Where should we draw the line with racist posts and images?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2008 at 8:17pm:

Where should we draw the line with racist posts and images?

No pictures of anyone who is not perfectly white?

deepthought wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2008 at 10:47pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 23rd, 2008 at 8:17pm: Where should we draw the line with racist posts and images? No pictures of anyone who is not perfectly white?

;D ;D ;D ;D

Obviously racism should be discussed because it affects many people, but is there any reason why people who aren't caucasian should be derided and abused?  If the majority of posters feel as though they want this forum to be an exclusive redneck neo-nazi hate forum, then FD needs to make that quite clear on the opening page of Ozpolitics.  It should read "Welcome to Ozpolitics - only if you're an anglo descendant".

Comments such as "coon & nig ger" are highly offensive and aren't acceptable to most people, in particular to those who these remarks are directed to.  

It is not only unacceptable when some posters believe they need to express their hatred for other cultures and races so blatantly, it is possibly illegal.  This puts a blight on Ozpolitics and deters other potential posters who believe there is no moderation here.

Either Ozpolitics treats all people as equal and with some courtesy (although there's nothing wrong with humour or sarcasm) or this board needs to change tactics altogether and stay selective to only a few who believe they are superior.

In that case - FD should shut shop now - because Ozpolitics certainly won't be attractive to the average person who wants to be part of a community forum.

How about this - I put it up a while back the last time we had issues with racism:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1172540626/11#11

While racist and sexist issues may be discussed, politically correct and polite language is to be used. This is not intended to limit the views that can be expressed, but how you express them. It is intended to cut out racial slurs, 'cheap shots' and comments designed to offend. There are some old threads around that clearly violate this policy. I will close them as I come across them.

---

One thing I would add to that is that it should be addressed the same way porn and nudity is, in that the context matters. Gratuitous attacks on groups or people, or ones that are irrelevant or only marginally relevant should be out. I'm thinking of posts like this one:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203749868

Obviously if aboriginal people are treated differently under law then criticisms of them as a group and how they have dealt with the differential treatment are fair.

I encourage everyone to take this issue seriously because it will affect what you are allowed to say on this forum. If I don't get a lot more interest I will just go ahead with what I think is fair.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2008 at 8:17pm:

Where should we draw the line with racist posts and images?

I think this is where the line should be drawn: Anything that incites hatred of another people, race, or religion should be moderated. Valid criticisms are useful, but we really don't need to incite hatred of Muslims, for example, because one or two may have sold feces cake. This is baiting. Horrible and agenda-ridden baiting, and it actually negates valid criticism. Likewise, the term "N!ggers" is not only degrading to the forum, and viewers, but is the sort of thing you'd hear in Outback pubs. I recognise that free speech is important, and value it. Insults and slander are not necessary in exercising one's free speech.  People who read the posts of Aussie Nationalist would turn off this forum faster than lightening. We don't need a blow by blow description of how people wipe their arse, if you get my point.   

Mantra and Ray_A have summed it up very well.

Aussie Nationalist' stuff is just plain off.

Noone should have to read that stuff.

So what do you think of the following examples. Please indicate yes/no/not sure:

1) bugger of willy (thread deleted).

2) I closed the niglets thread. I didn't delte it for the sake of this discussion:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203749868

3) coons:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203377028/36#36

4) The faeces one I'm sure about:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203759546

5) Lebs:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203751540

6) Ethnic crimes - article mentions nothing about ethnics:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203749355

7) When will the Jews shut up!

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1203747099

8) Destroy Multiculturism, Globalism and all other forms of discrimination against the true builders of the world. Ie; EUROPEAN PEOPLE.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1189512784/9#9

A couple of those threads have been made in humour (good or bad is debatable) -  although a bit on the "heavy" side.   AN could be a bit more diplomatic if he chose.  The articles could be tolerable and turned into positive threads if AN wanted to go there.  It is the personal insults, innuendos and attacks that aren't acceptable and the deliberate racial comments which deters people who might want to post here.

Definitely 1, 2 and 5 need removing.  You have deleted his comments in 3 - which is good.  He could change the titles on the other threads as they aren't relative to the subject and are blatantly racist.  

mantra wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 10:52am:

Obviously racism should be discussed because it affects many people, but is there any reason why people who aren't caucasian should be derided and abused?  If the majority of posters feel as though they want this forum to be an exclusive redneck neo-nazi hate forum, then FD needs to make that quite clear on the opening page of Ozpolitics.  It should read "Welcome to Ozpolitics - only if you're an anglo descendant". Comments such as "coon & nig ger" are highly offensive and aren't acceptable to most people, in particular to those who these remarks are directed to.   It is not only unacceptable when some posters believe they need to express their hatred for other cultures and races so blatantly, it is possibly illegal.  This puts a blight on Ozpolitics and deters other potential posters who believe there is no moderation here. Either Ozpolitics treats all people as equal and with some courtesy (although there's nothing wrong with humour or sarcasm) or this board needs to change tactics altogether and stay selective to only a few who believe they are superior. In that case - FD should shut shop now - because Ozpolitics certainly won't be attractive to the average person who wants to be part of a community forum.

I applaude you on your post, and I am in total agreeance with you. VILIFACATION is very much against the law.

boxingkangaroo wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 2:32pm:

Mantra and Ray_A have summed it up very well. Aussie Nationalist' stuff is just plain off. Noone should have to read that stuff.

SO TRUE  :)

mantra wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 4:03pm:

A couple of those threads have been made in humour (good or bad is debatable) -  although a bit on the "heavy" side.   AN could be a bit more diplomatic if he chose.  The articles could be tolerable and turned into positive threads if AN wanted to go there.  It is the personal insults, innuendos and attacks that aren't acceptable and the deliberate racial comments which deters people who might want to post here. Definitely 1, 2 and 5 need removing.  You have deleted his comments in 3 - which is good.  He could change the titles on the other threads as they aren't relative to the subject and are blatantly racist.

Articles 1 & 3 were directed at myself. To be honest, when I read them this morning, it did upset me, & I had to work through how I was feeling. Then I went to work, my job is very much involving the public. Today, of all days, it was busier than usual. Every customer that I greeted, cooked their meals for, & interacted with, were even more complimentry than usual, some even being very generous with their tips. I had the privelege of meeting so many lovely people, & I later thought, why am I allowing 1 person's comment's to upset me, when I am surrounded by so many positive people  :)I always tell my children, that if somebody does you a good deed, then you pass it on. I keep my tips in a jar at work and after recieving some more today, I used this money to pay for the meals for a family, 2 adults & 2 children, and when the little kids said thank you and gave me a hug, whatever had upset me earlier, vanished. It's a beautiful world isn't it ( I'm still on a buzz)

Willy - I saw the comments early this morning and they were nasty.  Freediver will remove any offensive posts at your request.  People say hurtful things all the time and I know I sometimes dwell on these comments too.  They bring you right down - which is the intention of those who write them.  But there are some nice people on this forum - even those who put you down, no doubt have some good qualities.  So just take what you want out of it and leave the rest.

I'm glad you had a good day and by giving something, you received something greater back.  :)

willy wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 8:20pm:

I used this money to pay for the meals for a family, 2 adults & 2 children, and when the little kids said thank you and gave me a hug, whatever had upset me earlier, vanished. It's a beautiful world isn't it ( I'm still on a buzz)

Some things are so much more valuable than money :-* :)

merou wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 10:19pm:

willy wrote on Feb 24th, 2008 at 8:20pm: I used this money to pay for the meals for a family, 2 adults & 2 children, and when the little kids said thank you and gave me a hug, whatever had upset me earlier, vanished. It's a beautiful world isn't it ( I'm still on a buzz) Some things are so much more valuable than money :-* :)

That is so true Merou.  

mantra wrote on Feb 24^th, 2008 at 9:28pm:

Willy - I saw the comments early this morning and they were nasty.  Freediver will remove any offensive posts at your request.  People say hurtful things all the time and I know I sometimes dwell on these comments too.  They bring you right down - which is the intention of those who write them.  But there are some nice people on this forum - even those who put you down, no doubt have some good qualities.  So just take what you want out of it and leave the rest. I'm glad you had a good day and by giving something, you received something greater back.  :)

Hi Mantra, I adopted this way of thinking after watching a movie called Pass It On, if you haven't seen it, I certainly reccomend it. :) As for the charmimg comments by fellow member,it was only for a moment that it effected me & I am well & truly over it, . Thank you for letting me know that Freediver will remove the offending comments, but I choose to let them stay thus not allowing this person to have any 'control' over me with, at the end of the day is only words. Yes, definatley there are a lot of great people on this forum  :)

I'm a great believer in "give them enough rope" or let them demonstrate just how ignorant they are in this case.

We need to draw the line at blatant hate posts such as the Lebs thread. I was going to reply to that and talk about a Lebanese acquaintance who came here in the 1960's, and died a few years ago,  and who transformed a small Australian sea port into a world class facility. This particular 'Leb' was an incredibly humble individual who always had time for people in need. I didn't think it was appropriate to contaminate his memory by posting to such an offensive thread.

I guess by allowing hate posts to be posted, you also have to consider Australian Federal and State Anti Discrimination legislation, as an 'Editor".

Here is an interesting article about a Canadian white supremacist who was jailed for posting racist 'hate speech' online. It's the only case I am aware of. It looks like it is the author rather than the editor who is held responsible, but you can never be certain with emerging areas of law. It seems very similar to what AN is doing, just on a smaller scale.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1173173318/160#160

Quote:

Here is an interesting article about a Canadian white supremacist who was jailed for posting racist 'hate speech' online.

Good example FD, although I think there's a couple of neo-nazi forums that allow posters to say what they want in Australia.  The problem is that those who are posting this stuff don't think there's anything wrong with it and believe it's their right to say what they please.  They've gotten away with it for a while - well the younger ones have, because of the changes made around 2000 to the racial vilification/hatred laws where now it's left open to how a Judge or Magistrate interprets the vilification and the intent, whereas previously there were precedents set out and adhered to.  It has also been difficult for those who are vilifed, because they are usually migrants or visitors who have a poor grasp of how to lodge complaints with the appropriate government departments (and who could blame them - even we find it almost impossible).

Hopefully this is something the new government will rectify.


 

Can you give me more info on those precedents and the changes made in 2000?

Yes FD.  I have all the information somewhere, but I haven't looked at it for a year or so.  I will dig it up as soon as I can.  There was something else I was supposed to get for you as well - sorry, but I've forgotten what it was.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1201764480/22#22

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1180841656/98#98

I did a search for all posts by mantra containing the word freediver, got those two in the top 15.

Thanks - I'll look for the child abuse information later.  The dates I gave aren't correct - the changes were made in 2005, although if I hunt around - I do remember some changes around 2000.  This is a partial extract of a report and there are some links provided.  I'll have to go back into the links later for the specific information regarding the precedents, but in the meantime......


Quote:

Racial Hatred Act:  To compare today’s racism to a decade ago I viewed the Commonwealth Racial Hatred Act 1995 and the new “revised” Racial Discrimination Act 2005 (RDA).  The RDA 2005 was amended to include a new clause “3.4.7 Exemptions” which states: Section 18D of the RDA provides for the following exemptions from the prohibition on racial hatred in 18C. Section 18C does not render unlawful anything said or done reasonably and in good faith.   Simply, courts approach ‘reasonableness & good faith’ as separate issues of the exemption in 18D.  So to decide if an act is done reasonably, reference will be made to the objective circumstances, whereas “good faith” requires a consideration of the intention of the respondent.   In laymen’s terms, the Racial Discrimination Act 2005 is now open to interpretation and not specific acts as itemised in the previous Racial Hatred Act 1995.

and


Quote:

Federal Government’s Response to Racism 2005: “Fair Go Australia” approached government agencies and raised 2 crucial issues.  The agencies indicated they receive only a fraction of the cases alleging racial discrimination and prejudice.  The reasons given for this low rate of reporting is the formal methods needed to report an incident by making the complaint in writing, language difficulties, fear of government agencies, time delays involved in resolving the issue, individuals wishing to “forget” the incident and problems identifying the perpetrator. Incitive Comments made by Government ministers and media 2006:  In an interview conducted before the Cronulla race riot, but only published in February, John Howard accused Muslims of holding jihadist views and extreme opinions about women that were incompatible with Australian society. This, he said, was “not a problem that we have ever faced with other immigrant communities”, but was “unique to Muslims”.  He also went on to describe the burqa as “confronting … and that is how most people feel”. Liberal MP Dana Vale aired her views that whites in Australia were aborting themselves “almost out of existence” and that there was a real possibility of Australia “becoming a Muslim country”.

http://www.fairgo.netMedia Regulation and Vilification – Lawlink NSW
http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/vwFiles/Race%20for%20the%20Headlines%20-%20Chapter%204.pdf/$file/Race%20for%20the%20Headlines%20-%20Chapter%204.pdf
Racism – No Way (Racism and the Law)
http://www.racismnoway.com.au/library/legislation/index-Commonwe.html
New Internationalist 1985 – Employment survey
http://www.newint.org/issue145/facts.htm
European Network for Aboriginal Rights – employment survey
http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/31A4695523F0BB67CA25703B0080CCB2?opendocument
Parliamentary Library – Research paper
http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/rp/1997-98/98rp05.htm
University of NSW – research paper
http://www.bees.unsw.edu.au/school/staff/dunn/racismfindings.html
Australian Human Rights & Equal Opportunity Commission - Resources
http://www.hreoc.gov.au/links/index.html

Thanks mantra.

You need to look at State Law too. They vary enormously by State.

Wow! It looks like things got a little heavy while I was away. And it looks like AN has his hand deep in it. He likes to push the boundary a little and has gotten away with it a few times.

Mantra and Ray_A has made very good points.

The moment a civil discussion of ideas becomes personal and your character is needlessly attacked it no longer becomes fun. I don't know what AN did to Willy (as the thread has been deleted) but I imagine it was cruel and reckless. No one should be subjected to personal villification. We may have gotten used to each other's personal debating style and therefore can shrug off certain comments or know when one is joking, however an attack of a new member is definitely bad form.

Some forums have a sin bin rule where a member cannot logon for a set time period (1, 2, 3 weeks, or 1 month etc). Another forum I've visited had a "scarlet letter" on their avatar advertising the fact that the member is a habitual flammer or troller. And then, there's the ol boot up the bum - membership deletion.

Incidentally FD, have you ever deleted an member account for insubordination? Just curious.

Not yet. I seem to annoy them into submission instead. We've had a few members delete their own profile and leave, some of them 'under a cloud', but I think they all came back. AN has come closest I guess, but he leaves once I start taking an interest. He kicked up a big stink and left September last year, made a post in November that I can find, then made about 30 posts over two or three days, then left again. He hasn't been back for four days.

bump