It seems I will be meeting with a muslim guy from work in a few weeks. That is great.
Just him and I in a neutral area, a library.
If anyone would like to ask him some questions, you can ask them here, I will post the reply here word for word.
You just have to trust me on that one.

My catholic friend has some questions she has forwarded, would anyone like her questions and the replies posted here as well ?

I feel really good about doing this.  I'm comfortable with posting anything I may not personally agree with.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 24^th, 2007 at 9:42pm:

It seems I will be meeting with a muslim guy from work in a few weeks. That is great. Just him and I in a neutral area, a library. If anyone would like to ask him some questions, you can ask them here, I will post the reply here word for word. You just have to trust me on that one. My catholic friend has some questions she has forwarded, would anyone like her questions and the replies posted here as well ? I feel really good about doing this.  I'm comfortable with posting anything I may not personally agree with.

Just make sure you are packing a Lueger and cops around the sides.

Ausnat - hahahha.
Initially he organised a meeting for me at his place with him and his "colleagues" to "help me with my misunderstanding" of the koran.
Ever been to a meeting where you are outnumbered ? Or on their stamping ground ?

It has taken me 3 weeks of emailing negotiations to get it at a neutral location with just him and I .
If any of his "colleagues happen to turn up", I'll just walk without a word.
It's been a good education for me already.

He absolutely refuses to discuss the Bible. He is terrified of it.

Why in a few weeks? Why not today? Why in a library, rather than over smoko?

It's just hard to organise a free tie for both of us freediver. The weeks I have my son/s I cant go.

I did offer a lunchtime meeting in a local park, he did not answer that one.
His idea of a library, apparently you can book private rooms there !!! I never knew that.
he said it would make it a more scholarily atmosphere, sounds ok to me.
Macdonalds is a good place to meet. Can get food thee too. that idea did not appeal to him though.

It's probably something to do with non halal food. Or he just hates McDonalds. Getting a room in a library sounds like a good idea, but I still don't get why you are making it so formal.

i didn't want to meet hm. He wantedt to have  a meeting with me.
To "correct my misunderstandings" of the koran.

maccas or the park would have suited me. They are not too formal are they ?
At his place being outnumbered is not a good way to go.  
better meeting in neutral area .  better not being outnumbered too.

By formal I meant the fact that you are organising a time and a place and going into so much negotiation before you even start discussing what you itnended to discuss. Something makes me think you won't actually get round to discussing anything other than who gets to talk and when etc.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2007 at 1:20pm:

i didn't want to meet hm. He wantedt to have  a meeting with me. To "correct my misunderstandings" of the koran.

Interesting, so he approached you to correct ur misunderstanding of the koran? how did he know that u read it, let alone misunderstood it? i'm guessing u approached him and told him about what u thought of the koran. If u did that, then him wanting to meet with you is quite normal.

by the way, is he a practising muslim?

freediver - I sort of have a feeling like that too. Unfortunately.
never mind,  who knows what will happen ?

skeptic - yes, he's a practising muslim.
The topic came up when he put a koran quote on the bottom of his work email to me.
I asked him to not send it to me as I don't like the koran.
Yes, wanting to meet is not abnormal.  
We've known each other for a few years, without discussing spiritual matters.

Sort of should not even have any religious stuff in work related emails anyway.
He's been cautioned about it before from IT.  Very PC place here

Why don't you invite him here? Written communication often works much better in that sort of situation because it is less confronting. People can relax, take their time, think before posting etc.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 25^th, 2007 at 3:15pm:

skeptic - yes, he's a practising muslim. The topic came up when he put a koran quote on the bottom of his work email to me. I asked him to not send it to me as I don't like the koran.

no worries, i was just asking since it would be a waste of ur time if he wasn't a practising muslim. so i take it he takes time off to pray, has his beard, islamic clothes, etc?

by the way, what was the quote on the email? was it offensive in any way?

haven't seen him praying, another person said they heard him praying for a while one day.
yep, he has a beard, normal clothes.

"Truly, it is by the Remembrance of Allah that hearts find rest." Quran 13:28
was the quote. not offensive at all

Like all spiritual things, should not be pushed onto others.  esp with such a specifically religious quote. ie, general "nice" sayings are ok.

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2007 at 3:19pm:

Why don't you invite him here? Written communication often works much better in that sort of situation because it is less confronting. People can relax, take their time, think before posting etc.

Somehow i dont think he'll feel very comfortable here mate!
I aint gunna quieten down! in fact i'll get much much LOUDER.

Freediver - I had never considered that.

Have now considered it, will do it.  I agree, wrirtten things do have advantages over the spoken word.
As a moderator, I try to be more neutral than I would be otherwise.
This is a part of that.

I have tried to find muslim chat rooms but can't seem to find any !


"You will travel most safely in the middle of the road."
Dr Bancroft, 1900s I believe.

Who wants to live a safe life ?

That's OK AN, if your antics are too much for him I can always give him his own board to moderate so he can set higher standards. Or, you could try being a bit more polite. It is genuinely intimidating for many people when they first start using online forums and I suspect many are turned away before they get a chance to appreciate the benefits. I would really love to have someone here who can advocate for Islam. The debate always seems to be so one sided.

i would love a muslim on here, so we can argue with someone who acttually know about islam.

Thanks freediver, AN and pender.
Perhaps if he is too busy a friend of his can blog here. Anyway, at the right time I will ask him.
Probably a good idea to tell him it is a fairly "robust" discussion.
However, the aninomity .... helps everyone.


I agree, it would be beneficial for any spiritual forum to have representation from all quarters.
And, it's entirely different to talk to someone themselves, rather than read the newspapers etc etc etc.
Ask your own questions, interact .  Entirely different.

Can you ask him to explain why :- Jesus is the christian version of "mohomad", they both preach love, forgiveness and peace on the path to a meeting with Divinity, muslims call it Alah, christians call it God, they are telling the same story in a different language, why is one right and the other wrong, who says that your path to divinity is not in a different direction to mine with the same meeting point (heaven).
Is it not the same as :- you and I meet at the bottom of a circle, you go left , I go right and we will meet at the top. Does that mean that one direction was the wrong one.

Then tell him to "take a smacking chill pill, mind your own business with regards to what other religions choose to believe and worry about your  own destiny. Now bugger off back to your war torn dump of a country slay some more human beings because they share their own interpretation of the Koran or the Bible and leave Australias multi cultural peace and acceptance the bugger alone!

Well maybe not the last bit ;D

merou wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 1:38pm:

Can you ask him to explain why :- Jesus is the christian version of "mohomad", they both preach love, forgiveness and peace on the path to a meeting with Divinity, muslims call it Alah, christians call it God, they are telling the same story in a different language, why is one right and the other wrong, who says that your path to divinity is not in a different direction to mine with the same meeting point (heaven). Is it not the same as :- you and I meet at the bottom of a circle, you go left , I go right and we will meet at the top. Does that mean that one direction was the wrong one. Then tell him to "take a smacking chill pill, mind your own business with regards to what other religions choose to believe and worry about your  own destiny. Now bugger off back to your war torn dump of a country slay some more human beings because they share their own interpretation of the Koran or the Bible and leave Australias multi cultural peace and acceptance the bugger alone! Well maybe not the last bit ;D

you have alot to learn my young friend.

muslims believe in jesus as well as the big M btw.

Classic Liberal wrote on Jul 27^th, 2007 at 10:51pm:

muslims believe in jesus as well as the big M btw.

No shite Einstein. So explain why they both can not be saying the same thing, describing "their" path to divinity.
Is it not possible that jesus, muhomed, buddha the Dalhi Lama, and all these "messiahs" are describing to the world, in their own words the path to divinity. It still does not mean one is more or less "correct" than the other.
Every single country, town, village, settlement, state etc on this planet has rules or laws based on a "religious" belief, maybe there is one "goal" with many paths.

Basicaly what if all the different spiritual or religious belief systems in the world tell the same story with different metaphors. Still they kill each other over their differing interpretations, look at shi-ite and sunni muslims for bugger sake.

merou wrote on Jul 28^th, 2007 at 12:14am:

Classic Liberal wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 10:51pm: muslims believe in jesus as well as the big M btw. No shite Einstein. So explain why they both can not be saying the same thing, describing "their" path to divinity. Is it not possible that jesus, muhomed, buddha the Dalhi Lama, and all these "messiahs" are describing to the world, in their own words the path to divinity. It still does not mean one is more or less "correct" than the other. Every single country, town, village, settlement, state etc on this planet has rules or laws based on a "religious" belief, maybe there is one "goal" with many paths. Basicaly what if all the different spiritual or religious belief systems in the world tell the same story with different metaphors. Still they kill each other over their differing interpretations, look at shi-ite and sunni muslims for bugger sake.

Christians and muslims never want to achieve "divinity".

Islam has no Messiah, nor does budhism.

if you knew anything of these religions you would know that they have completly different philosophies that contradict each other. Islam and Christianity do not focus at all on enlightenment, that is budhism. Islam focuses on submitting to god, christianity focuses on loving god, budhism focuses on loving oneself and improving oneself. To islam and christianity the budhist idea that human can achieve anything on their own is carazy.

Muslims find is repulsive that christians believe in a personal relationship between god and each person, much the same as father son/daughter.  

Have you ever wondered why socialists and capitalists fight? why cant they get along hey. lol

Pender that doesn't actually contradict what merou is saying.

Classic Liberal wrote on Jul 28^th, 2007 at 6:02pm:

Christians and muslims never want to achieve "divinity". Islam has no Messiah, nor does budhism. To islam and christianity the budhist idea that human can achieve anything on their own is carazy.

They are only interpreting their relevant text. Was Jesus a christian, was muhomad a muslim, the religions were based around these profits messages. That doesn't mean that Buddha, God and Alah are not the same "diety".
Actualy Pender I couldn't really give a flying bugger, as far as I'm concerned religion is merely a way of controlling society, they ALL preach love, and control is not love. They are all as bad as one another as far as critisizing another persons right to search for God in the best way they see fit.

Pender, what do you believe to be the situation regarding who is closest to the truth about life? who has more right to say "you got all wrong" you are obviously well schooled in all aspects of religion, I look forward to hearing your educated insight.

I invited here, via email.  
Thought it only fair to warn him he may find some comments here insulting.
My experience is any criticism is an insult.

So anyway, hope he turns up.

I hope he does too, I look forward hearing his view of the current state of religion and to understanding more about why the extremists views can differ so much from the every day muslims. I have known a few muslims and they didn't see blowing up non muslims as part of the Koran's message. It's not fair to judge a whole religion on by the actions of the extremists. Was the catholic church judged by the actions of the Knights Templar, it certainly isn't today.

good on you merou, now I can tell thim there is one other person would like to hear the muslim side from a muslim.

Are you afraid to meet him away from work Sprint - did you take the statement about correcting your interpretation of the Koran as a threat?

I think there are a lot of Muslims who are non-threatening.

the catholic church excommunicated the Knights templar, and led their dismantlement process, the same cannot be said for muslim religious leaders interraction with islamic terrorist groups.

what i was getting at before is that each religion teaches not only a different "path" but also a different result, or "meeting point". And so for someone to say that Budda and Jesus or anyone else were trying to or even unconciously attempting to achieve a parallel ends is an uneducated assumption.

Yes budda and jesus were both trying to inspire people to achieve something greater but that is where the simmilarity between the two stops. One could say a school teacher trys to inspire his/her pupils to something greater, does that make every school teacher a messiah and every school book a bible?

Besides jesus specifically states that the only way to the father is through him, i dont know how clearer you can get than that. Jesus believed 100% that everyone else was infact wrong or at least less right, and so christians must hold that same belief.

Hinduism for instance teaches of no heaven but instead reincarnation.

Buddhism teaches of nirvana which is different concept to heaven.

ancient Norse believed the more people they killed in battle the greater their reward.

the only reason islam, christianity and judaism have such similar beliefs is that they addmittedly come from the same source.

How can you say that neither the norse or the christians are more or less right than the other, when one calls for less killing and the other calls for more? cearly one here is right and the other is wrong. Unless ofcourse you describe to the post modern belief that right or wrong is simply perspective.

which may i ad is the most contradictory belief possible.

the catholic church excommunicated the Knights templar, and led their dismantlement process, the same cannot be said for muslim religious leaders interraction with islamic terrorist groups.

You mean like Hilaly getting fired, or muftis in the middle east denouncing terrorism?

Classic Liberal wrote on Jul 29^th, 2007 at 7:07pm:

Besides jesus specifically states that the only way to the father is through him, i dont know how clearer you can get than that.

Jesus might have been a liar? Maybe he needed to attract more followers and what better way to do when preaching to the gullible masses

Connie, no, not afraid to meet him away from work.
his comment about correcting my thoughts was taken as a sort of brainwashing cult style thing. "You will think how I think...."    The is no room for different interperetations or crtiicism.

the muslims are nonthreatening when they are vastly outnumbered. Is different in a muslim country.


freediver - hamas seem pretty comfortable with guns. I read somewhere now "only"  40 or 50% of a few muslim countries agree with suicide bombing.
That was meant to be an improvement !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you think hamas are driven by religion or politics?

freediver -  The religion IS the politics.  
Is why I feel politics and religion should be seperate.



The muslim guy sent this rely this morn :

"You said: A few of the guys there said they would like to hear what a muslim has to say.
I am glad that these "guys" want to hear what a Muslim has to say. If these people are in Brisbane please encourage them to come to the Open Day events that are held annually. If they are not in Brisbane,  let me know their cities and I would be more than happy to get them in touch with Muslims there.
I agree with you that chat rooms are not polite places. I have been to some and all that I can say is that, the chat rooms are not places for serious discussions. there are exceptions but these would be few and far between. Do encourage these people to come out for the open day. We have a BBQ and a children's corner as well (for those that have kids)."


Bit of a pity really, I'll still encourage him here.

Yes please do bring him here [smiley=evil.gif]

IQSRLOW wrote on Jul 29^th, 2007 at 7:27pm:

Classic Liberal wrote on Jul 29th, 2007 at 7:07pm: Besides jesus specifically states that the only way to the father is through him, i dont know how clearer you can get than that. Jesus might have been a liar? Maybe he needed to attract more followers and what better way to do when preaching to the gullible masses

that may be possible, but were nota rguing whether any of these prophets were liars.

freediver wrote on Jul 29^th, 2007 at 7:15pm:

the catholic church excommunicated the Knights templar, and led their dismantlement process, the same cannot be said for muslim religious leaders interraction with islamic terrorist groups. You mean like Hilaly getting fired, or muftis in the middle east denouncing terrorism?

Hilaly resigned.

and i dont recall the muftis ever organising the kidnapping and then trial of the 80 head terrorists in the world. The Church excommunicated then arrested all the leaders of the templars (a great effort went into this), and made sure they were no longer a functioning organisation.

Some would wonder why they didnt do this with the horrid efforts of some preists in the 20th century.

Hilaly only resigned in a technical sense. They had cut his pay check off for months.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2007 at 5:20pm:

Hilaly only resigned in a technical sense. They had cut his pay check off for months.

well i congratualte the muslims for cutting the pay cheque of a terrorist supporter, what an effort.

Our law enforcement did not get him on charges of terrorism support. His pay check was cut off over what he had been saying.

Hi IQSRLOW.
yes, he could have been a liar.
I would not lie in order TO be crucified.

So he was a martyr?

Maybe,  what was his cause ?
For whom did he martyr himself for ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 30^th, 2007 at 10:05pm:

Maybe,  what was his cause ? For whom did he martyr himself for ?

Do reasons justify actions?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 30^th, 2007 at 8:10pm:

yes, he could have been a liar.

sprintcyclist, up until now i thought u were a practising christian.

but that comment sounds like something an athiest would say, since a practising christian acknowledges Jesus as the Son of God/God without a doubt.

to say "he could have been a liar" is in itself doubt.

Skeptic, yes I'm a christian.

I also have a strong support of freedom of speech.  Well, it is a possibility, isn't it ??
Course, I don't think so.  But you are certainly entitled to your opinion here.

So, would you lie in order to get yourself crucified ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 31^st, 2007 at 10:49am:

Well, it is a possibility, isn't it ??

well, if u really think that it's possible that Jesus lied, then u can't call urself a practising christian.
part of being a practising christian is believing in Jesus without any doubt.

if u have doubt, and think it's possible that he lied, then u really aren't christian. have a think about it, do u really expect him to be ur saviour when u have doubts about what he said?

Do reasons justify actions?

Isn't that the definition of justification?

part of being a practising christian is believing in Jesus without any doubt

I thought it was acknowledging your own flaws, including doubt

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2007 at 11:17am:

part of being a practising christian is believing in Jesus without any doubt I thought it was acknowledging your own flaws, including doubt

yeah, ur supposed to acknowledge ur own flaws, but not that Jesus is flawed.

Jesus is infallible, i.e. perfect and without flaws. but to suggest he is a liar is suggesting he is flawed and therefore not infallible.

Sprint was acknowledging that he had doubts and could not claim to be completely certain. Didn't Jesus do something similar on the cross?

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2007 at 11:35am:

Sprint was acknowledging that he had doubts and could not claim to be completely certain.

christians are absolutely certain about Jesus, so if u have doubts and think that Jesus may have been a liar, then u can hardly call urself christian.

christians are absolutely certain about Jesus

They encourage certainty, just like they encourage a sin free life. But to say they are certain is like saying they are not sinners.

Hi skeptic and freediver,
Just a misunderstanding/ poor choice of words from me.

I meant "that is one way you could look at Jesus."  Freedom of speech skeptic.
I am ok with criticism on Jesus/christians etc etc.
Question I posed was, "Would you lie in order to be crucified ?"  Was my amswer as to the ... logic of Jesus being a liar.



My coming to Jesus was pretty dramatic. Think of the "road to damascus" style.
Thinking of it still brings tears to me, it was 8 years ago.
Yes, I know Him personally. So obviously He is the real deal.  I'm absolutely certain.
I'm also a sinner.  I'm certain of that one too !!

sprintcyclist, did u end up meeting ur muslim co-worker?
what happened?

Hi skeptic, how have you been ?  Yes, met with him, it all went pretty well.  
He did the vast majority of the talking.
I felt he was keen to explain his belief and put the muslim side across.
Probably quite hard being in a christian country feeling you get bad press coverage.

I gave him some questions from another guy and the muslim guy went into great detail on the answers, which was a pity as I did not get to ask any of my questions !!
It's interesting, what and how they believe/think.
I'ld like a few more meetings.

Will post the Q and A when he emails his answers to me. They were theological questions, also gave him a question pender asked.


Seems they are not too keen on any criticism.  He said he is considering coming here to answer questions. That'ld be good.
I happy to pass on questions to him if you have any and post the replies back.  


Before the meeting I got a quote for him (about the 4th for him I think) . This ones really complex, I'll have to do some homework on it for him to explain it to him before I pass it on..
It's one of the ones I don't understand either.



Take care skeptic

Question for him: Is Islam inherently violent?

was the answers he gave quite surprising, i.e. did u expect it?
or was the same old stuff u expected to hear?

Will send the query on freediver.

Skeptic - His answers were pretty much what i expected.  
It'ld be nice if he came here to answer stuff.  He's alright.
I can say what I think of it pretty neutrally, but is better if a muslim answers queries on muslim stuff.

Seems their belief is based on deeds. They are pretty "intense" and "serious" about it.
Feels to me they are more driven to a goal than drawn to one.

One answer he gave that I have heard is the word "allah" appears in the Bible.
From what I pick up, they are ok with the Old Testament, but feel the New Testament is completely corrupted by the different versions . Those were the sort of questions I had, that were not aired, unfortunatley.
I'll send him a few like that too.

Take care

http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking-news/youth-day-organisers-meet-muslims/2007/08/14/1186857503807.html

Islamic leaders have met with the organisers of the Catholic Church-sponsored World Youth Day 2008, and a similar briefing is planned for Jewish leaders.

Hundreds of thousands of pilgrims are expected to descend on Sydney for World Youth Day, which will be held from July 15 to July 20 next year.

A little bit more of that article :

"The Islamic leaders have been asked to inform their followers about the event to help minimise any inter-faith tension, Bishop Fisher said."

Puts quite a different slant on it .


"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
2 John 1:7

Make what you will of it.
Muslims believe Jesus was only a prophet, nothing more .
Despite all of the prophecies given about him in the Old testament, oh, they also recognise the Old testament is being ok too.
Make what you will of that too.

sprint, ur last post didn't make any sense.

the verse mentions those "deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ", then u proceed to say that muslims recognise Jesus.

so how is that verse supposed to be related to them?

Muslims accept Jesus as just a prophet.
They don't accept him as being The Messiah, they find an idea of him being the Son of God as ludicrous. The idea of him being God also even crazier.

So they don't accept him as The Annointed One who came in the flesh .
They dont accept the whole of the new testament or any of the prophecies given about him in the Old Testament.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 16^th, 2007 at 3:15pm:

Muslims accept Jesus as just a prophet. They don't accept him as being The Messiah, they find an idea of him being the Son of God as ludicrous. The idea of him being God also even crazier. So they don't accept him as The Annointed One who came in the flesh . They dont accept the whole of the new testament or any of the prophecies given about him in the Old Testament.

as far as i'm aware, the only difference between muslims and christians in relation to Jesus is that muslims don't think he is God or the Son of God.

but both christians and muslims see him as the messiah.

I'll ask that muslim guy that.
I though Jesus was only seen as a prophet by muslims, not the Messiah, I could be wrong.
he's still getting back about other questions I'll post here.


Christians see him as the Messiah,  imho Jews are still waiting for the Messiah.
muslims think he was just a prophet. I think they pretty much disregard the Bible.
Another query for him.


Seems muslims also see God as being "far away and untouchable", incomparable.
He no longer talks to anyone.
Last one He had a chat with was mohammad the mass murdering paedophile.
That's what mohammad told them anyway.

Muslims have no messiah.


jesus is not very important to them.

to muslims god is a master and they are servents/slaves. to christians god is father and theya re children.

And who is it the muslims cherish.........

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x142/AUSNAT_PHOTOS/mo-aisha1.jpg

Mohammed Married Aisha when she was 6 years old, Procreated with her when she was 9.
He was 50.

Now theres a very interesting theological point you bought up there ausnat.

mohammad was born 616 years after Jesus died on the Cross.
Frm what you said, he shagged a 9 year old when he was 50.
Makes it 666 years from Jesus sacrifice.


"so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.  This calls for wisdom.
If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number.
His number is 666."
Revelation 13:17-18


"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
2 John 1:7  

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 16^th, 2007 at 11:18pm:

Now theres a very interesting theological point you bought up there ausnat. mohammad was born 616 years after Jesus died on the Cross. Frm what you said, he shagged a 9 year old when he was 50. Makes it 666 years from Jesus sacrifice. "so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.  This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." Revelation 13:17-18 "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." 2 John 1:7

And an excellent point you bring up there Rev Sprincyclist.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 16^th, 2007 at 11:18pm:

Now theres a very interesting theological point you bought up there ausnat. mohammad was born 616 years after Jesus died on the Cross. Frm what you said, he shagged a 9 year old when he was 50. Makes it 666 years from Jesus sacrifice. "so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.  This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." Revelation 13:17-18

interesting point u make sprintcyclist, that is until u look up ur facts and u realise that muhammed was born is 570, not 616 (well according to wikipedia anyway).

did u just make that whole thing up??

no, I read it somewhere on the net. Which is probably the lamest reply I could ever give !!!!!!1

Who knows, I 'll have a search .

Well, found dates 868, 570 , 571.  570/1 seem the most common.
My mistake

Someone  ask for Muslim input?  8-)


My name's Adz, I'm 23 m and living in Melbourne.. I'll be your designated Muslim.. I do a lot of interfaith work and would be pleased to help in any way I can. If you have a question I cannot answer I will endeavor to find an answer for you.. So what questions do you guys actually have?

Okay, now I already see a few questions/accusations here which I will try and clarify.. Muhammad peace be upon him was about 570 CE

Also, Regarding the age of Aisha at the time of her marriage to Muhammad pbuh (peace be upon him).

Even though some hadith sources state that she married him at 6 and consumated at 9, I and many other Muslims disagree with this statement.. But why do we?

Well from the available evidence and testing we have found that Aisha was in between 10-14 when she married Muhammad and between 14-20 when she consummated her marriage with him.

Here are a few pieces of the evidence this is based on.

   * Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.

   * Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.

   * According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.

   *According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha - if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

There is a site online where it shows alot of the evidence. Please go to http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm for more info.

Massalaama (Go with peace),

Adz

PS. If you have questions about Islam please feel free to ask them, However it is proper etiquette when discussing matters of such sensitivity to do so politely. I am not going to try and insult Christianity or any other religion because people have faith in it and it's not appropriate. I would appreciate the same from people on this forum. Derogatory cartoons of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him are counter productive and evidence of one not actually having sincere and genuine questions about Islam that need clarification, but instead wanting to insult.. I see that as no benefit to any of us.

Hi malik ,
thanks for turning up.
For a long time I have invited muslims here to give their perspective, to no avail.


In aussie everything is open to be questioned.
If anything cannot be tested thoroughly there is something inherently wrong with it.
We are not here to ascribe to your thoughts and wishes.
If you cannot accept questioning,  it reflects on you.



"But he was pierced for our transgressions,
      he was crushed for our iniquities;
      the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
      and by his wounds we are healed. "
Isaiah 53:5

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 25^th, 2008 at 9:19pm:

Hi malik , thanks for turning up. For a long time I have invited muslims here to give their perspective, to no avail. In aussie everything is open to be questioned. If anything cannot be tested thoroughly there is something inherently wrong with it. We are not here to ascribe to your thoughts and wishes. If you cannot accept questioning,  it reflects on you.

Thank you Sprint, I am glad to be here.

Do you think Muslims may not be turning up on the site because of the blatant disrespect and complete lack of decency and etiquette that you show towards their beliefs?

Please do not try and make it look like I am discouraging you from asking questions about Islam. It is very evident by my post that I have not done that at all. Thus nothing of the sort will be reflecting on me.

I have no problems with you asking me any questions whatsoever, I certainly won't be offended by genuine questions and I definitely encourage you to ask them. But how do you expect to engage in meaningful and respectful dialogue when you outwardly go out to explicitly insult my faith?

Massalaama

Adz

mailk - if I answer your query honestly, will you disappear into the internet ether citing "disrespect"??

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 25^th, 2008 at 10:17pm:

mailk - if I answer your query honestly, will you disappear into the internet ether citing "disrespect"??

I don't believe I had a query for you to answer Sprint..

Like I said, all interfaith dialogue requires is common decency and respect. I engage in interfaith dialogue with people of all faiths including Chrisitans and Jews and I have had many great times doing so. We get to know each other and share our experiences and build really great bonds..

I'd like to be able to speak with people of other faiths on here and clarify their misconceptions of Islam.. I just hope that we can do this all respectfully.

Quote:

Do you think Muslims may not be turning up on the site because of the blatant disrespect and complete lack of decency and etiquette that you show towards their beliefs?

I believe that is a query.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 25^th, 2008 at 10:42pm:

Quote: Do you think Muslims may not be turning up on the site because of the blatant disrespect and complete lack of decency and etiquette that you show towards their beliefs? I believe that is a query.

Ahhh touche.. lol..

Answer away.

Massalaama

Adz

I am not trying to trick you malik.
I do appreciate having you here.

Just cautious of not losing someone who might be a contributor here.
We have had no muslims here, which in the spiritual sense is unbalanced.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 25^th, 2008 at 11:36pm:

I am not trying to trick you malik. I do appreciate having you here. Just cautious of not losing someone who might be a contributor here. We have had no muslims here, which in the spiritual sense is unbalanced.

Thank you for your kind words, if your intention is sincere in having balanced spiritual chat then I am sure that we can have dialogue in a very respectful manner with each other. I am happy to have that my friend.

:)

Sprint don't go assuming no-one else here is a muslim. Not everyone wears their religion on their sleeve.

My main gripe with Islam, and with many other religions is that they all try to teach children that their way is the one true way. My own view is that children deserve the opportunity to wait until they are adults before deciding which religion to follow.

We don't have schools teaching kids how to be good Liberals or good ALP voters, so why teach them how to be good Methodists or Catholics or Muslims?  My somewhat cynical answer to that is that if we didn't brainwash them at childhood, we'd probably have a nation of atheists. Now that would be a terrible thing, wouldn't it?  :P

Seriously though, if you're going to teach kids about religion, I think it should include all religions in a balanced way, and that includes the fact that a growing number of people (myself included) have no religion - a personal worldview that I believe deserves to be respected.    

On the other hand I have no trouble with teaching kids about maintaining their culture. The problem is that religion and culture are often intricately entwined. The religion comes as a free 'gift' along with the culture.

Malik.Shakur - Welcome to the forum. Which culture do you belong to? I admire your tenacity in trying to tell us your side of the story. I have good friends of many different cultures and religions, so although I'm an atheist myself, I am tolerant of other religions to the point of defending their individual right to practice their religion as they see fit. (but that does not include brainwashing the young and vulnerable)  

I have more tolerance for non-extremist religious people than I have for extremists, whether religious or atheist.

You're not an extremist now, are you?   ;D

My own view is that children deserve the opportunity to wait until they are adults before deciding which religion to follow.

It is impossible to deny them that opportunity. Plenty of people change their mind as a grown up.

We don't have schools teaching kids how to be good Liberals or good ALP voters, so why teach them how to be good Methodists or Catholics or Muslims?

I spent one year in a private church run school. I wasn't taught anything about being a 'good Christian', but I was forced to go to church twice a week, which bored me shitless. Outside of that, there was an expectation to protect the school's reputation in public, which was little more than fairly obvious and universal standards of being a good citizen.

On the other hand I have no trouble with teaching kids about maintaining their culture.

I do. The only thing worse than compulsory church attendance was being forced to maintain my culture by learning to dance the heal and toe polka at the public school I attended. This was supposed to be sport, but they seemed to think it was better to churn out fat slobs who thought English dances that the English long ago forget about are better than the haka or something.

FD, ok - From your blog, I had kind of assumed that you were a Christian. Maybe you're saying that you became a Christian despite your educational experience.

Actually most schools in Australia, religious ones included, teach about a wide range of religions.  I don't have a problem with providing information on religions. I do have a problem with sending kids to church or mosqué against their will, because whatever you call it, being forced to repeat sacred verses is a form of brainwashing.

I think the only kind of brainwashing that is acceptable is voluntary brainwashing or self brainwashing (cognitive programming), which I use on myself regularly whenever I want to achieve a particular goal.  

Yesterday, I saw a full on Jewish kid, maybe 3 or 4 and I dont believe he had any say in the way he was dressed or his hair was cut, none at all, you think he has a choice on his future. You underestimate the power of programming, its effective on the young and vulnerable.

Umm, how many three or four year olds do have a say in what they wear or how their hair is cut? Just because a style is associated with a religion does not make it a form of brainwashing.

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2008 at 9:41pm:

Umm, how many three or four year olds do have a say in what they wear or how their hair is cut? Just because a style is associated with a religion does not make it a form of brainwashing.

They lose more than their hair too. (a foregone conclusion?)

I'll try to find the transcript, but there was a guy on ABC talking about Liberal and liberal education around January. Big 'L' liberal is about kids living like ferals, being disorganised and showing disrespect etc. He has a problem with that, and so do I. Small l liberal is about leaving the big things in life open to question - encouraging kids to question established ideas. In other words making decisions based on thought processes rather than by referring to higher authorities (and I don't mean God) and taking their answers on faith based on their reputation.

There is evidence that an education system that doesn't block free thought processes, produces adults with higher intelligence levels.

Don't take it on faith - I'll Google the references if you're not convinced.    

Freediver, once again you miss the point, by the time this kid grows up he will already have been programmed, at some point he may question what happened but the chances are, he wont. I went to a public school. the kids that went to the Catholic school in my hometown had the best of everything. Im not that sure a Polka is an English dance either.

at some point he may question what happened but the chances are, he wont

Everybody questions their indoctrination at some point. People are not robots.

Really, take a look at all the little gangsters, thinking their 50cent, white kids who think their black, all they do is listen to a little music and watch a few movies. Yet they have taken too a lifestyle, is it by choice or is it all they know.

;D

You think 'being black' is the only thing a white kid knows? What age did their parents start indoctrinating them in the ways of black culture? 3? 4?

If you ever left your house you might learn something

In fact, this whole 'being black' thing is a good example of children rejecting what they are indoctrinated with and choosing an alternative. You just don't like what they choose, so you convince yourself it could only happen through some kind of brainwashing.

The difference is a family is not going to do much to a kid pretending to be black, what happens to young Muslim kids who want to rebel.

freediver wrote on May 30^th, 2008 at 12:37pm:

In fact, this whole 'being black' thing is a good example of children rejecting what they are indoctrinated with and choosing an alternative.

Thats not true Freediver.
Its the lack of a decent role model or models.
Hollywood and MTV exploit these kids who lack a role model and mould them in their own image as 'wiggers' and 'hoes' in order to make lots of money off them. and hell it works.
Using scum from the gutter with the likes of XZIBIT and Beyonce and so forth is all the youth of today has.
They look up to these idiots and try to be them.
It has nothing to do with rebellion, but a lack of decent role models


Quote:

You just don't like what they choose, so you convince yourself it could only happen through some kind of brainwashing.

Oh but it does Freediver. Sit back one night in front of the idiot box listen to every word, watch every action watch for a pattern and think outside the box. there you are.

(makes note to self)

Must take a break from sport and watch TV some time. It sounds scary.

Oh but it does Freediver. Sit back one night in front of the idiot box

There's your problem right there. You can't expect to get any real impression of what is happening in our society by watching TV. If you watch crap shows, you will think everyone is an idiot. Stop watching big brother.

You really need to go out at night where the young people are to see what is going on FD, its not the rosy place you think it is. To quote from Grand Master Flash, its a jungle out there.