I hear nothing but; victimhood, excuses and redirection of blame from the muslims here.

If Muslims are so unhappy living in the West that they have to create enclaves etc, etc, etc...   why do they stay?

These intelligent people that have all the answers and superior manners and morals why do they stay in a country full of infidels?

Why soil themselves living amongst the kaffir?

I've seen it written... that a Muslim is like a pure clear crystal stream compared to the sewage that is the Kaffir...

Surely it would be better for them and their country of origin or fellow countrymen if they returned to their origins and created the of zenith of civilisation they seem to think only they are capable of creating.

Why don't they go "home' and create that Caliphate they talk about and await the return of the mahdi....  etc, etc, etc

If they give the rest of us any problems in the mean time we can do what the Chinese did...  build a big wall and make it difficult for them to enter countries outside the caliphate.  Expansionism and terrorism solved.

The answer, behind all the self-righteous bluster, is money.
Money. Booty. The good life, the easy life.  Muslims are staying because the life is better. And life is better mostly because ther fellow muslims are not in charge.
For most muslims their religion is as important as for most Anglicans.

The caliphate and mahdi bullshitters are hopeless. Dangerous probably because they are hopeless.
Most muslims are here because they know in their bonees that it is hopeless in thee 'old country'.

I was born here...where would I go?

Well if you consider yourself Australian then stay...  if not and you practice another countries culture then you are more than welcome to go where your lifestyle is the norm.

Grendel wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 10:50pm:

Well if you consider yourself Australian then stay...  if not and you practice another countries culture then you are more than welcome to go where your lifestyle is the norm.

And what culture exactly would you like me to practise...and what exactly does 'practising' this culture actually involve.

What would I have to do to make you satisfied that I am a true dinky di aussie?

Quote:

I was born here...where would I go?

Well if you are of the mind that a society needs Sharia law to be a truly good society, then any country that practices sharia is where you should go.

To thine self be true.

I don't care how many young muslims are popped out, we will never have sharia in australia, it is not compatible with "OUR" culture.

If you don't care about sharia, and do not wish to see it implemented in our country, then stay here.

been there explained that lestat suggest you look it up in the Multiculti forum.

So how long have you been here not to be able to identify what an Australian is or what their lifestyle is like?

The fact you know English and understand at least a modicum of the Australian vernacular is a start.  The rest of your behaviour here towards fellow Australians leaves much to be desired though

Lestat wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 10:47pm:

I was born here...where would I go?

Where do you belong??

Lestat wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 10:55pm:

Grendel wrote on Oct 17th, 2008 at 10:50pm: Well if you consider yourself Australian then stay...  if not and you practice another countries culture then you are more than welcome to go where your lifestyle is the norm. And what culture exactly would you like me to practise...and what exactly does 'practising' this culture actually involve. What would I have to do to make you satisfied that I am a true dinky di aussie?

Volunteer for the army and ask to be deployed in Afghanistan.

Demonsstrate civilisational commitment, in other words.

Many of the first European settlers in Australia despised and even hated  original inhabitants of the continent and their cultures but they stayed. Why?

APPLES AND ORANGES TALLOWOOD
TSK, TSK, TSK...

LOL the first settlers stayed here because it was a penal colony dear.

Please don't muddy the waters.

Grendel wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:30pm:

APPLES AND ORANGES TALLOWOOD TSK, TSK, TSK... LOL the first settlers stayed here because it was a penal colony dear. Please don't muddy the waters.

Melbourneans would strongly disagree about penal.

BTW, both apples and oranges are not Australian natives.

ah yes but they weren't the first settlers...

and they think Batman is someone called John  ;D

now...  no more mud

Grendel wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

been there explained that lestat suggest you look it up in the Multiculti forum. So how long have you been here not to be able to identify what an Australian is or what their lifestyle is like? The fact you know English and understand at least a modicum of the Australian vernacular is a start.  The rest of your behaviour here towards fellow Australians leaves much to be desired though

you assume there is some sort of all encompassing trait or behaviour that defines australians. what a wonderful watering down of our society. how wonderfully simplified australia is now that every single person has at least one characteristic that identifies them as one of the flock.

what a joke.

no actually the joke is the newbies like yourself that seem to have no concept of Australian culture as it has developed.

In fact you probably wouldn't be here except for it.

funnily enough we are recognised by other nationalities.  gee I wonder how they do that if there are no defining features of what it is to be australian.

Enough deflection...  how about addressing the original post.

Quote:

If Muslims are so unhappy living in the West that they have to create enclaves etc, etc, etc...   why do they stay?

I don't think any Muslim in this forum has ever claimed they're unhappy living in the West. I'm quite happy living in Australia, and consider it perhaps the best country to live in, no complaints here.

Perhaps you're mixing it up with disagreement over foreign policy? There's lots of non-Muslims who don't agree with Australian foreign policy also, should everyone who disagrees with it leave? Isn't Australia supposed to be a democracy where freedom of speech and dissent are permitted?

Grendel wrote on Oct 18^th, 2008 at 2:41am:

no actually the joke is the newbies like yourself that seem to have no concept of Australian culture as it has developed. In fact you probably wouldn't be here except for it. funnily enough we are recognised by other nationalities.  gee I wonder how they do that if there are no defining features of what it is to be australian. Enough deflection...  how about addressing the original post.

being new to the forum makes me unable to grasp the concept of Australian culture?

or are you implying I'm new to the country itself?

I never said there were no defining features of Australian culture. obviously there are, however they are not and could not be all encompassing of Australian inhabitants. and to suggest they could be all encompassing is to create an identity by way of exclusion of others. essentially it would appear you only want to consider people Australian who you see as being like yourself- classic narcissism.

perhaps you're one unable to grasp the concept of Australian culture- because your concept is ultimately some fantasy of what you think it should be, and not a recognition of what it actually is.

I don't address your original post because I think it's a load of codswallop.

Grendel wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

been there explained that lestat suggest you look it up in the Multiculti forum.

Given your opposition to multi-culturalism, and since Australia is very much a multi-cultural country, with a multi-cultural immigration system that you are clearly and very much opposed too...

You are clearly upset living in a multi-cultural country.

So why do you stay here...why don't you leave? Why don't you go to a country that has a 'whites only' policy, and is made up of only white anglo saxons.


Grendel wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

So how long have you been here not to be able to identify what an Australian is or what their lifestyle is like?

I've lived here all my life, and long enough to realise that different Australians behave in different ways, and have different cultures. Not all Aussies are bogans...you do realise this don't you. We're not all like you.  

Hence my question, and your failure to answer tells me that you can't answer. Unless of course you believe that 'YOUR' culture is the only Australian culture that is valid.

So I'll ask again..what exactly would you need me to do to show  you that I am true dinky di Aussie.

Maybe a chant of Aussie aussie aussie...oi, oi, oi might convince you. :D


Grendel wrote on Oct 17^th, 2008 at 11:10pm:

The fact you know English and understand at least a modicum of the Australian vernacular is a start.  The rest of your behaviour here towards fellow Australians leaves much to be desired though

Like you can talk....so tell me Grendel..were you born a hypocrite or was it something that you've perfected over time?

Aboo address the opening post...  no escape through pedantry here buddy.

Gaybriel  changing your mind suddenly aint gonna save you either.  Fine opt out if you are incapable of logic and reason.  It's typical of you lot.

Lestat there's no saving you is there.  Yes, I disagree with the policy of Multiculturalism...  Culture is not race buddy... hasn't anyone told you that before.  Typical multiculturalist call em all racist crap.  Fermez la bouche.  lest we all be inundated with your ignorance.  As for the negative steroeotype and cultural cringe you seem fit to throw at me...  get a life, your ignorance is showing.

Lol...  the fact you refuse to look up info posted here and you think Oi OI OI is somehow distinctly Aussie shows just how young  and ignorant you are.

As for your name-calling... water off a ducks back

address the issues or don't bother...  seems to me you are all totally incapable of addressing the truth.

Gaybriel,


Quote:

being new to the forum makes me unable to grasp the concept of Australian culture?

Like he has done with me, Grendel just assumes that because you're not a racist Aussie, therefore you're probably not an Aussie and must be a recent immigrant. In his mindset, either you're a one nation supporting redneck like him, or you're not a real Aussie. Also perhaps because you come across as slightly pro-Islamic (actually I'd just consider you fairly objective on the Islamic issue), that means you must come from Lebanon or Turkey or something.

Lestat,


Quote:

So I'll ask again..what exactly would you need me to do to show  you that I am true dinky di Aussie.

Maybe if you ate some wiggedy grubs? Or learnt to play the diggeridoo? Certainly Grendel can't be deluded enough to think that the 200 year old imported British culture is 'The Definitive Australian' culture?

Grendel,


Quote:

Aboo address the opening post...  no escape through pedantry here buddy.

I addressed it. Just because you're incapable of countering my reply doesn't mean I didn't address it. Let me reiterate it for you:

1) I've not come to any country, I and about 5 or 6 generations of my family before me have been living here, probably longer than 'your lot'.

2) I've never claimed I don't like living in Australia, simply disagree with the foreign policy, as do many others. Do you think Australia should have laws that deport anyone who disagrees with the foreign policy?

Now I am an Aussie, probably for more generations than you, and likewise I think Gaybriel is as well. and Lestat was born, raised and educated here also. So it would seem you're just debating fellow Aussies here, yet you seem to be implying we're all some foreign 'other' that should be deported??? strewth mate show some respect for your fellow Aussies.

Just because Australains disagree over political/religious issues, doesn't mean we call for others to be deported, this is something you have to learn about OUR culture, which you obviously haven't, no doubt because you probably live in some little redneck enclave that refuses to mingle with Australians of other backgrounds.

Building a strawman by debating yourself and ignoring the facts Aboo. feel safe addressing fellow Muslims eh and not the issues.  Well how typical is that?

You Aboo are a first class hypocrite.  For all your moralising and crap  you are worse than those you put down.


Quote:

because you're not a racist Aussie, therefore you're probably not an Aussie

So are all Aussies racist eh?


Quote:

you're a one nation supporting redneck like him

oh dear name calling and ignorance.  Still no actual refutation or debate eh just messenger shooting?  You're proving to be a bigger bigot than those you abuse.

I suggest before we drown in your ignorance and bigotry something you seem to have flooded the site with... you read some history and learn about Australia and its culture.

Now having said that how about trying to actually address my posts for a change.  hmmm.  So far there are no answers to even the opening one.

Quote:

Now having said that how about trying to actually address my posts for a chamge.  hmmm.

Quite rich, considering that's your second post in a row that doesn't address any of the points I made in my last 3 posts...

Quote:

Now I am an Aussie

If you are then why don't you -



Quote:

show some respect for your fellow Aussies.

?

Or is it only non-muslim Australians who are required to show respect to muslim "Australians"?

yawn

I think the original on topic post   ;D ;D ;D

takes precedence over any obfuscation and off topic rant from you Aboo.

Which is double-speak for "I'm lost, someone help me out, please".

If you think I'm going to bother writing a fourth post to re-iterate my response to your original post, you're mistaken.

Now 3 of us have addressed it, and you can't seem to respond to any of our posts... why not?

I'm a very patient man.
How does attacking me and avoiding the original post address the topic?

let me address your opening pedantry  re HATE.

I note the topic opened with "hate"  you do know what quotes signify in that context don't you.  i mean you've been here for generations so English should be no trouble for you at all unless you've been closeted in an enclave where English isn't the first language.

Now I'm giving the 3 of you a chance to explain yourselves and your fellow Muslims.  Isn't that what you want?  To be understood?

Or is it that we actually do understand only too well?

Quote:

Now I'm giving the 3 of you a chance to explain yourselves and your fellow Muslims

There's only two Muslims debating with you, not three. Just because someone isn't agreeing with you, doesn't mean they're a Muslim. You assume far too much, and that's what caused you to make this thread based on the false premise that Muslims dislike Australia, or that we're not even Australians. Now that's what your original post claimed, and both Lestat and I (The two Muslims in this thread, in case you couldn't work it out yourself), have refuted this. Either you accept our refutation gracefully, or you propose a counter-argument (must i run your side of the debate for you??)

Otherwise if you've got another claim that you think needs answering, please don't keep us in suspense, do air it... But when it's answered, don't waste our time yet again refusing to counter our answers (or admitting you're wrong).

rotflmao

You hang on moot points don't you aboo...

So when are you going to address the issues and stop obfuscating.

As for your crap re my assumptions...  the topic was started to start debate...  not have you find spurious reasons to avoid it.

So are you up to it or not?

There's been no moot points or obfuscations, there's been clear answers and refutations to your incorrect assumptions from the initial post.

But as with about five other threads you're currently attempting to participate in, you've got little more to say than internet-acronyms and empty claims of victory.

You're really not up to the standard here mate.

rotflmao
I haven't claimed victory anywhere aboo...  you feeling defeated?

How about you address the original post...  oh and as patient as I am I do have my limits.

One more time for the aboos of the world...

I hear nothing but; victimhood, excuses and redirection of blame from the muslims here.

If Muslims are so unhappy living in the West that they have to create enclaves etc, etc, etc...   why do they stay?

These intelligent people that have all the answers and superior manners and morals why do they stay in a country full of infidels?

Why soil themselves living amongst the kaffir?

I've seen it written... that a Muslim is like a pure clear crystal stream compared to the sewage that is the Kaffir...

Surely it would be better for them and their country of origin or fellow countrymen if they returned to their origins and created the of zenith of civilisation they seem to think only they are capable of creating.

Why don't they go "home' and create that Caliphate they talk about and await the return of the mahdi....  etc, etc, etc

If they give the rest of us any problems in the mean time we can do what the Chinese did...  build a big wall and make it difficult for them to enter countries outside the caliphate.  Expansionism and terrorism solved.

take it a point and question at a time if that helps.  ;D

Grendel wrote on Oct 18^th, 2008 at 1:41pm:

Gaybriel  changing your mind suddenly aint gonna save you either.  Fine opt out if you are incapable of logic and reason.  It's typical of you lot.

you're going to have to tell me what you're referring to specifically so that I can answer you.

if you see a 'sudden change of mind' it will be down to either a) you misinterpreting my original post or b) me not communicating what I meant effectively enough originally and therefore attempting to clarify it more

and anyway grendel- even if I did change my mind in a discussion with you- is that a terrible thing? isn't it a good thing for someone to be able to change their mind?

there's nothing worse than someone who refuses to change their mind (and admit it) merely out of pride

this is not an underhanded attack at you btw- I am talking abstractly

lol
hard to get the truth out eh gaybriel?

"even if I did change my mind"....  you know you did.

Once more another post not addressing the topic.
cant be that hard can it?

Grendel wrote on Oct 19^th, 2008 at 1:18pm:

lol hard to get the truth out eh gaybriel? "even if I did change my mind"....  you know you did. Once more another post not addressing the topic. cant be that hard can it?

sigh

no i didn't

this is pointless

yes i agree trying to have rational debate with muslims or their sicophants and apologists is pointless.

No, trying to have a debate with someone who refuses to answer posts, instead just declaring everything obfuscation and pedantry is what is pointless.

Now as I said already Grendel, I answered you with 3 posts in a row, and you didn't address any of my replies AT ALL. Instead you just opted to proclaim your initial post of 'supreme importance' and anything else to be off topic. My posts were ALL in reply to your initial post, why can't you counter them? You're aware you just look ridiculously incapable of answering anything, right?

Debate is about asking AND answering. You seem to have the 'asking' bit down patt, but the 'answering' bit, you need to work on.

Grendel wrote on Oct 19^th, 2008 at 7:22pm:

yes i agree trying to have rational debate with muslims or their sicophants and apologists is pointless.

whatever you reckon mate

rotflmao

yes aboo...  so when are you going to answer.address those thing put to you?

like I said I'm patient...  but I'm not gonna wait forever.

Well Abu, I have to agree with Grendel on the evasion bit, perhaps it has become so second nature that you do not notice yourself doing it, or perhaps you feel so assailed that you feel you need to do it, either option is sad, for different reasons.

I take issue with you saying how you like australia, and merely wish to voice discontent with some foreign policies that you disagree with.

I have read of your stated hopes for seeing australia to become a muslim country, and part of a newly revived caliphate.
I have read of your support for seeing sharia law in australia.
Ihave read of your support for changing our laws to allow polygamy.

All of those desires are strictly desires of someone who puts Islam before all else, someone whose religion is the central tenet of their lives.

To desire those things so much, but to choose to live where you will never see them accepted seems puzzling, if they mean so much to you then you could choose to go and live in an Islamic country where they will all be available to you the second you step off the plane, so why would you want to stay here in australia, if these things are really so important to you?

Is it fear of having to live a lower standard of life in a muslim country?

Do you hold some aspects of australian culture more important than your muslim beliefs, but are afraid to admit that?

Do you think that if you stay here that you can help achieve your desires to see australia transformed into what you would like it to become?

Do you fear that a more gritty day to day Islamic lifestyle overseas will disappoint you?

You see when I hear people bitch about hating their jobs, I say are you crazy, if you hate it quit, go and find something that you like, life is too short to waste on regrets or missed opportunities.

When I hear your desires for australia to become so very different to what it is, then I have to wonder if you could ever be truly happy here, without seeing those desires come to fruition.

You see, members of a community work together to highlight where we think we can improve things for society, but if you think that the society of australia is so bereft of morality that you need to see it supplanted with a theocracy, then that is not working with the community, it is working against it.
If Islam wants to be accepted it has to accept a role as part of a society, not to BE the society, for that entails the removal of the rights of all who do not want to live in an Islamic society.

Quote:

I have read of your stated hopes for seeing australia to become a muslim country, and part of a newly revived caliphate. I have read of your support for seeing sharia law in australia.

Well since I believe Islam is the truth, why wouldn't I wish for my fellow Australians to learn of that truth? I'm sure most Mormons feel the same, as do most JW's (in fact I know they do, especiually when I hear my doorbell ringing early on Sunday mornings) etc. Is that somehow unAustralian is it? Or indicates someone hates the West?


Quote:

Ihave read of your support for changing our laws to allow polygamy.

Have you, care to show me where?
Even if I did.. don't I, as an Australian have a right to campaign for legislation that I wish to see implemented in Australia? Isn't that what democracy is all about? Seems like you're the one opposing Australian values and Australian beliefs, not me. Not that I've ever campaigned for it, and neither would I.

Or are those rights only extended to non-Muslim citizens mozza? I think you're the one who needs to learn a bit about Australia and our way of life, not I.

Quote:

I have read of your stated hopes for seeing australia to become a muslim country, and part of a newly revived caliphate. I have read of your support for seeing sharia law in australia. Well since I believe Islam is the truth, why wouldn't I wish for my fellow Australians to learn of that truth? I'm sure most Mormons feel the same, as do most JW's (in fact I know they do, especiually when I hear my doorbell ringing early on Sunday mornings) etc. Is that somehow unAustralian is it? Or indicates someone hates the West?

Not really a great analogy Abu, as neither mormonism or jehovah's witnesses have installing a theocratic regime as part of their religious beliefs, as far as I have heard.

That is a major issue, you don't just want to be free to follow your religion, you want to see it imposed onto the whole nation by way of a theocratic Islamic regime, that is not freedom, that is wanting to usurp a democratic government and replace it with a theocracy, which always rules unfairly, in favour of muslims.
Muslims are selfish, self centred people, who demean non-muslims and even use an apartheid sth sfrican type word of disrespect for non-muslims, pretty culturally arrogantly too, I might add.

The next bit which challenges me to search back through old threads to find your support for polygamy to be allowed in australia, as if to imply you had made no such claim, is then followed by, "Even if I did".

Now that is most telling, because of the fact that we feel that many muslims feel free to deceive non-muslims, if they see the deception as beneficial to Islam, and that last statement seems to indicate that you can't remember if you actually told the truth about what you wish to see, or if you just said what you thought would make Islam look better.
If you had a solid stance on the issue, and felt free to express it, then we would not likely see the hesitation about what you may or may not have replied at the time.

mozzaok - you are on fire !!!!!!!!!!!1

Quote:

Not really a great analogy Abu, as neither mormonism or jehovah's witnesses have installing a theocratic regime as part of their religious beliefs, as far as I have heard.

The analogy holds, as both merely wish for their fellow humans to be guided as they were guided. The different religions of course all have different structures, but I wouldn't be so sure Mormons and JW's don't have plans for "God's kingdom on earth", don't you know the Mormons actually established Las Vegas for that very purpose? Quite ironically it ended up being the Gamblers kingdom on earth, especially since gambling is forbidden by Mormons too. They also rebelled against the USA if my memory serves me correctly and Utah had to be taken into the US by force.


Quote:

that is wanting to usurp a democratic government and replace it with a theocracy

These are merely your accusations, not my words. I never mentioned usurping anything.


Quote:

Muslims are selfish, self centred people

How many Muslims do you personally know mozza?


Quote:

who demean non-muslims and even use an apartheid sth sfrican type word of disrespect for non-muslims, pretty culturally arrogantly

I'd suggest the one being arrogant is the one claiming that Islam uses a South African Apartheid term. The word Kafir is an ancient Semitic word that dates back thousands of years and was used in Islam long before Europeans ever invaded and occupied South Africa. what they choose to do with the term is far beyond the control of Islam. Besides, the term kafir has no racial connotations whatsoever, it literally means 'one who covers', who covers the truth and clings to the falsehood. Compare it to the Biblical term 'goy' which means people of all other nations except the Jewish nation, and it's a pretty tame term.

What a pathetic argument really.


Quote:

The next bit which challenges me to search back through old threads to find your support for polygamy to be allowed in australia

Well I certainly wouldn't oppose it if it was, but don't expect to see me out campaigning for it.


Quote:

Now that is most telling, because of the fact that we feel that many muslims feel free to deceive non-muslims

This is nothing but slanderous libel mozza. You 'feel' do you? Good for you. Keep your xenophobic feelings to yourself please.


Quote:

If you had a solid stance on the issue, and felt free to express it

My personal feeling on polygamy being legalised is pretty apathetic. Since I don't practise it, nor am I likely to, it won't really affect me. On the same token, I certainly wouldn't oppose it, but then again, there's a lot of other legislation you won't see me holding up placards to oppose either... Solid enough? Anyway, I think it'd be the government who'd push for it more than Muslims, because financially speaking there's more benefits for the tax man if it's legalised.

Still you didn't answer mozza, do you believe Muslim citizens of Australia don't have a right to campaign for legislation they'd like to see implemented? Why are you afraid of this one? Don't wanna be shown up for the hypocrite you are?

Go Mozz...  on fire.

[smiley=thumbup.gif] ;D

Looks like we have a pair of cheerleaders for team mozz, go girls!

oh poor diddums...  feeling defeated again?  ::)

Mozz - 1
Abu - 0

Cheerleaders, and now a score keeper.

Btw, generally your friends who also share your same views (or will just agree with you on anything) don't count as an objective gauge of how the debate is going. It is measured by each persons ability to actually counter the others points, so move aside and let mozza answer :)

I don't know anyone on here, so no one is my friend. Just concede mozz has absolutely owned you.

We'll see when he answers.

Personally I don't see anything extraordinary about his post. I think the hype of the cheerleaders was probably more convincing. ;D

Well, you wouldn't, much less admit it. You can't see a lot of things, doesn't mean they're not there. It just means you're too blind and biased to see them.

Give me a "M",
Give me an "O"
Give me a "Z",
Give me a "Z"
Give me a "A",
Give me an "O"
Give me a "K",

What have you got ??

MOZZAOK !!!

What have you got ??

MOZZAOK !!!

What have you got ??

MOZZAOK !!!

Careful with the praise.

Mozz is Papua New Guinean.

Not too much or he'll be obliged to send you a bottle of his semen.

But you might have Abu cornered on this one, Mozz.

Blah blah blah...  blah, blah, blah...  answer questions...  blah blah blah...

OK Aboo so when are you going to answer questions..

want me to post the original opener for you again...  for the 3rd time.

I mentioned how I see a pattern of evasion, in many replies from Abu, and I asked if feeling assailed may be a factor, well in seeing the responses after my last post I could certainly understand why he might.

We tend to lose sight of the fact that we are all humans, and all have feelings, and Abu is not Islam, Islam is not Abu, and I don't need or want any cheering on and Abu doesn't need any derision on a personal level, fair enough?

I appreciate his efforts in trying to portray what he believes, to the best of his ability, but he is not the grand master that controls or decides what Islam represents.

Now I appreciate that I raised personal questions for Abu, about why he would wish to remain in australia, if his desire to experience a total Islamic lifestyle could never be realised here.

I would really like him to respond to those points, if he feels he can, but I would ask that he is given some respect for trying to convey what he believes in his heart.

Quote:

OK Aboo so when are you going to answer questions..

In posts #15 and #19.

If you bothered to read them, and had the guts to answer them.

As I've already told you Grendel, a debate involves at least 2 participants. When one participant asks a question don't cower away from answering it and instead proclaim some hollow victory.

Now I've clearly answered yours questions, if you don't like my answers, then please counter or refute them. Let it be known that I've answered you twice already in posts #15 and #19, and that YOU are the little child refusing to continue the debate.

When you wanna continue, by addressing my posts, let me know...

Do you want to try and respond to the questions I posed about where you choose to make your home Abu?

Oh I was just happy you reiterated what I said and have finally come around to my way of thinking on this Mozz....
(Welcome to the Darkside..)  8-)

He has his own cheer-squad, etc, etc, etc...

I'm still waiting for answers, not evasion.

Oh and aboo...  in POST 1...  when you get around to addressing that properly, I'll look at your questions in 15 and 19.  I'm sure they'll be on topic and interesting. ;D

ROTFLMAO... I think you'll find I have answered yoU and even started a whole new topic in response to one.   ;D ;D  there are none so blind eh Aboo.

Quote:

Do you want to try and respond to the questions I posed about where you choose to make your home Abu?

I already responded to your three main points in my post #38. You addressed my first response, but not my second one, why not? You've now made several posts, none of them addressing the issue I raised for you, and I then asked you again, Do you believe Muslim citizens of Australia don't have a right to campaign for legislation they'd like implemented?

I also countered your argument that other religious groups don't desire to see their fellow compatriots embrace their beliefs, and also that they don't desire to establish the "Kingdom of God on earth".

I also clearly refuted your blatant and false accusation about the Islamic term kafir being an apartheid term from South Africa.

I also challenged you to  bring any quote from me where I indicated that Muslims must usurp the democratic system in Australia, you did not.

I also challenged your slander of Muslims (Muslims are selfish, self centred people) with a question about how many Muslims you personally know to be able to makke such a sweeping judgement.

I also clearly stated for you my attitudes towards campaigning for the legsialisation of polygamy (which you still haven't answered, would this be an unAustralian act???) which you incorrectly claimed I call for.

Looking back over the little rally of posts we just exchanged mozzaok, it's quite obvious I've clearly addressed most, if not ALL, of your points, whilst you've failed to address most of mine, and have just ducked and avoided all of your obvious mistakes, false accusations and slanders. Not once pausing to apologise or at least re-evaluate your position in the discussion.

This is not a debate.. really it's a joke. I'm surprised you have so little shame and continue asking me to address points, when it's quite clear I have addressed yours and Grendel's quite extensively, as did Lestat and Gaybriel, they at least had the good sense to just leave you to your own childish follies... I should've done the same two or three pages ago.

In the words of Monty Python...  RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Do you believe Muslim citizens of Australia don't have a right to campaign for legislation they'd like implemented?

No. Just as any group would not have the right to campaign for legislation that is divisive, sexist, racist, unfair, treats people differently, and forces religious beliefs onto others.

Like mozz said, there are plenty of places in the world where you can live under those sorts of conditions, how incredibly selfish of you muslims to want to enforce your belief system here too.

Quote:

I'll look at your questions in 15 and 19.  I'm sure they'll be on topic and interesting.

After three pages of ranting and raving I didn't answer your initial post, you now admit you never even read my responses?

It's really quite clear this discussion is futile. You don't even give your opponents in the debate the basic decency of reading their posts. Although this much was clear from the second page, I thought I'd still give you the benefit of the doubt, what a waste of time that was. Sorry but you don't deserve another response from me.

Well I don't entirely agree with your view Grendel, I think Islam has seen the worst and most divisive elements within it take control, and that has seen the general muslim population floundering between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Abu also has raised many relevant points about the appalling behaviour of western governments in how they have reacted to the Islamist terrorists, which has only engendered greater polarisation by their actions.

Unfortunately, the ones at the top, on both sides, seem to be extremists.

You cannot dismiss the actions of Bush, the worst president in US history, as not being highly inflammatory, which has seen the jihadists profile and beliefs, given more credence than they deserve.

The disappointing thing for us westerners is seeing more than half of our western populations roundly denouncing the extremist behaviour of "BOTH" sides, but from the muslim world, we only see condemnation of the west.

We will see a change of president in a few weeks, and with that comes hope of a new direction for the west, but who is there to give hope and leadership for the muslims?

Most of us see that as a very problematic issue which goes back to Islam's basic structure.

Quote:

No. Just as any group would not have the right to campaign for legislation that is divisive, sexist, racist, unfair, treats people differently, and forces religious beliefs onto others.

If that were actually the case, then the legislation would never be passed, right? Isn't democracy about the people being able to decide the laws they want to live by? You seem to believe there's no right to decide... And therefore you seem actually opposed to democracy.

words fail me aboo...

Quote:

After three pages of ranting and raving I didn't answer your initial post, you now admit you never even read my responses?

ah no I never did say that.

How would I know you were incapable of answering things if I didn't read your crap?

So once more we have evasion etc, etc, etc...  DWNT

Oh I think you very much agree with me Mozz and finally youve opened your eyes to what Moderation in islam actually means.
I remember very well the inexperienced PC blindness you showed on Cracker..  it aint here anymore.

No, I'm opposed to you muslims wanting to legislate muslims beliefs onto non-muslims.

Of course Islam would never be voted into power in a non-islamic country Abu.
What we see is populations demanding different rules applying to them along religious lines.
We have seen the pattern in europe, muslims migrate, they congregate in an area, they make it into an enclave for muslims which "THEY" wish to separate from non-muslims, and then they start making demands of the broader community.
We want polygamy, we want sharia, we want Islamic holidays respected, we want Islamic customs respected.
It is a display of all that is worst about religion, making special demands because of their mass delusion.

Now we see and hear a lot of "we wants" from the muslim communities, but what do they want to give to the communities they attach themselves to?

Many see muslim migration as parasitic, but others see it as parasitoidal.
The former is happy to leech off a host, and just grow fat, the latter is so voracious that they actually kill the host.

With the historical record of the past, and the current escalating demands witnessed in Europe, many are starting to think of Islam as a parasitoidal culture.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:10am:

No, I'm opposed to you muslims wanting to legislate muslims beliefs onto non-muslims.

Your stupidity is staggering...really I am amazed that Abu would even waste his time with you.

Do you even know who 'legislates' law in Australia. Obviously not, as if you did you wouldn't make such a stupid statement.

It is parliment that legislates law..not muslims, not any other special interest group. People may lobby parliament...however, only parliament (and some court judges) have the right to legislate.

So unless you believe that muslims will shortly by some miracle be voted en mass into parliament, your statement is really silly and once again reflects your ignorance.

lol...you don't even know how your democratic system works. BAWAHAHA...

Go away jordan, really, your beginning to bore us all with your ignorance and stupidity. Go and educate yourself.

Lestat wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 12:48pm:

jordan484 wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:10am: No, I'm opposed to you muslims wanting to legislate muslims beliefs onto non-muslims. Your stupidity is staggering...really I am amazed that Abu would even waste his time with you. Do you even know who 'legislates' law in Australia. Obviously not, as if you did you wouldn't make such a stupid statement. It is parliment that legislates law..not muslims, not any other special interest group. People may lobby parliament...however, only parliament (and some court judges) have the right to legislate. So unless you believe that muslims will shortly by some miracle be voted en mass into parliament, your statement is really silly and once again reflects your ignorance. lol...you don't even know how your democratic system works. BAWAHAHA... Go away jordan, really, your beginning to bore us all with your ignorance and stupidity. Go and educate yourself.

I think he's talking about muslims wanting to have legislation put in place that accords with their beliefs. as opposed to them actually putting the legislation in themselves

really nit picking there man. it's obvious what he meant

Gaybriel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 12:52pm:

Lestat wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 12:48pm: jordan484 wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 11:10am: No, I'm opposed to you muslims wanting to legislate muslims beliefs onto non-muslims. Your stupidity is staggering...really I am amazed that Abu would even waste his time with you. Do you even know who 'legislates' law in Australia. Obviously not, as if you did you wouldn't make such a stupid statement. It is parliment that legislates law..not muslims, not any other special interest group. People may lobby parliament...however, only parliament (and some court judges) have the right to legislate. So unless you believe that muslims will shortly by some miracle be voted en mass into parliament, your statement is really silly and once again reflects your ignorance. lol...you don't even know how your democratic system works. BAWAHAHA... Go away jordan, really, your beginning to bore us all with your ignorance and stupidity. Go and educate yourself. I think he's talking about muslims wanting to have legislation put in place that accords with their beliefs. as opposed to them actually putting the legislation in themselves really nit picking there man. it's obvious what he meant

Not really...read his post in its context and in relation to the response from Abu...who already touched on this issue.

He has already been asked in this thread whether muslims have the right to 'campaign' for legislation they'd like implement, of which he said 'no'.

Abu then responded to his post, and hence his quote. Really..it is not nit picking at all, it is once again an example of Jordan allowing his hate to consume him and making stupid remards as a result.

Grendel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2008 at 11:09am:

Oh I think you very much agree with me Mozz and finally youve opened your eyes to what Moderation in islam actually means. I remember very well the inexperienced PC blindness you showed on Cracker..  it aint here anymore.

Yes context is a funny thing.
In cracker, we had no muslims posting, but we had a lot of hateful racist stuff, which I felt I had to challenge, even if I could see a point to their bitterness, I didn't think it should go unanswered.

I don't consider all muslims as extremists, and the few I have met have been nice enough, and I think that the proportion of wackos, is probably not too disimiliar to that of christians, in the US.
(Obviously less for other countries who have not been bombarded with evangelical claptrap for half a century or more)

So I look upon the workaday joe average muslims as beaten down, and intimidated by the extremists, but I also think if they were left to their own devices, instead of feeling constantly assaulted, by both sides, we would see less sympathy for extreme views.

I see Islam the religion, as problematic, and many aspects of it's teachings as untenable, and far worse than modern christianity, more akin to inquisition days christianity.

I have grown more distrusting of Islam over the last couple of years, and the developments in europe have been very forefront in driving that distrust.
Islam has displayed a grass roots antipathy to all things western, which creates issues if they choose to live in western countries.

I am still hopeful, that the world will step back from this head on confrontation of cultures, and moderate muslims will start to come to the fore, to offer some leadership, and promote the modernisation and change which Islam desperately needs.

Personally my view on all religions is the same, I wish they would all just go away, the bunch of trouble makers that they are.

Quote:

I think he's talking about muslims wanting to have legislation put in place that accords with their beliefs. as opposed to them actually putting the legislation in themselves really nit picking there man. it's obvious what he meant

Yes, that's what I meant.

Thanks gaybriel.

Quote:

and the few I have met have been nice enough

Weren't they selfish and self-centred?

Or do you mean to say in your ACTUAL experiences with Muslims, they've been 'nice enough' but since the propaganda you read about them tells you they're selfish and self-centred, therefore the few you've met must've just been hoodwinking you right?

Quote:

Weren't they selfish and self-centred?

I did not really interact enough to make a personal value judgement like that about those individuals, but I think you know full well that I was referring to the egocentric claims of being the possessors of the only truth direct from allah, and their treatment of infidels as inferiors is pretty sound reason to consider the muslim mindset as selfish, or egotistical if you prefer.


Quote:

I also clearly refuted your blatant and false accusation about the Islamic term kafir being an apartheid term from South Africa.

An apartheid sth african type word of disrespect.

OK, I will baby step you through it,

apartheid sth african, describing the sth african culture as it was under apartheids hideous racist framework,, ie; promoting division,

so the word of disrespect used by muslims, to describe non-muslims, is not only the same sounding word, but used in the same manner as a racist slur from one of the ugliest racist regimes in modern history, and that is the type of word that muslims choose to use to describe non-muslims.

Are you asserting that it bears no derogatory undertones of the cultural superior attitude of muslims to non-muslims?

I really struggle to think of it as a term of endearment.

Quote:

Quote: I have read of your stated hopes for seeing australia to become a muslim country, and part of a newly revived caliphate. I have read of your support for seeing sharia law in australia. Well since I believe Islam is the truth, why wouldn't I wish for my fellow Australians to learn of that truth? I'm sure most Mormons feel the same, as do most JW's (in fact I know they do, especiually when I hear my doorbell ringing early on Sunday mornings) etc. Is that somehow unAustralian is it? Or indicates someone hates the West?

Now standing on a fruit box in hyde park, yelling "come one come all, hear the one true prophet's message", is not what we were talking about, and I have absolutely no doubt that you very well knew that before you posted your disingenuous, evasive, misleading, reply.

Muslims are not happy to merely spread the word, they make no bones about seeing Islam installed , along with Sharia law, united under a new caliphate, in every country they live.

You took offence at the word usurp, for the replacement of a democracy with a theocracy, but if you do not usurp one system of government, how do you propose a completely different type of government be installed?

If you say we will vote for it, then, I will revert back to my previous issue of the muslim propensity for deceiving infidels as being a just and praiseworthy course of action, for not even you could believe that will ever happen in australia, in your lifetime.

Which returns me to my original questions, which you claim to have answered, but you know, you evaded.


Quote:

To desire those things so much, but to choose to live where you will never see them accepted seems puzzling, if they mean so much to you then you could choose to go and live in an Islamic country where they will all be available to you the second you step off the plane, so why would you want to stay here in australia, if these things are really so important to you? Is it fear of having to live a lower standard of life in a muslim country? Do you hold some aspects of australian culture more important than your muslim beliefs, but are afraid to admit that? Do you think that if you stay here that you can help achieve your desires to see australia transformed into what you would like it to become? Do you fear that a more gritty day to day Islamic lifestyle overseas will disappoint you?

Do you want to have a go, or will you decide to pass?

I have to suppress mirth at the claims of truth made by some, as Jack Nicholson said,
"you can't handle the truth"

The catholics may wish to preach and convert, but if I am not interested, I will not be forced to observe catholic customs, and I find the thought of ring kissing somewhat offputting (no offence to date bandits intended), and I won't see the archbishop and his cronies making the laws of the land.

So to profess that Islam is just like any other religion is misleading, if not deliberately dishonest.