The Indonesian resort isle of Bali is up in arms over a new pornography bill which some say threatens Hindu traditions and bikini-clad tourism.

From its mountain temples festooned in ancient phallic symbols to its pristine beaches where Westerners bask in skimpy swimmers, Bali is an island famous for its easy-going lifestyle and sensual charms.

But a new bill designed to define pornography and set a moral tone across the vast, mainly Muslim archipelago of Indonesia is threatening to change all that, according to critics here.

Balinese legislators, rights activists, artists and tourism entrepreneurs are planning to join forces in a campaign of civil disobedience against what they say is ill-conceived and politically motivated meddling from Jakarta.

They say the bill overlaps with earlier legislation, defines pornography too broadly and will encourage Muslim extremists to enforce their values on Hindu Bali.

...continued here -

http://www.theage.com.au/news/news/bali-bristles-over-bikini-ban-bill/2008/09/18/1221331008315.html

More Muslim meddling.

Yeh how dare Muslims meddle in their own country, the cheek of it.

Wait.. when it's your own country, it's not called meddling.

When the Australian government legislates to manage Australian society, is that meddling? How would you greet someone from a neighbouring country claiming Australia has no right to decide the standards within it's own borders? Knowing how much of a hypocrite you are, I already know the answer.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 10:49am:

Yeh how dare Muslims meddle in their own country, the cheek of it. Wait.. when it's your own country, it's not called meddling. When the Australian government legislates to manage Australian society, is that meddling? How would you greet someone from a neighbouring country claiming Australia has no right to decide the standards within it's own borders? Knowing how much of a hypocrite you are, I already know the answer.

Bali is a hindu island,goose.

Maybe Australia should tell your mob to live like us or mind you dont hit your ass on the way out of here.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 10:49am:

Yeh how dare Muslims meddle in their own country, the cheek of it.

No multiculturalism for them, then. No siree, that's for the kuffr to accommodate the muslims, not the other way around (as usual).

And so much for Muslim toleration of those who have come under their rule. Bali is Hindu. Thriving tourism industry? Cant' have that. Worse mix - idolators being hospitable to Western unbelievers. Pretty much the bali bombers' credo.
Also, see catholic East Timor. What happened to them when they tested that much praised muslim magnanimity and tolerance.

What are they going to do about the Papuans? Their girls and women go around - gasp - uncovered, practicly naked.
Mind, they are only doing it to mock and disrespect the Muslims in their own country! The cheek - no, the horror! Must be a plot. Probably the jooos.
Where's Rage Boy when you need him?

Ahh,  there you are...

atheist,


Quote:

Bali is a hindu island,goose

A Hindu populated island in the worlds largest Muslim nation. Your statement was about as helpful as me pointing out the city of Hume in Victoria is a 'Turkish Muslim municipality and therefore it's Turkish mayor has a right to prevent the Australian government imposing Australian laws on them'.


Quote:

Maybe Australia should tell your mob to live like us or mind you dont hit your ass on the way out of here.

Right.. but Indonesia has no right to tell the Hindu mob the same, right? Or were you under the delusion Bali was an independant nation? Who's the goose now?

soren,


Quote:

No multiculturalism for them, then. No siree, that's for the kuffr to accommodate the muslims, not the other way around (as usual).

I don't think any Muslim in Australia has ever claimed bikinis should be banned. Yet you are supporting the idea that Hindus in Indonesia should be able to tell the government what they can and can't ban?


Quote:

Also, see catholic East Timor. What happened to them when they tested that much praised muslim magnanimity and tolerance.

Too bad Bali doesn't have any substantial natural resources like East Timor does... Or the Australian government might've had to invade it, and protect those poor Balinese from falling under the extremist laws of their government in Jakarta.


Quote:

Their girls and women go around - gasp - uncovered, practicly naked.

Not to mention the fact they're avid pig eaters.

So tell me soren, do you believe Muslims in the city of Hume or in Lakemba in Sydney should have a right to repel laws that Canberra deems they must uphold?? Guess you wouldn't wanna be inconsistent, if your hypocrisy fouls up every discussion you enter, why shouldn't it in this one?

"Right.. but Indonesia has no right to tell the Hindu mob the same, right? Or were you under the delusion Bali was an independant nation? Who's the goose now?"

No. I know Bali is not an independant nation, just a Hindu island.
But that shouldn't stop your mob , just look at East Timor, you and yours showed the world there how its your way or else.
You see the reason Muslims are so hated in the world is that you are arrogant hypocrites who expect every one to respect your little fantasy but you ignore others.
I"m a proud atheist, I think all religion is bullshit, but yours wins hands down for the biggest losers.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 11:20am:

[quote] Not to mention the fact they're avid pig eaters. So tell me soren, do you believe Muslims in the city of Hume or in Lakemba in Sydney should have a right to repel laws that Canberra deems they must uphold?? Guess you wouldn't wanna be inconsistent, if your hypocrisy fouls up every discussion you enter, why shouldn't it in this one?

Wrong question, as always.
The question should be - is it for Canberra or Macquarie Street to legislate on what Muslims, as Muslims, wear to the beaches of Lakemba.
But of course that does not work not because Lakemba is miles from the beaches but because it is not a Muslim island incorpoirated into Australia. There is no Muslim claim to Lakemba, no mulism law or jurisdiction applies just because a lot of them live there (30 percent of the total poulation).

But it is telling that subliminally you are already treating Lakemba as if it was some sort of 'muslim area' where muslims rules are supposed to hold sway, like bali was  hindu and timor Christian  before the Muslims came to Indonesia.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 10:49am:

Yeh how dare Muslims meddle in their own country, the cheek of it. Wait.. when it's your own country, it's not called meddling. When the Australian government legislates to manage Australian society, is that meddling? How would you greet someone from a neighbouring country claiming Australia has no right to decide the standards within it's own borders? Knowing how much of a hypocrite you are, I already know the answer.

The Australian government isn't legislating some law based on what, say, what Catholics believe in, to be enforced in a heavily populated non-catholic area. If they were I'd be just as critical of their meddling. Australia has a right to decide standards within it's borders, but not based on one religious belief over another. This is just another example of the intolerence of Muslims and their pushy nature.

the intolerance and oppressive nature of islam is apparent by the muslims attitude here.

imagine if one lived within a islamic country ?
try saying this in a muslim chat (aussie based) site - you'll get deleted and banned ASAP.

Really the hypocrisy on this issue is astounding. Most of those here denouncing Indonesia's right to legislate as they see fit within their own borders, are the same squeaky wheels that demand oil everytime the Muslims of Australia even suggest legislation should take them into consideration, let alone demanding how the government should legislate.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 8:45pm:

Really the hypocrisy on this issue is astounding.

Well, it's just part of the massive global cinspiracy against Islam. Everybody know that.

abu - the muslims way is to reduce peoples freedoms.  The wests way is to give them.

ie - muslims are intolerant and oppressive.  The West is tolerant.

eg - in a muslim chatroom, there is no "west" forum.
Here, there is a muslim forum.

As far as I'm concerned Bali can do whatever it likes. I will never give Indonesia a cent of my money. Tourist dollars or otherwise. I was very angry when Australia gave them a billion dollars on top of the tens or hundreds of millions we give them every year. They don't like us. They use our money, equipment and training to murder Western Papuans.

They have a right to set standards for their society, and I don't have a problem unless it causes harm to the young or innocent. Same as I have argued for Australia.

Quote:

eg - in a muslim chatroom, there is no "west" forum. Here, there is a muslim forum.

Well that's it, you converted me to 'westism' :)

The reason you have an Islamic forum here, is because you love talking about Islam so much, that freediver wanted to move your infatuation with Islam out of everyones way and into a seperate forum.

Muslim sites on the other hand, couldn't care less about talking about the West. There might be an occasional topic that's relevant, but nothing like your infatuation.

That's right, abu. And if you can refrain from your sarcasm and insecurities for a moment, why don't you think about the reasons why this is the case?

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 20^th, 2008 at 11:20am:

I don't think any Muslim in Australia has ever claimed bikinis should be banned.

Hilaly (uncovered meat statement), Trad, and every Muslim who wears the bedsheet with only a slit around the eyes to see through.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 21^st, 2008 at 1:59pm:

Quote: your infatuation with Islam [quote]your infatuation.

I think the word you are groping for is irritation.

Hilaly did not state Australia has no right to legislate that women may uncover themselves. He indicated that it leads to a loose society that is obsessed with sexuality, but that's about it.

Trad, I've never heard say anything on the issue, please do enlighten us.

As for Muslims who cover themselves, that's their own personal choice, not your business.

But it seems to be the Indonesian government's business to dictate to non-muslims what they should wear.

Aren't you lucky you live in a country where it's government doesn't do that?

All this is is Muslim arrogance, once again demanding others adhere to their belief system.

Generally laws limit what level of clothing you can take off, not what level of clothing you can put on.

We're talking about public decency and nudity, you're talking about restricting peoples rights to the privacy of their own bodies.

And from the other side of your mouth, you claim to be the big believer in personal freedom.

Quote:

Generally laws limit what level of clothing you can take off, not what level of clothing you can put on.

So?


Quote:

We're talking about public decency and nudity, you're talking about restricting peoples rights to the privacy of their own bodies

No, you're talking about forcing Islam's dress code onto non-muslims. I'm not restricting anyone. You are.


Quote:

And from the other side of your mouth, you claim to be the big believer in personal freedom.

I am. That's why I'm against religions or governments dictating to people what they should wear.

Quote:

I think the word you are groping for is irritation. Irritation?

Try, revulsion, disgust, dismay, abhorrence, incredulity, for my reaction to Islam, and retarded, violent, myopic, hypocritical, obscene, and totalitarian, as my description of Islam.

By their actions they shall be judged, and their actions always speak for themselves, as repressive, intolerant, and violent.

Quote:

No, you're talking about forcing Islam's dress code onto non-muslims. I'm not restricting anyone. You are.

No more than Western Democracies enforce their dress code onto nudists.

HAHAHAHA!

You have to do better than that, what a horrible analogy! And so typical of your defence of an oppressive religion.

The analogy is quite relevant.

In Bali, there's people who wish to expose more of their bodies than the law permits, and the society is comfortable with. They should conform to the societies limits of public decency. In their homes they can do as they please.

Likewise in Australia, nudists are free to do as they please in their homes, but in public, they must observe the limits imposed on them by societies standards and the law.

Just because you have no comeback to answer the analogy, doesn't mean the analogy is horrible.

There's a difference between societies standards and religious standards that are at odds with other religions. Most people in Australia would agree with our standards of dress in public (aside from the rare nudist who really does want to parade around everywhere wearing nothing) and if you want to wear more, you are entitled to. However forcing a moral dress code based on one religious view onto people who do not belong to that religion is oppressive, arrogant and typical of Islam. A very intolerant religion and one that is at odds with personal freedom and independent thought.

God made us beautiful.

God made us able to appreciate beauty.

What kind of sick God would want you to be ashamed of something so beautiful and natural as one of his creations?

Well, the Muslim God does not trust it's men to behave correctly if they see any more of a woman's body than her eyes. The Muslim God does not trust it's followers to have a little personal responsibility. The Muslim God does not trust it's lustful men, and blames the female form for their lack of self control. Solution? Cover them up. Cover EVERYONE up! That's the Muslim way.

So, let me get this straight....

If I saw a woman walking down the street and was overcome with lustful desires for her, it is her fault for being a woman, not my fault for being totally unable to control myself?

That's the Islamic explanation.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 12:43pm:

So, let me get this straight.... If I saw a woman walking down the street and was overcome with lustful desires for her, it is her fault for being a woman, not my fault for being totally unable to control myself?

No...try again dumbo.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 12:37pm:

Well, the Muslim God does not trust it's men to behave correctly if they see any more of a woman's body than her eyes. The Muslim God does not trust it's followers to have a little personal responsibility. The Muslim God does not trust it's lustful men, and blames the female form for their lack of self control. Solution? Cover them up. Cover EVERYONE up! That's the Muslim way.

wrong again. Why am I not surprised.

Its about respect. We respect our woman, and do not treat them as sexual objects.

You should try it sometime.

Abu said when married lust is encouraged in Islam.

So if she is your 'property' you are plenty allowed to treat her as a sexual object?

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 9:21pm:

[quote] Its about respect. We respect our woman, and do not treat them as sexual objects.

You treat them as only sexual objects. It's about fear and loathing. You hate them for having such a power over you like your lust and you fear that power. That is why you have institutionalised their subjugation and are unable to free yourselves from that mindset. One more example of the mind-forged shackles of pagan tribal Islam.

Your paradise is nothing but a hope for the sensuous pleasure garden, for sexual andd sensual objects of pleasure. If there was only one reason why Islam cannot possible be true it is its vision of paradise. What a crude, horny place, designed to slake the segregated warrior's life-long satyritis.

And it has no word or place for the women who get to paradise, except as vessels of pleasure. Theree is no art of speaking to women in islam. There is no feast of soul, flow of reason with women. They are. literally, your untouchables whom you cannot resist.
I wonder - are these virgins in paradise, are they going to be muslim girls? Or are you going to have kuffir dhimmis let into paradise just to pleasure the faithful?
That's is obvious one though too far. Allah's paradise is just as bodily, just as sensuous, just as material as this life. It is a paradise for warriirs who miised out on earthly booty, fashioned by the messanger the way he would have liked paradise to be.
Do the muslim girls who go to heaven get 72 strapping Swedish lads to do their bidding?

I can't undertsand how anyone can believe in this crude, awkward artless parody. But obviously there are grown men and women who believe it and I pass them every day on the steeet- that fills me with dread. I can't see a chance for common ground in this.
Can anyone?

I raised that before and everyone ignored me.

I asked how the Muslims can be so chaste and moral, yet in Heaven they get virgins and young boys for their sexual pleasure, they are gifted with great virility and what have you.

It seems like they are scared of themselves and feel disgusted with who they are.

Soren wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:07pm:

Lestat wrote on Sep 23rd, 2008 at 9:21pm: [quote] Its about respect. We respect our woman, and do not treat them as sexual objects. You treat them as only sexual objects. It's about fear and loathing. You hate them for having such a power over you like your lust and you fear that power. That is why you have institutionalised their subjugation and are unable to free yourselves from that mindset. One more example of the mind-forged shackles of pagan tribal Islam. Your paradise is nothing but a hope for the sensuous pleasure garden, for sexual andd sensual objects of pleasure. If there was only one reason why Islam cannot possible be true it is its vision of paradise. What a crude, horny place, designed to slake the segregated warrior's life-long satyritis. And it has no word or place for the women who get to paradise, except as vessels of pleasure. Theree is no art of speaking to women in islam. There is no feast of soul, flow of reason with women. They are. literally, your untouchables whom you cannot resist. I wonder - are these virgins in paradise, are they going to be muslim girls? Or are you going to have kuffir dhillis let into paradise just to pleasure the faithful? That's is obvious one though too far. paradise is just as bodily, just as sensuous, just as material as this life. Do the muslim girls who go to heaven get 72 strapping Swedish lads to do their bidding? I can't undertsand how anyone can believe in this crude, awkward artless parody. But obviously there are grown men and women who believe it and I pass them every day on the steeet- that fills me with dread. I can't see a chance for common ground in this. Can anyone?

lol..I never realised someone could fit so much sh(t in one post.

Why would I fear and loath my wife? She's my wife...I don't fear her.

As for treating woman like sexual objects, sorry, but it is you that dress your woman in bikini's and short skirts. You want your woman to look like sluts, and you treat them accordingly...and sadly enough you actually attack and condem woman who choose to dress modestly.

For you it isn't about power or fear...it is just straight out perversion. You get off on seeing woman, and you want to see more..and more. You pretend that its about there' freedoms' in order to convince them that to dress less is best..so that you can use your own body as an amusement park late at night...thats right....I bet that woman are no more then 'masturbation' material for your sick fantasies.

You clearly have some sexual issue's....and can only get off by ogling naked woman. I pity you.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 9:30pm:

Abu said when married lust is encouraged in Islam. So if she is your 'property' you are plenty allowed to treat her as a sexual object?

Oh right..so if you lust for your wife then you must treat her as a sexual object.

Righteo.....

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:17pm:

lol..I never realised someone could fit so much sh(t in one post. Why would I fear and loath my wife? She's my wife...I don't fear her. As for treating woman like sexual objects, sorry, but it is you that dress your woman in bikini's and short skirts. You want your woman to look like sluts, and you treat them accordingly...and sadly enough you actually attack and condem woman who choose to dress modestly. For you it isn't about power or fear...it is just straight out perversion. You get off on seeing woman, and you want to see more..and more. You pretend that its about there' freedoms' in order to convince them that to dress less is best..so that you can use your own body as an amusement park late at night...thats right....I bet that woman are no more then 'masturbation' material for your sick fantasies. You clearly have some sexual issue's....and can only get off by ogling naked woman. I pity you.

When we see a woman in a bikini, we do not view her as a sexual object, we see her as a girl who is enjoying a hot day at the beach, or wearing less clothes to cool her body down.

Sure she might be attractive, but she isn't an 'object'.

They don't look like sluts. They look like women. You are the one with the sexual deviancies if you see a woman, who is not being sexual in any way and is just showing a bit of skin, as a sexual object.

It is not a sexual perversion, it is very common these days and people have become accustomed to it and it doesn't get their hearts racing.

You are a sicko les. I bet you have a really hard time even talking to women.

Let's go back to the temptation of Adam and Eve in the garden by the serpent. Remember they used to be naked until they were taught modesty?

Now, if Muslims feel so lusty (don't say you don't, you project it on to us so obviously you do), maybe Muslims have the souls most corrupted by Satan.

We aren't all like you lot. Accept it.

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:22pm:

easel wrote on Sep 23rd, 2008 at 9:30pm: Abu said when married lust is encouraged in Islam. So if she is your 'property' you are plenty allowed to treat her as a sexual object? Oh right..so if you lust for your wife then you must treat her as a sexual object. Righteo.....

lust n. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:15pm:

I raised that before and everyone ignored me. I asked how the Muslims can be so chaste and moral, yet in Heaven they get virgins and young boys for their sexual pleasure, they are gifted with great virility and what have you. It seems like they are scared of themselves and feel disgusted with who they are.

Everyone ignores you because your a dip sh(t..thats why.

Young boys for sexual pleasure?? First I've ever heard of that. I suggest that if your going to make silly remarks perhaps you ought to get a clue first, before you make yourself look foolish. Then again..Abu has made you look foolish so many times that I guess your getting used to it.

So because we are 'so moral' its really because we are scared of 'ourselves' and feel 'disgusted'. lol....

First Soren reckons I'm afraid of my wife...and now you reckon I'm scared of myself. Billions of muslims all around the world...all afraid of 'ourselves'.

Do you truly believe this. Could anyone possibly be so stupid?

Quote:

When we see a woman in a bikini, we do not view her as a sexual object, we see her as a girl who is enjoying a hot day at the beach, or wearing less clothes to cool her body down.

Right...thats why woman sexuality is used to advertise just about every product there is. It is well known that sex sells, place a bikini clad woman in an add selling just about anything and it sells.

Your full of sh(t.


Quote:

Sure she might be attractive, but she isn't an 'object'.

So men don't ogle over woman in bikini's. Not sure what planet you live on......


Quote:

They don't look like sluts. They look like women. You are the one with the sexual deviancies if you see a woman, who is not being sexual in any way and is just showing a bit of skin, as a sexual object.

Have you ever been to a nightclub. You are deluded if you don't believe that men in general see woman at clubs in short skirts as a sexual object...to be taken.

Your seriously deluded if you don't think that many guys go to the beach for a perve.


Quote:

It is not a sexual perversion, it is very common these days and people have become accustomed to it and it doesn't get their hearts racing.

Yes...ofcourse, woman in bikini's is a sign of modesty, and men never ever look at them in a sexual way. What was I thinking.


Quote:

You are a sicko les. I bet you have a really hard time even talking to women.

lol...whatever. You seem to know an awful lot about me. Yes..I have such a hard time talking to my Australian anglo saxon wife....and all the numerous female friends I have .....not sure how I met them considering I have such a hard time even talking to woman.

:D


Quote:

Let's go back to the temptation of Adam and Eve in the garden by the serpent. Remember they used to be naked until they were taught modesty?

Not even gonna bother discussing this with you...you are already wrong on so many levels that you clearly have no idea.

Ever heard of the tree of knowledge??


Quote:

Now, if Muslims feel so lusty (don't say you don't, you project it on to us so obviously you do), maybe Muslims have the souls most corrupted by Satan.

hehe..so now i'm some 'lusty deviat'. And you base this on what...considering you don't know me, you base your whole opinion on me because I happen to be muslim. Well done Easel...spoken like a true bigot. Your bikini clad mother must be proud. ;)

Right...so because we are modest, chaste and respectful to woman, and respect modesty our souls have been corrupted by Satan.

This statement of yours says more about you then you then it does about 'muslims'.


Quote:

We aren't all like you lot. Accept it.

And thank God for that.

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:28pm:

Everyone ignores you because your a dip sh(t..thats why. Young boys for sexual pleasure?? First I've ever heard of that. I suggest that if your going to make silly remarks perhaps you ought to get a clue first, before you make yourself look foolish. Then again..Abu has made you look foolish so many times that I guess your getting used to it. So because we are 'so moral' its really because we are scared of 'ourselves' and feel 'disgusted'. lol.... First Soren reckons I'm afraid of my wife...and now you reckon I'm scared of myself. Billions of muslims all around the world...all afraid of 'ourselves'. Do you truly believe this. Could anyone possibly be so stupid?

I am?

I heard your lot get 72 women and 28 boys. Abu makes me look foolish? As foolish as you make yourself look?

You are scared that we can't control our desires, because you feel you can't. People like you should be castrated, so then the women won't have to cover up and have fear of being raped and lusted after.

I bet you think it wasn't Bilal Skaf's fault either, it was those slutty western girls with their tight tops wasn't it?

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:17pm:

Soren wrote on Sep 23rd, 2008 at 10:07pm: [quote author=Lestat33 link=1221870350/30#31 date=1222168877][quote] Its about respect. We respect our woman, and do not treat them as sexual objects. You clearly have some sexual issue's....and can only get off by ogling naked woman. I pity you.

It's issues, not issue's.

Anyway, even if you don't believe me,  everyone knows about the ...


Sex and the single-minded Muslim
Young, unmarried men . . . extreme aggression . . . sexual repression. Is there a link?
Cherry Potter
IF WE REALLY want to understand the mindset of the Muslim fundamentalists, it’s time that the issue of sexual politics was addressed head on. Just how does the total domination of women in fundamentalist societies affect the men? After all, when it comes to sex, both genders are involved. And when it comes to extreme forms of aggression and violence, sublimated sexual fear and repression are all too often at the root of the problem.

Fundamentalists demand that women be veiled and segregated at every level of society, starting at puberty. Public displays of affection between husbands and wives are forbidden. Wife-beating is so prevalent, many see it as a normal part of marriage. In bed any sexual position where the woman is on top is haram or sinful. It’s difficult to imagine how either gender can enjoy intimacy in such a climate.

So what is the effect on young unmarried men who, like youths the world over, are subject to a whole host of fears about their burgeoning sexuality? What do they do with their unacceptable sexual fantasies fuelled by the strict regime and the temptations of the mysterious, hidden feminine world? Too often they project their self-disgust on to their object of desire, whom they blame for causing them to have “impure” thoughts. Twenty-five years ago when Ayatollah Khomeini took over Iran, women who let a single lock of hair fall beneath their headscarves were beaten for abusing their sexual power. Women who had worn make-up and Western dress under the Shah were denigrated as “Westoxicated”. And the supposedly sexually licentious West became, and remains, “the Great Satan”, purveyor of all evil that must be destroyed.

The connections between sexual repression, extreme violence and a male obsession with war and death are recognisable in the West. In America Christian Reconstructionists, a fundamentalist sect, also advocate the death penalty for adultery, homosexuality and “unchastity before marriage” (but for women only). Studies of the psychology of Fascism show how the Nazi cult of obeying, adoring and fearing the Führer is rooted in the patriarchal family obeying, adoring and fearing the father. The Nazis, like modern Islamic and Christian fundamentalists, were also obsessed with virgins and women as submissive housewives and perfect mothers. Their extreme masculinity values, above all else, male bonding and sacrificing their lives for the fatherland’s high ideals of racial or religious purity, with the promise of glorious martyrdom.

Fascist mindsets promote the abuse and denigration of “impure” women. In modern Islamist Tehran there is a thriving sex trade — an estimated 84,000 women are in prostitution and thousands of girls are sold as sex slaves across the Arab world.

Arguably such societies are in the grip of mass psychosis. Like a paranoid psychotic they split the world between those they hopelessly idealise as pure and good, and those they denigrate as evil and out to destroy them. It is not unusual for a paranoid psychotic to nurture delusions of grandeur and an imaginary hotline to God.

Western and Islamic feminists have for too long agonised about what right we have to assume that the sexual freedoms enjoyed by Western women should be a global gold standard of how to live in the modern world. The debate always becomes ensnared in multiculturalism — that we must respect the diversity of beliefs and traditions even if these include human rights abuses of women in Muslim countries. But we only have to look around us to see how, in the most sophisticated levels of society where women are seen as equal, men also benefit — they are more tolerant, more able to enjoy intimacy and less aggressive towards women and each other. So attitudes towards gender and sexuality are not just a feminist issue for women to discuss while the men set about combating terrorism.

To understand the violence of the fundamentalist fascist mentality, skewed gender relations and repressed sexuality, far from being peripheral, have to be confronted head on.

The author is a freelance writer and psychotherapist.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article556339.ece

Your Anglo-Saxon wife Lestat? Is that the one you send faxes to, or have I got you confused with someone else?

I base my opinion of you on what you write. And you say that all men feel the way you say, you are projecting your own feelings on to others and assuming we are all the same.

Therefore, I think you are a lustful, vile creature.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:44pm:

You are what? That stupid. Yeah...I thought so. Oh well...


Quote:

I heard your lot get 72 women and 28 boys.

28 boys? And where did you hear this?


Quote:

Abu makes me look foolish? As foolish as you make yourself look?

Yeah...its not hard to do...you make it so easy for him.

How have I made myself look foolish. I'm not the one making ridiculous claims about people I don't know...you are.


Quote:

You are scared that we can't control our desires, because you feel you can't. People like you should be castrated, so then the women won't have to cover up and have fear of being raped and lusted after.

And there you go again...making ridiculous claims about people you don't know, and making yourself look foolish.

So now I should be castrated. Keep up the good work Easel...your really showing your true colors now. :D


Quote:

I bet you think it wasn't Bilal Skaf's fault either, it was those slutty western girls with their tight tops wasn't it?

No it wasn't....but hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your bigotted tirade. Please continue :)

Quote:

You treat them as only sexual objects. It's about fear and loathing

You seem to forget soren, I have seen both sides of the coin (from the inside). I've seen how Western society treats and views women (the reality, not the politically correct 'ideal') and I've seen how Muslims and Islam treats women.

The Western reality is truly despicable, and you know it. You can't hide from the reality that you know inside yourself. If you've ever been a member of a local footy club, or at a boy's night out or BBQ, you know the kind of conversations that go on, and the really despicable way in which Western society looks at women. They are just considered to be two legs carrying around a sperm-deposit box, and the actual descriptions men in this society use are actually far more graphic and obscene (I'm toning it down, because I can't bring myself to repeat the absolute filth I've heard come out of some people's mouths). That's why jenny Brockie has episodes of Insight about it, that's why High schools have special parts in their curriculums about it. because everyone knows that men in Western societies, in Australia in particular have a very sick and twisted view of women, especially amongst football players, which is a large proportion of the populace. They objectify them to the extreme, and consider them to be nothing more than sexual 'amenities'. This is not the case for all Australians, and I apologise in advance to any decent minded Aussie out there who has the sense not to be part of this deeply ingrained aspect of Australian culture. And Lestat has already detailed the view of mainstream media and it's treatment of women as nothing more than a commodity that can sell anything the male gender happens to need (or not even need) to purchase, by appealing to his base desires and luring him through the misuse of her body.

Islam on the other hand, takes every measure possible to ensure that women are protected and are seen for themselves and their intellect and their personality. This is why women dress in a most modest manner, in order to dispel right from the outset that her position in society is based on her appearance or her sexuality. Now that doesn't mean abuse of women in Muslim societies doesn't occur, it does, domestic abuse occurs, discrimination occurs, but they occur in all societies (no, Western society hasn't stamped them out), but society's view of women is as a protected and sacred part of it's own soul. The woman is someone's mother, she is someone's sister, she is someone's daughter, perhaps someones grandmother or loved and respected aunty. How can it be befitting to treat her like she is a 'walking orifice' that you wanna have your wicked way with? Islam sees her as a person, as a soul, as a mind, not just a body that can be utilised for men's own desires or to sell products.This is how Islam views the woman, and this is the epitome of respect if you ask me. Personally I recognised this even before becoming a Muslim, and it's something I found deeply beautiful and touching about Islamic society and culture is that women were so highly regarded and respected, as human beings, not as sexual 'amenities'.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:48pm:

Your Anglo-Saxon wife Lestat? Is that the one you send faxes to, or have I got you confused with someone else? I base my opinion of you on what you write. And you say that all men feel the way you say, you are projecting your own feelings on to others and assuming we are all the same. Therefore, I think you are a lustful, vile creature.

Send faxes to my wife?? What the hell are you on about. I think you need to get a grip and stop frothing at the mouth. Really....these things that you are saying about me do not reflect well on you....and its amusing that you can't see this.

hehe....Easel....perhaps others can read some of the rubbish you have posted, and then they can decide who the vile lustful creature is.

Please...don't stop...you have well and truly shot yourself in the foot. You are nothing but a bigot, and you have truly shown that your opinion in any matter to do with Islam cannot be taken seriously...as you harbour so much hate in your heart for muslims that is both illogical and sick.

Lestat, you're the really smart one, you keep telling me, so, please, tell me the psychological term for what someone is doing when they are claiming that people think x way because 'everyone' does? It's something to do with projecting their own thoughts on to others because they have extremely limited insight and don't want to believe there is something wrong (according to their personal beliefs) with them and that everyone must be like this.

Lestat, I can tell you, with 100% honesty, that I have been to the beach and admired the girls and never once lusted (got aroused) by any of them. I'm not as primitive as you are, and don't think like you do, and do not see every woman as a sexual opportunity.

I wouldn't immediately assume you are the same as me, so why do you assume every male is the same as you?

I still think for the safety of the community you need a castration.

Quote:

The Western reality is truly despicable, and you know it.

Funnily enough, the despicable westerners do not need to dress women in tents to stop themselves from raping them, now what group condones that idiocy?

Also, I think you are saying more about yourself than western society, when you extrapolate the behaviour of illiterate uncouth yobbos as the norm, perhaps your self loathing is what drove you into a cult?

Quote:

When we see a woman in a bikini, we do not view her as a sexual object, we see her as a girl who is enjoying a hot day at the beach, or wearing less clothes to cool her body down.

Well somebody's certainly enjoying the hot day at the beach, and I think it's more than just the bikini-clad girl. Just be honest and admit it, you like women walking around half naked, because it is sexually arousing. It's got nothing to do with some noble idea of furthering their personal freedoms, it's good for you as a male. You forget easel, we are males also, we know exactly how you're thinking. We might have the good sense and faith to limit our urges to that which is halal (islamically permissible) but we're still men nonetheless. So don't give us all this noble idealistic garbage. Just be honest for once.


Quote:

Therefore, I think you are a lustful, vile creature.

Look either you're a normal male like us, or you're a eunuch... in which case I'd admit you are just trying to advance women's genuine rights to spill their curves all over the place.  ;D

I am not very lusty. At all.

Take my word for it.

I hardly experience physical attraction anymore, it's all emotional for me.

Doesn't mean I can't admire beauty, nor does it mean I can't be emotionally attracted/turned on.

I suppose I have too much control over my base instincts?

Or maybe I have low testosterone? Who knows what it is.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:

Lestat, you're the really smart one, you keep telling me, so, please, tell me the psychological term for what someone is doing when they are claiming that people think x way because 'everyone' does? It's something to do with projecting their own thoughts on to others because they have extremely limited insight and don't want to believe there is something wrong (according to their personal beliefs) with them and that everyone must be like this.

Easel...believe it or not I have not always been a practising muslim. I've played for footy clubs, nearly all my mates are non-muslims....and the majority of my female friends are non-muslims. I've spent most of my life living an Australian life, and even though I always believed, thanks be to Allah, have only truly embrased and practised my religon in the past 5 years.

And yes...that 'Australian' life came with all those things that you would see as 'normal'....so I have seen how Australian men view woman...and have seen how woman struggle to fit in..to be accepted by these 'men'. I've seen how woman starve themselves, in order to have the 'body' expected of them. I've seen how woman go through torture to ensure there's no hair in the wrong places, so that they are more asthetically pleasing to the guys. I've been out with girls who on nights that were absolutely freezing...wearing short mini's, teeth shattering in the cold. I've even had a female friend who sadly suffered from bulemia cause her tosser boyfriend used to call her fat, and for reasons I never understood she was infatuated by him.

And probably the most saddest thing yet all to common, is the number of woman I have known and met who had such a low self esteem that they felt the only way they could be accepted was to look good.

You say I am 'projecting my thoughts'..but you are so off the mark its not funny. I was just another average Aussie bloke, used to go clubbing, partied with my mates every weekend, went out chasing chicks, had many many female friends...and many females that were 'more then friends'...if you know what I mean. I never had any problems meeting woman...and am still friends with plenty...and even ended up marrying one.

I know how woman are portrayed in society, and if you truly believe that woman are respected in Australian culture, especially by young men, then you are either deliberately lying, or you really have no idea.

I seriously suggest you go out one Saturday night..try the casino..or maybe QBH. Take a female friend out clubbing, spend a couple of hours on the dancefloor, and see how often she will be harrased by men, despite the fact that she is there with you.


easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:

Lestat, I can tell you, with 100% honesty, that I have been to the beach and admired the girls and never once lusted (got aroused) by any of them. I'm not as primitive as you are, and don't think like you do, and do not see every woman as a sexual opportunity.

So you went to the beach and admired the girls without 'getting lusted'. Did you admire the guys aswell.

As I said...your full of sh(t.


easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:

I wouldn't immediately assume you are the same as me, so why do you assume every male is the same as you?

I know every male is not the same as me. As I said...I respect woman, and unlike you...I"m not a bigot.

So yes..you are right, we are very different.


easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:01pm:

I still think for the safety of the community you need a castration.

So says the sexual deviat who wants to ogle women in bikini's...not because he lusts after them, but only because he likes to 'admire' them.

hhehe. yeah right.

mozzaok wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:04pm:

Quote: The Western reality is truly despicable, and you know it. Funnily enough, the despicable westerners do not need to dress women in tents to stop themselves from raping them, now what group condones that idiocy?

Thats right Mozz...they just go ahead and rape them anyway.

Australia has one of the highest rates of rape and domestic violence in the world. This is fact.

One of the more disgusting stats is the number of woman raped by there alcohol fueled boyfriends/husbands.

I think you'll find that rape of woman is a far larger problem in the west then it is in muslim countries.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:16pm:

I am not very lusty. At all. Take my word for it. I hardly experience physical attraction anymore, it's all emotional for me. Doesn't mean I can't admire beauty, nor does it mean I can't be emotionally attracted/turned on. I suppose I have too much control over my base instincts? Or maybe I have low testosterone? Who knows what it is.

Maybe you just can't get it up anymore. Impotency maybe.

Oh well...lifes a b(tch. :D

Quote:

Thats right Mozz...they just go ahead and rape them anyway. Australia has one of the highest rates of rape and domestic violence in the world. This is fact. One of the more disgusting stats is the number of woman raped by there alcohol fueled boyfriends/husbands. I think you'll find that rape of woman is a far larger problem in the west then it is in muslim countries.

I thought there was no such thing as rape between a Muslim man and his wife, and he is allowed to beat her if she doesn't consent.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 10:58pm:

Quote: You treat them as only sexual objects. It's about fear and loathing You seem to forget soren, I have seen both sides of the coin (from the inside). I've seen how Western society treats and views women (the reality, not the politically correct 'ideal') and I've seen how Muslims and Islam treats women. The Western reality is truly despicable, and you know it. You can't hide from the reality that you know inside yourself. If you've ever been a member of a local footy club, or at a boy's night out or BBQ, you know the kind of conversations that go on, and the really despicable way in which Western society looks at women. They are just considered to be two legs carrying around a sperm-deposit box, and the actual descriptions men in this society use are actually far more graphic and obscene (I'm toning it down, because I can't bring myself to repeat the absolute filth I've heard come out of some people's mouths). That's why jenny Brockie has episodes of Insight about it, that's why High schools have special parts in their curriculums about it. because everyone knows that men in Western societies, in Australia in particular have a very sick and twisted view of women, especially amongst football players, which is a large proportion of the populace. They objectify them to the extreme, and consider them to be nothing more than sexual 'amenities'. This is not the case for all Australians, and I apologise in advance to any decent minded Aussie out there who has the sense not to be part of this deeply ingrained aspect of Australian culture. And Lestat has already detailed the view of mainstream media and it's treatment of women as nothing more than a commodity that can sell anything the male gender happens to need (or not even need) to purchase, by appealing to his base desires and luring him through the misuse of her body. Islam on the other hand, takes every measure possible to ensure that women are protected and are seen for themselves and their intellect and their personality. This is why women dress in a most modest manner, in order to dispel right from the outset that her position in society is based on her appearance or her sexuality. Now that doesn't mean abuse of women in Muslim societies doesn't occur, it does, domestic abuse occurs, discrimination occurs, but they occur in all societies (no, Western society hasn't stamped them out), but society's view of women is as a protected and sacred part of it's own soul. The woman is someone's mother, she is someone's sister, she is someone's daughter, perhaps someones grandmother or loved and respected aunty. How can it be befitting to treat her like she is a 'walking orifice' that you wanna have your wicked way with? Islam sees her as a person, as a soul, as a mind, not just a body that can be utilised for men's own desires or to sell products.This is how Islam views the woman, and this is the epitome of respect if you ask me. Personally I recognised this even before becoming a Muslim, and it's something I found deeply beautiful and touching about Islamic society and culture is that women were so highly regarded and respected, as human beings, not as sexual 'amenities'.

I think your characterisation of western society has a grain of truth but is grossly distorted by your inability to resist exaggeration and rhetorical elephantiasis. I have not grown up in such circles, my sons are not growing up in such cirles. I do not know anyone who thinks or behaves as you describe.
I do recognise also the kernel of truth in your characterisation of universal ideals that islam also shares. I do think howeveer, that you again grossly distort the actualalities of male/female relationship in islam by rhetorical idealisation. There is a Stalinist ring to the parallels you paint of the evil and the angelic.

I do not doubt or dispute for one moment that certain individiual muslims may very well be, and are, honourable, examplary, magnificent people, full of respect and brimming with what is best in us, humans.
My point is always that they are so despite some extra odds they need to overcome. For this reason they may well be the more remarkable.

easel wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:25pm:

Quote: Thats right Mozz...they just go ahead and rape them anyway. Australia has one of the highest rates of rape and domestic violence in the world. This is fact. One of the more disgusting stats is the number of woman raped by there alcohol fueled boyfriends/husbands. I think you'll find that rape of woman is a far larger problem in the west then it is in muslim countries. I thought there was no such thing as rape between a Muslim man and his wife, and he is allowed to beat her if she doesn't consent.

And why would you think that? Where would you get this 'crap' from.

Perhaps it is you Easel that is projecting your thoughts onto others. Cause I can assure you, a man raping his wife is unnacceptable in Islam, and anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it.

Quote:

I think your characterisation of western society has a grain of truth but is grossly distorted by your inability to resist exaggeration and rhetorical elephantiasis. I have not grown up in such circles, my sons are not growing up in such cirles. I do not know anyone who thinks or behaves as you describe. I do recognise also the kernel of truth in your characterisation of universal ideals that islam also shares. I do think howeveer, that you again grossly distort the actualalities of male/female relationship in islam by rhetorical idealisation. There is a Stalinist ring to the parallels you paint of the evil and the angelic. I do not doubt or dispute for one moment that certain individiual muslims may very well be, and are, honourable, examplary, magnificent people, full of respect and brimming with what is best in us, humans. My point is always that they are so despite some extra odds they need to overcome. For this reason they may well be the more remarkable.

Just a grain? I suggest you go out on a Saturday night and see for yourself. I think you will be slightly disapointed.

How old are your sons? Do they go out clubbing. If yes...do you think you know what they get up too. I can guarantee you that you may think you do..but you don't.

Quote:

Maybe you just can't get it up anymore. Impotency maybe. Oh well...lifes a b(tch.

Everything works fine sweetheart.


Quote:

Easel...believe it or not I have not always been a practising muslim. I've played for footy clubs, nearly all my mates are non-muslims....and the majority of my female friends are non-muslims. I've spent most of my life living an Australian life, and thats be to Allah, have only truly embrased my religon in the past 5 years. And yes...that 'Australian' life came with all those things that you would see as 'normal'....so I have seen how Australian men view woman...and have seen how woman struggle to fit in..to be accepted by these 'men'.

You are only as good as the company you keep Lestat.


Quote:

You say I am 'projecting my thoughts'..but you are so off the mark its not funny. I was just another average Aussie bloke, used to go clubbing, partied with my mates every weekend, went out chasing chicks, had many many female friends...and many females that were 'more then friends'...if you know what I mean. I never had any problems meeting woman...and am still friends with plenty...and even ended up marrying one.

What did you just do there? You are again assuming everyone is like you and your mates.


Quote:

I know how woman are portrayed in society, and if you truly believe that woman are respected in Australian culture, especially by young men, then you are either deliberately lying, or you really have no idea.

You are only as good as the company you keep Lestat!


Quote:

I seriously suggest you go out one Saturday night..try the casino..or maybe QBH. Take a female friend out clubbing, spend a couple of hours on the dancefloor, and see how often she will be harrased by men, despite the fact that she is there with you.

I'm going out this Saturday day, if that helps? I don't like the casino, it always steals my money. And I don't like nightclubs, it is too dark, loud and impossible to have a decent conversation. Sorry?

Not every single person fits the description of the people you describe. Everyone is different.

Lestat wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2008 at 11:31pm:

easel wrote on Sep 23rd, 2008 at 11:25pm: Quote: Thats right Mozz...they just go ahead and rape them anyway. Australia has one of the highest rates of rape and domestic violence in the world. This is fact. One of the more disgusting stats is the number of woman raped by there alcohol fueled boyfriends/husbands. I think you'll find that rape of woman is a far larger problem in the west then it is in muslim countries. I thought there was no such thing as rape between a Muslim man and his wife, and he is allowed to beat her if she doesn't consent. And why would you think that? Where would you get this 'crap' from. Perhaps it is you Easel that is projecting your thoughts onto others. Cause I can assure you, a man raping his wife is unnacceptable in Islam, and anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it.

I thought there is no such thing as rape between a married couple in Islam? Islam promotes lust between married couples doesn't it?

Quote:

You are only as good as the company you keep Lestat.

And given that company was western raised middle class Aussie, most of whom were non-muslim, from both anglo/European families....university educated...then I take it you feel that it was this 'company' that misled me.

I actually agree with you there. It was Islam which guided me back to the right path.


Quote:

What did you just do there? You are again assuming everyone is like you and your mates.

What I did would be considered completely acceptable and normal for the youth of today. Nothing 'outrageous' by the low standards set by Australian society. By Islamic standards however....

I did what the majority of the youth of today are doing every weekend.


Quote:

You are only as good as the company you keep Lestat!

Yes...you've already said that. Given that my 'company' were products of western society, upbringing, morals and ideals, then you are not really supporting your argument..are you.


Quote:

I'm going out this Saturday day, if that helps? I don't like the casino, it always steals my money. And I don't like nightclubs, it is too dark, loud and impossible to have a decent conversation. Sorry?

So just as I thought, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You don't really know what goes on these days, what the nightlife is like, and how woman are treated and the pressures they are faced with....and more importantly, the expectations that are placed upon them...often unfairly.


Quote:

Not every single person fits the description of the people you describe. Everyone is different.

Ofcourse everyone is different...yet in many ways share similarities. Like I said...go out to the city on a Saturday night, and I guarantee you that you will see many 'different' young men...acting very similar. And you might not like what you see.  

I find it amusing that you are now saying that everyone is different, yet you have no problem tarring all muslims with the same brush.

Quote:

I thought there is no such thing as rape between a married couple in Islam? Islam promotes lust between married couples doesn't it?

You keep going on about this like there's something wrong with lust between married couples.

Lust does not justify rape. Oh sorry, I forgot. You don't feel lust....I gather this also applies to your wife as well.

Gee...you two must lead an exciting life. :D

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lust. Lust is uncontrolled sexual urges. Islam condones this. What if the wife is not in the mood and the husband is?

Lestat I am not married. Although, I almost did marry a Muslim girl, with full blessing from her family.

Lestat assuming I have a boring sex life because I am not lusty and sex crazed is a bit silly.


Quote:

And given that company was western raised middle class Aussie, most of whom were non-muslim, from both anglo/European families....university educated...then I take it you feel that it was this 'company' that misled me.

Sounds like my upbringing.


Quote:

What I did would be considered completely acceptable and normal for the youth of today. Nothing 'outrageous' by the low standards set by Australian society. By Islamic standards however.... I did what the majority of the youth of today are doing every weekend.

You don't have to be so conformist Lestat! You should be able to think for yourself and know what is right and wrong using your own moral compass. You sound like you can't think for yourself. You do what everyone else does, and now you have decided to adopt Islam because you need to be told what to do.

Go join the army.


Quote:

Yes...you've already said that. Given that my 'company' were products of western society, upbringing, morals and ideals, then you are not really supporting your argument..are you.

The very same things I am a product of!


Quote:

So just as I thought, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You don't really know what goes on these days, what the nightlife is like, and how woman are treated and the pressures they are faced with....and more importantly, the expectations that are placed upon them...often unfairly.

You are right. I haven't been to a night/dance club for about a year now. Some of my friends go to these things though. I guess I am completely out of the loop.


Quote:

I find it amusing that you are now saying that everyone is different, yet you have no problem tarring all muslims with the same brush.

All the REAL Muslims that we hear about live by the exact same code. So what's wrong with comparing them all to each other?

Quote:

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lust. Lust is uncontrolled sexual urges. Islam condones this. What if the wife is not in the mood and the husband is?

As I said, rape is not acceptable in Islam. How much more clearer can I get.


Quote:

Lestat I am not married. Although, I almost did marry a Muslim girl, with full blessing from her family.

Now I find that hard to believe. Perhaps this might be why you have a chip on your shoulder the size of Ularu.


Quote:

Lestat assuming I have a boring sex life because I am not lusty and sex crazed is a bit silly.

Mate...your the king of assumptions not I. Who said anything about your boring sex life.

Mate...if your not getting any, thats your problem. This is a politics bored...we don't need to hear about your sex life...or the lack of. ;)


Quote:

Sounds like my upbringing.

Your only as good as the company you choose. ;)


Quote:

You don't have to be so conformist Lestat! You should be able to think for yourself and know what is right and wrong using your own moral compass. You sound like you can't think for yourself. You do what everyone else does, and now you have decided to adopt Islam because you need to be told what to do.

lol..once again there you go with your assumptions.

Your really struggling now Easel...continously moving the goal posts.

If I couldn't think for myself, and was doing what everyone else did, then I would still be out partying, and being a 'true blue aussie'. It was the fact that I do think for myself that ensured I changed my life for the better, and gave up all those pathetic aussie traits, for an Islamic life. And its the best I've ever done.


Quote:

Go join the army.

And become a murderer. Now why would I do that. I understand that you may respect murderers...but I don't.

As you said..we are different.


Quote:

Yes...you've already said that. Given that my 'company' were products of western society, upbringing, morals and ideals, then you are not really supporting your argument..are you.

Quote:

The very same things I am a product of!

Exactly....


Quote:

You are right. I haven't been to a night/dance club for about a year now. Some of my friends go to these things though. I guess I am completely out of the loop.

Just as I thought. YOu have no idea how Australian men view woman...so please don't pretend that you do.


Quote:

All the REAL Muslims that we hear about live by the exact same code. So what's wrong with comparing them all to each other?

So its ok to paint all muslims with the same brush but not westerners. Just as I thought....hypocricy at its finest. And whats worst, when I highlight it to you...you attempt to justify it.

So you admit your a hypocrite then?

Lestat, not all Westerners are raised to the same standards.


Quote:

Mate...your the king of assumptions not I. Who said anything about your boring sex life.

Yet, you wrote,


Quote:

You don't feel lust....I gather this also applies to your wife as well. Gee...you two must lead an exciting life.

Referring to my non existant wife, lust, and a boring life, you are the one making assumptions of a personal and sexual nature!


Quote:

Your only as good as the company you choose.

I know! Once again Lestat, stop being so myopic. Not all Westerners have the same value system. Quite clearly the people I choose to associate with, and myself, are very different from your mates and you.


Quote:

So its ok to paint all muslims with the same brush but not westerners. Just as I thought....hypocricy at its finest. And whats worst, when I highlight it to you...you attempt to justify it.

Lestat, all Muslims are supposed to live by the same code, not all Westerners do or are they supposed to. You should also capitalise the first letter of the faith you hold so dear.

Question Lestat, in your night clubbing days, just how many designer drugs did you consume?

Lestat,


Quote:

Oh sorry, I forgot. You don't feel lust....I gather this also applies to your wife as well.

Akhi, don't you know the legal age of consent in Australia is 18?? How on earth could easel be married?

easel,


Quote:

Lestat I am not married. Although, I almost did marry a Muslim girl, with full blessing from her family.

And let me guess, they even offered to pay for the pork and beer for the wedding right?  ;D

Lestat,


Quote:

I think you'll find that rape of woman is a far larger problem in the west then it is in muslim countries.

Don't you know? It's actually much higher in the Muslim countries, but because everyone's so afraid to report it, we don't have the stats about it. But believe mozzaok when he's gonna tell you it's definitely much higher in the Muslim world. He knows, don't know how he does, but he does.

If I was a Muslim woman who got raped in a Muslim country, I'd be afraid to report it also on fear of being imprisoned, lashed or executed.

Has anyone else noticed that the Muslims who weren't always practicing Muslims are probably the worst stewards of their religion? Bitter, hypocritical, insecure, hateful, biased, bigoted and completely unable to see the forest for the trees.

I am enjoying having lestat back though. Doesn't he bring something marvelous to the Muslim community here? He's everything his beloved allah would want him to be no doubt. Truly inspiring and a great example of a great muslim.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 7:48am:

Has anyone else noticed that the Muslims who weren't always practicing Muslims are probably the worst stewards of their religion? Bitter, hypocritical, insecure, hateful, biased, bigoted and completely unable to see the forest for the trees. I am enjoying having lestat back though. Doesn't he bring something marvelous to the Muslim community here? He's everything his beloved allah would want him to be no doubt. Truly inspiring and a great example of a great muslim.

lol....I thought it was converts that are the worst. Now its 'muslims who weren't always practising'. You really are hilarious Jordan...you have no idea what you believe, hence your continuous back flipping and switching.

As for contributing to the community, you quite clearly are a reflection of everything wrong with Australian culture. Shallow, ignorant, obnoxious, and a truly great example of what makes so many Aussie's cringe in embarrasment.

Keep up the good work....;)

easel wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 12:42am:

If I was a Muslim woman who got raped in a Muslim country, I'd be afraid to report it also on fear of being imprisoned, lashed or executed.

Could you please provide an example of where a muslim woman who was raped was lashed, imprisoned or executed...in lets say, Egypt, Maylasia, Indonesia, or Turkey. In all these countries the statistics for rape are far lower then Australia.

Just face the facts weasel...you Aussies are animals and treat your woman like dirt. Sadly enough, not only do you rape strangers, but disgustingly, you also rape your mothers, daughters and wives.

Only a sick immoral society could treat there woman in such a way. The stats don't lie.

Ohhhh....hi lestat, thanks for deflecting my assessment of you back to me, it's quite ingenious and very original. I'm pleased you think I have no idea what I believe, I mean, you'd know of course because you know everything. That's what being a muslim is all about.....knowing the truth while everyone else knows nothing. I hope your posts continue to be filled with gracious insight.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 9:01am:

Ohhhh....hi lestat, thanks for deflecting my assessment of you back to me, it's quite ingenious and very original. I'm pleased you think I have no idea what I believe, I mean, you'd know of course because you know everything. That's what being a muslim is all about.....knowing the truth while everyone else knows nothing. I hope your posts continue to be filled with gracious insight.

I know far more then you...which then again isn't really saying much is it.

Ironic...you have a go at me for claiming I know everything...then you proceed to tell us what 'being a muslim' is all about.

Ah...Jordon, you just can't help shooting yourself in the foot can you. Watching you 'try' to chat with the adults is rather ammusing, unfortunately for you you somehow manage to put your foot in your moutch every time.

I would suggest that you perhaps try to proof read your posts...make sure that you don't contradict yourself, before you hit that 'post' button.

By the way, you have no idea what 'being a muslim' is all about..don't pretend that you do.

Quote:

I know far more then you...which then again isn't really saying much is it.

Yet you brag about it anyway


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Ironic...you have a go at me for claiming I know everything...then you proceed to tell us what 'being a muslim' is all about.

It's all we hear from Abu, how Muslims are always right and everyone else is wrong. So, abu is wrong in your opinion?


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Ah...Jordon, you just can't help shooting yourself in the foot can you. Watching you 'try' to chat with the adults is rather ammusing, unfortunately for you you somehow manage to put your foot in your moutch every time.

You're an adult?


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I would suggest that you perhaps try to proof read your posts...make sure that you don't contradict yourself, before you hit that 'post' button.

You make me laugh......proof reading my posts before I hit reply.....perhaps you'd like to practice what you preach?


Quote:

By the way, you have no idea what 'being a muslim' is all about..don't pretend that you do.

I'm learning about it all the time from abu...and you in some small way......and up to this point I'm not all that impressed.

jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 9:39am:

Yet you brag about it anyway

Don't confuse bragging with just stating a fact. After all, why would I brag..knowing more then you is really not much to brag about....cause really, quite clearly you don't know much at all. This is quite evident from your posts.


jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 9:39am:

It's all we hear from Abu, how Muslims are always right and everyone else is wrong. So, abu is wrong in your opinion?

Whats Abu's opinion got to do with your hypocricy? And since when did you start actually reading Abu's post and taking what he says on board?

Perhaps you should, you might finally learn something.....that of course is assuming that you are capable of learning, which I very much doubt.


jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 9:39am:

You're an adult?

Compared to you....everyone's an adult. :)


jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 9:39am:

You make me laugh......proof reading my posts before I hit reply.....perhaps you'd like to practice what you preach?

Ah yes...I forgot that your a spelling nazi. I guess when you have nothing else, then spelling is the last thing you can fall back too. Its rather common on the net....dumb ignorant pigs are often spelling nazi's.....they have to deflect there lack of opinion with something.

No...I'm talking about your habit of continously contradicting yourself in the same post...then again, you probably don't even know what 'contradicting' means...do you?


jordan484 wrote on Sep 24^th, 2008 at 9:39am:

I'm learning about it all the time from abu...and you in some small way......and up to this point I'm not all that impressed.

Mate...if my lifestyle and religous beliefs impressed a bigot like you...I would take a long hard look at myself.

Ahhh....lestat, true to form. You certainly keep me entertained here. It's actually all you do. But everyone needs to contribute something. I'm so pleased you returned, what made you reconsider?

Spelling correctly is just being courteous really, making the post easy to read and comprehend, it also shows others that you understand what you're writing. Everyone makes typos from time to time, but you seem to have a lack of understanding of the basic principles of the English language. There, their and they're are all used in different contexts, like your and you're, along with to and too. Then and than are fairly easy to differentiate, I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with those ones. Anyway, despite the fact that you think I can't learn anything, I have faith that your English can improve, with a little dedication and hard work anything's possible.

Abu why are you abandoning your Islamic principles and supporting the imposition of Islamic based rule on non-Islamic subjects? Do you actually support this legislation, or are you just taking the opportunity to wind people up?

Likewise in Australia, nudists are free to do as they please in their homes, but in public, they must observe the limits imposed on them by societies standards and the law.

Actually, we accomodate genuine nudists.

Why would I fear and loath my wife? She's my wife...I don't fear her.

hence you are allowed to uncover her uner Islamic Law.

As for treating woman like sexual objects, sorry, but it is you that dress your woman in bikini's and short skirts.

First of all, we don't own our women. Secondly we don't dress them. They are perfectly capable of dressing themselves. How they choose to dress does not imply we treat them as sex objects. It implies they feel free to dress however they please and trust men to control themselves and not treat them as objects.

You want your woman to look like sluts, and you treat them accordingly

No we don't. You just have difficulty interpretting their actions.

and sadly enough you actually attack and condem woman who choose to dress modestly

We do not do that either. We condemn men who would take away their choice because they blame women for their lack of self control.

Islam on the other hand, takes every measure possible to ensure that women are protected and are seen for themselves and their intellect and their personality. This is why women dress in a most modest manner

No, they dress in a modest manner becase otherwise they would be beaten. Beating a woman is not the same thing as protecting her. The laws that govern women inevitably lead to their oppression in Muslim countries.

Now that doesn't mean abuse of women in Muslim societies doesn't occur, it does, domestic abuse occurs, discrimination occurs, but they occur in all societies (no, Western society hasn't stamped them out),

Nor have we legislated that women should be beaten. Islam has. Just because the law says you should beat a woman does not mean it is no longer abuse. It does however mean that the beating that goes on behind closed doors is far worse.

Well somebody's certainly enjoying the hot day at the beach, and I think it's more than just the bikini-clad girl. Just be honest and admit it, you like women walking around half naked, because it is sexually arousing.

Don't put words into other people's mouths Abu.

It's got nothing to do with some noble idea of furthering their personal freedoms

Yes it has. That's what it's all about. Only a complete historical and cultural vaccuum would lead you to think otherwise.

And probably the most saddest thing yet all to common, is the number of woman I have known and met who had such a low self esteem that they felt the only way they could be accepted was to look good.

I'd choose that over women who have low self esteem because the law and their husbands beat them, because they were married off to a dirty old man at puberty.

Les, these two comments don't make sense:

Easel...believe it or not I have not always been a practising muslim.

I was just another average Aussie bloke, used to go clubbing, partied with my mates every weekend, went out chasing chicks, had many many female friends...and many females that were 'more then friends'...if you know what I mean. I never had any problems meeting woman...and am still friends with plenty...and even ended up marrying one.

How is that being a 'practicing muslim'????

I seriously suggest you go out one Saturday night..try the casino..or maybe QBH. Take a female friend out clubbing, spend a couple of hours on the dancefloor, and see how often she will be harrased by men, despite the fact that she is there with you.

So that is the worst you can come up with in a western society? That beats the way women are treated in the middle east by a long shot.

Australia has one of the highest rates of rape and domestic violence in the world. This is fact.

Crap. We may have a high reported rate of violence. In Muslim countries it is reported as law enforcement rather than violence. you are judging the two by completely different standards. The west sets far higher standards, which we don't always live up to, so you condemn us and pretend that lowering the standards is a solution, even though they would be achieved even less often.

Mate...your the king of assumptions not I. Who said anything about your boring sex life.

Lestat you were the one insisting we all 'be honest' and admit we are like how you used to be. How about you stop making assumptions about how everyone else feels, based on how you used to act and the people you used to hang out with.

The fact that some people don't handle freedom well is not an excuse to deny them that freedom. All women should not be punished with tents because a few men disrespect them for their choices. They would still disrespect them even if they did wear tents, the difference is they would marry one at puberty and beat her with impunity.

Westerners can and do move beyond seeing bare flesh as a sex object.

freediver,


Quote:

Abu why are you abandoning your Islamic principles and supporting the imposition of Islamic based rule on non-Islamic subjects? Do you actually support this legislation, or are you just taking the opportunity to wind people up?

Firstly, public decency laws should be implemented on all members of society, otherwise they'd be pointless wouldn't they?

If Papuan women migrate to Australia, can they walk down Flinders St. topless? I don't think so. Public decency laws in Australia too, also apply to all members of society, nothing too unusual about that.

Secondly, I was merely pointing out how hypocritical it is of those who always whinge and carry on that the Muslim minority here wants to influence and alter the way legislation takes place. Yet they consider it unthinkable that a Muslim country might legislate the way it sees fit, even if it is opposed by a non-Muslim minority.


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Actually, we accomodate genuine nudists

It is against public decency laws for them to walk down a public street fully starkers.


Quote:

Les, these two comments don't make sense... How is that being a 'practicing muslim'????

His two comments do make sense, re-read them. He hasn't always been a practising Muslim and he used to go out doing unIslamic stuff (prior to when he became a practising Muslim).


Quote:

Crap. We may have a high reported rate of violence. In Muslim countries it is reported as law enforcement rather than violence.

This is nonsense and you know it. Australia has a higher rate of domestic violence than any Muslim country, and the best argument you can bring is "It's not reported there, but it must be higher". Lets stick to facts and figures shall we? Leave the speculation out of it.

As I said, I don't pretend it doesn't exist in Muslim countries, sadly it does, but I really don't think it's as high as here. Alcohol is one of the major factors in domestic abuse cases, and it's almost completely absent from Muslim societies, whereas in Australia it's a central tenet of the culture, to an almost religious extent, and that's most likely why there's so much domestic violence here.


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Westerners can and do move beyond seeing bare flesh as a sex object.

What you mean is after a while you become de-sensitised to it (ie. seen one seen 'em all), which then causes you to search for even stranger things to tickle your fancy, such as homosexuality, incest etc.

Quote:

Yet they consider it unthinkable that a Muslim country might legislate the way it sees fit,

This is because nobody (and this includes you, Mr Hizb) belives that what are called 'muslim countries' are actually governed in the interest of their peoples or indeed that they have legitimate governments, except, funnily enough, the government of the two countries currently subject to robust civilising efforts.

We are all pretending that muslim countries are proper countries, constituted for the betterment of their people or civilised enough to participate in international relations with any degree of credibility.

I hasten to add that when it comes to many, many non-muslim countries, we are all also pretending. There are great many more 'as if' countries than real ones.

soren - yes, many are leaving islam

"Here is my partial translation of the AL-Jazeerah intervew between Maher
Abdallah and Shiekh Ahmed Katani talking about the issue of 6 million
muslims leaving Islam every year in Africa alone. This was a television
interview that was transcribed and I translated it into English.

Here is the original article I translated from Arabic from Al-Jezeerah's web
site.

http://www.aljazeera.net/programs/shareea/articles/2000/12/12-12-6.htm



http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=d2a233dcabd68ddb4e85383030f1f725

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2008 at 10:27pm:

[quote] What you mean is after a while you become de-sensitised to it (ie. seen one seen 'em all), which then causes you to search for even stranger things to tickle your fancy, such as homosexuality, incest etc.

So the choice is either post box ladies or homosexuality and incest?

This is why Islam has not been taken seriously as an intellectual force for centuries.
It demands respect but it only earns fear - or ridicule.

Quote:

or indeed that they have legitimate governments

whether we like their style of government or not, doesn't mean they don't have full right to legislate within their territory the way they see fit.

Likewise I don't like a lot of Australian legislation, but I recognise it's the right of the Australian government to make it as they see fit, it's certainly not the right of the Indonesian citizens to dictate how Australia should legislate.

Firstly, public decency laws should be implemented on all members of society, otherwise they'd be pointless wouldn't they?

So you are opposed to Australia having nude beaches?

Secondly, I was merely pointing out how hypocritical it is of those who always whinge and carry on that the Muslim minority here wants to influence and alter the way legislation takes place.

So do you support the law or not? Should Islamic based laws be imposed on non-Islamic people?

This is nonsense and you know it. Australia has a higher rate of domestic violence than any Muslim country

Prove it? No, you can't can you, because you know that we set completely different standards.

and the best argument you can bring is "It's not reported there, but it must be higher"

No, I'm saying it is reported there - as law enforcement. You can't expect us to believe that countries where female rape victims are punished have less domestic violence. Domestic violence is institutionalised.

What you mean is after a while you become de-sensitised to it (ie. seen one seen 'em all), which then causes you to search for even stranger things to tickle your fancy, such as homosexuality, incest etc.

Crap Abu. Maybe Islam attracts a lot of perverts and wierdos, because they seem to project a lot of strange stuff onto other normal people. Why on earth would you even suggest this?

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So you are opposed to Australia having nude beaches?

Of course I am. But the Australian government will decide it, not me, and certainly not some people in Indonesia.


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So do you support the law or not? Should Islamic based laws be imposed on non-Islamic people?

Indonesia will implement laws as they see fit, it's really nothing to do with Australians. If you don't like it, don't go there.

As for implementing Islamic law on a population, even if they're not Muslim, of course I support it. Are you suggesting an Islamic state should not implement the laws on some people because they're not Muslims? What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this?

Should democratic laws be imposed on Muslims in Australia? Do you support this?


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Prove it? No, you can't can you, because you know that we set completely different standards.

Which Muslim country has higher domestic violence rates?


Quote:

No, I'm saying it is reported there - as law enforcement. You can't expect us to believe that countries where female rape victims are punished

I don't know where you get your idea of domestic violence from, but it doesn't usually include rape, although it sometimes can. No Muslim country that I know of has law enforcement that resembles domestic violence.


Quote:

Crap Abu. Maybe Islam attracts a lot of perverts and wierdos,

Since about 99% of Muslims are born into Muslim families, I don't think you can it attracts them..


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because they seem to project a lot of strange stuff onto other normal people. Why on earth would you even suggest this?

Are you not de-sensitised to nakedness? If you see a female walking down the street with bits and pieces hanging out, do you still turn around and get mesmerised by it? If not, then you've been de-sensitised to it. Now I'd suggest that when people get de-sensitised to this kind of stuff, they have to look for other stranger things to arouse them, and this is what leads to most of the sexual deviancy in Western societies.

Quote:

As for implementing Islamic law on a population, even if they're not Muslim, of course I support it. Are you suggesting an Islamic state should not implement the laws on some people because they're not Muslims? What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this?

This is exactly why you people are the enemy and why we will not live harmoniously together.

What's ridiculous is the fact that you think it's ok for one religious group to dictate what other people not part of that religion should do. It's backwards, it's wrong and it's nonsense.

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This is exactly why you people are the enemy and why we will not live harmoniously together.

Once again you have left me dumbfounded jordan. Why on earth does this mean we can't live harmoniously?


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What's ridiculous is the fact that you think it's ok for one religious group to dictate what other people not part of that religion should do.

Nope, what I know (not believe, it's a simple reality) is that a state will implement it's laws, which are ultimately based on it's ideology, upon the citizens of the state. That's just the way things are in the world, and it's the same in every single country. As a Muslim in a non-Islamic state, I have to recognise this, and if you were a non-Muslim in an Islamic state, you too would have no choice but to recognise this.

Anyway, this is in relation to laws of public decency, and it's a simple fact that Australia implements laws of public decency which are a carry over from Christian times, and do not permit public display of genitals and breasts. According to some cultures/beliefs that would be considered you imposing your religious beliefs and modesties upon them, if they were living here as a minority. Stop being a hypocrite and just accept the facts.

Are you suggesting an Islamic state should not implement the laws on some people because they're not Muslims? What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this?

Didn't you say that's how Islamic law works?

Are you not de-sensitised to nakedness?

Not to the extent I want to have sex with family members or other men for kicks. I don't think it's a matter of desensitisation anyway. Nakedness is our natural state. It's only when a culture covers up a part of the body that it is seen as inherently sexual.

Now I'd suggest that when people get de-sensitised to this kind of stuff, they have to look for other stranger things to arouse them, and this is what leads to most of the sexual deviancy in Western societies.

That's just absurd. It's sexual conservatism that tends to lead to sexual deviancy.

jordan484 wrote on Oct 4^th, 2008 at 12:42pm:

Quote: As for implementing Islamic law on a population, even if they're not Muslim, of course I support it. Are you suggesting an Islamic state should not implement the laws on some people because they're not Muslims? What kind of ridiculous nonsense is this? This is exactly why you people are the enemy and why we will not live harmoniously together. What's ridiculous is the fact that you think it's ok for one religious group to dictate what other people not part of that religion should do. It's backwards, it's wrong and it's nonsense.

All islamic countries are corrupt to the core because they have always been tribal and Islam, grafted onto them, is itself tribal.
Secondly, sharia law, Islamic law, is barbaric.
So considering that present day muslim countries combine the culture of corruption, graft and nepotism with the barbarity of desert nomads - I don't think that these countries have the right to implement anything in the sense we undertstand rights.

(There are non-muslim countries that share the corruption but have their own form of barbarity and we regard them equally illegitimate.)

That is one of the many points of incompatiblility that cannot be resolved without changing one or the other side of the equation - barbarity and corruption on the one hand and claming rights on the other. These right, stemming from legitimacy in democratic countries,  are not due to the barbarians who have no recognisable claim to them except brute force. Which, of course, is not recognised as the legitimate sourcee of sovereign power. It is not the will of the people.

So muslim countries are attempting to redefine rights because there is little prospect  of correcting corruption and none of discarding or even reforming barbarous sharia.

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Didn't you say that's how Islamic law works?

Nope. Public decency laws must obviously apply to all citizens of a state, otherwise they wouldn't ensure public decency would they? Kind of logical no?

However, things like divorce etc. between Christians or between Jews are dealt with by their respective authorities, who they appoint.


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Not to the extent I want to have sex with family members or other men for kicks.

Well obviously it wouldn't drive all people to such deviancies, but I think it contributes. The amount of sexuality which is so openly displayed in Australian society tends to de-sensitise people to it, I think this is a fact. And that's why it doesn't really phase you so much if you see a woman fully naked at  the beach.


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Nakedness is our natural state. It's only when a culture covers up a part of the body that it is seen as inherently sexual.

Well you'd need to define natural there. Yes it's the state we're born in, but I don't think it's natural for any human to just walk around naked. That's why all societies all around the world pretty much, practise some form of covering.


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It's sexual conservatism that tends to lead to sexual deviancy.

What leads you to believe that? Perhaps you're confusing suppression with conservatism. Suppression, I agree, but conservatism, no.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 4^th, 2008 at 9:21pm:

[quote] Well you'd need to define natural there.

natural in the sense that women need to cover their faces.  

Well obviously it wouldn't drive all people to such deviancies, but I think it contributes.

Is this something you just came up with?

The amount of sexuality which is so openly displayed in Australian society

Skin and sexuality are not the same thing. It's all down to your interpretation. Most people don't see it as sexuality at all.

That's why all societies all around the world pretty much, practise some form of covering.

The more natural the state of existence, the less clothing. Obviously the people in cold places cover up, but in warmer areas women in hunter gatherer societies universally bare their breasts. Some groups wear lap covers (forget the correct term) but I suspect these have a functional role. In our natural state, clothing is functional, not cultural.

What leads you to believe that? Perhaps you're confusing suppression with conservatism. Suppression, I agree, but conservatism, no.

Japan is a good example. So is Victorian era England. Other than degree, what is the difference between conservatism and suppression?

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Is this something you just came up with?

Yep. But I think it's been shown that people desire that which they can't have, and as you move to make it more normalised, then that desire would obviously drop off, and need to be aroused in other ways.

Anyway, you're right, it's just something I came up with. But I think there's definitely something to it.


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Skin and sexuality are not the same thing.

The way the skin is usually exposed is in a very sexual way, and you know it. Stop trying to deny it.


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Most people don't see it as sexuality at all.

I watched a show on TV before about Bondi beach, and the most common thing they seemed to be doing was catching guys who were perving on women at the beach. Please freediver be honest here.


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but in warmer areas women in hunter gatherer societies universally bare their breasts

Yes they do, but rarely if ever their genitals. There's something innately sacred about that part of the body, that causes people to want to cover it. It's not just conditioning, there's something more to it.


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Other than degree, what is the difference between conservatism and suppression?

Whilst I agree that conservatism can result in suppression, they're not the same.

For instance, the Christian view that sex is inherently immoral is suppression. The Catholic priesthood, convents, the claims that all men are sinful because they're conceived through the sexual act etc. these are beliefs that have led to suppression of the natural and normal sexual desire. Conservatism on the other hand, like in Judaism and Islam, is where sex is considered a normal and natural part of life, that's encouraged and considered sacred, but only within the bounds of marriage.

Yep.

Thought so.

But I think it's been shown that people desire that which they can't have

There's a lot of things I can't have. Very few of them I desire.

The way the skin is usually exposed is in a very sexual way, and you know it. Stop trying to deny it.

It's only sexual to those who interpret it that way. That's the whole point. You shouldn;t deny women rights because of how you interpret their actions. It's up to you to keep your pants on, not them.

I watched a show on TV before about Bondi beach, and the most common thing they seemed to be doing was catching guys who were perving on women at the beach.

You realise you could have gained this insight into Australian culture from a basement in Baghdad? And that's about how useful it is.

Yes they do, but rarely if ever their genitals. There's something innately sacred about that part of the body, that causes people to want to cover it.

Either that, or it's the speargrass.

For instance, the Christian view that sex is inherently immoral is suppression. The Catholic priesthood, convents, the claims that all men are sinful because they're conceived through the sexual act etc.

Would you mind quoting the relevant bits from the Bible. You'd expect that growing up in a nominally Christian society I would have been exposed to these beliefs.

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Would you mind quoting the relevant bits from the Bible. You'd expect that growing up in a nominally Christian society I would have been exposed to these beliefs.

Although there are Bible passages that are used to substantiate the concept of "Original Sin", it is the scholarly work of St. Augustine that illustrates how Christians, for most of their history viewed sex and specifically the concept of lust.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 5^th, 2008 at 5:53pm:

Quote: Would you mind quoting the relevant bits from the Bible. You'd expect that growing up in a nominally Christian society I would have been exposed to these beliefs. Although there are Bible passages that are used to substantiate the concept of "Original Sin", it is the scholarly work of St. Augustine that illustrates how Christians, for most of their history viewed sex and specifically the concept of lust.

You are talking through your a**e.

You know nothing about Augustine except what you misheard from thirdhand sources. A bit like Mohammed's grasp  of Jewish and Christian writing.

it is the scholarly work of St. Augustine that illustrates how Christians, for most of their history viewed sex and specifically the concept of lust.

But is that because they were Christians, or because they were people?

You spend a lot of time on here pointing out the difference between what Muslims do and what Islam teaches. Why not apply the same standard to other religions? There are plenty of other words, like European or Western, that you can use to describe views that aren't necessarily based on the Bible.

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You spend a lot of time on here pointing out the difference between what Muslims do and what Islam teaches.

What some Muslims today do, who've fallen away from Islam. The case of St Augustine and people following his ideas is a little different. Bring me what Imam Shafi' or Imam Abu Hanifa or Imam Malik or Imam Hanbal said, and it'll be a different story.

Surely you can see the difference between the actions of inidvidual laypeople, who are probably quite ignorant of their religion, and the statesments, rulings and teachings of perhaps the most influential scholar of that religion. They can't even be remotely compared.

Surely you can see the difference between the actions of inidvidual laypeople, who are probably quite ignorant of their religion, and the statesments, rulings and teachings of perhaps the most influential scholar of that religion. They can't even be remotely compared.

So what you are saying is that St Augustine, rather than the Bible, is the real measure of what Christianity is really about?

The only difference I can see is that Augustine worked harder at it. But the same principle still applies.

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So what you are saying is that St Augustine, rather than the Bible, is the real measure of what Christianity is really about?

No, what I'm saying is that he's perhaps the most accepted and believed scholar on the meanings of the Bible and Christian doctrine that's ever existed, and that billions of Christians throughout history have practised and believed according to his pronouncements (including his views on sex). This you cannot deny.

And that if you were to bring Islam's most influential scholar(s) and their sayings/rulings/pronouncements, then I'd certainly not dismiss them as "This is muslims, not Islam", as you suggested I'd do.

Back to the issue of nudity and sexuality, I think that equating the two is a pavlovian response. People only find nuduty by itself sexual if they have learned from their society to associate nudity with sex. That is why genuine nudists, and those from 'native' cultures where clothes are not normally worn, do not associate nudity with sex. This is not because they have 'gotten over it', but because they never associated nudity with sex in the first place. They are not simply lying about nudity to cover up some kind of deviance. They genuinely do it for cultural rather than sexual reasons. To them, it's no different to a bunch of Scotts wearing kilts with no underpants. You can insist it is otherwise all you want, but until you have experienced it then your interpretation of their actions means nothing, especially as you have 'just come up with it.' Rather than telling people why they are doing something, try asking them.

That is why people can get desensitised to it - because it was only a pavlovian response to begin with. If you ring the bell often enough without feeding the dog, the dog eventually stops drueling. This is not because you have overcome some inherent response dogs have to bells, but because you have unlearned a learned response.

People will always come back for more sex, because that is what they actually want. They soon stop coming back for nudity, because evenutually they learn that it is not the same as sex. Of course, if their wives only let them see them naked in the context of sex, then they will always associate sex with nudity. They will never unlearn the learned response.

'Native' cultures in tropical environments where people are naked or almost naked all the time are at one extreme. Arab cultures, where some go as far as covering up every part of the woman's body, including the eyes, are at the opposite extreme. Most english speaking cultures tend to be more conservative than mainland Europe. I think we owe this to the Victorian era. Northern Europe is an interesting example, because even though it is cold and people would not normally get around naked for practical reasons, when the conditions permit they can take their clothes off without it turning into something sexual.

This is why in Arab countries, forcing women to wear tents does not protect them from anything. Men will still want sex and it will create the same set of problems it does everywhere. The only difference it makes is to deny women freedom, on a rather arbitrary basis. The more sinister outcomes is that women end up being blamed for men's lack of self control, because the onus is placed on women not to arouse the interest of men, rather than placing the onus on men to control themselves. You cannot deny a group of people basic rights without members of society inevitably blaming them for anything associated with the exercise of those rights, even if it is associated with a poorly controlled pavlovian response in men.

Agree with your last two paragraphs but I do not think you need Pavlov to get there. The post box ladies of islam are 'cultural artefacts', not biological ones as the pavlovian prelude would suggest.

The Psychology of Sexual Orientation, Behavior, and Identity

http://books.google.com.au/books?
id=5IdO6wisyUUC&pg=PA449&lpg=PA44
9&dq=Koran+bestiality&source=web&
ots=iVE3AxRT8N&sig=_TVtAPK7xvjNFi
Ik-_Lx6GITYJk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_
result&resnum=3&ct=result

p449

Muhammed also held that lust itself was a sin.

It goes on to explain 'loopholes' that were exploited to enable temporary marriages.

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Muhammed also held that lust itself was a sin.

If he did, then why didn't you provide a quote from him? Why a quote from two guys who don't seem to have a clue about Islam?

Surely if he held such a belief, it wouldn't be hard to reference the relevant Islamic texts that quote him holding that view would it?

You tarnish only your own intellectual standing by quoting such tripe freediver.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 7:34pm:

[quote]the relevant Islamic texts

According to your own post telling us that there are two sets (at leats) of unrelated hadiths - shiite and sunni - plus the corresponding sets of interpretations of these hadiths, it is impossible to speak of 'relevant' islamic text unless it means, always, 'whatever proves my partisan point'.

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According to your own post telling us that there are two sets (at leats) of unrelated hadiths - shiite and sunni - plus the corresponding sets of interpretations of these hadiths,

The mainstream Muslims have a clear set of texts we consider authoritative. There's no mixup, nice excuse though. Interpretations are irrelevant, just asking for a quote. Hearsay doesn't really mean much.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 7^th, 2008 at 8:55pm:

Quote: According to your own post telling us that there are two sets (at leats) of unrelated hadiths - shiite and sunni - plus the corresponding sets of interpretations of these hadiths, The mainstream Muslims have a clear set of texts we consider authoritative. There's no mixup, nice excuse though. Interpretations are irrelevant, just asking for a quote. Hearsay doesn't really mean much.

Interpretation is everything. In fact Islam is much more fragmented than a simple sunni / shia split. There are many, many echoes of the immutable word of god, and one needs to look no further for proofs than the history of Islamic religious wars, still ongoing.
At least the christians put it all behind them in the 17th century. (yes, the irish had a bit of a bit of a political biffo in the guise of religious disagreement. Or the other way around).

If you recall Abu, I came across that after asking you what the 'official' Islamic position on an issue was, and you told me to go and figure it out for myself. Next time I'll just ask sprint.

I'm putting my 2 cent in pretty late in the piece.

I don't agree with the Indonesian authorities in wanting to introduce a bikini ban (on religious grounds). Sure, Bali is part of Indonesia and this is their domestic issue etc etc. However, Indonesia is largely secular, and in some areas Shariah Law has governs peacefully and adjacent to Secular Law. In the last few years the harmony of races coexisting together is being sabotaged by radical(?) elements who wants to impose their religious will and laws onto non-Muslims. They want Shariah Law to apply to all regardless of whether the population is Muslim or not. It's happening in Malaysia and it's happening in Bali.

I have spent a lot of time in both countries, and these issues vexes me.

:(

The fact that it is a domestic issue is a red herring introduced to justifiy an absurd accusation of hypocrisy. Opposing a law and opposing self government are not the same thing. If someone speaks out against a law in Australia, that is not interpretted as an attack on our system of government. Nor should it be if someone criticises a proposal in Indonesia.

It does however expose the lie that Islam does not seek to impose it's standards on others.

Quote:

If someone speaks out against a law in Australia, that is not interpretted as an attack on our system of government.

When Muslims even mentioned the idea of allowing polygamy, everyone was in an uproar, and personally I can't see any secular reason whatsoever to deny polygamy, therefore it must obviously be the government of Australia enforcing their Christian standards of marriage onto a minority. Do you agree with this freediver and AcidMonkey?


Quote:

It does however expose the lie that Islam does not seek to impose it's standards on others.

It's no lie, because I don't think anyone's ever claimed that Islam as a ruling system wouldn't obviously implement it's laws on the entire society. As does secularism, as does communism as does every state ideology. Doesn't mean that a Communist can't live peacefully in a Democratic country, nor that a Muslim can't live peacefully in a Christian or Secular country. Your attempt to confuse the issue of a state implementing it's laws with the issue of individuals living in a society is daft.

When Muslims even mentioned the idea of allowing polygamy, everyone was in an uproar

So?

and personally I can't see any secular reason whatsoever to deny polygamy

Plenty were given in the original discussion.

therefore it must obviously be the government of Australia enforcing their Christian standards of marriage onto a minority

Perhaps you should stop viewing everything as a battle between Christianity and Islam.

Do you agree with this freediver and AcidMonkey?

Not at all.

It's no lie, because I don't think anyone's ever claimed that Islam as a ruling system wouldn't obviously implement it's laws on the entire society.

Must have been Malik then.


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As does secularism, as does communism as does every state ideology.

Most ideologies do not include a detailed list of laws governing people's lives.

Quote:

So?

So it's exactly the same issue, except the legislative boot is on the other foot.


Quote:

Plenty were given in the original discussion.

I don't remember anything other than "Why should we have to bloody accomodate these foreigners!!! if you don't like our laws the way they are don't come here, if you're already here, get the hell out".. is that what you mean?


Quote:

Perhaps you should stop viewing everything as a battle between Christianity and Islam.

I don't.


Quote:

Most ideologies do not include a detailed list of laws governing people's lives.

Again you obviously don't seem to understand the issue you're trying to debate. Individual rituals are generally the business of individuals under Islam. Islamic law for instance does not state a Christian has to pray or that a Jew has to brush his teeth, these things are prescribed for Muslims only. So the only laws the Islamic ideology implements on non-Muslim citizens are those pertaining to society in general. Criminal law, public decency, traffic laws, taxes, finance laws etc. And in these areas EVERY single other idoelogy clearly DOES implement these kinds of laws/systems on all their citizens.

So it's exactly the same issue, except the legislative boot is on the other foot.

It's a different issue. Stop assuming that the difference of opinion is based on which country is implimenting the law.

I don't remember anything other than "Why should we have to bloody accomodate these foreigners!!!

That's because you have trouble remembering things that don't fit into your view of the world. I forget the pyshological term, but it is a well known phenomena. Read the thread again to see what I mean.

So the only laws the Islamic ideology implements on non-Muslim citizens are those pertaining to society in general.

Well I was told that the Islamic Caliphate allowed self governance of non-Muslim regions that came under it's authority and only intervened in aspects that crossed borders (eg trade, military etc).

Criminal law, public decency, traffic laws, taxes, finance laws etc. And in these areas EVERY single other idoelogy clearly DOES implement these kinds of laws/systems on all their citizens.

Communist has no public decency aspect, no traffic law aspect etc. It is an ideology about economic systems, no9t every little thing people do.

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:09pm:

... Communist has no public decency aspect, no traffic law aspect etc. It is an ideology about economic systems, no9t every little thing people do.

They did in USSR. They had Moral Code Of Communism Builder. Police and state sponsored vigilante used to forcibly make very bad and short haircuts to youth who tried to imitate fashion of  western pop culture back in 60s. There even was something about it in Law Codec.

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Well I was told that the Islamic Caliphate allowed self governance of non-Muslim regions that came under it's authority

Jews and Christians have some degree of autonomy in their personal religious laws, much like what has been granted to Jews, and perhaps to Muslims in the UK. Doesn't make them exempt from nation wide laws though, as neither does the UK case.


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Communist has no public decency aspect

So people could just walk around naked? Come on, pretty much every state has public decency laws, stop being ridiculous freediver.


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no traffic law aspect etc.

I'm sure they had something like mandatory car pooling or something.
Now you're just getting really insane, are you going to suggest they had no traffic laws whatsoever???


Quote:

It is an ideology about economic systems, no9t every little thing people do

Actually socialism is the economic system of communism. Communism is a political ideology that deals with the overall organisation of society, including implementing public decency laws and traffic laws.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 8:11pm:

[quote]Jews and Christians have some degree of autonomy in their personal religious laws, much like what has been granted to Jews, and perhaps to Muslims in the UK. Doesn't make them exempt from nation wide laws though, as neither does the UK case.

As recommended by many Muslim scholars, jizya was to be collected in a humiliating procedure:

[T]he collector remains seated and the infidel remains standing…, his head bowed and his back bent. The infidel must place money on the scales, while the collector holds him by his beard and strikes him on both cheeks.(Al-Nawawi)[117]

Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya… on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [the dhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]… (Al-Ghazali)[118]

Following this [the handing over of the jizya payment] the emir will strike the dhimmi on the neck with his fist; a man will stand near the emir to chase away the dhimmi in haste; then a second and a third will come forward to suffer the same treatment as well as all those to follow. All [Muslims] will be admitted to enjoy this spectacle. (Ahmad al-Dardi al-Adawi)[119]

On the day of payment they [the dhimmis] shall be assembled in a public place … They should be standing there waiting in the lowest and dirtiest place. The acting officials representing the law shall be placed above them and shall adopt a threatening attitude so that it seems to them, as well as to the others, that our object is to degrade them by pretending to take their possessions. They will realize that we are doing them a favor in accepting from them the jizya and letting them go free. They then shall be dragged one by one for the exacting of payment. When paying, the dhimmi will receive a blow and will be thrown aside so that he will think that he has escaped the sword through this. This is the way that the friends of the Lord, of the first and last generations, will act toward their infidel enemies, for might belongs to Allah, to His Prophet, and to the believers. (Muhammad Abd al-Karim al-Maghili)[120]





Just like the muslims in the UK and Australia? You are lying and you know it.

Quote:

Muhammed also held that lust itself was a sin.

Just remembered a hadith (saying of Muhammad (pbuh)) today that is relevant to this wild claim.

"having sexual intercourse with your wife is a sadaqah." They (the Companions) said: "O Messenger of Allah, is there reward for him who satisfies his sexual passion among us?" He said: "Tell me, if he were to devote it to something forbidden, would it not be a sin on his part? Similarly, if he were to devote it to something lawful, he should have a reward."

They did in USSR. They had Moral Code Of Communism Builder.

Not everything the USSR did represent communist ideology. Of course countries need traffic laws, but communism is not going to tell you what they should be.

So people could just walk around naked? Come on, pretty much every state has public decency laws, stop being ridiculous freediver.

See above.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 9:37am:

They did in USSR. They had Moral Code Of Communism Builder. Not everything the USSR did represent communist ideology. Of course countries need traffic laws, but communism is not going to tell you what they should be. ...

Not communism but a state. That's the point that abu made.

It's a fact that different countries have different public decency and traffic laws, and that they are generally reflective of their ideology. Countries that have very liberal ideologies like Canada for instance, permit women to freely expose their breasts (although It'd probably result in a nasty case of frostbite on some little extremities), whilst countries with more conservative ideologies do not permit this, such as the USA.

Countries like Germany for instance have no speed limits on their motorways, whilst other countries like Australia do... There's no universal traffic laws, and there's no universal public decency laws. Different states permit different things, and that's just the way it is. You just seem to think Islam has no right to assert itself, as other ideologies do in this way... It's quite clear, that you're just against Islam, plain and simple.

Not communism but a state. That's the point that abu made.

No it isn't. This is the point he made:

Criminal law, public decency, traffic laws, taxes, finance laws etc. And in these areas EVERY single other idoelogy clearly DOES implement these kinds of laws/systems on all their citizens.

There is a fundamental difference. In Islam, the details are part of the ideology, remaining unchanged with time or knowledge. With other ideologies, they are peripheral.

It's a fact that different countries have different public decency and traffic laws, and that they are generally reflective of their ideology.

How does a stop sign reflect our ideology?

Quote:

How does a stop sign reflect our ideology?

You value life to some extent, so you stop :)

Public decency is the actual case we were discussing, so let's stick with that. As it's quite clearly legislated upon according to ideology and even religion by many states around the world, not just those with Muslim majorities.


Quote:

remaining unchanged with time or knowledge

This is not really true. Islam has provision for modifying of laws. But things like public decency simply don't change. What's nakedness today is nakedness tommorrow. There's no technological advances that all of a sudden change what nakedness is.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 9:49am:

... How does a stop sign reflect our ideology?

"Do not kill"

Seriously though, in the USSR many of the laws we explained from ideological point of view and not only that but in most countries the system of law is based on constitution and constitution reflects an ideology of society.

What ideology is Australian law regarding public decency based on?

What does communist ideology say about nudity?

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:14am:

What ideology is Australian law regarding public decency based on? What does communist ideology say about nudity?

That it is immoral and unlawful to be nood in public.

Are you talking about Australian law or communist ideology?

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:36am:

Are you talking about Australian law or communist ideology?

Which one did you asked about?

both

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:42am:

both

Choose then.

No thanks. If you don't mean anything with your posts, I'm not going to attach any meaning to them.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 10:51am:

No thanks. If you don't mean anything with your posts, I'm not going to attach any meaning to them.

Then it is both.

As far as I know there is nothing in communist ideology against public nudity. Australia also has plenty of public nudists.

freediver you seem to be completely missing the point here, due to your desire to single Islam out as some brutal and strange belief.

All laws are based on some kind of belief, some kind of ideology, otherwise we'd just make them at random. If we didn't hold an ideology and belief system that didn't cause us to make our laws, then we'd have a bingo club instead of a senate and a parliament.

Jus because you don't happen to agree with the particular ideology/belief that Islam seeks to base it's laws on, doesn't make it any less legitimate than any other ideology/belief.

freediver wrote on Oct 8^th, 2008 at 7:09pm:

That's because you have trouble remembering things that don't fit into your view of the world. I forget the pyshological term, but it is a well known phenomena.

Cognitive distortion - mental filter where one focuses on a certain aspect of something while ignoring the rest.

Cognitive distortion - magnification/minimalisation where one inappropriately exaggerate/understate the way people or a situation truly are.

Cognitive distortion - emotional reasoning where one makes decisions and arguments based on how you feel rather than objective reality.

Cornitive distortion - overgeneralization where one takes isolated cases and uses them to make wide generalizations.

Cognitive distortion - labeling where one explains behaviors or events, merely by naming them (usually with overgeneralization). Rather than describing the specific behavior, you assign a label to someone or yourself that puts them in absolute and unalterable terms.


I think we all are guilty og these at one point or another.

:)

All laws are based on some kind of belief, some kind of ideology

Wrong, plenty are purely rational. Even those apparently based on ideology can often be arrived at rationally, such that the ideology is not required for the law.

Rationality is in the eye of the beholder.

It's based on a belief, which the believer holds to also be rational. It's still a belief. We have a law against murder, because we BELIEVE it's not a nice thing to do. Most of us also believe that's the only rational belief to hold (thankfully), but there's plenty of other laws, all based on beliefs too, that many people will disagree over how rational they are. Abortion is one particular law (mentioned in another thread recently).

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:06am:

As far as I know there is nothing in communist ideology against public nudity. Australia also has plenty of public nudists.

Why then in the 1982 Grand Final a naked female stripper on the MCG field was arrested by police and charged?
What would happen if you go naked near a school or in a business centre?
As for communist ideology the MCCB contradicts your assertion.

MCCB?

Why then in the 1982 Grand Final a naked female stripper on the MCG field was arrested by police and charged?

I think it is illegal to run onto the field during a game. This became a bit of a problem for a while.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:25am:

MCCB? Why then in the 1982 Grand Final a naked female stripper on the MCG field was arrested by police and charged? I think it is illegal to run onto the field during a game. This became a bit of a problem for a while.

But other people did and were removed without being charged with indecent behaviour.

What is the MCCB?

Criminal law, public decency, traffic laws, taxes, finance laws etc. And in these areas EVERY single other idoelogy clearly DOES implement these kinds of laws/systems on all their citizens.

Abu, being able to tangentially relate any law to something someone beleives in hardly justifies this claim about every single ideology implimenting laws on people. An ideology is not the same as a belief. I believe 1+1=2. Is that an ideology?

Quote:

An ideology is not the same as a belief. I believe 1+1=2. Is that an ideology?

Surely you're able to discern the difference between confidence in the fact a mathematical problem and it's solution hold true, and the systematic implementation of beliefs by a state, Islamic, Communist, Democratic or otherwise. Please dispense with the childish analogies.

But there is no 'systematic implimentation' of communism beyond the economic system. Likewise Australia's laws are far from systematic. Most of it is case law.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:34am:

What is the MCCB?

Moral Codec of a Comunism Builder

Who put it out? Is it communist ideology?

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:03pm:

Who put it out? Is it communist ideology?

It was worked out by ideologists of CPUSSR as 3rdCP Programm and was voted in by delegates on 22nd general meeting of CPUSSR in 1961

So again, you are confusing Russian government propaganda with communist ideology....

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:23pm:

So again, you are confusing Russian government propaganda with communist ideology....

What Russian government propaganda? Looks like you have no idea what you are talking about. Go read history of USSR, CPUSSR,  RSSR and CPRSSR.

No thanks. It doesn't appear to have helped you much.

freediver, you're still remaining completely oblivious to the point. They did legislate based on what they perceived Communist ideology to be. Likewise Australia legsilates based on what they consider Democratic or Secular ideology to be.

They permit homosexuality and nude sunbathing for instance because they believe that the principles of personal freedom that come from the Democratic and Secular ideologies hold them to be acceptable behaviours.

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:47pm:

No thanks. It doesn't appear to have helped you much.

Then write an Ode to your ignorance but don't blame me for it.

They did legislate based on what they perceived Communist ideology to be.

Can you back this claim up?

Likewise Australia legsilates based on what they consider Democratic or Secular ideology to be.

No it doesn't. Neither ideology says anything about what the rules should be. It is an ideology about the mechanism, not the outcome.

because they believe that the principles of personal freedom that come from the Democratic and Secular ideologies

How does it come from those ideologies?

freediver wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 1:58pm:

They did legislate based on what they perceived Communist ideology to be. Can you back this claim up? Likewise Australia legsilates based on what they consider Democratic or Secular ideology to be. No it doesn't. Neither ideology says anything about what the rules should be. It is an ideology about the mechanism, not the outcome. because they believe that the principles of personal freedom that come from the Democratic and Secular ideologies How does it come from those ideologies?

I've already explained that rules are based on laws, laws on constitution and constitution on ideological or/and religious believes..

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 11:19am:

Rationality is in the eye of the beholder. It's based on a belief, which the believer holds to also be rational. It's still a belief. We have a law against murder, because we BELIEVE it's not a nice thing to do. Most of us also believe that's the only rational belief to hold (thankfully), but there's plenty of other laws, all based on beliefs too, that many people will disagree over how rational they are. Abortion is one particular law (mentioned in another thread recently).

This is a great bloody muddle.

Reason is NOT in the eye of the beholder. It si not a matter of belief or cusstom or tradition. It is not a taste or whim. Mathematics and logic, for example, are not social constructs.

Mathematics was already dealt with, please go back and read more carefully soren.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 6:07am:

Mathematics was already dealt with, please go back and read more carefully soren.

It is NOT about mathematics, you great Muslim reasoner, but about rationality which you presented as a construct. Mathmatics is an EXAMPLE of why reason is not a construct, not its sole or full explanation.

If you are the jewel of muslim intellect, we are safe.

You don't believe you're safe, and that's why you're so anti-Islamic. But if it makes you feel better, and you think you'll convince me, then keep playing the charade :)