"AN Indonesian child protection agency is investigating reports of a marriage between a Muslim cleric and a 12-year-old girl, the Jakarta Post newspaper reports.

The newspaper said the 43-year-old cleric from Central Java allegedly married the minor girl with her parents' consent in August and planned to marry two more girls, aged seven and nine.

The Government-backed Indonesian Child Protection Commission (KPAI) plans to question the cleric, the girl, her parents, the minister who married them and witnesses of the marriage.

Under the Indonesian law, a woman must be at least 16 years old to marry. Marriage with a minor carries a maximum of five years.

The cleric is a rich businessman who owns a Muslim boarding school in Central Java. He made headlines in local newspapers after donating billions of rupiah to the poor during the fasting month of Ramadan.

His first wife is 26. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24554258-12377,00.html

Well it does show "some" morality, he could just buy orphans for sex if he wanted to, but he chooses to marry them, he is only following his religions example, and teachings, so respect for other religions dictates we give him an "attaboy", follow your faith. :o

He is indeed following his religions example and teachings.

Pity it is against the laws of the
"Under the Indonesian law, a woman must be at least 16 years old to marry. Marriage with a minor carries a maximum of five years."

Still, good to see which laws he follows

that is chronically gross

Less than 100 years ago in most Western countries 12 was age of consent, and in quite a few countries today (not just Muslim ones) it still is.

I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross, yet marrying another man is now all of a sudden normal and not gross in the slightest...

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 6:40am:

Less than 100 years ago in most Western countries 12 was age of consent, and in quite a few countries today (not just Muslim ones) it still is. I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross, yet marrying another man is now all of a sudden normal and not gross in the slightest...

first of all in Indonesia the age of consent is 16- so it was illegal anyway. So his very act of marrying her was haram because he broke the laws of the country.

Secondly, two men marrying each other has a very important element that this does- mutual adult consent.

Children do not have the ability to discern what they want need and what is good for them. There is so much room for manipulation and abuse when a child marries a man- there is no guarantee as to the man's character and the child is essentially defenceless against him.

Even if the child has a loving family and support system- that means nothing if you know anything about child psychology. It's very easy to intimidate and manipulate children. A 43 year old man is a lot more sophisticated than a 12 year old girl.

Thirdly- note that the article mentioned the parents consenting to the marriage but did not mention anything about the child consenting.

Then again this is a moot point- for it is my opinion that a 12 year old does not have the capacity to consent to marriage and sexual relations.

the fact that this used to be legal in western countries less than 100 years ago means sweet FA. It's not going to make me agree with it, or give this act some kind of authority via historical tradition. There were many things 100 years ago, and even now, that I do not morally agree with and the mere fact that they exist or have existed does little to sway me from that point of view.

Quote:

I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross

Therein lies the problem with you people.

What's even stranger is that this guy is a cleric - he holds a position of respect within the community. For some reason he thought that meant he could get away with openly flouting Indonesia law.

I remember there was a discussion recently where the Muslims present defended the right of the Indonesian government to impose it's standards on the citizens of Bali, who do not generally share them. What are those same Muslims saying now?


Quote:

Less than 100 years ago in most Western countries 12 was age of consent, and in quite a few countries today (not just Muslim ones) it still is. I don't see how all of a sudden marrying at age 12 to a FEMALE became chronically gross, yet marrying another man is now all of a sudden normal and not gross in the slightest...

Are you trying to say it is OK for him to do this Abu? Are are you just trying to change the subject?

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 8:01am:

What's even stranger is that this guy is a cleric - he holds a position of respect within the community. For some reason he thought that meant he could get away with openly flouting Indonesia law.

You've been told a number of times now that their is no clergy in Islam.....or hasn't it yet sunk into your thick head (just practising my right to freedom of speech remember).

So what are you trying to say lestat ?
That the muslim cleric has nothing to do with islam ?
That marrying a child is not allowed under islam ?
That there are no clerics in islam ?
That Indonesia is not a muslim country ?
That the laws in indonesia dont matter ?

Abu - are you saying that everything that happened 100 years ago still should happen ??

Am I getting better at asking questions ?

Hmm...  I'd imagine that life expectancy in those days was a lot less too Mozz.  Not that I condone marriage at such an early age.  Good thing some of us have progressed.  Also why anyone would seek sex with a child is beyond me.

grendel - maybe because they are a pervert ?
mentally/emotionally/ethically not right.

A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old.

Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25.

Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think.

Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this.

Quote:

I'd imagine that life expectancy in those days was a lot less too Mozz.

Yes, and I couldn't imagine having adolescent bodies trying to pop out babies would have done much to improve the statistics either.

Yes, by our standards today, having sex with kids seems totally sick, but Abu is correct that it was accepted at a younger age in the past, in western, as well as eastern cultures, he just doesn't have the nads to condemn it as wrong in this day and age.
Afraid of being seen as not marching to the drum of the "perfect" truth I expect.

locutius wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:47am:

A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old. Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25. Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think. Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this.

I know what you're saying but in this case I don't see that as applicable especially as the law itself is against it.

You've been told a number of times now that their is no clergy in Islam.....or hasn't it yet sunk into your thick head (just practising my right to freedom of speech remember).

Les are you claiming he is not a respected member of the local Muslim community? Are you claiming that this isn't a reflection of the attitudes of that Muslim community to pedophilia?

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 9:59am:

locutius wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 9:47am: A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old. Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25. Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think. Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this. I know what you're saying but in this case I don't see that as applicable especially as the law itself is against it.

I was not defending the cleric  ;), I don't know the exact situation. But I did (last sentence) make the assumption that Indonesia had progressed further than this. Certainly the point you raised about it being against the State's laws should have been enough, from my understanding, for a follower of Islam to have not pursued this.

I was probably more than anything trying to put marriagable age into perspective.

locutius wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 11:23am:

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 9:59am: locutius wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 9:47am: A 12 year olds have different maturity in different parts of the world. A ditzy 12 year old from the North Shore of Sydney, who suffers from every psychological disorder that her teenage fashion magazine tells her to. Has just started High School and has only ever had to worry about being daddy's pretty little princess is not even in the same ball park of maturity as a 12 year old that comes from a society where she has had to help with the family survival, maintaining house, caring for younger brothers and sisters since she was 4 years old. Societies, from which we are not so far removed historically, and certainly not psychologically accepted that a girl becomes a woman at first menstration, and they did not have the luxury of waiting when people were considered middle age at 20-25. Marriage at 12 offends our sensitivities, and IS too young for our padded out existence in the West. We simply offer more opportunities for peoples lives and are able to extend the habitat and culture of the child far longer than at any other time in history. An extension that is not always positive for the overall maturity of society I think. Maybe my interest in anthropology allows me to be less shocked at the idea than some. I did assume that Indonesia was more modern than this. I know what you're saying but in this case I don't see that as applicable especially as the law itself is against it. I was not defending the cleric  ;), I don't know the exact situation. But I did (last sentence) make the assumption that Indonesia had progressed further than this. Certainly the point you raised about it being against the State's laws should have been enough, from my understanding, for a follower of Islam to have not pursued this. I was probably more than anything trying to put marriagable age into perspective.

sorry- I know you weren't in support of it! I was just continuing on about what my opinion was in light of what you'd said

but as to saying that you thought indonesia was more sophisticated than this- well according to its laws it is! if it weren't this would be legal- it's this bloke who hasn't progressed :P

locutius, excellent post.

So to all you who are trying to justify his marriage to the 12 year old, and maybe even 12 is at the fuzzy line, but what do you have to say about his intended marriage to seven and nine year old? Make no mistake there, seven years old is a child in any language, race, religion, culture or country.

he is a paedophile!!!!!!

Quote:

but what do you have to say about his intended marriage to seven and nine year old? Make no mistake there, seven years old is a child in any language, race, religion, culture or country.

Intended to... in the future... when they reach the age of maturity, one would assume.

Or, he may intend to make the contact now, but not consummate the marriage, until they reached the age of maturity. I think this part was just added for effect, because of the fact that 12 y.o is not really anything that strange when we consider many countries around the world have 12 as age of consent, and less than 100 years ago, so did almost all countries.

It is very strange for a religious leader to openly break the law like this. Why didn't he just wait till she was 16? Even that is a bit young to be marrying an old bloke like that. And why is he still in such a position of respect?

Gaybriel has made a good point though, the age of consent in Indonesia is 16, and therefore it's illegal to be marrying someone under 16, and Islamically he should abide by that law.

Pathetic responses Abu.
You never have the guts to identify anything about Islam as not being perfect.

Here is a hypothetical, say you have a "pre-teen" daughter or sister, and some local guy in his forties or fifties asks to marry her, would you object on the grounds that you think she is too young to marry?

Assume he is a good muslim etc.

Got the guts to give an honest response?

I won't hold my breath.

since I am raised in the west with western concepts about marriage and age etc. I'd probably not feel too comfortable with it. But I can certainly see the wisdom behind marrying young (after reaching puberty that is) because it prevents that time between becoming physically an adult and legally an adult which modern day societies have created, and which is the most troublesome and destructive period in most kids lives, and often leads to a lot of the misery that plagues them throughout their lives.

Also you must realise not all cultures are Australian culture, and accept that in many countries this is the norm. Don't try to make yourself and your culture the universal judge of everyone else. It's quite ironic because this seems to be something you dislike about religion (islam specifically) is that you perceive them as making themselves universal judges of what's right and wrong.

Do you think this 12yo girl chose to marry the old man? Do you think she is in love? How can you talk of the misery of an extended childhood and education, then claim that marrying girls off at a young age is an improvement?

What about the misery of a vibrant sexual middle aged woman who is married to some very old (70 - 80) man ?

freediver wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 10:19am:

You've been told a number of times now that their is no clergy in Islam.....or hasn't it yet sunk into your thick head (just practising my right to freedom of speech remember). Les are you claiming he is not a respected member of the local Muslim community? Are you claiming that this isn't a reflection of the attitudes of that Muslim community to pedophilia?

No..I am telling you that their is no clergy in Islam...something that has been told to you numerous times....yet it still hasn't sunk into your thick head.

This is your classic tactics...you get told the same thing over and over and over again, and its like it goes through one ear, and out the other. I'm beginning to think its a deliberate ploy...cause no one could possibly be so thick whislt running a web site, albeit a rather pathetic excuse for a forum.

I eagerly anticipate you once again describing an Islamic clergy...oops, oh wait, you already have in another thread. It didn't even take you a day?

Are you pretending to be this thick....really?

Quote:

Do you think this 12yo girl chose to marry the old man?

Since I don't know her case, and neither do you, any claim would be nothing but speculation about what she did or didn't choose.


Quote:

Do you think she is in love?

In Islam we have quite a different perception of love than most non-Muslims do. To you it is usually a temporary overwhelming infatuation that disables reason and logic.

For us, it is a strong and spiritual bond that grows over time and is based around our belief in God, and in Islam.

So do I think she is infatuated (what you call love).. perhaps, perhaps no, I don't know. Do you think it's unusual for a 12 y.o girl to having feelings of love for an older man? If so, then you really don't know as much about females as you might think you do.


Quote:

the misery of an extended childhood and education

In many of these societies, whether a girl gets married at 12 or 16, she probably won't have much of an education anyway. Now I agree, that in itself is not good, as all people should have a right to education. But that's actually another issue, even though you're trying hard to tie them in together.. perhaps because of your recognition of the futility of your argument as it stands.

[mod: Let's not invent words of God] Islam says you are mature enough to marry. ;D

Police raided a wedding between a seven-year-old boy and a five-year-old girl in Pakistan's largest city, arresting the Muslim cleric officiating at the ceremony and the children's parents, a senior officer said. ...



http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=658839

Is that OK abu?

Yes, it's permitted to draw up a marriage contract before children reach a marriageable age. I don't see what you find so wrong with it?

Lack of freedom. But that's Islam all over. We find it wrong, you don't.

No surprises here, Abu too gutless to voice a personal opinion, but no surprise there either, cults strip away your personality until you have no personal opinions left, just the ability to spout party line propaganda. Sad. :'(

Yeh I'm just a mindless drone spewing out the ideas I've been inculcated with by the mass media and my society... Excuse me.

We have the option of forming opinions regarding what the media tells us, what our society tells us. Do you have the same freedom of choosing what you'd like to believe when it comes to Islam? Or must you believe what you are told to by the Islamic texts?

Quote:

Yes, it's permitted to draw up a marriage contract before children reach a marriageable age. I don't see what you find so wrong with it?

I don't know if you read the article abu, but the muslim cleric was actually going to marry a five and a seven year old.
Now that's odd!

Amadd,

It's most likely just a writing of a contract and a little celebration, they wouldn't be moving in together, he wouldn't be leaving primary school to get a job...

It's like a betrothal, so when they reach puberty, or are able to move in together (by being financially independant), ie. when they've grown up, then they'd assume their married life. It's merely the formalities taking place now. That's what is permitted by Islam anyway.

You're just duped by the sensationalist headlines.

If you cannot recognise the unfairness of not being allowed to grow up, and choose your own life partner, then your religion teaches you nothing, and your lack of moral fortitude on this issue displays your lack of respect for humanity.

So what's your personal opinion of the incident Abu? Do you think it is wrong, given the modern context? Or even in absolute terms? Do you think that by allowing this sort of absurdity Islam makes it inevitable?

As I've expressed before, we don't believe in the infatuation concept of love that is prevalent in the West. We believe love is something that grows with a relationship.

So them being paired up now, or when they're 13 or when they're 18 is irrelevant Islamically. I have heard it mentioned though that when they reach puberty, before actually pursuing the married life, they are permitted Islamically to annul the contract, because they weren't adults when it was made for them. I have not verified this though.

As I've expressed before, we don't believe in the infatuation concept of love that is prevalent in the West.

You've said that before? I can't believe I didn't notice that. I think I'll start a enw thread about it.

Quote:

we don't believe in the infatuation concept of love that is prevalent in the West. We believe love is something that grows with a relationship.

I don't believe in that concept of love either. The love I felt for my wife was not infatuation, and it certainly grew and changed over the years we were together. Islam does not have the monopoly on that sort of love in a relationship.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 10:42am:

It's most likely just a writing of a contract and a little celebration, they wouldn't be moving in together, he wouldn't be leaving primary school to get a job... You're just duped by the sensationalist headlines.

LOL...Although I dont agree with this situation, it is vastly different from the original topic. Arranged marriages have been around for centuries. As Abu has pointed out, they can be anulled.

The original topic, a mid-life adult marrying a child and eyeing off a 5 and 7 yo for future marriage.....that, I believe, is nothing short of paedophilia I dont care how anyone tries to justify it.

freediver,


Quote:

You've said that before? I can't believe I didn't notice that

The sad thing is, I said it in response to you freediver, this is just vindication that you don't actually read anything I post, you're too busy just trying to think of new questions to ask about Islam, that you can denigrate it with...

(posts #25 and #28 of this very same thread we're in now)

Quote:

LOL...Although I dont agree with this situation, it is vastly different from the original topic. Arranged marriages have been around for centuries. As Abu has pointed out, they can be anulled.

Then maybe you should ask abu why he moved my post here in the first place.

It wouldn't be a control thingy would it abu?

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 2^nd, 2008 at 1:29pm:

freediver, Quote: You've said that before? I can't believe I didn't notice that The sad thing is, I said it in response to you freediver, this is just vindication that you don't actually read anything I post, you're too busy just trying to think of new questions to ask about Islam, that you can denigrate it with... (posts #25 and #28 of this very same thread we're in now)

Not exactly Abu. All you did is create a strawman and knock it down, then list the ways that views on love are similar, while leaving out the differences. Perhaps this should help explain why your constant claims to have 'answered it already' are nonsense. Perhaps you think you are some kind of perfect writer and everyone understands the full implications of everything you say. It would help if you showed some humility and accepted that even you are prone to miscommunication and need to repeat yourself, calrify, paraphrase or whatever.

Quote:

In Islam we have quite a different perception of love than most non-Muslims do. To you it is usually a temporary overwhelming infatuation that disables reason and logic. For us, it is a strong and spiritual bond that grows over time and is based around our belief in God, and in Islam.

That's pretty clear if you ask me. And it's quite obvious you never even read it, because you clearly stated that you must've missed it.

Don't be ashamed that you didn't read my posts (and answers to you) but understand that's generally why I've become disinterested in discussing things in any great detail with you.

It's not clear. You create the misconception that the difference is limited to your strawman.

It's not clear to me either.


Quote:

So what's your personal opinion of the incident Abu? Do you think it is wrong, given the modern context? Or even in absolute terms? Do you think that by allowing this sort of absurdity Islam makes it inevitable?

to which a clear answer would be either
a/ I dont agree

or

b/ I do agree.

With quotes/reasons to support your opinion either way.


To me, the formalities and a contract is significant, thereofre those associated ust entirely agree.

Quote:

It's not clear to me either.

That's because you don't seem to realise what we were talking about.

My response is relating to the Islamic concept of love...

A/ Do you agree ?

B/ Don't you agree ?