of an Australian changing their mind and reverting to disbelief. Not saying it ccan't happen, but it's highly unlikely to, and even if it did, I don't understand it's relation to my questions...

Did I detect a stutter there abu?
Considering it is our law that we are able to change our minds and grow as we see fit, it is a very relevant point.

So what does happen to people who embrace Islam and then decide to turn away from it?
What happens to the children who refuse to embrace it?

Do tell abu...surely you know the quran?

abu you are quite right.
Afghan cameleers were very good in expploring the interior.
They knew camels and that country well.

Hey, one even became Aussies first terriorist !!!
He was educated in the koran, extreme muslim.

mozza,


Quote:

Total Crap.

Well you convinced me mozza, quite a persuasive argument you got there.

amadd,


Quote:

Considering it is our law that we are able to change our minds and grow as we see fit, it is a very relevant point.

So you think Australia should institute laws to prevent people becoming Muslims?


Quote:

So what does happen to people who embrace Islam and then decide to turn away from it?

Weren't we talking about Australian society here?
If you claim Islamic law is somehow barbaric and primitive, then why would you compare Australian law to it and want to 'revert' to the same or a similar ruling?


Quote:

Do tell abu...surely you know the quran?

Well I know it enough to know it doesn't say anything about someone embracing Islam then leaving it. Do you have some evidence it says otherwise?

sprint, fascinating...

Quote:

So you think Australia should institute laws to prevent people becoming Muslims?

Freedom of religion is part of our constitution, however, a religion cannot supercede common laws and legislation in any way.
Islamics from certain nations still consider their religion to be above our law, and it is not.

It is an Islamic teaching that apostates be sentenced to death.
People of these beliefs do not belong here and should not be allowed to enter our shores.

It would be interesting to know how muslims feel about the pending executions. On one hand, Islam allows executions,  so they need to be seen to support it, on the other, they are fellow muslims being put to death so are required to defend them. Where do their loyalties lie?

Quote:

Freedom of religion is part of our constitution, however, a religion cannot supercede common laws and legislation in any way.

And what does this have to do with Muslims? Are you suggesting Muslims could somehow manipulate the legislature and enforce shari'ah law? Get a hold of yourself mate.


Quote:

Islamics from certain nations still consider their religion to be above our law, and it is not.

Firstly I think you should at least familiarise yourself with the terminology you're trying to use. An adherent of Islam is a Muslim, not an 'Islamic'.

Any Muslim who comes to Australia, and swears their oath of allegiance to Australia, and it's head of state, our Queen, and enters into a contract of citizenship with Australia, MUST, by Islamic teaching fulfill that contact and that allegiance. Just sounds like more of the same ignorant scare-mongering arguments.


Quote:

It is an Islamic teaching that apostates be sentenced to death.

It is law under an Islamic Caliphate, it's got nothing to do with being a Muslim in Australia. If an Australian went to live in Saudi Arabia, would Saudi Arabians be right in stating that  Australian shouldn't be there, because in Australia adultery and homosexuality are permissible and polygamy is punishable by prison sentence??? what on earth has it got to do with that Australian living in Saudi Arabia?

This has gotta be your most illogical reason so far.


Quote:

People of these beliefs do not belong here and should not be allowed to enter our shores.

Again, what about Aboriginal Muslims? Gonna deport them are you? Send them back to Indonesia, from where they wandered 40,000 years ago??

Abu - yes. The early muslims were well liked out west.
Kept to themselves, but no troubles, good workers.
Planted date palms in a few areas, unfortunatley they all died I believe.


in 1915 or thereabouts, one muslim went islamic and became aussies first terrorist.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 9:50pm:

Abu - yes. The early muslims were well liked out west. Kept to themselves, but no troubles, good workers. Planted date palms in a few areas, unfortunatley they all died I believe. in 1915 or thereabouts, one muslim went islamic and became aussies first terrorist.

actually they weren't treated particularly well- they weren't really well liked except for the capacity of their abilities.

went islamic? right. what was his name out of curiosity?

gaybriel - satisfied at the complete posting on the islamic forum ??

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 9:58pm:

gaybriel - satisfied at the complete posting on the islamic forum ??

huh? you mean the new topic you posted? yes it was very interesting- I've replied to it :)

Quote:

Any Muslim who comes to Australia, and swears their oath of allegiance to Australia, and it's head of state, our Queen, and enters into a contract of citizenship with Australia, MUST, by Islamic teaching fulfill that contact and that allegiance. Just sounds like more of the same ignorant scare-mongering arguments.

Well then the quran is [mod: read the guidelines] then isn't it?  How could the word of Allah leave such ambiguities?
The quran doesn't state anything about swearing allegiance to another nation as far as I know.
However, it does state that it's OK to deceive the infidel.


Quote:

The famous commentary of Al Khazan (used most extensively in the Mohammedan University called Al Azhar), quotes from Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and others, and gives this interpretation of the verse: "All the deeds of the apostate become null and void in this world and the next. He must be killed. His wife must be separated from him and he has no claims on any inheritance" (page 155, vol. I, Cairo edition). Ath Tha'alibi (788 A.H.), in his commentary on Sura II, verse 214, leaves no doubt that the verse in question, whatever the grammatical construction may be, demands the death of the apostate. (Cf. vol. i, p.167, Algiers edition, 1323). 1 Mizan-ul-Haqq, by Pfander, revised by Tisdall, p.364, London 1910.

Quote:

The quran doesn't state anything about swearing allegiance to another nation as far as I know.

If the Qur'an were the only textual source of Islam, then this statement might actually mean something...


Quote:

However, it does state that it's OK to deceive the infidel

It states no such thing. You couldn't provide any verse to back such a ridiculous claim up, that's why you had to bring some unknown commentary??


Quote:

The famous commentary of Al Khazan (used most extensively in the Mohammedan University called Al Azhar)

Never heard of al Khazan nor his commentary. There's about 2 or 3 main commentaries used in al-Azhar, and none of them is by a fellow named al Khazan.. I tried googling the guy and couldn't find nothing on him. Surely if he's such a famous commentator of the Qur'an, we'd be able to find at least some reference to him??? Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari, Mujahid, Jalalayn etc. are all well known and famous commentaries, if you google them, you'll find them... but al Khazan, can't find a thing, why might that be do you think amadd???

Or is this just evidence you're just cut-pasting nonsense which you've got no idea about?

Amadd wrote on Oct 29^th, 2008 at 8:01pm:

Quote: Since most are grown adults, I think they're aware of what they're embracing. I've never heard of an Australian changing their mind and reverting to disbelief. Not saying it ccan't happen, but it's highly unlikely to, and even if it did, I don't understand it's relation to my questions... Did I detect a stutter there abu? Considering it is our law that we are able to change our minds and grow as we see fit, it is a very relevant point. So what does happen to people who embrace Islam and then decide to turn away from it? What happens to the children who refuse to embrace it?

Amadd,

As i suspect you may be aware already, a lot of these ppl you have described are regarded as apostates.

And as within any social group, when ppl break, or transgress community norms it is often the weakest 'offenders' [the easy targets] which suffer the most.

There is a huge growth in 'honour' killings [of young women] among muslim communities, in Europe, as ISLAMISTS gain influence and power within these communities.

I would suspect that these young [ex] muslim women are targets of the worst of the ISLAMIST violence against apostates, because they are the weakest members of this 'offender' group [and can be readily subjected to the violence of the ISLAMIST influences, within their communities].

And of course, the whole [muslim] community see's these abuses against individuals reported in the media, and these abuses are an effective deterrent for others who may be considering 'leaving' ISLAM.


It is all very sad.

Honour killings are nothing to do with Islam, and this has already been debated several times here. They are strictly forbidden and anyone participating in them is nothing but a cold blooded murderer.

Then again, it would be out of the ordinary if one of your claims actually had fact behind it.

I just noticed that my post was edited because I refered to the quran as a novel..lol..hilarious  ;D

Yes the honour killings are very sad, but what I'm talking about is Islamic Law.

Let's look at this verse and we'll see how it's interpreted in many countries under Islamic law.

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith -
but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Surah 16: 106

"The Muslim world suffers from institutionalised violence against apostates. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran,
Indonesia and Egypt all have laws on the books that punish apostasy with death."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/17/supportingislamsapostates

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMAZR8YIhxI

Here's one featuring everybody's favourite - RIchard Dawkins. He finally gets the admission at the end of the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1b0QKO1rJQ

Also..

The principle of Al-Takeyya The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming
you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Surah 3: 28

According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.

[urlhttp://www.islamreview.com/articles/lyingprint.htm[/url]

I probably should provide you with a couple of references, so here yu go:

----------------------------------------------------------

[1] General Assembly of U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18

[3] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), pp. 49-50, 53.

[4]Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi, The Penal Law of Islam , (Lahore: Kazi Publications, 1979) p. 97.

[5] Abul A‘la Mawdudi, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, Lahore: Islamic Publications, 1963. English translation by Syed Silas Husain & Ernest Hahn, 1994. p, 17.

[6] Rudolph Peters & Gert J.J. De Vries, “Apostasy in Islam”, Die Welt des Islams, Vol. XVII, No. 1-4, 1976-7, pp. 14-18.

[7] ‘Ali, Y., The Holy Qur’an, The Islamic Foundation, UK, 1975, p.1729.

[8]Zwemer, S., The Law of Apostasy in Islam, Marshall Brothers Ltd, UK, 1924, p.34-5.

[9] Gibb, H. and Kramers., Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1974, p.413.

[10]Siddiqi op. cit. p. 97

[11] Abul A‘la Mawdudi, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, Lahore: Islamic Publications, 1963 English translation by Syed Silas Husain & Ernest Hahn, 1994. pp, 18-19.

[12]Zwemer, op. cit. p. 33-4.

[13]Pickthall, op. cit. p. 57, footnote.

[14] ‘Ali, Y, op. cit. p. 207, footnote 606.

[15] S.A. Rahman, Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, pp. 15-17 where he claims Ibn al-‘Arabi, Zamakhshari and al-Baydawi held this view. See also the discussion in Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, pp. 50-51.

[16] Tafsir al-Qurtubi: Classical Commentary on the Holy Qur’an, translated by Aisha Bewley, Vol. 1, London: Dar al-Taqwa, 2003, pp. 659-661.

[17] See S.A. Rahman, Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, Lahore: Institute of Islamic culture,1978, pp.16-25. Rahman on p. 16 declares this verse to be “one of the most important verses of the Qur’an, containing a charter of freedom of conscience unparalleled in the religious annals of mankind . . .”. He goes on to criticise the attempts by Muslim scholars over the ages to narrow its broad humanistic meaning and impose limits on its scope in their attempts to reconcile it with their interpretations of Muhammad’s Sunna.

[18] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 51.

[19] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 52.

and a few more references..

[20] A category of defining hadith according to the reliability of their transmitters. A weak hadith is not to be rejected outright, but one must find whether the transmitter’s traditions are supported elsewhere.

[21] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 52.

[22] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), pp. 51-52.

[23] Quoted in Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqi, The Penal Law of Islam , (Lahore: Kazi Publications, 1979) p. 103-4.

[24]Quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.50

[25] See Appendix A. Al-Hedaya, Vol. II, (Hanafi Manual).

[26] The Hedaya: Commentary on the Islamic Laws, Vol. II, Book IX, Chapter IX, p. 225.

[27]The Hedaya: Commentary on the Islamic Laws Vol. II translated by Charles Hamilton (New Delhi: Nusratali Nasri for Kitab Bhavan, reprinted 1985) p. 225

[28]Ibid. pp. 225-6

[29]Ibid. p.227

[30]Ibid. p.227

[31]Ibid. p.245

[32]The Hedaya, op. cit. p. 246, Siddiqi, op. cit, p. 110

[33]The Hedaya, op. cit. p. 228

[34]Ibid. p.22

[35]Ibid. p.231

[36]Ibid. p.232

[37]Ibid. p.232

[38]Ibid. p.232

[39]Ibid. p.235-6

[40]Ibid. p.236

[41]Ibid. p.238

[42]Ibid. p.239, 244-5

[43] See Appendix B, Al-Risala (Maliki Manual).

[44]F.H. Ruxton `Convert`s Status in Maliki Law`, Moslim World, Vol. iii, p. 38 quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.42

[45] www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/15721et3.htm," target="_blank">[Link] 21/06/2002

[46]F.H. Ruxton op. cit. quoted in Zwemer p. 43

[47] Nawawi, `Minhaj-at-Talibin` , quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.49

[48] Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual O Islamic Sacred Law, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Beltsville, Maryland: amana publications, new edition, 1997, pp. 595-596.

[49]Quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.47-50

[50]Quoted in Zwemer op. cit. p.47-50

[51] Anwar Ahmad Qadri, A Sunnin Shafi‘i Law Code, Lahore: SH. Muhammad Ashraf, 1984, p. 123.

[52]Joseph Schacht, An introduction to Islamic Law, (London: Oxford University Press, 1964), p.16

[53]A. Querry, `Recueil de Lois concernant Les Musulmans Schyites, Vol. ii, quoted in Zwemer op.cit. p.51

[54]Abdul Hameed Abu Sulayman , “Al-dhimmah and Related Concepts in Historical Perspective”, Journal Institute of Muslim Minority Affairs, Vol. 9 No. 1 (January 1988), pp. 18-19

[55] Mahmassani, S., Arkan huquq al-insan, Dar al-`ilm li`l-malayin, Beirut, 1979, p. 123-124, ref. in Mayer op. cit. p.170

[56]Zwemer op. cit. p.35

[57] Sunday Programme, BBC Radio 4, 12 May 1991.

[58] Abul A‘la Mawdudi, The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law, Lahore: Islamic Publications, 1963 English translation by Syed Silas Husain & Ernest Hahn, 1994. pp, 46-49.

[59]Abdurahman Abdulkadir Kurdi, The Islamic State: A Study based on the Islamic Holy Constitution, (London: Mansell Publishing Limited, 1984) p. 52-53

[60]Siddiqi op. cit. pp. 108-9

[61] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), p. 53.

[62] Mohamed S. El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law: A Contemporary Study, (Plainfield: American Trust Publications, 2000), pp. 54-64.

[63] Sheikh Muhammad Abu Zahra, “Punishment in Islam”, in D.F. Green, ed., Arab Theologians on Jews and Israel: Extracts from the Proceedings of the Fourth Conference of the Academy of Islamic Research, pp. 71-72

[64] “Source of the Punishment for Apostasy”, [Link] style="text-decoration: none;">[Link] viewed 10 August 2005.

[65] Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Islamic Awakening Between Rejection and Extremism, p. 45.

[66] Zaki Badawi, “Freedom of Religion in Islam”, unpublished paper presented 10 January 2003.

[67] Zaki Badawi, “Freedom of Religion in Islam”, 10 January 2003.

[68] Zaki Badawi, “Freedom of Religion in Islam”, 10 January 2003.

[69]Gibb, H., and Kramer, J., Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, (Leiden: E.J. Brill, 1974), article on ``Murtadd` by W. Heffening p.413; but see Siddiqi op. cit. p.109 where he states: "There is almost complete consensus of opinion among the jurists that apostasy from Islam (Irtidad) must be punished by death."

amadd, I think you're mistaken here. I don't doubt your ability to cut and paste, that's not contested. So please spare us more rubbish cut and pastes.  All I want you to do is just show me who al Khazan is please?? For a start.

Really abu..

Haven't I provided you with enough proof of the penalty for apostacy under Islamic law?
There's plenty of information on it. Seek and ye shall find.

Don't say that I'm mistaken, say that Islamic law is mistaken.

more..

islamic teaching on the consequences of apostasy from islam introduction
.

The right to religious freedom, including the right of individuals to change their religion, is taken for granted by most people in the West. However, in Islam[1] all schools of law (madhhahib) agree that adult male apostates from Islam should be killed.
The majority of Muslim jurists claim that apostasy from Islam is a crime carrying the God-prescribed penalty of death.
Therefore, while conversion from other religions to Islam is welcomed and actively encouraged, Muslims who leave
Islam for any other religion must be sentenced to death (unless they repent and return to Islam).[2]

According to criminal law in the Islamic legal system (Shari‘ah), the state must impose mandatory punishments (hudud, singular hadd) for certain specific crimes which are claimed to be committed against God and his rights, and apostasy (rida, irtidad) is often included in this list. These crimes make up a separate category in Shari‘ah criminal law as they are the only ones to have divinely mandated obligatory prescribed punishments which cannot be changed in any way by humans.
Apostasy is thus viewed as a very severe crime for which God himself has prescribed the death penalty.

The death penalty for converts from Islam has nevertheless generated much debate since references
to apostasy in the Qur’an, the primary source of Islamic law, are rather ambiguous.
The hadith (the authoritative traditions recording the sayings and deeds of Muhammad) are therefore the main source used to justify the Shari‘ah punishment of death for apostates.

As for Al Khazan..I have no idea. As far as I can see, it's a place in Saudi Arabia, probably named after some joker of Islamic significance.
The important part is what is taught at (as far as I can see) the most prestigious Islamic university in the world.

Now a question for you abu...

How can the quran be a book of truth when it is deciphered so differently?
..and the same can be asked of the bible.

you have lost yet again Abu.

you have provided no quotes to show your case, against which Amadd has provided MANY and examples.

the koran demands murder

sprint,

Lost what? My marbles for even bothering to participate in such an amateur discussion?


Quote:

you have provided no quotes to show your case, against which Amadd has provided MANY and examples.

Just quoting stuff doesn't win you the debate, especially if it turns out what you quoted is fabricated, or the person doesn't even exist.


Quote:

the koran demands murder

It demands capital punishment, as does the Bible. And?

amadd,


Quote:

Haven't I provided you with enough proof of the penalty for apostacy under Islamic law?

Why would you need to provide me with proof, where did I say it's not the punishment for apostasy?

Your whole cut and paste debate was against some perceived opposition to this point, yet nowhere did I state it's wrong. I merely asked who al-Khazan is supposed to be, since you claimed he's the commentator of the Qur'an as used by al-Azhar. I found it strange, as I've never heard of him, and I'd consider I know all of the major commentators of the Qur'an.

Abu, if you are not satisfied with the examples I've provided, then I could bring up 101 more.
However, since you agree, there's no need.

The point I'm making is that this ridiculous apostacy law is widespread throughout Islam and I don't want people with this attitude entering our country.
As well,  it's common for muslims to take allegiance with their muslim brothers of different nations over and above the allegiance that they swear to their chosen nation. Do you know anything about this strange phenomenon abu?
This is the reason that I don't trust Indonesia to carry out the execution of the Bali bombers. They were practically treated like royalty by their "muslim brother" prison gaurds.
I want to watch the executions, and I want DNA samples taken.



Quote:

It demands capital punishment, as does the Bible. And?

Capital punishment for what? For changing religion?
I'm not sure in what context the bible demands capital punishment, however, the bible is not our law.
If there were enough muslims over here to demand that our legal system recognise Islamic law, then it would no doubt happen. You can't deny that there is an Islamic desire for world domination. I say keep them out!

The Bible demands capital punishment for a wide range of crimes. Including most of those that Islam does. Do you think Jews should be booted out too?

After all, they have Halachic law, which is equivalent to, and in most cases the same as, Shari'ah law.

The US also has capital punishment, should Americans not be allowed in too?

What you fail to realise is that when someone becomes a citizen of Australia, they recognise the law of other countries is not the law here, and they generally agree to adopt and abide by it. There will always be law-breakers from all different backgrounds, and they will be dealt with by the law, but to suggest people of a certain religion shouldn't be allowed to come to Australia is just ridiculous, you're a xenophobic bigot plain and simple. Also as I asked, the 'boot em out' solution doesn't deal with Aboriginal or Anglo Australians who convert, what's your solution for us? The Aboriginals walk back to Indonesia (as they came 40,000 years ago) and the Anglos get herded into boats and shipped back to Britain?

Amadd- is what you have an issue with a) the punishment itself or b) that religious punishments have been enshrined in law and are actually being implemented in some countries?

or both?

because as abu has pointed out many religions carry the same punishments- so it is just that they have not made this a matter of social law?

xenophobic? Please explain?


Quote:

What you fail to realise is that when someone becomes a citizen of Australia, they recognise the law of other countries is not the law here, and they generally agree to adopt and abide by it.

What you fail to admit is that the boundaries of our freedoms are being sacrificed to accomodate our muslim friends.
Many muslims aren't accepting of our laws. They don't even denounce the actions of their terrorist "brothers." A lot of them even support it.
And as far as you're concerned, you seem to not be able to distinguish between the crimes of the Bali bombers and the Bali nine from a moral standpoint.

Warning warning warning - diversionary tactics used.



gaybrielapologetic - christianity is not a legal/policing/army/justice/political system , jews do not have the goal of ruling the world.

Quote:

Many muslims aren't accepting of our laws.

For example?


Quote:

They don't even denounce the actions of their terrorist "brothers." A lot of them even support it.

Over 75% of people on this forum don't even think people rejoicing in the killing of civilians in armed conflicts should be banned.... What a joke, most Aussie seems to not only support terrorism they rejoice when it actually gets civilians.. so long as it's Muslims who are the targets.


Quote:

And as far as you're concerned, you seem to not be able to distinguish between the crimes of the Bali bombers and the Bali nine from a moral standpoint.

I don't believe I've ever discussed the Bali nine on this forum... so I don't know where you pulled that one from..

Abu - muslims aren't accepting of our laws.
They want to change our laws to suit their beliefs.


that was not terrorism - you have lost on this one already.


tell us the difference between the bali bombers and the bali nine.

No Abu, you didn't mention the Bali 9, but somebody of your ilk came up with a ridiculous analogy about them.
I would be interested to hear your views if you were capable of answering a question.

The fact of the matter is that we are now expected to kowtow to a foreigner's way of life at Christmas, in our schools, at restaurants, cafes, at work, at public pools..etc.
Enough is enough...go home!

It's a massive mistake to let devout muslims in here hoping that they will assimilate into our society.
They consider themselves to be of a higher order, and they will propogate their delusions throughout the generations.

If it's not our country and our way of life that these muslims are so attracted to, then what is it?
Is it money? Is it that we don't have (many) radical maniacal terrorists here and it's a safer place to live?
Or maybe it's an idealism to spread Islam throughout the entire world?
Whatever the reason, it sure isn't that they like our laws and way of life, they should go home!


Some snippets from a couple of articles with the links below:

"Most people in the West believe that Islam is a religion in the traditional sense of the word. However,
this is a fateful misconception. Islam is not just a religion. It is much more than a religion.
Muslims themselves describe their faith by saying, Islam is a Complete Way of Life..."

"Islam claims to have a divine mandate over everyone, and this includes non-Muslims too. While non-Muslims
may not be required to observe the religious rituals of Islam, they must recognize the supremacy of Islamic
rule over them...."


http://www.muhammadanism.org/government/government_sharia_ideology.htm


"A quick look at Muslims overtaking and destroying their host countries can be found in France, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Sweden and the United Kingdom."

"In the past few weeks, parliamentary law in London sucked up to and now allows certain vestiges of  Sharia Law to manifest in UK."

“According to recent news reports, a new network of Sharia courts in a half-dozen major cities in the U.K. have been empowered under British law to adjudicate a wide variety of legal cases ranging from divorces and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence.”

“This is a case where truth is truly stranger than fiction,” said Tancredo. “Today the British people are learning a hard lesson about the consequences of massive, unrestricted immigration.”


"....The poll found that some 40 percent of Muslim students in the United Kingdom support the ntroduction of Sharia law there, and 33 percent support the imposition of an Islamic Sharia-based government worldwide,” the release reported. "

"Tancredo’s bill, dubbed the “Jihad Prevention Act,” would bar the entry of foreign nationals who advocate Sharia law. In addition, the legislation would make the advocacy of Sharia law by radical Muslims already in the United States a deportable offense." ....Amen to that!

http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty400.htm

And now a word from the British prime minister....what a joke!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sSHcTCKymdE

Quote:

No Abu, you didn't mention the Bali 9, but somebody of your ilk came up with a ridiculous analogy about them.

Well if someone of my 'ilk' said it, that's tantamount to me saying anyway.


Quote:

The fact of the matter is that we are now expected to kowtow to a foreigner's way of life at Christmas, in our schools, at restaurants, cafes, at work, at public pools..etc. Enough is enough...go home!

This is my home, and has been for my family probably longer than yours. Where do you suggest home is? My home is right here. If anyone should be leaving, it should be xenophobic bigots like you, whose views are contrary to Australia's anti-discrimination laws.

I didn't ask anyone to kowtow to me, and neither do most Muslims. Things like halal food and teaching about ramadan etc. are usually incentives undertaken by decent non-Muslim Australians who either like to reach out and understand their fellow Australains, or realise there's a tidy profit to be made, unlike bigots such as yourself, who really have no place in our society with your extremist and hate-filled views.

Quote:

Well if someone of my 'ilk' said it, that's tantamount to me saying anyway.

Yes I suppose if it was a muslim brother, then you must consider yourselves to be all the same.
So then a personal opinion would be irrelevant would it?
Or do you have a personal opinion that you would like to share?


Quote:

This is my home, and has been for my family probably longer than yours

If you read my statement again, you'll realise that I was talking about foreigners who want us to change our ways to suit them.
However, if you don't like the laws here, then maybe there is a more suitable country for you elsewhere.


Quote:

..unlike bigots such as yourself, who really have no place in our society with your extremist and hate-filled views.

Oh I'm sorry that I hold the values of this country very dear to me.
I don't like it being tampered with by some backwards goat herding excuse for a religion.
As much as you like to ignore the facts, it is the goal of Islam to rule the world with the promise of death if necessary.

Gaybriel said:

Quote:

Amadd- is what you have an issue with a) the punishment itself or b) that religious punishments have been enshrined in law and are actually being implemented in some countries? or both?

Both, including the reason and severity of the punishment.

I couldn't care less what the actual religion is or what they worship. It's their actoins that matter.
The fact is, Islam is not peaceful. Devil worshippers are more peaceful than Islam.

"THE mother of two of the Bali bombers on death row says her sons were right to "kill infidels", as they prepare to face firing squads over the attacks which killed 202 people.

Seventy-year-old Tariem spoke today in her house in the village of Tenggulun, East Java, after working all day in her fields and visiting the mosque.

"I don't cry. I leave it all to God," she said as convicted terrorists Amrozi and Mukhlas, two of her 13 children, waited for the firing squad in a prison on the other side of Java.

"I feel that killing infidels isn't a mistake because they don't pray," she said as she sat on the stone floor of the family home surrounded by Amrozi's children and wife.

"My sons are right. I wake up at 2.00am every morning to pray for their safety."

The old woman coughed and asked for medicine as she spoke, and appeared confused about her sons' fate, asking: "Will my sons be executed?"

None of the bombers' relatives here expressed regret for the carnage unleashed on October 12, 2002, when bombs tore through packed tourist nightspots on the resort island of Bali.

More than 160 foreign holidaymakers including 88 Australians were killed in the blasts, one of the worst terror atrocities in the name of Islam since the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States.

Another son, Ali Imron, is serving a life sentence for his role in the plot.

"As prayer leaders my sons would lead prayers at the mosque but they don't do that anymore. I miss that," Tariem said.

"I want my sons to be safe and for them not to be executed."

Authorities have said Amrozi, 47, Mukhlas, 48, and Bali ringleader Imam Samudra, 38, will be executed by firing squad any time from midnight today to mid-November. The family should be notified three days in advance.

Younger brother Ali Fauzi, 38, said the family had made no plans for funerals and had not been informed about the executions, adding he was sure Amrozi and Mukhlas were on the "right path" in their final days.

"I met both of them last month and they told me, 'don't be sad'. They always look so happy and I'm sure they're fighting on the right path," he said.

Looking relaxed and beaming broadly like his older brother Amrozi, known as the "smiling assassin" for the grin he sported throughout his trial, Fauzi said the family had nothing to be ashamed about.

"Do we feel embarrassed or ashamed of what they have done? No, we feel proud because in this world full of lies and accusations there are still people who are ready to fight against that," he said.
"If they're executed we'll bring them back home and conduct prayers. Then we'll bury them at a site which we can't tell you about.

"We don't want any autopsy because although the soul is no longer there, the body can still feel pain."

Neighbours in the village expressed little sympathy for Amrozi and Mukhlas.

"They should be executed because all of us should be peaceful toward one another," said Sulastri, a neighbour.

Village chief Djarum said losing any of his neighbours was like losing one of his own family, but he did not support the bombings.

"I'm sad but I'm not proud of what they did because Islam is a peaceful religion," he said.

Shop-owner Mahfud Hasan said he had known Amrozi since they were children.

"I didn't believe it until I saw him confess on TV and I was so shocked," he said.

Students at the Islamic school where Fauzi teaches Koranic studies said they were banned from reading newspapers or watching television.

But they were hungry for news.

"I feel sad that they're being executed because they're Muslims like me, so I sympathise with them," said 20-year-old student Mohammad. "



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24584550-12377,00.html


Amadd - yep, satanists would not do this.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 31^st, 2008 at 4:20pm:

[quote] Where do you suggest home is?

Where your heart is.


And your heart, as a good Hizb ul Tahrir operative, is set on the restoration of the caliphate and living under sharia.

You should follow Mohammed's example and do a hijrah - flee from among the infidels to the lands of the muslims.
Your ancestors lived in ignorance of Islam. Do not hide behind them now.


I can really see you in Iran. You could still be a minority, as a sunni, but at least you would have Muslim thocracy. Or Araby, where you could work for the liberation of the land from American and puppet Saud influence. The fruits of your eeffortss there woul bee so much more plentiful andd actuaally within much more realistic reach.

Here in Oz you're just wasting your life arguing on internet forums. This is a very cushy jihad you foundd for yourself. You should strive in Allah's way a bit more strenuously. Not to mention your children. Don't you want them a better life than grwoing up among the infidels when they could grow up among wall-to-wall muslims? I think you owe it to them, even if you need to give up some of your comforts.i

Quote:

If you read my statement again, you'll realise that I was talking about foreigners who want us to change our ways to suit them.

A very large % of Muslims in Australia are born here. Why do you consider them foreign? Because they have a different religion to the mainstream? Aren't you an atheist anyway? You really don't make a lot of sense, unless we consider you're just a xenophobe.

If someone migrates to Australia and takes out citzenship aren't they an Australian? Or do they always remain a 'foreigner' in your eyes? 'legal aliens'? And then you wonder why they don't feel a part of Australia, no wonder with such attitudes like yours 'welcoming' them. you're really a disgrace to Australia.


Quote:

However, if you don't like the laws here, then maybe there is a more suitable country for you elsewhere.

Does that go for greenies as well? And for socialists? and for anarchists? And for gun lobbyists? And for anyone else who seeks to assert their democratic rights? Or are such restrictions only applicable to Muslims? Again, you are a disgrace and you stand in opposition to everything I grew up knowing about my country. I really can't fathom how you can claim you're sticking up or Australia, whenever word you type just completely contradicts the foundations that Australian society is built upon.

Like with our freedom and our security, our sense of compassion, tolerance and community spirit is fast going out the window. All in the name of fighting the imaginary 'war on terror'. People like you, seek to use propagandous myths to erode the fabric of Australian society, and then claim you are it's protector and harbinger.


Quote:

Oh I'm sorry that I hold the values of this country very dear to me.

Either you don't understand them, or you're not being honest here. What you seem to be standing for are not Australian values. They are xenophobic and totalitarian values, funnily enough, the same thing you accuse Islam of.


Quote:

I don't like it being tampered with by some backwards goat herding excuse for a religion

Bravo, nice way to speak about the religion of some of your fellow Australians. It's quite obvious you're only interested in hostility and division. You claim to believe in Australian values, but iot's quite obvious from statements like this you do not. Australian values include a fair go, they include egalitarianism, they include freedom of religion, they include the democratic process. Yet with your post you wiped most of them out in one shot.


Quote:

As much as you like to ignore the facts, it is the goal of Islam to rule the world with the promise of death if necessary.

Islam can't even run it's own countries let alone take over the world. You've really let Bush and co. urinate in your ear a little too much. Islam does seek to see all humans become Muslims, as do Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and probably hundreds more religions. So what? Does that mean when the JW's bash on my door this Sunday morning, I should get up and tell them to get out of Australia, because I don't want religions here that believe in spreading themselves?

Quote:

You should follow Mohammed's example and do a hijrah - flee from among the infidels to the lands of the muslims.

If you actually knew Islamic history, you'd know the first hijrah was to a Christian land, Abyssinia. There was no hijrah to an Islamic society, until an Islamic society actually existed.


Quote:

Here in Oz you're just wasting your life arguing on internet forums. This is a very cushy jihad you foundd for yourself. You should strive in Allah's way a bit more strenuously.

Many of the first Muslims remained in Makkah even after the Islamic society in Madinah was established. There's nothing wrong in remaining in your ancestral land if you became a Muslim. Unless it became extremely oppressive, and you were forced to move. Is that what you'd like to do with Muslims?

Soren, this is the land of my ancestors, and you've already admitted it is not of yours. So I don't see why you're lecturing me on where I should be. You are the one who should return back to whence you came.

This is my home and I intend to stay, so if you wanna waste your time suggesting I should leave, I think you'd better be on your bike, as you're a newcomer, and don't really have that kind of a right over me. Kind of like me telling an Aboriginal to leave... what a joke.

abu - very immature of you to ignore me.

tried burying your head in the sand too??

What about ignoring questions, or diverting, threatening or deleting ??


I'm so glad you are not a christian

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 12:02am:

[quote]A very large % of Muslims in Australia are born here.

it's 90% fyi

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 12:14am:

abu - very immature of you to ignore me. tried burying your head in the sand too?? What about ignoring questions, or diverting, threatening or deleting ?? I'm so glad you are not a christian

sprint I have warned you numerous times to stop bringing up grievances and predicting people's responses

if you need to take a breather then do so but this antagonistic attitude is inappropriate and in no way constructive

gaybriel - there are about 2% muslims in aussie by population.

we have closed the door on any more coming in. The only growth is through the spawn of existing ones and the ensuing brainwashing,

there is nothing to construct with muslims.
Unless you are ok with submitting to islam

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 12:44am:

gaybriel - there are about 2% muslims in aussie by population.

yes- and?


Quote:

we have closed the door on any more coming in.

no we haven't

so to say 90% of them are born here is highly deceptive.
By %age, there are very few here.


yes we have.
The govt. is not fools, even the ALPers.
They are updated on the effects of muslims in a nonmuslim society and the wave against multiculturalism.
immigrants have/are being cut.
who would you prefer - those who assimilate, or those who bring in islamics ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 1:17am:

so to say 90% of them are born here is highly deceptive. By %age, there are very few here.

no it isn't. muslims comprise two percent of the population, of that two percent, 90% of them are australian born.

there's nothing deceptive about that, it's just statistics.



Quote:

we have. The govt. is not fools, even the ALPers. They are updated on the effects of muslims in a nonmuslim society and the wave against multiculturalism. immigrants have/are being cut. who would you prefer - those who assimilate, or those who bring in islamics ?

show me something from the govt saying they've put a moratorium on muslim immigration

course it is deceptive.
Deception is not strictly lying.
90% sounds huge.  1.8% is insignificant.


hah - you think the govt "says" all their "guidelines  ?"

show me something that proves you can read between the lines

sprint,


Quote:

I'm so glad you are not a christian

Nowhere near as glad as I am.
I'd hate to think how I'd meet my Lord on the day of judgement calling him one of three and claiming he was a 2000 year old Jewish dude who got nailed to a stake.


Quote:

abu - very immature of you to ignore me.

This coming from Mr. Maturity himself...

Why don't you resort to your usual tantrums and post:

"very immature of you to ignore me!! very immature of you to ignore me!!"
"very immature of you to ignore me!! very immature of you to ignore me!!"
"very immature of you to ignore me!! very immature of you to ignore me!!"

;D


Quote:

The only growth is through the spawn of existing ones and the ensuing brainwashing,

Since our birth rate is much higher than non-Muslims, that's all we need :)


Quote:

so to say 90% of them are born here is highly deceptive. By %age, there are very few here. 90% sounds huge.  1.8% is insignificant.

I can't believe you said this, are you normal?
who is "THEM" in your sentence? Muslim Australians right?
90% of THEM are born here... You don't say 1.8%  ;D
The only thing deceptive is you masquerading as a normal participant in this discussion.
If you don't even have the basic math skills to work this kind of stuff out, then one really has to question whether you have the basic intellect to even understand the ramifications of your posts...

Gaybriel,


Quote:

it's 90% fyi

Wow, thanks, I knew it was high, but didn't know it was that much.

I think this is why Australian society is so alarmed with Islam. Because Muslims are now largely born and raised here, and rather than discarding their religion and falling into the vices of society like drinking, gambling, open sex etc. they're actually becoming stronger in it. Especiallty the Christians like sprint, who thought the Muslims would be easy pickings for conversion. I always laugh when JW's or Mormons come over and find out I'm Muslim and think they're gonna win debates because I don't speak English well. I remember back when I lived in Lakemba, they came to my door once, and when they saw I had some Islamic books on my bookshelf they introduced one of their group as speaking Arabic, when I told them I didn't speak Arabic as I was a convert from Christianity, they lost all hope, poor guys  ;D


Quote:

no it isn't. muslims comprise two percent of the population, of that two percent, 90% of them are australian born. there's nothing deceptive about that, it's just statistics.

Sprint sometimes takes a little time to get stuff like this. But normally after going away and thinking about it for a bit he usually understands, but you won't notice, as he'll just move to the next topic and pretend this one didn't exist now :)


Quote:

show me something that proves you can read between the lines

Perhaps he thinks they hand out certificates in 'reading between the lines'?  ;D

Quote:

it's 90% fyi

I think that figure is total rubbish anyway.

The 2001 census shows that 36% of muslims are Australian born.
That would mean quite a large jump in this figure between 2001 and 2008.

However, considering that the children of muslim parents don't have the (Australian given) choice of deciding their religion, or if they want to follow a religion at all, I would expect that the figure to rise as more and more innocent kiddies get brainwashed and beaten into submission.

...they'll then be bound forevermore to follow Islam through fear of persecution.
Quite a good system you have there  ;D

If you really believed that Amadd, then I don't think you'd be so worried about Islam. Because you'd know after a generation or two, it'd be completely gone, as nobody raised begrudgingly in a religion (as you claim) would go on to propagate the same religion to their kids. As happened with Christianity, as soon as the 'shackles were off' so to speak. Islam's actually the opposite it's become stronger as Muslims have come here.

On the contrary, you're worried BECAUSE of the growth of Islam that's occured amongst the youth born here. And most of the Islamic movements/centres here are attended and even run by youth, and by Muslims actually born here. And when visiting those centres, I've found most of the stories are of kids who grew up in fairly irreligious households, and who became stronger and more practising in Islam not because of family pressures, but often against it. The older generations, born overseas, are generally the more secular ones, whilst the youth are the opposite. And this is precisely what worries non-Muslims, that Islam is not just some dying decaying relic from the past, but a vibrant part of peoples lives, that is thriving.

Regarding the article Sprint posted:

It's the lack of remorse that disgusts me almost as much as the heinous evil acts that were perpitrated in the name of a religion.

The lack of denouncement in the Islamic world for these subhuman crimes is also a disgrace.
Yes they did act in the name of Islam. There is no running, hiding, or distancing one's self from it.
Muslims are all brothers and sisters. They need to take some responsibility themselves, and not blame it on God.

In any sane religion, there would be no question that these murderers are totally insane. But in Islam, we see apologists for their actions.
And those who disagree with their actions, mostly still agree that they are their brothers. The entire religion makes a mockery of itself.

Just maybe, the entire Islamic religion should be up for review and develop itself to close a few of the loopholes that enable these types of actions to take place with the support of their brothers and sisters.

"Peace is Islam", but if, and only if, the entire world succumbs to their fascist regime.

I'm waiting with baited breath for the news that Amrozi scum & Co. have been wiped from this earth. It's a pity that they'll die a respectful death in the eyes of the blind.

I'll be ROTFLMAO at them.

Quote:

..as nobody raised begrudgingly in a religion (as you claim) would go on to propagate the same religion to their kids. As happened with Christianity, as soon as the 'shackles were off' so to speak. Islam's actually the opposite it's become stronger as Muslims have come here.

Of course when the kids become parents themselves, many are still under the same psychological or physical control. Hence, their kids are also raised with the same dogma and the vicious cycle of ignorance continues.

I'm not surprised at all that young men in particular are attracted to Islam. It provides an outlet for their anger. It provides them an enemy.
This is a little concerning, yes.

Christianity has become less restrictive and more in line with 21st century thinking and has probably lost a few practising members.
However, rationalism is also a growing school of thought.
You'll find that most rationalists consider the teachings of the bible to make much more sense than Sharia law.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 12:10am:

Quote: You should follow Mohammed's example and do a hijrah - flee from among the infidels to the lands of the muslims. If you actually knew Islamic history, you'd know the first hijrah was to a Christian land, Abyssinia. There was no hijrah to an Islamic society, until an Islamic society actually existed.

Didn't stay Christian long...


Quote:

Here in Oz you're just wasting your life arguing on internet forums. This is a very cushy jihad you foundd for yourself. You should strive in Allah's way a bit more strenuously.

Quote:

Many of the first Muslims remained in Makkah even after the Islamic society in Madinah was established. There's nothing wrong in remaining in your ancestral land if you became a Muslim. Unless it became extremely oppressive, and you were forced to move. Is that what you'd like to do with Muslims?

Muslims can stay as long as they abide by the fact that this is not a land that welcomes agitators for theocracy. As long as they accept that there no tolerance for their calls for hegemony. Private worship - go ahead. Political agitation for theocracy - you will be opposed, resisteed, ridiculed and disrepected with the full vigour of free-born people.


Quote:

Soren, this is the land of my ancestors, and you've already admitted it is not of yours. So I don't see why you're lecturing me on where I should be. You are the one who should return back to whence you came.

So why did you turn your back on the civilisation of your ancestors? They obviously didn't mean THAt much to you. Yet now you hide behind them, now you cover yourself with their honour which you have rejected.
Come on, be a man, not a fork-tongued, oily dissembler. At least honour what you have chosen over your ancestors and don't now hide behind  the ancestors you have already rejected. I would not want you to be my side when the going gets tought, that's for sure, you inconstant Hizb ul tahrir cadre.


Quote:

This is my home and I intend to stay, so if you wanna waste your time suggesting I should leave, I think you'd better be on your bike, as you're a newcomer, and don't really have that kind of a right over me. Kind of like me telling an Aboriginal to leave... what a joke.

I know you intend to stay because it is too comfortable. but you have no intention of honouring it. That just shows your character in stark relief. Your arse is too comfortable, you are shouting from your sofa, you are a laptop jihadist.

You have turned your back on every cultural, civilisational aspect of of this place that actually made you. It tolerates you despite yourself - and do not have any illusions beyond that.
You want this place destroyed and transforned from the way it is and you want to supplant something alien, primitive, viciuous and barbaric in its place. Not even your 10 generations give you a right to advocate that unchallenged, unridiculed, unmasked; not even from a newcomer like me.

You politics is bad news for this country, your religion's political aspirations and goals are bad news for the world. How long your ancestors have been here is totally irrelevant to THAT.

That despite many generations of ancestors here, your soul still stirs to the call of barbarity and answers its command to submit is testimony the utter irrelevance of these very generations IN YOUR CASE.

Hey soren, you posted that twice, but it was worth repeating....  :)

Quote:

Didn't stay Christian long...

Didn't it? Do tell...


Quote:

Muslims can stay as long as they abide by the fact that this is not a land that welcomes agitators for theocracy.

I don't remember anything written in Australian law that forbids belief in theocracy, communism, anarchism, rastafarianism... Making up your own laws now? Please, don't come to our country and try to enforce your laws and ideas upon Australians.


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So why did you turn your back on the civilisation of your ancestors?

That's got nothing to do with my connection to this land. Completely irrelevant.


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Yet now you hide behind them, now you cover yourself with their honour which you have rejected.

didn't hide behind anyone. Just made a point that you've come to my country and are trying to dictate to me what to believe. You've got no right, go back to whence you came. You are effectively doing what you falsely accuse Muslims of doing. You want to dictate what religion I can and cannot believe in, in my own country, when you're a foreigner coming to it. Please, if you don't like what religion some Australians believe in, then don't come here. Go home.


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I know you intend to stay because it is too comfortable

I'm supposed to get up and leave my home, just so I don't feel comfortable? Are you normal?


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but you have no intention of honouring it.

Of honouring what? Australia is a multi-racial and multi-religious country where freedom of religion is valued. If you don't like our values, as I said, feel free to go back to your own country.


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You have turned your back on every cultural, civilisational aspect of of this place that actually made you.

Australia's culture is multi-cultural and there's no official state religion, Australians are free to adopt whatever religion they like, including Islam. Please learn a little more about our culture, society and law. You accuse Islam of being totalitarian and intolerant of other beliefs, yet this is in fact your own modus operandi.


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You want this place destroyed and transforned..

You want a truth pill.


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You politics is bad news for this country

Since I'm not politically active at all, this statement is just moot. Even if I were, this is a democratic society, all members of society are permitted to air and promote their own views. If it's accepted by the majority, it'll float, if not, it'll sink. If you serious want to be an Australian, I suggest you realise this fact about how our political system works. Attempting to deny or suppress any sector of society their right to air and promote their views (that don't break any laws) is not permitted in Australian society. Again learn this, or go home.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 5:47am:

sprint, Quote: I'm so glad you are not a christian Nowhere near as glad as I am. I'd hate to think how I'd meet my Lord on the day of judgement calling him one of three and claiming he was a 2000 year old Jewish dude who got nailed to a stake.

One in three - that is the only differentiation you can think of? The trinity as three separete things - a misunderstanding by every muslim, starting with big chief M. Islam is almost built on this misunderstanding by big chielf M.


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The only growth is through the spawn of existing ones and the ensuing brainwashing,

[quote]Since our birth rate is much higher than non-Muslims, that's all we need :)[/quotee]

That does not reflect as well on the power of your case for Islam as you might think. And of course islam is powerless in the face of modernity. it resorts to terrorism because it has no other arguments. The population explosion of muslims is really an explosion in the number of current and future apostates, painful to convey though it may be.

The odd, sad pasty faced white guy with fantasies of political supremacy converting to Islam is not a significant counterbalance to the thousands, millions of muslims who can't wait to get to a place where the mullahs have no hold of them.
"unite to re-primitivise the world!" - i don't think it has as wide an appeal as hizb propaganda would like us to belivee.


Yes, islam has been declining for 500 years - but NOW it's on the rise!! Yes, right. It takes more than the weight of numbers to prevail.

Abu, you may speak of freedom of religion, however, the difference is, that Islam encompasses not only private worship, but also the word of the quran as being law which every muslim should live by.
Islam is spoken of as not only a religion, but also as a nation.
The vast majority of this nation do not respect the laws of Islam in the least. Personally, I find it repulsive.

Unfortunately, sedition laws have been introduced here, and I believe that this is primarily due to the inept religion of Islam.
It is not possible for a true muslim to fully adhere to their religion without also aspiring to enforce their dogma. This is how the quran seems to be interpreted and this what every devout muslim will no doubt aspire to.

Every country has it's laws, and total freedom means anarchy. We are not an anarchist country, we have thrived on prevailing commonsense.
It's just commonsense to me that Islam should be governed very strictly.

As far as telling soren to go home, well, home is where the heart is.

oh dear... now who's twisted themselves into another knot?


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Australia's culture is multi-cultural and there's no official state religion, Australians are free to adopt whatever religion they like, including Islam. Please learn a little more about our culture, society and law. You accuse Islam of being totalitarian and intolerant of other beliefs, yet this is in fact your own modus operandi.

Well no it's not for starters.  As a Nation Australia has a national culture like all other nations.  One recognised by other nations.  Unlike Islamic states there is no official religion.  Yet like most western nations it's society and laws are based on Christian beliefs.

Seems to me someone is starting to confuse religion with culture.  Well that's understandable for a Muslim as Islam is not just a religion it is a way of life.  Whereas most religions are only a part of a culture.

If we have freedom of religion and islamic states dont how can a sane logical person in one breathe claim that we allow those freedoms then in the next state that we are totalitarian and intolerant.   :D

Amadd wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 9:12am:

Quote: it's 90% fyi I think that figure is total rubbish anyway. The 2001 census shows that 36% of muslims are Australian born. That would mean quite a large jump in this figure between 2001 and 2008. However, considering that the children of muslim parents don't have the (Australian given) choice of deciding their religion, or if they want to follow a religion at all, I would expect that the figure to rise as more and more innocent kiddies get brainwashed and beaten into submission. ...they'll then be bound forevermore to follow Islam through fear of persecution. Quite a good system you have there  ;D

that's so weird!! I wonder where I heard that stat- I swear I saw it in an abs document. but looking at the 2006 census it's saying that 42% are australian born.

hmmm- Im gonna have to look into that further and find out what that stat was!

sorry guys!!

Thanks for being honest - appreciated.

I understand that their execution is imminent. The execution order has been received by all three of the terrorists.

I hope that we get a few reps. to witness them.
From what I can gather, media coverage at the 3 seperate syncronised events is going to be extremely limited, and the bodies are supposedly going to be airlifted to their place of burial.

"As revealed in the Herald,the Bali bombers have received several offers from wealthy backers to bury them together in a special jihadi cemetery. The idea is that "pilgrims" can pay their respects to the "holy warriors".

I wouldn't be surprised if they are airlifted alive to their very own Indonesian island, each with 72 virgins ranging from 6 years of age upwards awaiting them and they'll live out their days as muslim kings.

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the vices of society like drinking, gambling, open sex etc.

Obviously the koran does not have the bit about jealousy as being a curse.

As a convert, did you perhaps indulge in all of the cited vices? If you did, and decided they were bad, you obviously were not doing it right. ;D

I certainly did, and would not swap them for all the white raisins in paradise. ;D

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If you did, and decided they were bad, you obviously were not doing it right.

Just because something feels good, doesn't mean it's good.

Perhaps I can illustrate this point with an example that's more at your level. Children love eating lollies, and enjoy them thoroughly and think they're good. But in the end it's not good for them and damages their health. Doesn't mean that they can't enjoy these things within certain bounds (as Islam permits some of the enjoyment of those things within certain bounds).

No one's saying that excessive drinking or gambling is good for you are they? But in moderation, it isn't the great evil you claim it to be.

Amadd wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 9:31am:

I hope that we get a few reps. to witness them. From what I can gather, media coverage at the 3 seperate syncronised events is going to be extremely limited, and the bodies are supposedly going to be airlifted to their place of burial. "As revealed in the Herald,the Bali bombers have received several offers from wealthy backers to bury them together in a special jihadi cemetery. The idea is that "pilgrims" can pay their respects to the "holy warriors". I wouldn't be surprised if they are airlifted alive to their very own Indonesian island, each with 72 virgins ranging from 6 years of age upwards awaiting them and they'll live out their days as muslim kings.

You might be surprised, but the mainstream in Indonesia regards Amrozi as an idiot with severe FITH syndrome.  The vast majority of people in Bali will be happy to see them despatched.

I don't subscribe to capital punishment myself, but at least justice is being done.

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You might be surprised, but the mainstream in Indonesia regards Amrozi as an idiot with severe FITH syndrome.  The vast majority of people in Bali will be happy to see them despatched.

I do believe that in general, Indonesians are very peaceful. In a country with such a huge population, there's always going to be a certain percentage of loons.

However, they do have quite a bit of support. They should've been executed years ago.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 1^st, 2008 at 11:05pm:

[quote] Since I'm not politically active at all, this statement is just moot. Even if I were, this is a democratic society, all members of society are permitted to air and promote their own views. If it's accepted by the majority, it'll float, if not, it'll sink. If you serious want to be an Australian, I suggest you realise this fact about how our political system works. Attempting to deny or suppress any sector of society their right to air and promote their views (that don't break any laws) is not permitted in Australian society. Again learn this, or go home.

You are a Hizb ul Tahrir propagandist. That's pretty politically active. Why lie about it?

And I am not suppressing your views (I am not a moderator like you with the power to delete other people's posts that contradict or cause discomfort to your hegemonist political principles). I am merely ridiculing and opposing your views. And you are helping me by posting such dishonest, oily nonsense.

In your mind your views deserve respect by merely being Islamic views, and so ridicule and opposition (staunch Australian values) are intolerable. So you come out with the stupidest nonsense about suppression.

And this silly stuff of you telling me about 'our' culture - even you must be squirming inside.

Soren, I should've also added to my previous post that as well as having their tourist trade crippled, Bali is nearly all Hindu, so I don't think they'd get much support there.

...and I agree with your last post.
Islam is by nature political. When it comes down to it, for muslims, there is no seperating politics and religion.

jordan484 wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 10:38am:

No one's saying that excessive drinking or gambling is good for you are they? But in moderation, it isn't the great evil you claim it to be.

the problems with alcohol and gambling are that such things are addictive and can be quite detrimental.

alcohol affects your state of mind and it can become a crutch. since when have people en masse exhibited the ability or desire to control their vices?

I think it's great when people can do things in moderation, but for many people this is not the case.

it's no coincidence now that we are seeing reports that state alcohol as the number one cause of dysnfunction and abuse within families

good thing not all people have addictive personalities then.

Oh and I think out of control youth as being a product of progressive left's intervention in schooling and the legal system re discipline and responsibility.

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I think it's great when people can do things in moderation, but for many people this is not the case.

What would you suggest? Prohibition? The only reason abu is anti drinking and gambling is because that's what his religion tells him, he has no independent thought on the matter. Alcohol and gambling have never been a problem with me or anyone I know, we enjoy the odd punt (about twice a year) and we drink in moderation. We are not evil or immoral because of that, yet this is what abu accuses us of being. Some people take things to the extreme and it becomes detrimental to themselves and others (look at Islam) but most people are sensible and moderate.

Well I drink probably on more days than I don't, maybe not, but I rarely ever get intoxicated, and very rarely would ever reach the limit where I could not legally drive.

I love gambling, but I cannot afford to gamble a lot, so I don't.

When I was younger, I used to drink a lot more, and get drunk as a skunk at least once a week, I would combine that with as much pot as I could ingest, and had a pretty freewheeling sex life, and I still consider it as very stupid and self indulgent.
I would not have missed it for anything in the world, it was absolutely awesome, and I feel sorry for those that missed that ride, it was a doozy.

The fact that I survived was down to good luck, not good management, but I aint complaining.

All us Aussies should take bali off our tourist zone till they change.
We want to heard the muslim clerics there protest AGAINST terrorism strongly.

I want to see these people given NO support or kudos.
Will muslims give quiet tacit approval as per normal ?




"THREE bombs exploded in Indonesia's Moluccas islands early today, local television reported.

The bombs went off in Ternate, in North Maluku, including one which exploded outside the governor's office, local television stations Metro TV and TV1 reported.

Indonesian authorities have stepped up security in recent days ahead of the imminent execution of three Muslim militants for their role in the 2002 Bali bomb attacks in which 202 people died. "

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24592699-5003402,00.html

That's probably just what they want sprint.
They're obviously jealous that the Hindus get the tourist dollar because they are a more open and free society.

I wouldn't go there atm, but I would consider it in the future. Unfortunately, the Balinese people are also the innocent victims.

Regarding your link (that I had to copy/paste  >:(), I think they should get the executions over with ASAP.