As a human being and woman I find this so sad, concerning and unacceptable.  :'(


http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/theeditorialpage/story.html?id=acd8bf5b-6a52-4b67-9001-56c7cd5803b6

"...honour killings and female circumcision, to name just two -- are illegal and new immigrants are expected to adopt western standards in that regard."

Sense may be prevailing in Canada, good on them.

Unfortunately, Islam seems to be the last bastion of this unacceptable behaviour.
While the rest of the world has grown, and come to respect women legally, as well as personally, Islam still promotes the concept of women as property.

There is no such thing as rape in marriage, if you are muslim, if she is your wife you can do with her as you like.
That murder is more honourable, than letting your daughter experience love, is just one more aspect of fundamental teaching that muslims need to change.

Honour killings and any other form of vigilantism is strictly forbidden in Islam, and anyone committing them should be brought to justice and is considered nothing but a murderer by Islam.

Here's a few links and stories for you to balance your view out a little, Christians and other religions also commit these atrocious killings of [dis]honour.

Palestinian Christian murdered by her father for wanting to marry a Muslim man.
Yezidi girl stoned to death, likewise, because she wanted to marry a Muslim man.
Pakistani Christian kills an American and Pakistani for 'honour'
Hindu man sliced to pieces for wanting to marry girl from another caste.
Muslim man murdered by Hindu relatives of his wife.
Hindu man burns his daughter, grandson and son-in-law alive because they were not of the same caste.
Sikh lady murdered for marrying a poorer man without her parents permission.
Sikh lady (70 yo.) murders her daughter-in-law for having an affair.

And actually the Bible has passages which refer to the concept of 'killing for honour', the Qur'an certainly does not.

Lev 21:9  And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Stoned to death again?

Or adultery for a married woman?

Jordan I edited my post and removed my question, as I already had the answer in my wiki. The answer to your question is there also.

Oh. Ok.

Added a comma and exchanged again for likewise, hope that clears it up.

Abu your signature scrolls just a little too fast to keep up with.

Man, I blocked that image, it was way too annoying... ;)

Well it's 12 secs. per frame, which is what it took me to comfortably read it.
Just click on it, and read the entire speech :)

I only just realised it was an active link. Sorry, but I don't allow external links in signatures. That is, the inmage itself is fine, but not the active link.

The link is to the HP website.

But if them's the rules, them's the rules. And I shall remove it.

Thanks. I'd rather not start making exceptions based on whether I approve of the site.

Interesting fact:

According to the report of the Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002), the following countries have legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defense in the case of 'honour killings': Argentina, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Peru, Syria, Venezuela and the Palestinian National Authority.

6 predominantly Judaeo-Christian states, and 5 predominantly Muslim states.

Haiti, Morocco, Brazil & Columbia also have legislation or had legislation in the recent past which diminishes responsibility of those killing their wife caught in the act of adultery.

According to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives."

Last time I checked, Brazil was a very Christian country, perhaps it's all the Muslim immigrants that were doing it?

This isn't a muslim only problem, but it is a muslim problem too, so to always deflect onto other religions to try to excuse your own is a cop out.

I think it's prevalent in countries whose culture and religion have combined to oppress women, to make them powerless and who see them as commodities that have the ability to embarrass families. Islam is part of that problem.

It's not an Islamic problem at all. Islam simply does not condone it. That's like saying it's a Catholic problem, because it's so prevalent in South American Catholic countries.

It's a problem of ignorance, and most often of societies steeped in tribalism. The Islamic texts harshly criticise tribalism on many occasions.

However, some Muslim leaders are perhaps complicit in this by not strongly criticising it enough.

I can't speak for other religions, but Islam does not promote, condone or prescribe this practise. I provided a quotation above from the Bible which does appear to condone it, as for the Hindu or Sikh texts, I couldn't say, but the Qur'an definitely does not, and as mentioned above harshly criticises those ignorant people who call for tribalism.

Well something has gone astray, because it happens a lot in Muslim countries, and I have stated why I think that's so.

It's also fairly typical of you being in denial about an issue, deflecting to other problems or sweeping it under the rug.

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Well something has gone astray, because it happens a lot in Muslim countries

As pointed out, it happens a lot in Christian South American countries and in India also.

I think what is a more plausible cause is lack of education & tribalism. Those are the factors that seem constant, not a specific religion.


Quote:

It's also fairly typical of you being in denial about an issue, deflecting to other problems or sweeping it under the rug.

Anything that comes from my keyboard is a 'deflection' according to you, so that's not surprising. You should just put it in your signature "If this post is a reply to abu rashid, stop deflecting!"

I'm sure you can see you're doing it.

Nevertheless, I already said it wasn't a Muslim only problem, but it is a Muslim problem and the reason is the way Islam regards it's women, combined with countries that are still developing and have certain attitudes towards women in general. Islam doesn't help this. Lack of education for women doesn't help either.

Given that many muslims believe that Islam commands the death penalty for apostasy, I think it has something to do with Islam. Not that it is confined to Islam of course. Normally wealth is a pretty good cure for this sort of thing. Is this also true in predominantly muslim countries?

Honour killings have got nothing to do with the death penalty.

The two issues are completely seperate.

I wouldn't say completely separate. They both result in the wrongful death of a human being based on an ill conceived ideology.

I provided a quotation above from the Bible which does appear to condone it, as for the Hindu or Sikh texts, I couldn't say, but the Qur'an definitely does not, and as mentioned above harshly criticises those ignorant people who call for tribalism.

Who cares!!!!!!!! This is about people picking and choosing rules for what they want from where they want to justify certain actions, whatever religion. It's in the bible......IT'S UNACCEPTABLE. It's not in the Qur'an, Muslims do it........IT'S STILL UNACCEPTABLE.  I choose to live my life by taking responsibility for my own actions. I don't hide behind rules and laws found in books such as the bible or the other. Human Rights should be based on respect and possibly love for others (ok, a bit idealistic but that's how I like to live). Mr Abu, I get the sense that you don't really like anyone making a statement that addresses Islamic issues in a negative light yet are quick to respond with an attack on others' beliefs.

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Mr Abu, I get the sense that you don't really like anyone making a statement that addresses Islamic issues in a negative light yet are quick to respond with an attack on others' beliefs.

I don't like people attributing things falsely to Islam, of course not.

If the Australian laws say one thing, and some people do another... is this the fault of the Australian system? Is the Australian law responsible for a thief who robs your house? Such a claim is ridiculous. Nevermind that Islam is no longer even the law that's implemented in those countries.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 19^th, 2008 at 10:39pm:

Quote: Mr Abu, I get the sense that you don't really like anyone making a statement that addresses Islamic issues in a negative light yet are quick to respond with an attack on others' beliefs. I don't like people attributing things falsely to Islam, of course not. If the Australian laws say one thing, and some people do another... is this the fault of the Australian system? Is the Australian law responsible for a thief who robs your house? Such a claim is ridiculous. Nevermind that Islam is no longer even the law that's implemented in those countries.

Why do Muslims come here at all.?

Now thats a good question.!!

Our culture and Islamic culture are too different and I think the average Aussie is sick of having it shoved down our throats.

I wonder if on a Muslim run board..if there was a seperate board for Australian culture and beliefs..yeah right!!..and I wonder if on a Muslim run board..if the Aussie posters would be arrogant and selfish to infect every topic with their cultural  crap ..thinking everyone is automatically fascinated by it.
WE ARE NOT.

I dont give a rats arse mate.

Human rights of women and children in Arab countries is appalling..your monotonous ravings don't convince ANYONE!!!!

we have honour killings here in oz.......abortion..

also, it is argued that in muslim countries women arent degraded in advertising with sexual images. a womans role is traditional. she runs the home, the family and extended family. in the west, dogs are allowed in the home, but grandparents are put in old peoples homes...

its easy for righteous fools to generalise about the treatment of women ion other countries, when the only experience they have of it is from MAINSTREAM MEDIA whom have an anti muslim agenda. what do you people REALLY KNOW of muslim culture besides that youve seen on 60 mins or some other zionist media outlet?

i suggest you have NONE. ZILCH. ZERO. of the hundreds of millions of muslims in the world, do you think i could find just as many WESTERN WIFE BASHERS, WIFE MURDERERS? of course i can.

so go on. hit me with some more of your parroted anti muslim mainstream media propaganda!!!!! how do you blokes even walk down the street. when you capacity to think is so dumbed down..???

imperial wrote on Aug 20^th, 2008 at 3:26pm:

we have honour killings here in oz.......abortion..

Oh my bloody god..thats the most stupid statement Ive ever heard.

Just stop right there imperial..I think i can learn tooo much from you?     ;)

abu, change your avatar, or don't post here anymore. I find it offensive.

easel wrote on Aug 20^th, 2008 at 4:18pm:

abu, change your avatar, or don't post here anymore. I find it offensive.

I find your stink offensive...go have a shower. ;)

Don't post here? Do you want to punish him or reward him?

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Why do Muslims come here at all.?

(speaking only for myself): I was born here, and my family's been here since about the 1850's, they probably came here for the same reasons most people (not just Muslims) did and have since, new start in a new country, not to listen to some bigoted loon rant about assimilation and backwater hick statements like "you're kind aint welcome here, we's all one kind here".


Quote:

Our culture and Islamic culture are too different and I think the average Aussie is sick of having it shoved down our throats.

What do you perceive is being "shoved down your throat"?


Quote:

I wonder if on a Muslim run board..if there was a seperate board for Australian culture and beliefs..yeah right!!

freediver made the offer, nobody asked him to. He obviously felt it would be beneficial to the forum. Perhaps you should take it up with him.


Quote:

.if the Aussie posters would be arrogant and selfish to infect every topic with their cultural  crap

Actually I think you'll find about 80% of the topics about Islam were started by either sprintcyclist, jordan484 or easel.


Quote:

Human rights of women and children in Arab countries is appalling

I don't think any Muslim would disagree there, we're mostly the victims of it remember. So why doesn't America stop funding them? It's American aid dollars that are mostly used to keep the Arab world in the condition it is in. The strongest American allies are also usually the most oppressive Arab regimes.

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abu, change your avatar, or don't post here anymore. I find it offensive.

Gladly, adios.

ive seen this sort of thing before...

people dont realise that it is discussion/argument that attracts them to forums. it is difference of opinion that encourages thar discussion. so you must have that difference to promote a healthy web site. hell, i sometimes post stuff and take a side i dont agree with, just for the debate !!!! dont scare away posters....

remember. if you believe in free speeh, you must defend those whosespeech you dont agree with. for if they are cencored, then there is no free speech.

i dont find his 'flag' offensive.....why do you mod? wouldnt you be better debating why he has a flag designed that way? what do aboriginies think of the union jack in our/their flag?

bad call mod. very bad.....

How strange, Imperial seems to know what is going on, but everyone else is clueless.lol

To be fair to him, he was not here last week when Abu banned Jordan from the Islam board until he changed his avatar, which was the keep australia beautiful guy dumping all his religious beliefs in the bin.

Abu is just being shown, in practical terms, why HIS behaviour was wrong, I am pretty confident Easel couldn't care less about Abu's silly muslim australia fantasy.

im pretty confident that there arent too many muslims that consider the possibility of a muslim australia...

more chance of an american iraq...

oceanz wrote on Aug 20^th, 2008 at 3:42pm:

imperial wrote on Aug 20th, 2008 at 3:26pm: we have honour killings here in oz.......abortion.. Oh my bloody god..thats the most stupid statement Ive ever heard. Just stop right there imperial..I think i can learn tooo much from you?     ;)

lets look at the thread title..."honour killings"........

secondly, lets look at the varied reasons behind abortions....i'll list some that come to mind....

1. honour killing. young mother murders baby on the quiet (with parents concent, as she is too young, has no husband, doesnt know the father, etc) so she kills it to keep her honour..
2.convenience killing. baby doesnt suit her lifestyle, etc.
3.health reasons. mother may be sick. or baby may be 'damaged'..
4.rape killing. the mother was raped and so believes the child must die..

now. to look at your statement..(your only defence as you couldnt debate).

Quote:

Oh my bloody god..thats the most stupid statement Ive ever heard.

i doubt "your bloody god", agrees with abortion...
and if you havent before considered my arguments in your own mind, all by your little self, and needed me to enlighten you, then it is you, whom is stupid....

Quote:

i doubt "your bloody god", agrees with abortion... and if you havent before considered my arguments in your own mind, all by your little self, and needed me to enlighten you, then it is you, whom is stupid....

now let me see..mmmm have digested your reply and swished it around the palaette...mmmm I havent changed my mind - its still very acidic and sooo on the nose.

It was " a stupid bloody statement"..and it still is   :P

extend yourself. tell me why....? are you capable of perhaps a FULL paragraph..?

imperial wrote on Aug 20^th, 2008 at 5:48pm:

extend yourself. tell me why....? are you capable of perhaps a FULL paragraph..?

as exampled by this offering...?

Model the behaviour you wish to see..its what Ive always been told.

Now I ll be popping off to the shop..have some goats eyes and camel steaks to be buying.

Nice to talk to you imperial.   :)

Quote:

Nice to talk to you imperial.

whaaa....you didnt say nothin....? :o

** deleted **

Double posting

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20^th, 2008 at 4:39pm:

Quote: abu, change your avatar, or don't post here anymore. I find it offensive. Gladly, adios.

What? I hop on a plane for a few hours and I missed this? Abu got a taste of his own medicine? Wow!

:o :o

Or, should I say here we go again.....!!

I agree with Imp. I've expressed my opinion before re: Jordan and it remains the same, bad call ease.

I know it wasn't right, but it gives me the giggles.

Abu, in the interests of democracy (something you oppose), freedom of expression (something you also oppose) and Western values (another thing you oppose) you are welcome to post here pretty much whatever you like with whatever avatar you so desire.

Also, Jesus loves you.

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Also, Jesus loves you.

hes a muslim, he knows that.....

muslims believe jesus was a prophet, not the son of god. and, after saying his name either verbally or by written word, will state PBUH. 'peace be upon him'. which shows more respect for him than most people do in western society, a society who mostly only mention his name while swearing.....