Since the beginning of time and as long as relationships have existed, couples have had to contend with the question of infidelity.

Is the person who actually leaves the marital bed ,by having sexual intercourse with another ,a worse sinner than the person who deosnt actually leave the marital bed but nonetheless fantasises about another..even emotionally loving another.

Would the other partner feels more betrayed by the actual act of infidelity..sharing anothers body..or would that partner feel more betrayed to know the partner was no longer in love with them or emotionally connected...but actually in love with another but never acknowledged or consumated?

I know which I would be more hurt by.

http://davidcutter.com/Images2/Full_Size_Illos/Cutter-INFIDELITY.jpg

Are you aware over 10% of aussie babies born within a marriage are not to the husband, unknown to him.

There is no blame assigned to the women that happily go to bed with a married man of some other woman, or to the wife of that man who drives him into the arms of another woman.
He would much rather be at home with his wife.

I half expect this posting to get deleted for flaming too.  
Don't expect me to post again here if it is.

I think this question is getting at assigning blame.  Maybe that does not need to be done.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 21^st, 2007 at 10:39pm:

Are you aware over 10% of aussie babies born within a marriage are not to the husband, unknown to him. There is no blame assigned to the women that happily go to bed with a married man of some other woman, or to the wife of that man who drives him into the arms of another woman. He would much rather be at home with his wife. I half expect this posting to get deleted for flaming too.   Don't expect me to post again here if it is.

Sprint i appreciate your genuine attempt at answering the topic...but what do you mean "no blame assigned to the woman or man who are driven into the arms of another" What if they man or woman, and I was careful to not mention a particular sex, because both are gulity of this, what ha[ppens if they fall in love with the partner outside the marriage..would it be a worse crime to physically consumate that feeling or not to and carry the love inside?

cautious connie wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2007 at 9:50am:

I think this question is getting at assigning blame.  Maybe that does not need to be done.

This question is far more than that connie...sorry you cant see that.
I know what I mean..and you were nowhere close with your judgement I can assure you.

As a woman..I feel it would be worse if my partner fell in love with another, rather than having sex with another. I cherish my partners love...

We can have sex with another for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with love I believe.

connie, maybe blame need not be laid.  Could be investigated as to why it happened though ?

oceans - the piccie of a man removing his wedding ring was not  - "and I was careful to not mention a particular sex, because " ???


If someone (a woman, for example) is so unloved within a marriage they go to someone else ( a man) to feel loved, it would not surprise me if they did fall in love.
Some of that responsibility belongs to the other person (husband) of the now defunct marriage.  
Had he worked at the marriage, she would not have strayed.

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oceans - the piccie of a man removing his wedding ring was not

Was just a pic to go with the topic and wasnt one the same depicting both.



Quote:

If someone (a woman, for example) is so unloved within a marriage they go to someone else ( a man) to feel loved, it would not surprise me if they did fall in love. Some of that responsibility belongs to the other person (husband) of the now defunct marriage.   Had he worked at the marriage, she would not have strayed

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Sprint hi..

So ok then..your line is that all parties take responsibility for theyre part in a relationship to make it work?

I agree btw..

So if the errent partner, the one who "caused" the partner to seek solace/love outside the union is indignant and self righteous and threateneing divorce..does she he have a right to be.? Should not a court take into account that this partner did nt uphold her responsibilty to love honour and obey-her/his partner?

What would the actual "scorned " partner be more upset about ..the emotional or physical.?

courts do not consider any fault.

the actual scorned partner is a manipulative selfish small hearted shallow person, they'll prob be upset by the fact the other one has loved and is loveable.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2007 at 3:33pm:

courts do not consider any fault. the actual scorned partner is a manipulative selfish small hearted shallow person, they'll prob be upset by the fact the other one has loved and is loveable.

Courts should consider fault, esp in this question, because it is a funadmental reason ties breakdown.



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the actual scorned partner is a manipulative selfish small hearted shallow person

I think this could be true in a lot of cases..but I think on the outside from societys point of vew...the scorned is seen as the victim, which then condones the victims sense of self righteiousness. For the worst thing that can happen in so called civilised society is for a partner to stray outside the bounds of marriage..regardless of the reason.


In this case the true victim would be the partner that has had his marital rights and concerns dismissed by his partner..amounting to marital  abuse..with holding sex is a classic case of this marital abuse.

I was not trying to offend you but I wonder what then is the point of the question if it is not to try to assign blame?

I think falling in love happens- it is hard to blame anyone for it. ut having sex requires physical acts driven by intention. So I guess the latter is least faithful because there is the most intent involved.

cautious connie wrote on Aug 22^nd, 2007 at 5:47pm:

I was not trying to offend you but I wonder what then is the point of the question if it is not to try to assign blame? I think falling in love happens- it is hard to blame anyone for it. ut having sex requires physical acts driven by intention. So I guess the latter is least faithful because there is the most intent involved.

You missed the whole point...so Im not surprised you dont see it.



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I was not trying to offend you

really?

Does falling in love really 'just happen.' Isn't the whole point of a marriage to have a public ceremony to let everyone know that these people are now 'off limits.' If you look around, you will find someone else to fall in love with. If you don't look, you won't.

I agree with Oceans, Sprintcyclist and Freediver - all the points are relevant.

Oceans - like you I would be very, very hurt if I found out my partner was in love with another woman, but staying with me because he believed he should.  I would also be hurt if he left - that's if I still cared for him.

Freediver - you are right.  If you get married - it should be a commitment by both parties to stay together, forget about feeding your ego somewhere else and work on what you have together.  

I agree mainly with Sprintcyclist (again)- when two people are together, they should both work on making the other person happy and be sensitive enough to recognise unhappiness in their partner and do something about it.

This is where people give up - and as a consequence most marriages are a farce.

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This is where people give up - and as a consequence most marriages are a farce

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I would agree, most marriages are a farce..

goes back to a thread I had up not long ago about why pple have to have the contract in the first place.

A contract should never be applied to matters of the heart and for those who say, marriage is for protection of the children I say if there is no mutual respect and love between partners they will not honour contracual agreements anyway, not in a way that will benefit children in the short meduim or long term.

If one partner feels restricted/trapped intially or after a while by a binding legal contract it tends to erode any love that may have first applied.

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If one partner feels restricted/trapped intially or after a while by a binding legal contract it tends to erode any love that may have first applied.

How true.  Marriage takes maturity and long term commitment - how many of us these days have those qualities - one partner usually does. but often the other doesn't.

Is it a sign of the times?  Our generation might be a bit cynical - but generation Y is even more so.  Young people today seem to have no interest in committing themselves long term to a marriage - maybe they haven't seen too many good examples.

Yes really.

I think people in a committed relationship should try to make the relationship work, for sure. But i also think that if either partner falls in love with someone else, nto because they are lookign for someone but because they do for whatever reason- neglect or otherwise at home, well that is what has happened. there is little benefit in pretending otherwise. But sex is an actual action that is taken by choice- that is unfaithfulness.

cautious connie wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2007 at 8:54pm:

Yes really. I think people in a committed relationship should try to make the relationship work, for sure. But i also think that if either partner falls in love with someone else, nto because they are lookign for someone but because they do for whatever reason- neglect or otherwise at home, well that is what has happened. there is little benefit in pretending otherwise. But sex is an actual action that is taken by choice- that is unfaithfulness.

and the topic is...


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[Would the other partner feels more betrayed by the actual act of infidelity..sharing anothers body..or would that partner feel more betrayed to know the partner was no longer in love with them or emotionally connected...but actually in love with another but never acknowledged or consumated

This was the question connie..your responses so far have not actually touched upon this .So what do you think.? This is the topic.

You tell me Im setting up a blame fest and now your trying to change the topic to suit yourself.

This reads rather sad..I feel sorry for this woman and yet she feels bad..


The Lover's Perspective on Infidelity

In most affairs, there are three players: (1) the wayward spouse, (2) the wayward spouse's lover and (3) the wayward spouse's spouse. My goal as a marriage counselor has been to help the wayward spouse leave the lover and reconcile with his or her spouse. That goal is achieved in most of the cases I've witnessed. The husband and wife learn to meet each other's emotional needs, ending the risk of divorce and future unfaithfulness.

But what happens to the lover? My plan of reconciliation seems to give lovers the boot, ignoring their feelings entirely. But in fact, my plan does take the feelings of lovers into account, and there are important and positive steps they can take to come out of the situation emotionally healthy and happy.

My plan for the lover is explained in my answers to the letters I am posting this week. The first letter is written by a married lover, and the second by a single lover.




Dear Dr. Harley,
I have read many books, searching for solutions to my particular problem, but I have found nothing that helps me. I have been married for 23 years to a very unkind and abusive man. Even though I have tried very hard to be the wife he needs, he continues to be cruel to me and critical of whatever I do.

A year ago I found myself very much in love with my employer. His wife became suspicious, and threatened to leave him, so we ended the working relationship. I am sorry to tell you we have resumed seeing each other....although the once every 2 or 3 weeks is a far cry from the 5-days a week we were seeing each other when I worked for him. We have tried to stay away from each other, but it never lasts.

Very little is written to help the "other woman". Lots out there for the tempted male, and for the deceived wife, but virtually nothing to help us "others" get free of the desire and weakness. I have prayed every prayer I know to pray, I have fasted several times, I have had religious counseling,....but all fail when this man calls me, needing me. This is the first time I have ever felt truly "loved". The pull is so strong -- if I give him up, I will never have another warm, loving, passionate relationship as long as I live. What do you suggest

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this woman should leave her spouse if possible..he has not honoured his vows and she is suffering.

What a tangled web we weave.  Yes Oceans - she should leave her husband.  If she's not in love with him anymore and she finds him cruel and abusive - there's no point staying.

She is the one who has been unfaithful though.  If her husband has been cruel and abusive for so long why has she stayed with him?

She sounds very confused and mixed up - but she's hurting herself, her husband and the wife of the man she's in love with.

Obviously her lover isn't prepared to leave his wife - so she needs to back off now, put it down to a sweet experience and go on alone and make a life for herself where no-one will get hurt.  She needs to concentrate on getting her mind sorted out first.

I hope that doesn't sound too callous - but I haven't much sympathy for her or her lover and feel a bit sad for the innocent parties.

I would feel more betrayed by the sexual act- that is obvious from what I said, which was intended to answer the question. I view sex as an intentional act. Falling in love is not. Therefore I would feel more betrayed by the person who was intentionally hurting me.

cautious connie wrote on Aug 25^th, 2007 at 7:32am:

I would feel more betrayed by the sexual act- that is obvious from what I said, which was intended to answer the question. I view sex as an intentional act. Falling in love is not. Therefore I would feel more betrayed by the person who was intentionally hurting me.

Thanks for that Connie..

I am opposite to you..although yes sex is an intentional act, it depends on what the intent is and why`..if the intent is borne from a hurt soul who believes I dont love him anymore or if he was intending to be deliberately cruel to make me" pay" for something, if he was merley acting out without much thought at all(it happens) then I would say, bad bad bad, but if he had nothing invetsed in the female I would think ok.."this is unforgiveable- but at least he never loved her"..for if he did love her, it means he,s replaced me and that would mean my time with him would have to end..i would end it.

I cant live without love.

I have had an unfaithful man..he didnt love his "conquests" but I believed he didnt love me either" although when we split he went to great pains to tell me he did. I could not feel it, that was the problem.

He went to other women to hurt me..he got whatever he wanted from me at home, I was niave and compliant. There was 11 yrs between us he was the older. It was the lack of love that hurt me the most...I couldnt get past it.

I had no choice but to leave.

I think a lack of love hurts and I do not like feeling unloved and unimportant. To me that he had sex with other women would be the significant factor. If he fell in love with someone else I would be hurt but I at least would not think he intended to hurt me. I would expect a lack of love to lead to a break-up though.

Sounds to me like this man attacked your self-esteem in a big way and it does not surprise me that you broke up. See, I think that  in choosing to be with other women sexually he is devaluing you and your relationship.  You are very very very likely better off without him- gives you a chance to build a new life.

cautious connie wrote on Aug 25^th, 2007 at 5:07pm:

I think a lack of love hurts and I do not like feeling unloved and unimportant. To me that he had sex with other women would be the significant factor. If he fell in love with someone else I would be hurt but I at least would not think he intended to hurt me. I would expect a lack of love to lead to a break-up though. Sounds to me like this man attacked your self-esteem in a big way and it does not surprise me that you broke up. See, I think that  in choosing to be with other women sexually he is devaluing you and your relationship.  You are very very very likely better off without him- gives you a chance to build a new life.

Yes he did..of course he  devalued me, no question about that. That was hard to deal with of course.

I am better off without him and the process of forgiving him took a long time. But I did and I have moved on.

The thing I most regret was the time I wasted with him.

If Id thought he,d loved me I may have been willing to stay.

Some pple dont know what love is.. I have to feel sorry for them , not me.