What are some of the earmarks of a cult ?

1/ The leader is not to be questioned.

2/ The leader is the ONLY one who "knows."

3/ Oh, I like the ones that have an "Alien" element in the belief.
A bit modern, but still pretty cool.

4 / Inevitably, men run it. Much as I dislike saying that one !!!


What others abound ??

Sounds like catholicism.

Nah sounds more like Mormonism to me, especially the bit about the aliens.

Sprint, since probably 90% of all cults on earth have sprung out of  your religion, perhaps you can detail some of your favourite varieties for us?

I ask the mod to delete these last two comments.
they are off topic, do not answer the question, intend to insult me and I'm completely sick of their islamic loving poo.

They can stay.

However, lets turn this in to a discussion on cults and not focus on any one religion or faith, as sprint did not do that.

I have no problem with someone discussing Catholicism as a cult, Mormonism as a cult, Scientology as a cult or Islam as a cult.

Don't make it personal this time. Have a decent discussion. Talk about what makes a cult a cult.

thought of another

5/ The leader is a often a sexual deviant.

Unfortunately this is linked to the leader being a man.
For these reasons, I apologise to the ladies.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 29^th, 2008 at 12:30am:

thought of another 5/ The leader is a often a sexual deviant. Unfortunately this is linked to the leader being a man. For these reasons, I apologise to the ladies.

The clergy? Now I know your talking about Catholicism. ;)

You were instructed not to focus on any one religion.

In my opinion, all religions are born from cults, some stay cults and others move on to become organised and widespread ......and are then called religions. As they grow and mature over time, they lose some cult like features, Christianity has, yet retains some, while Islam is still in relative infancy it is the most cult-like at the moment.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2008 at 9:27am:

You were instructed not to focus on any one religion. In my opinion, all religions are born from cults, some stay cults and others move on to become organised and widespread ......and are then called religions. As they grow and mature over time, they lose some cult like features, Christianity has, yet retains some, while Islam is still in relative infancy it is the most cult-like at the moment.

lol...first you have a go at me for 'focusing on any one religon'...then you go on and do the exact same thing.

Well done...

No, I focused on two. That's one more than one. One less than three.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2008 at 9:50am:

No, I focused on two. That's one more than one. One less than three.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2008 at 9:50am:

while Islam is still in relative infancy it is the most cult-like at the moment.

Yes you may have made a passing mention about Christianity, yet you quite clearly focused on one.

However, on topic, I think you'll find that of all points raised by Sprint...Christianity most fits the bill. The only point that does not apply to Christianity is the alient element.

SNIP

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 28^th, 2008 at 9:41pm:

Nah sounds more like Mormonism to me, especially the bit about the aliens.

No, that's Scientology he's describing.

Moderator - would you please delete ALL of the postings that are off topic and are blatently ignoring your clear instructions.

Some people will just steamroll you till you totally refuse them.

Lestat stop being a wanker.

To bring us back on track.
(This is like trying to herd cats)



1/ The leader is not to be questioned.

2/ The leader is the ONLY one who "knows."

3/ Oh, I like the ones that have an "Alien" element in the belief.
A bit modern, but still pretty cool.

4 / Inevitably, men run it. Much as I dislike saying that one !!!

5/ The leader is a often a sexual deviant.

any others ??

6/ The leader is elevated to the status of God, or the son of God.

Thank you for adding to the list lestat.

Well done.

  7. A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially;
  8. Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality;
  9. Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others;
  10. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion;
 11. Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers;
  12. Leaders and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal.


Sound like anyone we know?

It's all explained to the barmaid here:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/09/24/cult/

Hahahaha!

That was good.

The shop was even better!

I'm ordering one of those T-shirts.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 29^th, 2008 at 4:51pm:

7. A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially;   8. Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality;   9. Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others;   10. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion;  11. Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers;   12. Leaders and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal. Sound like anyone we know?

Yeah...catholicism...but you did say not not to focus on the one religon, so please...could you stop attacking Christianity and focus on the topic.

Thanks.

we are getting a full list !!

13/ the cult will ascribe a terrible fear to some seemingly benign item.

14/ there is often some regular group activitly that tends to keep people "in line", controlled, brainwashed.


Shall we call it quits at 20 ? If we get that far ?

Quote:

10. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion;

Sounds like the central tenet of the religion of Bushism to me.

This is probably a fulll enough list.
Now comes the fun part.

We can see how various beliefs pan out, according to the list we have all compiled.  :-)

1/ The leader is not to be questioned.

2/ The leader is the ONLY one who "knows."

3/ Oh, I like the ones that have an "Alien" element in the belief.
A bit modern, but still pretty cool.

4 / Inevitably, men run it. Much as I dislike saying that one !!!

5/ The leader is a often a sexual deviant.

6/ The leader is elevated to the status of God, or the son of God.

7. A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially;

 8. Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality;

 9. Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others;

 10. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion;

11. Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers;

 12. Leaders and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal.

13/ the cult will ascribe a terrible fear to some seemingly benign item.

14/ there is often some regular group activitly that tends to keep people "in line", controlled, brainwashed.


Any other late additions to the cult list ???

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 30^th, 2008 at 9:43pm:

This is probably a fulll enough list. Now comes the fun part. We can see how various beliefs pan out, according to the list we have all compiled.  :-) Any other late additions to the cult list ???

15 - Severe consequences result for those who wish to leave the group.

That's a pretty good list you have all assembled.

I would like to delete #4.
Though it is true, I can't think of any belief a woman has started.
So #4 would include every belief.

I would also like to delete # 6
From my memory, only christianity has a leader who fits this bill.
So the condition is prob more aimed at christianity, than a general indicator.

Apart from that I am happy with it.
We are now down to a significant 13 conditions !!!!!!!!!
Any other suggestions for inclusion/deletion??

Here is our cult list.

1/ The leader is not to be questioned.

2/ The leader is the ONLY one who "knows."

3/ Oh, I like the ones that have an "Alien" element in the belief.
A bit modern, but still pretty cool.

4 / Inevitably, men run it. Much as I dislike saying that one !!!

5/ The leader is a often a sexual deviant.

6/ The leader is elevated to the status of God, or the son of God.
7. A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially;

8. Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality;

9. Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others;

10. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion;

11. Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers;

12. Leaders and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal.

13/ the cult will ascribe a terrible fear to some seemingly benign item.

14/ there is often some regular group activitly that tends to keep people "in line", controlled, brainwashed.

15 - Severe consequences result for those who wish to leave the group.


Here are the religions by population

A/ Christianity: 2.1 billion

B/ Islam: 1.5 billion

C/ Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

D/ Hinduism: 900 million

E/ Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

F/ Buddhism: 376 million

Go for it guys :-)

looks like  islam scores a 12/13 on the cult indicator.

It misses out on the "alien" element in it.

All in all though, a TOP effort by a mass murdering paedophile pervert

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2008 at 10:44pm:

Here is our cult list. 1/ The leader is not to be questioned. 2/ The leader is the ONLY one who "knows." 3/ Oh, I like the ones that have an "Alien" element in the belief. A bit modern, but still pretty cool. 4 / Inevitably, men run it. Much as I dislike saying that one !!! 5/ The leader is a often a sexual deviant. 6/ The leader is elevated to the status of God, or the son of God. 7. A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially; 8. Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality; 9. Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others; 10. Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and Satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion; 11. Leaders who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers; 12. Leaders and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal. 13/ the cult will ascribe a terrible fear to some seemingly benign item. 14/ there is often some regular group activitly that tends to keep people "in line", controlled, brainwashed. 15 - Severe consequences result for those who wish to leave the group. Here are the religions by population A/ Christianity: 2.1 billion B/ Islam: 1.5 billion C/ Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion D/ Hinduism: 900 million E/ Chinese traditional religion: 394 million F/ Buddhism: 376 million Go for it guys :-)

You forgot Pagans. Don't know about world numbers but in Australia alone 4353 identified themselves as Pagans in 1996 census.
I think it is fairly easy to become god or god's son or daughter so that's would put line number 6 back into saddle.

chrisitanity rack up 4/13.

nb, catholics migh score differently

secular/nonreligious would get the best score I imagine !!

yes, give them a perfect 0/13 !!!!
well done the athiests here - take a bow !!!


I don't know enough about hindus, chinese or buddhists to rate them.
can anyone else do it ??

tallow - given being God or Gods son only applies to one person , I'ld think that one is just a shot at christians.
How does one become God/Gods son ??

for me two earmarks of a cult are

1- that giving money towards the group is a requirement- not merely to be a member but to gain more knowledge

2- that information is not transparent- both to members of the group and those external to it

secrecy is a big warning sign

perhaps the recent muslims would like to peruse this thread and give their input ??

Esp the posts from early october onwards

Well, what I was taught in my comparative religious thought course at uni is that in the field of comparative religion, the term "cult" is applied to any religion that splits of from another religion. In the same field, a "cult" becomes a "sect" when the cult outlives its founder.

For example, by these definitions, Lutheranism was a cult, splitting away from the Catholic church, and became a sect of the Catholic faith when the cult persisted after the death of Martin Luther.

According to the indicators for a cult we have compiled, it has zippo to do with whence it came from.

What did the professor say about a belief some guy invented all by himself ??

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 1:03pm:

How does one become God/Gods son ??

You need to be well connected, or Sicilian. Cult is just another name for religion. In archaeology we talk about cults all the time e.g. The Cult of Isis, the Cult of Dionysus, the Cult of Mithras....etc

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:07am:

According to the indicators for a cult we have compiled, it has zippo to do with whence it came from. What did the professor say about a belief some guy invented all by himself ??

A good bulk of the world religions have elements coming from previous religions. Christianity has aspects of Judaism and Roman practices, along with Platonic philosophy. Islam has aspects of both Christianity and Judaism, as well as some aspects of Aristotle's theories. Buddhism was a branch off of Hinduism, and has many aspects as that religion as well. Lutheranism, the example I used, has aspects of the Catholic faith it branched off from, but differs in certain beliefs which were present in Catholicism such as the validity of indulgences as tickets out of hell, and the infallibility of the Pope.

By the definition I was taught, cults have aspects of the religions they branched off from, but the leader of the cult had differences in ideas and opinions in certain areas.

For example, Muhammad (pbuh) believed in one superior God, which was acknowledged by many of his contemporaries, although the culture was also henonistic, meaning that worship of multiple gods was accepted along with the concept of an all powerful God, so his cult split off saying that there is only One God worthy of worship. This is similar to the Jewish mitzvah, commandment, that "thou shalt have no other gods before me [Adonai]".

The Shema which goes "Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Ehad" is very simular to the first verse of the 112th chapter of the Qur'an "Qul Huwa-Allahu Ahad" ("Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" and "Say He is "Allah" - "the God" - he is one" respectively).

You guys are using the term "cult" in a very negative way, buying into the fear that certain "cultic" movements in the 60's, 70's and 80's created. I wasn't pretending to use the same connotation for the terms that had been discussed, and that's why I gave the definitions that I had been taught for them. I was only trying to show a different view on the topic being discussed.

I was only offering a different interpretation and use of the words cult and sect.

I cannot imagine that my professor would have been very impressed if she was asked a question by someone using such passive-aggressive phrasing as "a belief some guy invented all by himself." I am not very impressed either.

We use "cult" in a very negative way because a "cult" is a very negative thing.
can't imagine many kids running home to mummy saying "mummy, mummy, I joined a cult today !!!"


So, you won't say much about a cult some guy invented all by himself ?

you are unimpressed - so what ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:54am:

We use "cult" in a very negative way because a "cult" is a very negative thing. can't imagine many kids running home to mummy saying "mummy, mummy, I joined a cult today !!!" So, you won't say much about a cult some guy invented all by himself ? you are unimpressed - so what ?

Like I said in my previous post, you're using the negative application of that term.

As for a cult "some guy invented by himself", I thought that I made it pretty clear from the definition I gave that cults branch off from other religions or faith traditions, at least according to the usage of the term I was applying.

Cult groups like the Heaven's Gate, Order of the Solar Temple, Peoples Temple, and the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God which had their members commit mass suicide are certainly negative forms of cult and match many of the features that have been brought up in this thread.

If those are the cults "some guy invented by himself" then I agree, they are bad, but they also have roots in other belief traditions.

i.e. Heaven's Gate had many gnotic aspects modernized with the belief in aliens and spaceships, Solar Temple had aspects of worship of astrological bodies (most of their mass suicides occured around equinoxes and solstices), Peoples Temple was a communist/socialist movement, and the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God was a split off from the Roman Catholic Church.

So my definitions still apply, the definition that you are using is a very one-sided look at only the negative manifestations of cults. Christianity was considered a cult in its day as well.

The definition you use is up to you.
the rest of the world have in the main a different one.

by the scoreboard we made, islam were almost 100% a cult !!
missed out on the lask of a spaceship
think athiests scored the best - thought they might.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 1:00pm:

The definition you use is up to you. the rest of the world have in the main a different one.

I said from the start that the definition I was using was the one I was taught in my Comparative Religious Thought course and which is used in that field of study.


Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 1:00pm:

by the scoreboard we made, islam were almost 100% a cult !! missed out on the lask of a spaceship think athiests scored the best - thought they might.

Hmm.. I kind of get the impression that this scoreboard wasn't exactly the most unbiased...

By any chance, do you yourself happen to be atheist?

Sprint,

You're using a pretty arbitrary set of guidelines to characterise a cult.

Isaac Bonewits provides an "Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame"

His checklist, known as the ABCDEF ("Because understanding cults should be elementary"), allows the user to evaluate groups on a scale of 1–10, on the basis of 18 factors:

   * internal control
   * external control
   * wisdom or knowledge claimed by leaders
   * wisdom or knowledge credited to leaders
   * dogma
   * recruiting
   * front groups
   * wealth
   * sexual manipulation
   * sexual favoritism
   * censorship
   * isolation
   * dropout control
   * violence
   * paranoia
   * grimness
   * surrender of will
   * hypocrisy

The ABCDEF is available in multiple languages, including German, French, Italian, Polish, and Portuguese, on Bonewits's website, which is here:

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

You'll probably find that neither Islam nor most forms of mainstream Christianity would score particularly high. Of course you may prefer to continue just to misconstrue Islam, and others might say that because JC asked people to bring all the little children to him, he had a similar affliction.

Nobody in their right mind would define either Islam or Christianity as cults in the sense that you imply, except in the broad scientific definition which just means a devotional group.

muso wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 10:35am:

You need to be well connected, or Sicilian.

That just gave me Princess Bride flashbacks. :)

muso and emily - we all added items to the list.

Are there any you disagree with or want to add ??

On that list muso I believe islam would still do very well indeed.

Emily the Muslim wrote on Nov 14^th, 2008 at 1:45pm:

muso wrote on Nov 14th, 2008 at 10:35am: You need to be well connected, or Sicilian. That just gave me Princess Bride flashbacks. :)

Love the movie. A gem.
Indigo.

Inigo