I'm interested to hear your opinion on Howard's decision to ban alcohol and pornography in the Northern Territory among Aboriginals.

Do you think John Howard is genuinely concerned about this? Or do you think it's an election ploy and it'll be all back to normal if he wins the election later this year?


Personally, I think it's quite obvious he's doing this for election purposes. He's a liberal... liberals do what the public wants at any given time. Flexible basterds basically.

I think he is genuinely concerned for the kids.  The timing has to do with the release of the report.
Mind you, he will make the most of it politically.

he is more a relentless bastard, than a sneaky one. He will do whatever is required to get back in.
I admire that.

He has an ace up his sleeve and his timing is perfect.
I reckon about 3 weeks before the election, he will pull a master move.

Quote:

He has an ace up his sleeve and his timing is perfect.   I reckon about 3 weeks before the election, he will pull a master move.

This is his ace sprintcyclist and by the looks of it so far it might backfire on him.  Yes it's a great idea in theory - but no plans or back up have been put in place.

His timing is good though - especially as for the last few months Mal Brough has been trying to do a land control deal with our indigenous people for $60 million.  This has failed and a week or so ago Brough said he had withdrawn the money.  A couple of days later Howard pulls this out of his hat.  Great potential to increase his popularity before the election.

All these grand plans - but one step at a time.  First the army and the police and down the track - after Howard has won the election, we will hear no more about it.

There are no schools for the aboriginal children to go to in many of these remote communities.  There are no health services eg detox, rehabilitation, parenting classes, doctors, nurses etc.  All aboriginal parents will have their welfare halved - no porn, no alcohol and no jobs.

This hasn't been thought through.  In theory it sounds great - "Save the children" - sure to tug on the heartstrings of those who have no idea about aboriginal culture or their social disadvantages.

This one was a response to a report.  
That is all, it is just the straight forward plan of actions John does that surprises everyone.  
He just wades in and does it.

John will not back away form the kids in peril there. nor will brough or the media.
It appeals to all parents.

Johnny has an ace up his sleeve. Something else. I can just feel it.  He has it cold.
I have faith in him  :-)

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2007 at 4:37pm:

This one was a response to a report.   That is all, it is just the straight forward plan of actions John does that surprises everyone.   He just wades in and does it. John will not back away form the kids in peril there. nor will brough or the media. It appeals to all parents. Johnny has an ace up his sleeve. Something else. I can just feel it.  He has it cold. I have faith in him  :-)

Stooge factor

You  just scored 5/5 and a set of steak knives Sprint..but wait theres more..a 12 month subscription to "Stooge Monthly".


"TA DA"  *Insert game show music here.*

Johnny is sure out to score brownie points for the next election.Disingenious and light on credibility these days.

Do you think John Howard is genuinely concerned about this? Or do you think it's an election ploy and it'll be all back to normal if he wins the election later this year?

Ultimately it doesn't matter what his motives are. He won't suddenly drop the issue just because he gets elected.

He has an ace up his sleeve and his timing is perfect.

A similar thing happened with climate change. He had a big 'report' timed to come out just before the election which would allow him to do a backflip and save face, if the need arose.

To me it seems more that the state premiers are trying to score points of this issue at the cost to aboriginal children:

http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1178691492/40#40

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2007 at 4:37pm:

This one was a response to a report.   That is all, it is just the straight forward plan of actions John does that surprises everyone.   He just wades in and does it. John will not back away form the kids in peril there. nor will brough or the media. It appeals to all parents. Johnny has an ace up his sleeve. Something else. I can just feel it.  He has it cold. I have faith in him  :-)

The questin is though, Sprint, would he have done it if this issue was raised before an election? Or possibly if the issue was not being reported in the media?

I think he's just taking advantage of popular public opinion.

That's what politicians are supposed to do - respond to the will of the people.

Donald, he woujld have done it whenever. there was a report come out that brough has taken to his heart.
Howard takes action irregardless of the electrole result. eg GST, war in iraq. He knows us aussies well.
Brough gave a very passionate honest talk about it this morning on the radio.
Saying those that want to stop howards plans are allowing others kids to be abused while theirs sleep safely.

Aside from that, i reckon john has something up his sleeve.

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2007 at 7:33pm:

That's what politicians are supposed to do - respond to the will of the people.

Wonder why they don't respond to the people's calls to break its alliance with the USA?  ::)

The will of the people means nothing when they have no idea what they're talking about. People are sheep. The Government should do what's best for the people... not to win elections.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2007 at 8:02pm:

Donald, he woujld have done it whenever. there was a report come out that brough has taken to his heart. Howard takes action irregardless of the electrole result. eg GST, war in iraq. He knows us aussies well. Brough gave a very passionate honest talk about it this morning on the radio. Saying those that want to stop howards plans are allowing others kids to be abused while theirs sleep safely. Aside from that, i reckon john has something up his sleeve.

I'll definitely agree no other politician knows the Australian people quite as well as John Howard.

Wonder why they don't respond to the people's calls to break its alliance with the USA?

Because that's not what the people are calling for.

The will of the people means nothing when they have no idea what they're talking about. People are sheep.

So are politicians. The only thing worse than 'the people' being in charge is a few politicians being in charge.

Quote:

The only thing worse than 'the people' being in charge is a few politicians being in charge.

That is true Freediver.

Sprintcyclist - Howard never mentions his plans during an election campaign (nuclear power/GST/IR reforms/Sale of Telstra & many others) - but immediately after he has got in again, legislation is rushed through in the dead of night.

These are not the actions of a strong man - many of these policies should have been taken to a referendum before he imposed them, because those who voted for him suddenly realise they have been deceived.

As far as Brough's heartbreak over 'the Report"  and Howard's decisive action - he's had dozens of them over the past 11 years, most of them equally as damning as this "Sacred Children" report.

He is extremely cunning - but in a decade or so when we see the damage done through his policies - history will have him tagged as one of the worst primeministers Australia has ever seen because of his total focus on "the economy" and the total disregard for the those he has trampled on to achieve this.

What rot

Those who voted for him knew exactly what they were getting and agreed with policy and going to a referendum on individual issues is not the mark of a strong politician, it's the mark of a weak one. Popular opinion is no way to run a country

As far as Brough's heartbreak over 'the Report"  and Howard's decisive action - he's had dozens of them over the past 11 years, most of them equally as damning as this "Sacred Children" report.

Your shallowness and hatred for the current govt is only overshadowed by your complete lack of empathy...either that or it shows how much of a shill you are

He is extremely cunning - but in a decade or so when we see the damage done through his policies - history will have him tagged as one of the worst primeministers Australia has ever seen because of his total focus on "the economy" and the total disregard for the those he has trampled on to achieve this.

I think that his tenure so far shows exactly the opposite as well as highlights the fact that Labor over the last 10+ years has been the most dysfunctional opposition in the history of Australian politics...and that's something that doesn't look like changing.

Quote:

highlights the fact that Labor over the last 10+ years has been the most dysfunctional opposition in the history of Australian politics

I actually agree with you on that part of your statement IQ - you must have your thinking cap on or else your partner in crime been giving you some pointers.

The section in quotes above indicates exactly why Howard has stayed in power so long.

As far as empathy goes - I would feel a lot more emphathic if Howard also had some health services, counsellors  and jobs available to help these people through not only alcohol withdrawal, but also assist them with some basics like parenting, hygiene and allow them some hope for the future.

Our indigenous people are scared - they have no idea what is going to happen and have had no warning or consultation in regard to this intervention.

Actually the last consultation Mal Brough had with them was in regard to land control.  He offered them $60 million a few weeks ago - he would help them if they would hand over control of their land to the government.  They refused.

You have to wonder why people are cynical of Howard's motives - particularly so close to the election.

I think that his tenure so far shows exactly the opposite as well as highlights the fact that Labor over the last 10+ years has been the most dysfunctional opposition in the history of Australian politics...and that's something that doesn't look like changing.  


mantra, IQs statement was a "no brainer"and thats how she likes it..nuff said!!! :)

Anyone could see the oppostion has offered up no real alternative ..the only reason Libs keep getting back in. Go figure!

The section in quotes above indicates exactly why Howard has stayed in power so long.

It also indicates that the incumbent govt has been doing things right, formulating the correct policies and generally pipping the opposition at every post...yet you consider the dysfunctional mish mash of opposing parties as a viable alternative?


oceanz wrote on Jun 28^th, 2007 at 1:10pm:

Blah, blah, blah...I have nothing of value to add to anything except putting the sick back into sycophant

Generally, a poor opposition party also leads to a poor government. It is competition that keeps poilitical parties on their toes.

I think it is undoubtedly an election ploy, trying to drive a race based wedge between Labor and the Libs. I hope it fails.  I suspect Rudd is not without his own political "cleverness"

cautious connie wrote on Jun 29^th, 2007 at 8:12am:

I think it is undoubtedly an election ploy, trying to drive a race based wedge between Labor and the Libs. I hope it fails.  I suspect Rudd is not without his own political "cleverness"

Well... whilst I support Howard's move... I think it will be short-lived.

Rudd is more clever than a lot of people think. If anyones gonna beat Howard.. it's Rudd.

Do you "know" or have reason for saying that about Rudd or just have that feeling like I do from watching an interview with him?

I have doubts about the exact methodology for helping the abused kids in those communities. I don't even think I have seen it fully written up anywhere.

However there is already legislation that deals with child  abuse and it should  be enacted. If the federal government puts in additional funds to make sure it could be perhaps that would be sufficent. To use the oportunity to assume extra control over people and erode the rights of welfare recipients is not the answer. It is not becasue they are welfare recipients that these child abusers are criminal- it is because they are child-abusers.

Rudd is a flake. His past history has shown that. He stopped a dam being built in QLD years ago, saying "we will never have a drought.".
he has lost his honeymoon with the media and now is in freefall.
Good riddance to the danger of a smirking self serving porky shadow.


making kids go to school and banning alcohol from camps is a good start to helping aboriginals.
These people are getting drunk all day on my taxes then preying on kids.
If you want to oppose actions to taken to cease that behaviour, up to you.
My kids go to school and sleep safely.  many others do not.

If the kids were going to school regularily they have the wild possibility of escaping poverty.
They might stop sniffing petrol and might live past 42 years old.  
If kids are being abused and uneducated even though they are given the money to, it is up to us to try something else.  maybe 1/2 the welfare in food. 1/2 in cash.
There is nothing to spend it on there anyway.

Sexual abuse is the most damaging crime. It haunts the victims for decades later.

Do you think banning alcohol will mean it will nto be obtained or made? Do you think cutting welfare payments to those parents whose kids do not attaend school will help anyone? In an environment where adults cannot be trusted nto to abuse children, maybe it is the independent kids who think for themselves or the troubled ones who have been abused that stay away from school. What if the father abuser now has a golden reason to spend time with his young lad taking him to school and "waiting" to make sure he goes in?

These rules sound sensible but are they unrealistic? I knew a country school once where a large proportion of the kids bussed into town on the school bus, got off at school and immediately wandered in to town and missed school. Some of those kids were brought to school by mum, then left as soon as she did. Is alcohol that is bought on the blackmarket or distilled locally any better for the people who drink it or the children who are abused?  Is a mother trying to protect kids from abuse any better off and more able to do so becasue half her welfare payment is gone?

If the law is enough protection for white families then it is also enough protection for aboriginal families. If it happens that there is child abuse going on then the criminals should be arrested and the children's situation and best interest investigated  - white or black.

Well said Connie - I agree.  The tough new measures will help very little.  The law enforcement may initially see some results - but cutting welfare in half and providing coupons will still lead to corruption and definitely not help a mother raise her children at a higher standard.  Now that the permit system is to be abolished there will be no reason why peddlars of alcohol, drugs and petrol will not be bartering with the remainder of their cash.

There are too few schools nearby in many remote settlements and a shortage of teachers.  Health & welfare services have been crying out for help for years - but there has been no-one listening.

I find it difficult to imagine Howard suddenly coming up with all these social workers, doctors nurses and teachers to help these people get back on their feet.

What the government and the mining companies are doing though is taking control of their land - building modest homes on a plot of land and leasing it back to them for 99 years.  As far as the rest of the native title land goes - well that is up for grabs to the highest bidders - and it won't be our indigenous people.

You'd be far happier with the status quo would you Mantra...? It's really all one big land grab conspiracy theory...?

The situation that some of the indigenousness population are in lies purely at the feet of State Govts...Labor govts. The leftists who have traditionally held the reins on these issues have taken us down the wrong path with a softly-softly approach and it hasn't worked despite the exceptionally large sums of money already thrown at it, frittered away through a typical Labor bureaucracy. ATSIC was another failure of the left  

Bout time someone stood up and had some gonads. It certainly wasn't going to be the left.

mantra wrote on Jun 30^th, 2007 at 9:41pm:

Well said Connie - I agree.  The tough new measures will help very little.  The law enforcement may initially see some results - but cutting welfare in half and providing coupons will still lead to corruption and definitely not help a mother raise her children at a higher standard.  Now that the permit system is to be abolished there will be no reason why peddlars of alcohol, drugs and petrol will not be bartering with the remainder of their cash. There are too few schools nearby in many remote settlements and a shortage of teachers.  Health & welfare services have been crying out for help for years - but there has been no-one listening. I find it difficult to imagine Howard suddenly coming up with all these social workers, doctors nurses and teachers to help these people get back on their feet. What the government and the mining companies are doing though is taking control of their land - building modest homes on a plot of land and leasing it back to them for 99 years.  As far as the rest of the native title land goes - well that is up for grabs to the highest bidders - and it won't be our indigenous people.

This is whole exercise is a disgusting ploy to boost his election chances.


There never was any serious intent on behalf of Howard to address this problem .

As you say Mantra there are scarce resources out there ie the Social Service workforce, so yes where will he come up with all these skilled and needed pple at such short notice? the short answer is , he cant and wont find them..they simply aren't there. There is National shortage of Social Workers and nurses have been scarce for years. He hasnt supported the training and skills shortage you see.

Cutting welfare payments will not work..it is forcing a mentality of compulsion upon a minority pple already controlled and compellled to the endth degree for the longest time. It hasnt worked in the past and will only work for as long as the 'presence' ie Police etc are there to enforce it. And the Police simply arent that plentiful .

The banning of alcohol will only bring out the opportunists who will supply grog and weed to them..they ,who sell weed to communties , Aborigines and children  are theyre main customers.

They , the whites,arrive at the Ind camps on payday and most of theyre pay goes on weed and grog.





As for sexual abuse..young Ind girls will trade sex for a cigerrette,  a beer weed, petrol etc, you name theres nothing they cant buy with sex.Mainly oral for the taxidriver who deliver theirr weed or grog.These are white men who receive these sexual favours from children and young girls. They are abused by black and white pple.

The Police know and in a large number of cases are involved in the illegal drug trade and receiving payments from dope growers for turning a blind eye.

Howard has absolutely no idea what he's dealing with.He wants to make a quick name for himself  at the expense of Ind. pple.

The children are, a lot of them sold into prostitution by parents to secure mainly grog for parents or whoever...Children out here are raped and noone reports it in the newspapers or media, its only Aboriginal children-who cares? They are left with stds and the side effects of abuse. It is not a one off thing it is repeated.



Forcing children to go to school..will work for as long as someone is there to Police the situation.

Out here in this community , kids get to the school gate and turn around walk right out., wagging for the day again..Ind kids wander the streets all day and we all know they should be at school. Schools arent equipped to meet theyre needs anyway.And they experience a high degree of rascism from kids and teachers.

The Government has neglected to take a systematic and sincere approach to this problem.. The police cannot cure a Social illness..these problems are Social..how can the Army and the Police and a huge dose of intimidation and fear cure the problems of the psyche? The built up poison of 200 yrs of the depths of depression, deprivation, loss of human rights  and lack of recognition as a pple and the right to have a job and build a future for themselves without the institutionalisation of every aspect of theyre lives , leftover from a system that stems from the the 1700s,?

Welfare legislation is only just being reworked and Ind pple are certainly no better off under the new legislation , from what Ive seen as they were previously., in some cases its worse. More compulsion and punishments.

Its a joke. It will further marginalise and hurt Ind pple and the biggest hurt of all will be the humiliation of being Nationally held up for villification as a disgraced pple by a Government who has absolutely no idea what they need or how to go about it.

Doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers, blah, blah, blah all the responsibility of State Govts... Labor state govts for the majority. They have failed. The socialists have shown they have no idea on how to fix problems.

The left is vehemently rejecting these measures because accepting them means confirmation of the failure of their ideology. It's sad that they put children at a distant second place.

IQSRLOW wrote on Jun 30^th, 2007 at 11:48pm:

Doctors, nurses, teachers, social workers, blah, blah, blah all the responsibility of State Govts... Labor state govts for the majority. They have failed. The socialists have shown they have no idea on how to fix problems. The left is vehemently rejecting these measures because accepting them means confirmation of the failure of their ideology. It's sad that they put children at a distant second place.

The left is vehemently rejecting these measures because accepting them means confirmation of the failure of their ideology. It's sad that they put children at a distant second place

empty.

IQ, it does not make sense to blame the states for making medical education undesirably expensive when it is the federal government who has controlled increases in HECS.  The federal government has members whom have quite frequently expressed negative sentiment about the unemployed, and the cultural attitude the government encourages to the unemployed by its policies is one of disdain and disapproval, similarly with aboriginal people. As for teachers, the federal government is trying to place more and more restrictions on what can be taught and must be taught and how, and how both at tertiary and secondary level, and is providing more and more of its funding to private schools, so is clearly making the work environment less desirable.  When it is all about performance and not at all about conditions to create it then workers do not choose that profession or to stay in it.  That is what the Liberals fail to understand with their education, training, labour and industrial policies.

correct connie..

and simply making predictable noises about the failure of the left, a bit of meat in your comments IQ  would be a nice change.

The Liberals have been undermining the success of education in Australia since its inception or re election, as it has with every Human Resource area for the last 10 yrs.

This is why there is a national shortage of Nurses, Doctors, Teachers and Social Workers.

Howard has little concern for the Social Welfare of this country as a whole., including the Ind pple. It is showing up now just how under resourced we are when it comes to a' crisis'.

Simply saying its a lefty mentality is too simplistic and predictable.

It has been demonstrated that the fact that Howard chose to over ride state jurisdiction in the Nthn Territory would tell us all that it IS a Federal responsibility when we cut to the chase.

a bit of meat in your comments IQ  would be a nice change.

Now that's rich coming from the likes of you  ;D

The Liberals have been undermining the success of education in Australia since its inception or re election, as it has with every Human Resource area for the last 10 yrs.

This is why there is a national shortage of Nurses, Doctors, Teachers and Social Workers.

Howard has little concern for the Social Welfare of this country as a whole., including the Ind pple. It is showing up now just how under resourced we are when it comes to a' crisis'.

Yep...no meat there. Empty rhetoric and finger pointing away from those who are ultimately responsible

It has been demonstrated that the fact that Howard chose to over ride state jurisdiction in the Nthn Territory would tell us all that it IS a Federal responsibility when we cut to the chase.

What it demonstrates is the failure of the State Labor parties to adequately address the situation

Yep...no meat there. Empty rhetoric and finger pointing away from those who are ultimately responsible

well this is what you know best IQ..empty rhetoric..for sure..Ive got to give you that.

Plenty of meat in my posts for those who have basic grasp of english and a modicum of  political insight.

Sorry thats not you..


You are famous for yo yoing issues back and forth with your " state and federal responsibilty" even when its clear you dont understand it..Put it on the states.- blame the leftists etc . Anything as a delaying tactic without actually coming up with solutions. Typical Liberal idiots.

This kind of nonsense is why Ind pple etc are suffering..no one wants to pick up the ball and run with it and actually do anything. Playing politics with human lives and suffering.

Just how retarded are you???? I've seen 3 year olds with a better grasp of English than you and I guarantee that a stuffed chimpanzee is more politically astute than you could ever be.

You are famous for yo yoing issues back and forth with your " state and federal responsibilty" even when its clear you dont understand it..

Again, another retarded comment because you fail to understand the difference between state and federal responsibilities

This kind of nonsense is why Ind pple etc are suffering..no one wants to pick up the ball and run with it and actually do anything. Playing politics with human lives and suffering.

Thank god the federal liberal party are picking up the ball dropped by the state labor govts. The only ones complaining are the whining leftist dolts on web forums.

It is the responsibility of the Federal Government to supply teachers, doctors etc. not the State Government.  Yes the States have to pay for them when they are employed - but because of the drastic shortage of skilled people - thanks to the Commonwealth's shortfall in funds to Universities over the past decade, we haven't got the people.  There have been real cuts to aboriginal services - nearly $500 million the first year he was in government - and in the past year it has been cut again by $60 million - the amount he has used to barter with our indigenous people to hand over their land.

The Federal Government has also cut the funds to the States for all services drastically and in it's place has given them the GST and in NSW a shortfall of more than $3 billion.  This means that the Federal Govt has had huge surpluses from funds normally going to the states, but now saved because of the GST.  What are they doing with all this extra cash - giving huge tax benefits to the rich,  supporting the US in an illegal war, investing billions and billions in future defence capabilities and last but not least - more than $50 billion of our money invested into a politicians "super slush fund" where the management and control has been given to an American company based in India and Singapore.

All governments are responsible for the crisis in indigenous health - but remember we have had a Federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs for the past 11 years.  If this means the Commonwealth isn't responsible - what have we been paying these Federal Ministers for?  

They have also had a duty of care and have had many opportunities to over-ride the states - but have chosen to do so right now as an election is looming.

They have also had a duty of care and have had many opportunities to over-ride the states - but have chosen to do so right now as an election is looming.


Chosen to do so because NOW is the time to do something...but in any case, what a wonderful master stroke performed by a consummate politician. The left could only dream of having the same political savvy  

[quote][what a wonderful master stroke performed by a consummate politician. The left could only dream of having the same political savvy /quote]

Did it ever occur to you that those who you classify as "left" are actually humanitarians and their aim in life is to provide a decent, sustainable life for the country's inhabitants.  Howard may be clever with his words and as cunning as a fox - but he lacks the main ingredient which makes him a human being - that is compassion.

Unless you believe that his crocodile tears are genuine?

their aim in life is to provide a decent, sustainable life for the country's inhabitants...but have failed miserably

[quote author=mantra link=1182916354/30#35 date=1183263891][quote][what a wonderful master stroke performed by a consummate politician. The left could only dream of having the same political savvy /quote]

Did it ever occur to you that those who you classify as "left" are actually humanitarians and their aim in life is to provide a decent, sustainable life for the country's inhabitants.  Howard may be clever with his words and as cunning as a fox - but he lacks the main ingredient which makes him a human being - that is compassion.

Unless you believe that his crocodile tears are genuine?[/

Thats right and its why I have never had any problems with being accused of being a leftist..these pple say it like its an insult..go figure..

'IQ'- only a month ago you hated Howard' guts and now, because you are trying to keep in with guys and what you perceive to be the popular general consensus..you all of a sudden see Howard as a 'consumate poltician'? your funny you really are.. You dont even have the courage of your own convictions.

talk about selling yourself out. ::) ::) ::) ::)

you are seriously dumb.!!!!

IQ'- only a month ago you hated Howard' guts

That must have been one of the other voices in your head. Where have I said that?

IQSRLOW wrote on Jul 1^st, 2007 at 2:43pm:

IQ'- only a month ago you hated Howard' guts That must have been one of the other voices in your head. Where have I said that?

Only in Cracker 1 million times..but as your new 'disguised persona' we are now a Lib are we?

LOL

;D ;D ;D

You are one (perhaps more than one?) seriously disturbed person

Anyone else getting deja vu?

It's more like a sixth sense than deja vu

http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/6thsense.jpg

I reckon we should do more to include them in to our society.
Get them out of the gutters, the centrelink lines and into jobs and houses.

Off the grog and into a suit- or off the petrol and back into the Bush.

Whatyareckon?

wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2007 at 11:22pm:

I reckon we should do more to include them in to our society. Get them out of the gutters, the centrelink lines and into jobs and houses. Off the grog and into a suit- or off the petrol and back into the Bush. Whatyareckon?

I agree 100%.

Personally I am still of two minds about the whole idea of segregation, whilst I agree in principle with native title I'm not so sure I agree with political autonomy, it has not proven very successful. I may be wrong I guess it comes down to a case by case scenario. In either case, segregation and self government for Aborigines is not going to lead us anywhere good, and I fail to see the point of special treatment in terms of welfare and such that Aborigines receive. I am by no means discriminatory whatsoever, I actually believe that special treatment in welfare and education is discriminatory in principle.  

I disagree with the governments condescending approach of late (wash your kids before we give you welfare etc.), but I can see where they are coming from in principle, however the Howard government has proven that while they often have the principles somewhat right, they never seem to be able to apply well them in practice, so you cant expect much better from them. A lot of the problem that Aborigines have is a feeling of social isolation, which is what I have been trying to get across about the whole Muslim scenario: Too many Australians are still far too harsh, racist, whatever you want to call it, for Aborigines to feel as though they have a place in our society. This will need to break down before we can move forward.

You have to try to put yourself in their shoes I guess? Imagine that Indonesia invaded today and 200 years in the future we are all but wiped out, and they then want us to integrate into an Islamic society (hypothetical scenario - trying to illustrate a point) and we want to live in small rural communities with autonomous governance... How would you feel about it, given you are some 4 generations along since the invasion...? Now this is a rather extreme scenario I'm painting but I'm trying to get an idea across: whilst our society is very much more agreeable than the one I used in my example, the cultural divide is still relevant.

So I agree with you AN, you are absolutely right. Now how do we do it?

Personally I think the way we have been going, more or less adopting and accepting aspects of Aboriginal culture as part of our modern Australian culture, is a good approach, it demonstrates respect and acceptance and has the possibility for mutual cultural respect. I used to live out bush across the road from a rather shady Aboriginal family, nice people, wouldn't necessarily trust them as far as you can throw them... Now this guy started painting, and his paintings started to sell, he made some good money in the end, I have never seen a transformation in attitude like it. He had gone from a more or less dodgey brothers way of life, to a positive capitalistic approach, simply because he felt something he had to offer from his culture was being accepted by our culture and he could make money from it. The Aboriginal art example is not the best one of course because it has been milked and over used but it is an example of what I am talking about.

And as always... education is the key!

yes, education is the key.

Often social welfare encourages an undesirable behaviour .

So much better for Aborigines to be contributing members of society. For everyone.
They have MANY role models to look up to.

zoso wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 10:37am:

Personally I think the way we have been going, more or less adopting and accepting aspects of Aboriginal culture as part of our modern Australian culture, is a good approach, it demonstrates respect and acceptance and has the possibility for mutual cultural respect.

that's easier said that done, it's quite difficult to show Aboriginals that we accept and respect their culture. The reason being that we essentially destroyed most of it and are refusing to apologise for it.

i think an apology for the mistreatment will go a long way.

Well said A us Nat   :)

Skeptik..


I agree entirely with that.

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I agree 100%.

First time ive heard that from you mate!!! im so happy ;D :'(



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I fail to see the point of special treatment in terms of welfare and such that Aborigines receive. I am by no means discriminatory whatsoever, I actually believe that special treatment in welfare and education is discriminatory in principle.

I agree. its discriminatory against us, arent we all supposedly equal???
It needs to be compulsory for ALL aboriginal children to attend school up to year 10.
And if they are educated, there will be no more need for this special treatment.





Quote:

You have to try to put yourself in their shoes I guess? Imagine that Indonesia invaded today and 200 years in the future we are all but wiped out, and they then want us to integrate into an Islamic society (hypothetical scenario - trying to illustrate a point) and we want to live in small rural communities with autonomous governance... How would you feel about it, given you are some 4 generations along since the invasion...? Now this is a rather extreme scenario I'm painting but I'm trying to get an idea across: whilst our society is very much more agreeable than the one I used in my example, the cultural divide is still relevant.

I see your point there, but the way they are living now is NOTHING like how they were living 200 years ago. I believe they should all attend school, and at the conclusion be given two choices-

1. join regular society either going on to further education or a job.

2. Go back to the bush and live off the land- No money, no housing, no cars- just as they did before.


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So I agree with you AN, you are absolutely right. Now how do we do it?

Its something that would take time, the population would have to be consulted. Eg; Farmers/land owners especially, the bush abo's will need to cross their lands.


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Personally I think the way we have been going, more or less adopting and accepting aspects of Aboriginal culture as part of our modern Australian culture, is a good approach, it demonstrates respect and acceptance and has the possibility for mutual cultural respect. I used to live out bush across the road from a rather shady Aboriginal family, nice people, wouldn't necessarily trust them as far as you can throw them... Now this guy started painting, and his paintings started to sell, he made some good money in the end, I have never seen a transformation in attitude like it. He had gone from a more or less dodgey brothers way of life, to a positive capitalistic approach, simply because he felt something he had to offer from his culture was being accepted by our culture and he could make money from it. The Aboriginal art example is not the best one of course because it has been milked and over used but it is an example of what I am talking about.

Their painting is a great source of income, I like Albert Namatjira's paintings better though. ;) What if they went into business teaching how to live/survive in the bush?



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And as always... education is the key!

Dam'n straight!

Aus nat Im so proud of you. :)

Ill post again later as I do have something to say on this.

wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 2:52pm:

First time ive heard that from you mate!!! im so happy ;D :'(

;D

See I don't just argue for the sake of it! I think I did agree with you on one or two other things...



wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 2:52pm:

I agree. its discriminatory against us, arent we all supposedly equal??? It needs to be compulsory for ALL aboriginal children to attend school up to year 10. And if they are educated, there will be no more need for this special treatment.

It is also discriminatory against them in more complex ways. For one it perpetuates the feeling that they are inferior and deserve 'special' treatment. For another, by making welfare more available and easier it perpetuates welfare dependency, another disadvantage. Also various direct scholarship schemes and such, like welfare, do not encourage people to get out and take responsibility for themselves.


wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 2:52pm:

I see your point there, but the way they are living now is NOTHING like how they were living 200 years ago. I believe they should all attend school, and at the conclusion be given two choices- 1. join regular society either going on to further education or a job. 2. Go back to the bush and live off the land- No money, no housing, no cars- just as they did before.

I agree my analogy was a bit extreme, but you did see my point... there is a certain amount of understanding that is lacking amongst the community...

You do have a point of course, it is true that they are living in our modern western society.


wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 2:52pm:

Its something that would take time, the population would have to be consulted. Eg; Farmers/land owners especially, the bush abo's will need to cross their lands.

Yeah that is an issue that causes a lot of animosity - racism against Aborigines is so much worse in the bush I can tell you that! Whilst respect for their culture is important as is native title I believe, I think it is time that some of the freedoms to hunt anywhere etc should start winding back. If only for environmental sustainability, but equality is important too, again going on my theme that giving them special treatment is actually a social disadvantage as you learn to expect handouts and exceptions.



wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2007 at 2:52pm:

Their painting is a great source of income, I like Albert Namatjira's paintings better though. ;) What if they went into business teaching how to live/survive in the bush?

Many do already, and it is a good source of income as it also teaches us whiteys about their culture and encourages  the mutual respect that is really lacking.

You see there AN! We agree, I'm not such an evil liberal basterd after all! :)

Maybe your not such an evil anti-liberal... who knows...

Now AN, since we have set aside our differences for a few moments, I just want to say that more or less everything you have said here about aboriginal culture and our governments response to it, and what we should do about the problems, this is more or less my view when it comes to Muslims. I know the argument - they are different, but here we have set aside any preconceptions that Aborigines are 'lazy, acoholic, insular, violent basterds' and forgotten about them to focus on the things that need to be done to integrate them into our society. Cast away the same preconceptions about Muslims and you can begin to approach the problem in a way that might get something done. Muslims are violent, so are aborigines (spear in the leg for touching my girlfriend?), Muslims are insular, so are Aborigines, and all minority cultures be they Muslim, Aborigine, musician or femo-nazi.

This is my whole argument when it comes to the Muslims stuff, good bad or other is all irrelevant when it comes to talking about the solutions!

Now I'm sorry for bringing that up but I couldn't help it :)

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It is also discriminatory against them in more complex ways. For one it perpetuates the feeling that they are inferior and deserve 'special' treatment. For another, by making welfare more available and easier it perpetuates welfare dependency, another disadvantage. Also various direct scholarship schemes and such, like welfare, do not encourage people to get out and take responsibility for themselves.

An excellent statement.



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You do have a point of course, it is true that they are living in our modern western society.

And at the moment most are in between. that cant be possible!- that is, you cant have your cake and eat it too.


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Yeah that is an issue that causes a lot of animosity - racism against Aborigines is so much worse in the bush I can tell you that!

Thats because at the moment they are drunk hooligans and vandals. Once that is changed the rural folk will come to accept them more.


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Whilst respect for their culture is important as is native title I believe, I think it is time that some of the freedoms to hunt anywhere etc should start winding back.

Compromise is an intergral part of successful society.


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giving them special treatment is actually a social disadvantage as you learn to expect handouts and exceptions.

Just like a mummys boy


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Many do already, and it is a good source of income as it also teaches us whiteys about their culture and encourages  the mutual respect that is really lacking.

True, it is also an advantage for us whites to learn the bush.

My response to post no 9.

Oh no no no! [smiley=evil.gif]
Im never going to change my distrust of muslims! That is concrete, its as hard as granite.
Sorry zoso, it aint gonna work mate! Although i do understand your point.

Lets stick to the Aboriginal subject here.

Aus nat says...
"
Thats because at the moment they are drunk hooligans and vandals. Once that is changed the rural folk will come to accept them more.

-----------------------------

and yes SOME  are..the percenatge of Ind pple that drink is not a  lot more than whites but its because they have a 'your life on the lawn' style of drinking and living its very visible..whereas most whites do this exact same thing behind closed doors., out of public and media veiw.

The general population response to the values of Ind. pple come from media misinformation. The media loves nothing more than a good "small town racial and drunken violence story" to beam into our loungerooms to get the groundswell of public  opinion pointing theyre disgusted and self rightoeus noses in the air and sniffing how disgusting it is public money is being wasted on these drunken bums.

The solutions to self determination for Ind, PPle as always, comes thru education..It is imperative we educate Ind pple to take up all manner of professional positions in theyre own commnuities. The most Important being doctors and teachers . The health problems amongnst black pple is disgraceful and adults are dying 20 -30 yrs younger on average due to lack of essentialhealth care that can cater to the needs of Ind pple. Black Australians have the worst health status in the world, even worse then third world countries. This is scripted into University records and I took this as a health subject last year..its fact. The road to eventual indepenedence is eduaction and it is well proven that children going to community schoos run by Ind teacers have an extremely high attendence rate, they love school.Kids going to   mainstream schools  fail because of intolerance and lack of understanding. Rascism from other students and a lot of racism from teachers themselves who have no training in these areas whatso ever. Its a big ask to send and expect success for Ind kids in a regular schools.


We need to get rid of 'grog' in all communities and ensure Governments legislate this into law. Areas of sexual abuse and rape for children and women all stem from the abuse of 'grog' by black men. Get this into law and EQUIP communities with tools they need to harness this information intyo  action..so they may be procative in keeping theyre communities alcohol free and safe.

The damage done to communities thru abuse of substances as well as grog is a massive problem and the one thing that prevents them from succeeding.

Legislation and active co-ordination to educate the educators to plan and execute is what is needed to start them on th road to success.... :-?

Education is always the way!!


I agree with your quote about acceptance btw.

Removing grog is not the answer.

Removing grog is not the answer. "
-----------------------------------------------

but Aus Nat says..

"Thats because at the moment they are drunk hooligans and vandals. Once that is changed the rural folk will come to accept them more"
----------------------------

that statement about "removing grog is not the annswer" is at odds with this statement from you in your opening post.-



I dont know..lets leave the grog then? :-? :-?

I fail to see the point of special treatment in terms of welfare and such that Aborigines receive.

I would be happy to see it go, but only after we make a reasonable effort to pay back stolen wages.

Go back to the bush and live off the land- No money, no housing, no cars- just as they did before.

Not possible - the waters are overfished, the rivers drained, and most of the good land in private hands.

Many years ago we took all the children off certain missions, brought them to white mans world, clothed them, taught them to live like a white man. The stolen children I think they were called. Theoretically it was a brilliant idea. It took them away from the most destroying thing being their parents. When you look at the aboriginal children that live in outback Australia they carry on like their alcoholic parents who sit around waiting to be a victim of rascism. The thing is white man has moved on. he is now rascist about other cultures which are slowly stripping him of his control of this country. Aboriginal people are accepted everywhere now as a run of the mill thing.

Education is important but my belief is that we are many many generations away from solving the problems. I don't consider myself a rascist but because my grandfather was one of those stolen children and raised by the salvation army I know how beneficial it was for him and his family. In the 50's through to the 60's he owned 7 blocks of land, had his own nursery and achieved a hell of a lot at a time when rascism against the aboriginals was rife.

Aboriginal people die young due to smokes and alcohol. my Grandfather lived till he was 86 and never smoked or drunk alcohol. He was a major in the Salvation Army and lived a full christian life.

auzgurl says..
I dont know..lets leave the grog then?  "

--------------------------------

As if..how can you say AN alcohol is NOT a problem :-/

wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 4:53pm:

As if..how can you say AN alcohol is NOT a problem :-/

Of course it is, but prohibition is not an answer, especially if you are talking about prohibition for one group within society and not for the rest, you come back to the same point about having special welfare considerations. Deliberately creating two sets of rules within society that deliberately draw a distinction between two groups of people is what needs to stop. I believe alcohol is what people turn to when everything else in their life is messed up, but everyone needs the freedom to make that choice and to make the better choice. Restrictions wont solve the problem, they will only control a symptom of that problem.

As if you would know zoso..

You are a single mother with 2 kids, who lives in Sydney and is posing as a bloke on this forum. get a life.!!!!




You know nothing about Ind. pple and what they need.

Zoso..


You seem to be an expert at everything...now its Ind pple. yet youve never been near a community in your life nor I would venture to add even seen an Indigenous problem up close let alone offering 'solutions' to the "grog ' problem. TV  would be the closest you ever got to an Indigenous person.


There is no such thing as considerations for the rights of these pple to drink ,ith the same civil liberties in place when the consumption of alcohol is clearly respopnsible for so much human carnage in theyre communties. We are not dealing with simple issues of equal rights for all when it comes to the abuse problem,. its far more serious than that and one day it will come to pass that alcohol will be banned from Indigenous pple, wether they implement that restriction themselves, and they most likely will ,r it it legislated in law.

The sooner the better.

Enviro seems to have a have some useful experience in this area., and he is so right.Freediver is also right..Australia is not a  place the Aborigine can go back to his pre-invasion ways by hunting and living his traditonal ways. his envronment has changed radically.
And further to freediver is also right. The money the black man receives now is just a partial repaymnt ofhis stolen wages for so long working and living as slaves.

Alcohol IS the biggest hurdle they have to face and Aus.nat..if you believe that in spite of having said it in your post..then what rock have you been living under.?

I mean to say..'banned from Indigenous pple in communities '...

wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 8:32pm:

Zoso.. You seem to be an expert at everything...now its Ind pple. yet youve never been near a community in your life nor I would venture to add even seen an Indigenous problem up close let alone offering 'solutions' to the "grog ' problem. TV  would be the closest you ever got to an Indigenous person.

Ouch... bit personal there? I'm overly opinionated, arrogant and articulate... fcukin deal with it  ;D

Yet you are completely full of it when it comes to my 'experience' with indigenous people, but hey why should I knock you down when you're clearly up on the dizzying heights of moral high ground here? I have already given one personal experience I've had with just one aboriginal family, and I have plenty more.

The thing is, prohibition doesn't solve a thing, as I said it never has and it never will. Does prohibition of drugs stop people from taking drugs? Will prohibition of alcohol stop people from drinking if they really want it? no it wont, especially if its easily available in the greater society. Prohibition just drives it underground, which only makes it harder to police. Dry communities may work out in the remote bush but how do you take alcohol away from communities in say Redfern? Tell me I'd love to know the details?


wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 8:32pm:

There is no such thing as considerations for the rights of these pple to drink ,ith the same civil liberties in place when the consumption of alcohol is clearly respopnsible for so much human carnage in theyre communties. We are not dealing with simple issues of equal rights for all when it comes to the abuse problem,. its far more serious than that and one day it will come to pass that alcohol will be banned from Indigenous pple, wether they implement that restriction themselves, and they most likely will ,r it it legislated in law.

Funny how in pretty much the rest of our society, there is ample alcohol and much fewer problems...? Funny how when white people have problems due to alcohol we don't go rushing about saying it needs to be banned altogether? I say its a symptom of a greater problem, you say it is the greater problem, we disagree big whoop. I am not now, nor will I likely ever be in a position to make anything of my opinions, but just try to stop me voicing them in an open forum...


wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 8:32pm:

Alcohol IS the biggest hurdle they have to face and Aus.nat..if you believe that in spite of having said it in your post..then what rock have you been living under.?

Of course it is, but prohibition has never been successful ever in history at stopping the abuse of substances. Why on earth would it suddenly start working now? This IS about personal freedoms, you cannot stop a human from dropping whatever substance they want into their system, I don't care if all the experts in this country think otherwise (and I doubt they do) I will never budge on my staunch opposition to prohibition. Call me arrogant, call me ignorant, call me a fool I do not care.

wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 7:05pm:

As if you would know zoso.. You are a single mother with 2 kids, who lives in Sydney and is posing as a bloke on this forum. get a life.!!!!

;D ;D ;D ;D

Oh thats just gold...

Here check out my beautiful Sydney north shore mcmansion and my two kids: http://gallery.oldholden.com/Blue-Thunder/

Kids can be such a pain sometimes...


wrote on Mar 24^th, 2007 at 7:05pm:

You know nothing about Ind. pple and what they need.

Perhaps you are right? Just try and stop me voicing my opinions!  ;D ;D

I'm not an aboriginal but I think they should go back to the outback give them some of their land and resources of course. If assumilation hasn't worked what other choice is there? And no more work camps and to keep the 'grog' (beer)out of their hands with some help. Maybe some cultural freedoms like native fijis and new zealanders.

So i guess every one here would rather b.i.t.c.h about the problem rather than find a solution.

ocean_blue. wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 11:21am:

well zoso..you just confirmed what I knew about you all along you are MEL the Troll from Cracker and your very unconvincing attempts to support your veiw reinforces my assertions about you lack of any knowledge on this topic.

No I am zoso on cracker. Did you see my gallery on oldholden? piccys of me in there if you are interested.

I believe flaming and trolling mean you are posting nonsensical antagonistic material intended to simply cause pointless personal argument... and this appears to be what you are doing here... Tell me how you can make Indigenous people stop drinking while alcohol is freely available to the rest of society and we will be getting somewhere. Otherwise right now YOU are the troll who is massively off topic.


ocean_blue. wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 11:21am:

You are clueless because OH GREAT SAGE..you know nothing about this problem. You are not 'opinionated'..you are OBNOXIOUS!!!!!

I know *some* about this problem, but my stance comes from my much more in depth understanding of human nature in general. I don't like to talk about this but I do actually have a depressingly extensive experience with people and substance abuse. Prohibition doesn't work, history shows this, my personal experience confirms it. Care to elaborate on how this particular scenario might be different?


ocean_blue. wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 11:21am:

You came in here originally telling all you are a mother of 2 goint to UNI (youve since removed the post I notice)..and now you are a guy who is an engineer and puts up 'home brew'.............be consistent at least and a little less fraudulant!!!!

When? Deleted what? I have been a member of this board for about two weeks? Fraudulant? You are seriously delusional.


ocean_blue. wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 11:21am:

You have a v*gina..not dangly bits!!!!!

You want to put money on that?

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 11:23am:

So i guess every one here would rather b.i.t.c.h about the problem rather than find a solution.

Seems like it...

Oh and sorry about the muslim bit... it was off topic and out of line... just couldn't help myself ;)

Quote:

Seems like it... Oh and sorry about the muslim bit... it was off topic and out of line... just couldn't help myself ;)

No probs. Notice Auzgurl left! Wonder why?

Zoso

prohibition doesn't work? Well, Methylated Spirits was taken off the shelves in many North Queensland shops to stop aboriginals from killing themselves with it. This is Prohibition and it worked. Nobody ran off and started a black market in it.

Prohibition of alcohol will work if only employed to dark skin people because they only represent 2% of this country. The only problem is that they would scream loss of equal rights. The funny thing is that their elders would never support this type of move because they would lose their power as the aboriginal becomes more white in thinking.

The aboriginal, chinese, arab, indian etc cultures is what makes up Australia's culture. Why do all these nationalities have their own leaders within a country that has a leader? I know people will say so it allows their way of life to be heard but, are we not all australians in this country and are we not all heard anyway individually?

The white man, especially the single white man also has felt the brunt of rascism, biaism and prejudices.

enviro wrote on Mar 26^th, 2007 at 10:45pm:

Zoso prohibition doesn't work? Well, Methylated Spirits was taken off the shelves in many North Queensland shops to stop aboriginals from killing themselves with it. This is Prohibition and it worked. Nobody ran off and started a black market in it.

Again, that's a remote community, how do you make those rules work in urban areas?

Quote:

Prohibition of alcohol will work if only employed to dark skin people because they only represent 2% of this country. The only problem is that they would scream loss of equal rights. The funny thing is that their elders would never support this type of move because they would lose their power as the aboriginal becomes more white in thinking.

Wouldnt that be a good thing?
Its a means to obtain a successful end.


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chinese, arab, indian etc cultures is what makes up Australia's culture.

What a load of crap!!!!

Zoso ,


I was only speaking of communities when I mentioned prohibiton..and only because if it isnt implemented at some poin there will be no Indigenous race to rescue. These pple have an enzyme missing in theyre blood that sees them unable to metabolise it,alcohol, properly and its thye reason they are so addicted to it.As alcohol is so relatively new to this very old culture, they are not born with the enzyme as the white man is..

Dont take my word for it, it is scientific fact.I will get an link later for you.


"Quote:
Prohibition of alcohol will work if only employed to dark skin people because they only represent 2% of this country. The only problem is that they would scream loss of equal rights. The funny thing is that their elders would never support this type of move because they would lose their power as the aboriginal becomes more white in thinking. "

and Aus Nats reply

"Wouldnt that be a good thing?
Its a means to obtain a successful end. "

Of course it would Aus Nat..and thank god for some common sense..
Noone wants to withdraw equal rights from any group..but in this case we have to ask ourselves, it is either the right of the drunk to drink and destroy his family unit an community at large, or the right of the children and women not to be beaten and raped because we dont want to deprive the black man of his 'equal right' to drink do we?
;)

Whos rights  are more important? The right for Ind children to be safe and loved - or starved, abused, physically and sexually abused? because this is the reality for Ind kids in most Ind communities..

yes, I know get off my soapbox,...

wrote on Mar 27^th, 2007 at 1:56am:

yes, I know get off my soapbox,...

Stay on it- you are entitled to do so. 8-)

wrote on Mar 27^th, 2007 at 1:56am:

yes, I know get off my soapbox,...

By all means, stay up there :)

I am well aware of the biological difficulties. I am just trying to draw attention to the logistical difficulties. I also think that personal freedom is a hugely significant factor, despite your playing it down, cultural separation was a fundamental corner stone of apartheid for example.

wrote on Mar 25^th, 2007 at 10:54am:

I'm not an aboriginal but I think they should go back to the outback give them some of their land and resources of course. If assumilation hasn't worked what other choice is there? And no more work camps and to keep the 'grog' (beer)out of their hands with some help. Maybe some cultural freedoms like native fijis and new zealanders.

Aboriginals come from all over Australia not just the outback. Should we give them all the coastal land instead? Indians in the US were treated the same way. Aboriginals don't believe in land ownership so it doesn't matter what we do at the end of the day because they are the one's that need to change now.

I was in Bourke today and a bloke told me that they are no longer repairing their homes for them because they cannot look after them. A lot are going to Dubbo because they'll still fix their homes there and crime is easier because they have more people to try and sell their stolen goods to.
:)

I don't know what percentage of the aboriginal population are bad but I do know that not many of them will work. I don't think it is part of their culture. Who knows?

enviro
Quote:

chinese, arab, indian etc cultures is what makes up Australia's culture.

Quote:

What a load of crap!!!!

Example: Bathurst was built predominately from chinese, we eat many of the above countries foods etc.

The above races have influenced our culture along with scottish, irish, americans etc. over the years whether you like it or not.

Maybe you should have a DNA test Aus Nat. ;)

Quote:

Example: Bathurst was built predominately from chinese, we eat many of the above countries foods etc.

I accept that the chinese did settle and help build Australia in its early years, BUT the arabs and indians DID NOT. they are a recent addition (plague) to our country.
And on food, we could have discovered and imported their foods if we wanted to.


Quote:

The above races have influenced our culture along with scottish, irish, americans etc. over the years whether you like it or not.

Yeah Scots, Brits, Irish, Germans, French, Even Russians-
Not Arabs, Not Indians, Not Nigers, Not Spanish, Not Eskimo's.



Quote:

Maybe you should have a DNA test Aus Nat. ;)

Why on earth would i want to do that? I dont doubt who i am.

Also mr genius, lets stick to the subject.

You cannot solve 'the aborigine problem' without doing something specific about aborigines. If different rules for different people achieves that then I am in favour, provided the majority of both the broader community and those more directly affected are also in favour.

The thing is, prohibition doesn't solve a thing, as I said it never has and it never will. Does prohibition of drugs stop people from taking drugs?

That doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means you are setting the bar too high. If complete leimination of the problem is your only acceptable solution you might as well give up now.

Dry communities may work out in the remote bush but how do you take alcohol away from communities in say Redfern?

I doubt anyone intends to introduce alcohol prohibition to urban areas.

This IS about personal freedoms, you cannot stop a human from dropping whatever substance they want into their system

Zoso are you in favour of legalisation of all drugs?

Quote:

You cannot solve 'the aborigine problem' without doing something specific about aborigines. If different rules for different people achieves that then I am in favour, provided the majority of both the broader community and those more directly affected are also in favour.

In fact, i think it should be extended. Prohibition not only for abo's, but for drunks, islanders, maori's,-
Basically people who have a problem with alcohol and those who are not genetically adjusted to it.

Would they be forced to wear clothing with an identifying mark so that people know not to give them alcohol?

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 7:11am:

I doubt anyone intends to introduce alcohol prohibition to urban areas.

And the problem exists in urban areas the same as it does in the bush. So not only are you creating two different sets of rules for groups based on skin colour, you are dividing the skin colour group into more subsets.


freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 7:11am:

Zoso are you in favour of legalisation of all drugs?

More or less, but that is a complex issue and I hope I don't get blasted out of the water here because people think I haven't thought it through.

Without getting into a heated debate about the technical ins and outs of prohibition, I will make one statement: I believe strongly that drug abuse is a medical problem, not a criminal problem. Crimes committed by drug abusers in order to further their habits are indeed criminal issue, but thousands of drug addicts are out there who do not commit any crime, I have known too many of them. And no you can be an addict without using illicits or tobacco or alcohol, the UN now recognises prescription drug abuse to be as prolific as illicit drug abuse in the west. Alcohol abuse is exactly the same, medical problem, not criminal.

freediver wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 11:44am:

Would they be forced to wear clothing with an identifying mark so that people know not to give them alcohol?

Are you really telling me that you cannot recognise an aboriginal when you see one? How long have you lived in this country for freediver? Maybe you should get out more.

Zoso
Quote:

Without getting into a heated debate about the technical ins and outs of prohibition, I will make one statement: I believe strongly that drug abuse is a medical problem, not a criminal problem.

It is not a medical problem or criminal problem it starts out as a social problem ;)

enviro wrote on Mar 30^th, 2007 at 3:23pm:

It is not a medical problem or criminal problem it starts out as a social problem ;)

Well I agree with that completely.

Revising my comment: drug abuse: social problem, drug addiction: medical problem. Neither have been successfully controlled through prohibition and policing.

Most will think I'm mad for saying this, but I agree with the greens drug policy: control and regulate the supply, police the black market.

Auis nat says ..

'In fact, i think it should be extended. Prohibition not only for abo's, but for drunks, islanders, maori's,-
Basically people who have a problem with alcohol and those who are not genetically adjusted to it. '


This statement has merit definitely.

They would be identified by theyre families or communities who had come to the end of theyre rope with their destructive behaviour!
::)

Judge says alcohol-related violence a 'national embarrassment'
A Northern Territory judge has called the level of alcohol-fuelled violence in central Australia a national embarrassment.

Ricky Nelson, 24, was today sentenced to three years' in jail, with 18 months non-parole, for using a metre-long iron bar to attack his wife in Alice Springs.

In handing down the sentence, Justice Trevor Riley, noted that it was just another example of the alcohol-fuelled violence in central Australia.

He told the court that all of the eight people who faced a charge of aggravated assault in the Supreme Court in Alice Springs last month were Aboriginal men affected by alcohol, and most of the victims were Aboriginal women.

He said as well as the cost to the victim, the community bears significant costs.

He said it is not just a problem for the central Australian Aboriginal community, but a tragedy the whole country should be embarrassed about.

-------------

this is common in Indgenous communities are out here it is nothing to see women in the street with cut faces black and blue and they even do this in front of tourists.. they are so drunk they dont know wherer they are most of the time. The Police ignore it.

Are you really telling me that you cannot recognise an aboriginal when you see one? How long have you lived in this country for freediver? Maybe you should get out more.

The statement I was responding to referred to all alcoholics, including white ones.

There is no such thing as an "Aboriginal Australian". They are either Aboriginals or Indigenous. And even then, there appears to be new discovered being unearth regarding a pre-race of people in Australia out-dating Aboriginal fossils by a few thousand years. Even so...

Aboriginals called this land what exactly before the English arrived here and called it Australia? What was their flag and national language when we arrived here? Furthermore could you point to the document that gave them ownership of these lands - given they admit to being simply the care takers?

Australia is a term given to a place that Europeans built for their identity, heritage and freedoms. Aboriginals didn't even know where they were.

Baron von Hund says:


Quote:

What was their flag and national language when we arrived here? Furthermore could you point to the document that gave them ownership of these lands - given they admit to being simply the care takers?

Possession is nine tenths of the law which means one who has physical control of his property is clearly at an advantage should his rightful ownership of the property ever be subject to challenge.  This is a principle from old English Common Law.

We are the interlopers not the indigenous people.

So Baron, a piece of paper is what determines ownership?

Mantra, by the same logic. we gained ownership by simply taking it from them.

There is no such thing as an "Aboriginal Australian"


---------------

of course there is Von Hund..these ppl are Aboriginal and then Australian, so by definition!

Indigenous describes the original inhabitants of any land. the Negros/Africans are Indigenous to Africa..but are still Indigenous Africans..I dont   know where you where going with that one.

What has a flag got to do with anythjing at all? Theyre languages numbers in the hundreds of dialects Hund , each tribe possessing theyre own,so for you to say they never had a language is just plain ignorance on your behalf.


Noone is saying no race pre existed because who could really know that and anthropology will certainly unearth new surprises in the future- but how can the english dismiss 60 thousand yrs of Indigenous Australian culture? can you Hund?

Can you dispute the historical archives of prodigous rock art that tells the story of the oldest living race on earth? So what gives them claim to Australia..theyre historical links to this very land that appear to get even longer all the time.

Australian Euoropeans may deny Indigenous pple the 'sorry' they wanted, but they cannot deny them the theyre own history.

From a legal perspective, what BVH says is correct. The term Aboriginal Australian is a term applied by white man (and laws), not the native inhabitants. It had no meaning prior to settlement.

Our laws have a method of allocating land to earlier inhabitants based on traditional use i.e. native title. Once this decision is made, the prior owner of the land is irrelevant.

So everyone, get over it. Live in the now.

Your post makes no sense Aushole and is incorrect for that reason!

get over it!!

Our laws have a method of allocating land to earlier inhabitants based on traditional use i.e. native title. Once this decision is made, the prior owner of the land is irrelevant.

This doesn't make any sense to me either. Maybe you need to be more specific. Did you mean the prior 'white' owner?

To Baron Von Hund

Your Avatar looks fantastic - you really do look like Pauline Hanson now...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Wake up and live in the real world your head is full of propaganda crap!

you tell him enviro--well done!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

freediver wrote on Apr 14^th, 2007 at 6:01am:

Our laws have a method of allocating land to earlier inhabitants based on traditional use i.e. native title. Once this decision is made, the prior owner of the land is irrelevant. This doesn't make any sense to me either. Maybe you need to be more specific. Did you mean the prior 'white' owner?

You and OB are thinking prior owner under white law, but if you read my prior post (in response to BVH) I am thinking wider than that.

There were laws in existence prior to white settlement, which determined who had rights to use the land. Hence the concept of 'traditional owners' i.e. the prior owner.

Under the native title process, any number of parties may lay claim to a plot of land. In many cases, there are multiple applicants, coming from different aboriginal groups. In most cases, only one aboriginal group is granted title. Which means it doesn't matter what the traditional law says, it is the group that can prove entitlement to the land under white law.

There are instances where the 'first owners' are not the party granted native title, because of an extended period of non use. It means another group moved in while they were not looking. Or the lands were won in a battle.

Therefore, once the decision is made, whoever is a prior owner of the land is irrelevant (assuming that some other law applied prior to native title).

wrote on Apr 10^th, 2007 at 8:42pm:

Your post makes no sense Aushole and is incorrect for that reason! get over it!!

If you buy a parcel of land, you hold the Land Title. The prior owner is irrelevant. It doesnt matter who owns the land in the past, it is who owns the land now that is important.

You and FD brought up the land argument (in the last dozen posts), and I was merely pointing out that current ownership is what counts (the now), and that the argument over who used what before is irrelevant once legal title is granted.

The whole point of native title was to resolve the land issue, but you have resorted to who was here first. It doesnt matter! That is the fundamental the reconciliation process. If you cannot acknowledge the past, and get over it (deal with it), you cannot move forward.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Alice-Springs-to-ban-public-drinking/2007/05/09/1178390370082.html

Alice Springs will become a dry city after the Northern Territory Licensing Commission approved a ban on public drinking of alcohol.

The ban will take effect from August 1 and outlaw alcohol consumption in all public areas, including the main thoroughfare Todd Mall, parks, camps and suburbs.

The Alice Springs Town Council applied for dry town status in October last year, a first for the territory.

Commission chairman Richard O'Sullivan said many Alice Springs residents held a deep concern and frustration about alcohol abuse and public safety.

"Every resident has a right to feel safe in his or her own community and it is apparent to the commission that many residents do not feel safe - particularly if they are in the mall or on the streets late at night," Mr O'Sullivan said in his findings.

I thought a 'dry' community was one where alcohol is completely banned. This seems like they are just following along with most other country towns (like my own) and banning public drinking, ie. in parks and walking down the street etc.

Its a good thing.

Yep - this is a non-story. Not often I agree with Zoso. Banning public drinking is getting to be mainstream. I don't agree with it though. I prefer that any actual problems that arise should be addressed - ie the people who commit offences should be arrested and locked up. Alice Springs jails may get a bit over crowded though. If I fancy a can walking along the street - why not - others use mobile phones or fart.

But I absolutely totally object to the really dry community laws as implemented in parts of QLD and NT. I say one law for all. But it seems that the laws of Australia are applied differently according to where you live. Underage sex and marriage is apparently not against the law is some parts of Australia. I find this differential application of laws surprising. Well, the fact that no one complains is surprising. One law for all seems to me to define a country. So we have lots of Australias?

If different laws works and everyone is happy about it, I'm fine with that. Local communities should be able to set their own standards.

I have been pulled up by the police walking into town with a stubbie in my hand. They made me empty it.

But the local aboriginal community laws in the NT and QLD affect what are normally Federal or State laws - not just local council laws. Laws like age of consent and marriage. Normal councils in QLD have no power to ban the possession and/or comsumption of alcohol - these things are determined on a statewide basis by the State parliament.
The Aboriginal community laws are race laws. Imagine if they applied only in white communities. What else could they be called but race laws?

Just to make it perfectly clear - how would a small white town in outback Australia react if they were told by the council that drinking is illegal - you'll go to jail if you drink?

I'm sure if a local white community really wanted to become dry or change any of those other laws they could. Those communities do it with the backing of the state or federal government. It is not racist as it applies by location and applies to all people, white and black, tourists and locals.

wrote on May 9^th, 2007 at 7:27pm:

Yep - this is a non-story. Not often I agree with Zoso. Banning public drinking is getting to be mainstream.

What have I done? you have decided I'm a lefty and thats it! I don't like Howard or the libs, get over it mate we can still agree in sh!t  ::)

Godd@mn the hippies think I'm a conservative, the conservative think I'm a hippy... well as they say in politics you you know you're doing something right when all the partisan shills are out to get you.


Quote:

I don't agree with it though. I prefer that any actual problems that arise should be addressed - ie the people who commit offences should be arrested and locked up. Alice Springs jails may get a bit over crowded though. If I fancy a can walking along the street - why not - others use mobile phones or fart.

Ahh... but isn't banning public drinking addressing the problem? Please try to think pragmatically, do we wait until something bad happens and then call the cops? Or do we try to take action before something bad happens in the first place?

Don't forget we have been throwing people in jail for drinking related problems for many a year now with no discernible improvement to society... hmm... sort of like all the other drugs... funny how that is.


Quote:

But I absolutely totally object to the really dry community laws as implemented in parts of QLD and NT. I say one law for all.

I totally agree, but on the premise of freedoms for all...

As for one law for all...

Quote:

But it seems that the laws of Australia are applied differently according to where you live. Underage sex and marriage is apparently not against the law is some parts of Australia. I find this differential application of laws surprising. Well, the fact that no one complains is surprising. One law for all seems to me to define a country. So we have lots of Australias?

It's called a federal system of government.

I suppose you're on the 'get rid of the states' bandwagon too? Just stop and think how much of our countries administration and service provision occurs on the state level, I can tell you it is the vast majority of Australian governance.

freediver - I don't really want to pursue this too far - it is really controversial. But do you really believe that the dry Aboriginal communities are dry because that is what the community members (not the state supported leaders) want? And you really believe such a policy by white community leaders would be tolerated by a white community?
QLD has what are called State Liquor Laws. All councils have to abide by them under threat of prosecution. Except that is, for Aboriginal communities. Just how race-based can a law get?

You say "It is not racist as it applies by location". So it is ok to make laws based on location even where those locations are determined by racial presence? Your ground is weak.

Delete the thread if you wish. It's a bit dodgy. I'll not complain.

Sense, I agree, it IS racial discrimination (I mean that in the not nasty discrimination way). History has shown time and time again that charity is not a valid way to teach people responsibility, and when it comes down to Aboriginal drinking, it is as much about personal responsibility as it is for any other individual. Race is irrelevant.

Sense's point about white communities is on the money, the onus is on the individual to take control of their own actions, and so it should be for all. Forcibly denying an individual drink does not teach the individual how to drink responsibly or to make the decision of abstinence when they are inevitably presented with a choice.

The law only came into being because public drinking is a problem in that area.
Irregardless of the race of the offender.
Sure, this law is probably going to pertain moreso to aborigines. I am only assuming that.

The majority of the Alice Springs population evidently feel unsafe due to excessive alcohol consumption in public, so something has been trialled.

Personally I feel a bit wary when some people have had a few too many drinks in public and are getting unruly. In a private location - pub, nightclub, home, party, that is all setup for it.
In a park where families come for BBQs, it is not the place to get plastered and rowdy.

Sorry print I wasn't talking about Alice any more, I thought freediver and sense had been debating the dry aboriginal communities?

I agree that alcohol free public zones are a good idea, they have them here and its fine, I rarely seem to find a reason to drink out in open public places to begin with...

sprint - yes Alice has problems - ok - banning public drinking is not a rally big deal - it's a pity if it needs to be done and there is some loss of freedom - the drinkers will just concentrate somewhere else.
But the dry community issue is something else entirely. If was I brought up in one of those dry communities I'd be livid about the dry laws. I'd say "so everyone else in Australia can have a drink but not me!". I'd say - "but I'm Australian - its allowed to drink in Australia - the Federal and State laws allow it". The answer I would quickly discover is that I'm not allowed to drink because I'm Aboriginal. I would conclude that the laws of Australia are racist. Why don't they riot all the time? If the dry laws were applied to say, Paramatta, there would be mass street rioting - and righly so.

Dunno about all states but public/street drinking is a fine bearing offence in WA...for everyone.

But do you really believe that the dry Aboriginal communities are dry because that is what the community members (not the state supported leaders) want?

Yes. It wouldn't work without support from the local community. Even then it would be difficult.

And you really believe such a policy by white community leaders would be tolerated by a white community?

Possibly. It would only be implemented if it was tolerated. I know of many white communities in the past that have banned alcohol with varying degrees of success.

Except that is, for Aboriginal communities. Just how race-based can a law get?  

Not 'aboriginal communities' in general. Some specific communities that just happen to be mostly aboriginal. And they do abide by state liquor laws. They take it further.

You say "It is not racist as it applies by location". So it is ok to make laws based on location even where those locations are determined by racial presence? Your ground is weak.

They are not determined by racial presence. They are determined by local need and local support. These laws are not imposed on aboriginal communities that do not want them based on race.

History has shown time and time again that charity is not a valid way to teach people responsibility

How is this charity?

Forcibly denying an individual drink does not teach the individual how to drink responsibly or to make the decision of abstinence when they are inevitably presented with a choice.

They are not forcibly denied. They just can't drink in certain locations.

I thought freediver and sense had been debating the dry aboriginal communities?

Yes we got a bit sidetracked.

The answer I would quickly discover is that I'm not allowed to drink because I'm Aboriginal.

I have been not allowed alcohol in a dry community before. I'm white.

It's charity because you relieve people of their personal responsibility to manage their own behavior. You teach people nothing about personal responsibility by putting them in a situation where they don't have to exercise it.

I cannot believe you people going on about something you obviously know nothing about.
Dry communities in the N T are dry because the majority in the community want it that way.The Elders make it law and the Police enforce it for the protection and of the women and children.When the money arrives each week it is spent on food and clothes not grog.
The Dry areas in town means no public drinking within 2km of a liquor outlet.
Dont you people know that 95 percent of the aboriginal population dont drink because they choose not to.The only drunken boongs you see are the 5 percent that go to the towns.

"Dry communities in the N T are dry because the majority in the community want it that way."

Can you tell me about the process through which the majority view is determined? Eg Voting?

Rule by "elders" sounds like ageism. How are the Elders appointed?

from freediver "I'm sure if a local white community really wanted to become dry or change any of those other laws they could. Those communities do it with the backing of the state or federal government. It is not racist as it applies by location and applies to all people, white and black, tourists and locals."

Well, a local council today (Mereeba - nr Cairns) has just learnt that it has no powers over the liquor laws. Mareeba has a few problems with drunks and has tried to get the bottle shops to open at 2pm rather than 8am.  The community and and the COUNCIL supported this move. However, they learnt today that the State-based Liquor Commission has decided that the bottle shops are to continue to open at 8am.
Mareeba, just like every other local community in Australia, has a completely powerless council. Dry laws get enacted in aboriginal areas by the state liquor authorities. To say these are supported by the locals is a lie. It is the state exercising its power over the community. Just what they do to get the elders in tow, well I've no idea.
Australia has no constitutional legal local government. Where local government appears to exist, it exists at the whim of the State governments. Councillors (even when voted for) can be sacked at any time. The people in Aboriginal communities who are denied alcohol are denied by the State governments - not by their community.
Time to recognise that Australia's local communities - all of them - have no legal power.

wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 9:11pm:

from freediver "I'm sure if a local white community really wanted to become dry or change any of those other laws they could. Those communities do it with the backing of the state or federal government. It is not racist as it applies by location and applies to all people, white and black, tourists and locals." Well, a local council today (Mereeba - nr Cairns) has just learnt that it has no powers over the liquor laws. Mareeba has a few problems with drunks and has tried to get the bottle shops to open at 2pm rather than 8am.  The community and and the COUNCIL supported this move. However, they learnt today that the State-based Liquor Commission has decided that the bottle shops are to continue to open at 8am. Mareeba, just like every other local community in Australia, has a completely powerless council. Dry laws get enacted in aboriginal areas by the state liquor authorities. To say these are supported by the locals is a lie. It is the state exercising its power over the community. Just what they do to get the elders in tow, well I've no idea. Australia has no constitutional legal local government. Where local government appears to exist, it exists at the whim of the State governments. Councillors (even when voted for) can be sacked at any time. The people in Aboriginal communities who are denied alcohol are denied by the State governments - not by their community. Time to recognise that Australia's local communities - all of them - have no legal power.

This is untrue.


There are dry communities out here and it was decided at the local level..towns people etc.

Ok, ocean-blue/etc
You say it is untrue - you say dry communities are dry because that is what the locals want.
Why then can a white community (Mareeba) not have what it wants? ie 2pm bottleshop opening.
Don't you think there is some differential application of the liquor laws here?

Still waiting for answers to my previous post from Alooboof - ie how is the local will in Aboriginal communities determined?

I realise this is really a topic that Australians hate to address. The silence just endorses my understanding. Basically I'm saying the State implemented liquor laws are racist. It's the freedom of Aboriginal people that I care for - not just the authority of the Elders and the Liquor Commssion.

wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 10:09pm:

Ok, ocean-blue/etc You say it is untrue - you say dry communities are dry because that is what the locals want. Why then can a white community (Mareeba) not have what it wants? ie 2pm bottleshop opening. Don't you think there is some differential application of the liquor laws here? Still waiting for answers to my previous post from Alooboof - ie how is the local will in Aboriginal communities determined? I realise this is really a topic that Australians hate to address. The silence just endorses my understanding. Basically I'm saying the State implemented liquor laws are racist. It's the freedom of Aboriginal people that I care for - not just the authority of the Elders and the Liquor Commssion.

Australians dont hate to adress this topic --I think they are just sick to death of it..its been going on forever..very old and very difficult problem.

Liquor laws may vary from here, who knows..? But one thing is for certain...all Aboriginal communities and should be dry and it should be legislated by each state Government that this occur.

Lets see what you,ve got now 'sense'.

Thanks aus-gurl - that's very clear.

You reckon all Aboriginal communities should be dry and that the States should make it so.

I didn't expect you to make your racism quite so clear and emphatic. But I've got used to it in Australia.

wrote on May 21^st, 2007 at 10:36pm:

Thanks aus-gurl - that's very clear. You reckon all Aboriginal communities should be dry and that the States should make it so. I didn't expect you to make your racism quite so clear and emphatic. But I've got used to it in Australia.

no worries 'sense' and I make no apolagy either...

Indigenous People are allergic to alcohol, its the root of all evil in these communities. It causes horrific domestic violence, the rape nad abuse by adult men of two yr old babies,even younger, who often go on to contracts stds...the devastation of homes, rape and murder--it goes on and on..

Need more 'sense'.

Yeah lets give them all the alcohol they can hold, after all ''who gives a f--k".?

thats what I call racism.

To say these are supported by the locals is a lie.

Do you have any evidence of this?

However, they learnt today that the State-based Liquor Commission has decided that the bottle shops are to continue to open at 8am.

The dry communities have the support of both governments. You need to get the state government onside too. QLD had a lot of trouble with corruption a while back, a lot of it to do with liquor licenses. If you accuse the state government of putting Liquor sales ahead of the community you might get some attention. I find it hard to believe the majority of Mareeba locals supported the move.

Indigenous People are allergic to alcohol

No they aren't, just a bit more sensitive, on average.

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 10:15am:

To say these are supported by the locals is a lie. Do you have any evidence of this? However, they learnt today that the State-based Liquor Commission has decided that the bottle shops are to continue to open at 8am. The dry communities have the support of both governments. You need to get the state government onside too. QLD had a lot of trouble with corruption a while back, a lot of it to do with liquor licenses. If you accuse the state government of putting Liquor sales ahead of the community you might get some attention. I find it hard to believe the majority of Mareeba locals supported the move. Indigenous People are allergic to alcohol No they aren't, just a bit more sensitive, on average.

I never made this comment lightly freediver..there is scientific evidence to support this.

No there isn't.

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 10:27am:

No there isn't.

yes there is.

This is where you present the evidence....

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 10:34am:

This is where you present the evidence....

ok ok ...pushy..im looking :)

   
All: 1    Review: 0      
     


1: Aust N Z J Med. 1996 Apr;26(2):171-9. Related Articles, Links  


Risk factors for ill-health in a remote desert-dwelling aboriginal community in Western Australia.

Gracey M, Spargo RM, Smith P, Smith RM, Burke V, Beilin LJ, Beilby J, Chin C.

Aboriginal Health Division, Health Department of WA.

BACKGROUND: Living in small, isolated groups may promote health for Aborigines if traditional lifestyles are followed, but overall health risks in such communities are inadequately documented. AIM: To document health status of a remote Aboriginal community with reference to nutrition, cardiovascular risks, renal disease and infections and to identify areas where health might be improved. METHODS: All residents of a small community in the Great Sandy Desert underwent medical examinations, anthropometry and measurement of blood pressure. Investigations included cholesterol, triglycerides, glucose, insulin, creatinine, lipoprotein (a), apolipoprotein E phenotype, angiotensin-converting enzyme genotype, urinalysis, stool microscopy (children), liver function tests and full blood examination. RESULTS: Children (n = 26) were undernourished while 14% of adults (n = 51) were underweight, 22% overweight and 40% of women and 13% of men were obese with central obesity in 90% of women and 48% of men. Fifteen per cent of the group were hypertensive. Insulin levels were increased in 55% of subjects, total cholesterol in 21% and triglycerides in 56%, while HDL was decreased in 78%. Angiotensin-converting enzyme and apolipoprotein E typing and lipoprotein (a) did not suggest increased cardiovascular risk. Proteinuria was present in 39% of subjects, haematuria in 49% and definite or possible urinary tract infections in 30%. Faecal parasites were prevalent and a history of infections, including sexually transmitted diseases, was common. CONCLUSIONS: Increased cardiovascular risk, nutritional disorders, renal disease and infections are major problems in this community which had relocated several years previously from a mission environment closer to western influences, including alcohol.

My point being freediver there is an enzyme responsible responsible for the inadequate conversion and metabolism of alcohol by Aborignes..This enzyme is missing because Aborigines havent been in contact with alcohol for long enough to develop this enzyme as Europeans have done.

There are many articles that have bits and peices relating to Aborigines and Aisians, from whence Indigenous Australins came in the 1st place but not much foccussing on Aborigines in isolation.

Ill see if I can find more later.

The reason the addiction of alcohol;ism is so high in these communties is because of this problem.

Governments know of this yet, it goes unchecked.

There's nothing in there about alergies.

an allergy is an intolerance to certain substances or outside foreign stimulus,..and it doesnt mention alcohol either I see, but it came up under scholarly articles for alcohol intolerance. See if I can find a better one.

I do have a background in Aboriginal studies through Uni ..so I know of this problem, but finding relevant articles is not easy..I will keep looking.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AbHfZnrp_w0C&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=alcohol+aborigine+enzyme&source=web&ots=4xvUW37wHT&sig=xl5rIc_QDfT86zDWqalrbt5A8Kw#PPA64,M1

Freediver..this link should go to an articel that has the subject of alcohol metabolism for Aborigines in it.

It speaks of the enzyme problem I mentioned.

and its interesting, because if you click on the link it doesnt work, but if you cut and paste it into the bar above, it does.

wrote on May 22^nd, 2007 at 7:58pm:

and its interesting, because if you click on the link it doesnt work, but if you cut and paste it into the bar above, it does.

Ill put a partial quote here for anyone who cannot access the link.

"There are many reasons why the effects of alcohol consumption amongst Aborigines could be different to Europeans".....


"In Aborigines from the moment alcohol is consumed there are almost certainly faults in the essential breakdown breakdown system involving the enzyme 'ethyl acohol dehydrogenase' (in the liver). This is compounded by diest that are refined carbohydrate excessive and mineral and vitamin deficient. The end result is bio chemical mayhem leading to disorderd brain functions and loss of normal control.'

I hope this helps FD.

Oceans, so what does that mean ?
They get drunk easy ?

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 23^rd, 2007 at 11:56pm:

Oceans, so what does that mean ? They get drunk easy ?

yes Sprint very much so...and they also become addicted (alcoholism) very easy.. need a very small amount to produce drunkeness., the kind we see flashed into our lounge rooms.

There also other inherent problems that go along with this deficient enzyme..diabetes , kidney disease etc. A very serious problem overall...

What does everyone think of Howard's 'bold new vision' for remote communities in the NT? It's not just alcohol that will be affected, it sounds like they are going to try to limit pornography, interfere in land rights and welfare payments and pay for checkups of every child that will include keeping an eye out for signs of abuse.

---

Beattie blasts indigenous alcohol bans

http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking-news/beattie-blasts-indigenous-alcohol-bans/2007/06/22/1182019354536.html

A federal government plan to ban alcohol in indigenous communities is a "silly gimmick" to win a federal election, Queensland Premier Peter Beattie says.

Prime Minister John Howard has announced plans to take control of about 60 Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory as part of a wide-ranging drive to stem the endemic child abuse crisis.

Under the crackdown, alcohol will be banned, initially for six months.

Pornography will also be banned, police numbers will rise and there will be compulsory health checks for Aboriginal children.

Welfare payments could also be quarantined to ensure the money is spent on essentials like food, instead of drugs and alcohol.

Federal Labor leader Kevin Rudd has supported the plans and Queensland Opposition Leader Jeff Seeney urged Mr Beattie to implement some aspects of them - although he said a total alcohol ban was not needed in Queensland because management plans were already in place.

---

Audit criticises Qld indigenous councils

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Audit-criticises-Qld-indigenous-councils/2007/06/26/1182623869487.html

An audit of Queensland's 32 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island councils has revealed more than $5 million of "unrecoverable" debt, including loans to council members and their families.

---

NT may widen alcohol restrictions

http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking-news/nt-may-widen-alcohol-restrictions/2007/06/27/1182623984359.html

The Northern Territory is considering stronger alcohol restrictions in urban areas to deal with any problems caused by the federal ban on alcohol in indigenous communities.

Concerns are growing that a six-month ban on alcohol in territory Aboriginal communities, part of Canberra's drive to stamp out sex abuse, will drive many drinkers into urban areas.

---

Alice Springs becoming 'dry town'

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Alice-Springs-becoming-dry-town/2007/07/31/1185647897217.html

The desert town of Alice Springs officially becomes a "dry zone" on Wednesday, when drinking is banned from all public places to curb crime and violence.

The move follows a request from locals, who told the Northern Territory Licensing Commission that grog consumption was jeopardising public safety.

People who break the rule face fines of up to $500.

Teenager arrested after baby is bashed to death in outback
Email Print Normal font Large font Lindsay Murdoch and Russell Skelton
July 4, 2007

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AdvertisementA BABY girl has been killed during a disturbance in a remote Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory.

The three-month-old's skull was allegedly bashed with a rock at Epenarra, 120 kilometres east of the Stuart Highway, south of Tennant Creek. The community was bracing for payback violence last night as police interviewed a 17-year-old youth over her death.

Five carloads of youths - armed with nulla nullas, knives and other weapons - were seen entering the community about 9pm last night. Police turned the Herald back 60 kilometres from Epenarra, saying they could not guarantee the safety of anybody who entered the community.

The 17-year-old being questioned over the death was detained at Ali Curung, a nearby community, with the help of locals 20 kilometres from Epenarra.

"He is currently assisting police with their inquiries," police said.

The baby's father is 17 and the mother is 16.

The killing happened as police, troops and federal public servants continued to arrive in other communities north of Alice Springs as part of the Federal Government's crackdown on child abuse.

Community sources said it was believed the child had died while the mother was trying to protect herself from a violent assault by a drunken male.

The baby was taken to a health clinic in Epenarra at 8pm on Monday. The Royal Flying Doctor Service was called but she was pronounced dead.

A team of detectives and a crime scene examiner yesterday flew from Darwin to Epenarra.

Northern Territory police said: "The exact circumstances of the incident remain unclear at this stage, although it appears the baby sustained head injuries during a disturbance." An autopsy was scheduled for last night to determine the cause of death.

Epenarra has no council office, no permanent police presence or doctor. It is serviced by a small medical clinic. It is regarded as one of the most dysfunctional and disadvantaged communities in the Tennant Creek area.

The Indigenous Affairs Minister, Mal Brough, was told about the killing during a cabinet meeting in Canberra.

He is due to fly to the Territory today and to visit remote communities, including Mutitjulu, near Uluru, where the first police contingent will begin on Friday.



nb, the attack happened by a drunk man. Take away the alcohol, it would probably not have happened.

Sprintcyclist - as I said in response to your post in Cracker - this is not just an aboriginal drunk crime.  Howard's new policies won't stop this.

We have dozens of young white men locked up in our jails because they have murdered their sons or stepsons.

It is not a highly unusual crime by a paternal figure.

mantra - ????

".....from a violent assault by a drunken male. "
"....remote Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory"
"...Indigenous Affairs Minister, Mal Brough, was told about the killing during a cabinet meeting "


Looks like an aborigine was involved, looks like alcohol was involved.
drink is the insidious drug.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 4^th, 2007 at 12:26pm:

mantra - ???? ".....from a violent assault by a drunken male. " "....remote Aboriginal community in the Northern Territory" "...Indigenous Affairs Minister, Mal Brough, was told about the killing during a cabinet meeting " Looks like an aborigine was involved, looks like alcohol was involved. drink is the insidious drug.

I guess its inevitable mantra that some will jump on the 'bash the abo bandwagon'...happens all the time.

Looks like an aborigine was involved, looks like alcohol was involved.
drink is the insidious drug.


and ..so what????

So howards move would have stopped that babies death.
No alcohol would have lead to a baby still alive

It is a rare crime.  Whenever it happens it is given a lot of media coverage.
This one was specifically  "an aboriginal drunk crime"

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 4^th, 2007 at 2:02pm:

So howards move would have stopped that babies death. No alcohol would have lead to a baby still alive It is a rare crime.  Whenever it happens it is given a lot of media coverage. This one was specifically  "an aboriginal drunk crime"

shoulda , woulda, coulda,..your statement is biased towards black pple Sprint.

At least as many whites commit the same crime under the same circumstances..but you choose to islolate this example. ?

I say it like it is..biased and stirring racial intent.

how is this fair or christian?

It would have been fair for the baby had there been no alcohol in that community.
It's a christian thing to help those unable to help themselves.

I speak also as an alcoholic.

Did you used to beat young mothers up while you were drunk?

Sprintcyclist - be realistic.  Half the Australian population are alcoholics.  Are you saying that it's only the black man who gets drunk and abuses, assaults and murders.  

Unfortunately with all the controversy surrounding Howard's intervention - aboriginals are going to be vilified more than they already are and there will be plenty of people quick to condemn them.

There are already alcohol bans in place in many places in the NT.  This new ban will make little difference as those who are addicted will just wander off to a place where they can get some.

[quote]
mantra wrote on Jul 4^th, 2007 at 3:40pm:

Sprintcyclist - be realistic.  Half the Australian population are alcoholics.

I'll vouch for that :o

the ratio of children abuse in aboriginal communities and the rest of society points towards the aboriginal communities being a problem.

that is not to say there is anything inherintly wrong with an aboriginal person, but the culture many of them currently live in is not a good one, and so sprint is not wrong by highlighting the aborginal populations have a problem.

Woman, boy dead in stab frenzyArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print Submit comment: Submit comment Robyn Ironside
July 06, 2007 07:06am

A SIX year old boy and a 24-year-old-woman are dead, and a seven-year-old girl is in a critical condition in hospital after a series of stabbings in Cherbourg.

A 23-year-old woman, believed to be the dead boy's mother, is assisting police with their inquiries.

Police were called to a home in the south east Queensland community around 3am today, after reports of up to five stabbings.

The six year old was found dead, and the seven-year-old has been airlifted to Mater Children's Hospital in Brisbane for treatment.

Another two children were also treated by medical staff.

The dead woman, believed to be the boy's aunt, also died on her way to Murgon hospital. Police refused to confirm whether she died of stab wounds.

Police from Gympie and Murgon are investigating the attacks.



Cherbourg Aboriginal Shire Mayor Ken Bone said the deaths were an absolute tragedy for the small close knit community.
"Everybody just about knows everybody. I've seen these girls grow up," he said in reference to the family at the centre of last night' events.

"I've known this family all my life. They've never experienced anything like this."

He said the community would take the news hard, after a series of deaths in the past week.

"We've got funerals next week for an elderly man, a teenage boy and an elderly woman," he said.

"And now this. Its very, very sad."


 oceans, mantra ???  

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 6^th, 2007 at 9:39am:

Woman, boy dead in stab frenzyArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print Submit comment: Submit comment Robyn Ironside July 06, 2007 07:06am A SIX year old boy and a 24-year-old-woman are dead, and a seven-year-old girl is in a critical condition in hospital after a series of stabbings in Cherbourg. A 23-year-old woman, believed to be the dead boy's mother, is assisting police with their inquiries. Police were called to a home in the south east Queensland community around 3am today, after reports of up to five stabbings. The six year old was found dead, and the seven-year-old has been airlifted to Mater Children's Hospital in Brisbane for treatment. Another two children were also treated by medical staff. The dead woman, believed to be the boy's aunt, also died on her way to Murgon hospital. Police refused to confirm whether she died of stab wounds. Police from Gympie and Murgon are investigating the attacks. Cherbourg Aboriginal Shire Mayor Ken Bone said the deaths were an absolute tragedy for the small close knit community. "Everybody just about knows everybody. I've seen these girls grow up," he said in reference to the family at the centre of last night' events. "I've known this family all my life. They've never experienced anything like this." He said the community would take the news hard, after a series of deaths in the past week. "We've got funerals next week for an elderly man, a teenage boy and an elderly woman," he said. "And now this. Its very, very sad."  oceans, mantra ???

Sad, but so what...same parralels here.

Why is this so different to a similar murder happening at the same time in Sydney?

[Officers arrived at an address on Hydrae Street soon after, about 4pm, and found an unspeakable scene. The woman's husband and teenage daughter had been stabbed to death. Another of the woman's daughters was wandering nearby streets, covered in blood.

The daughter, in her mid-20s, was arrested by police in Uranus Street and taken to hospital where she remains under police guard. She has minor injuries and is helping police with their inquiries.]

The difference is - one family is aboriginal - the other a well off white family.  The aboriginal murders made the headlines - while the Revesby murder was in tiny print underneath.

Sounds like discrimination to me.

Sounds like Johnny is correct to me - again.

Difference being, one was prob someone who was crazy, the other was prob alcohol affected and a pattern of behaviour in that community.

The alleged murderer was their daughter in her 20's - she killed her little sister, her father and her mother is in a critical condition in hospital.

Sprintcyclist you can't assume that one was alcohol and the other was mental illness - they are both similar crimes but happening in different socio economic societies.

Yes the aboriginal abuse per ratio is obviously worse - but the same crimes are committed by white Australia.

Sprint, you think stabbing a bunch of people is a 'pattern of behaviour' in Cherbourg?

drinking and violence is the pattern.

howard wants it to stop.  
some people seem to think it is ok

What is interesting about the "nice" white family who were murdered yesterday allegedly by their daughter is what their neighbours had to say:


Quote:

The neighbour said the couple had two daughters – one a 15-year-old and the other, who was older, went to university. "They're church-going people, very, very nice people," the neighbour said.

Maybe Howard could stop this sort of brutality if he banned people from going to church.

Does the frequency of that warrant such a move ?

I'm not saying that the aboriginal people don't need help - but in one breath the Government is talking about alcohol bans and in the next breath it says that it will re-open some alcohol outstations that were previously banned.  It was in the news today, I just can't find it at the moment.

The point is they are not only going to have a ban on alcohol - just imagine white Australians who like a drink having to go without - there would be a revolution.  They are also going to ban pornography - how many males in Australia like pornography?  How many white paedophiles have we got in Australia?  Should the government make it a nationwide ban?

As far as the church goes - it's out of the news now for some reason, but how many hundreds of clergy have been responsible for paedophilia?  These men have been in responsible positions of trust - yet they have ruined thousands of lives through their perversions - yet they escape?  Double standards.

What people don't trust about Howard's intervention is why does the land grab have to be part of the deal?  Why can't they go in and do their good deeds - even though those who refuse  to have their children examined will lose their welfare. They are within their rights to refuse according to the Racial Discrimination Act - but Howard says this isn't force - no, but it sounds like blackmail to me.

the life expectancy of aboriginals is about 20 years less than whites.
If we were that bad, it'ld be right to ban alcohol from aussie.

the prevelance of child abuse in ab. communities warrants immediate attention.

yes, sex abuse has happened in churches too, and scouting clubs etc etc.
I don't want ot give my taxes to drunk child abusers

It pretty poor that you want to stop moves to help children, just for the sake of your hatred of a politician.

I have said all along Sprintcyclist that helping the aboriginals is extremely important - but it should be across the board - not just to one race of people ie that is bans, physical examinations mandatory to all those suspected of being abused and a complete ban on pornography and alcohol.

I wouldn't be so cynical if the land grab wasn't part of the deal in "helping" them.

I'm not saying that the aboriginal people don't need help - but in one breath the Government is talking about alcohol bans and in the next breath it says that it will re-open some alcohol outstations that were previously banned.  It was in the news today, I just can't find it at the moment.

I understand what your saying mantra..and i understand what Sprint is saying..but the fact is..John Howard is so deviat we just cannot believe he would be now at the 11th hour want to help these so desperately needy pple, if it werent to help hmself.

Sprint -Mantra would never advocate NOT helping such a needy group of pple., its not in her nature, but like me and most of Australia it comes as too little too late...who could believe his heart is in the right place when we know only to well his human rights record.

David Hicks..etc

The oppression sexual abuse and horrific domestic violence suffered in these commnuities for the last 11 yrs. Im not sure what you dont get Sprint.

Its asking to much for us to be asked to believe that this man is little more  than greedy  opprtunist whos main interests and best friiends are the likes of Bush and big busness and Politicians. These best friends of Howard has profitted at the expense of these little abused children , and thats not to mention the rest of Australia whos standard of living has been eroding for the last 11 yrs...pple on disabilty, age pensioners, sole parents, the unemployed etc, he wants to punish thenm all, for what being down and out????..we could be here all day of we cared to go back and do a complete list.

Hes taken from the poor to give to the rich, hes robbed this country blind.

I think hes got a huge shoe collection like Imelda Marcos somewhere. ;)

http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/Howard-a-racist-bastard-NZ-Maori-MP/2007/07/09/1183833405620.html

An MP for New Zealand Maori Party has labelled Australian Prime Minister John Howard a "racist bastard" for his radical intervention aimed at stopping child abuse in Aboriginal communities.

Hone Harawira's comments will screen on New Zealand television on Monday night.

"If I was an Aboriginal man in the Northern Territory I would feel like absolute s*** right now," the Maori Party MP told AAP.

"I would have the leader of my country saying I am an alcoholic, I am into pornography, I am into sexual abuse. All I would want to do is go out and smash someone."

That is one of the reasons why  I left new zealand and now am an Aussie.

This is further proof that Howard is correct again.
May 16, 2006
Page 1 of 2 | Single page
ALICE Springs Crown prosecutor Nanette Rogers has described in shocking detail an epidemic of sexual abuse and violent death — especially among women and young children — that pervades indigenous communities throughout central Australia.

Ms Rogers, who has handled hundreds of cases of sexual assault in 12 years as a prosecutor, has prepared a graphic dossier that includes a description

And in another case, Ms Rogers described how . Her mother and the father had been drunk at the time of the assault, which was carried out by a young man.

"The volume (of sexual assault) is huge and I don't have a single file in my room that is not related to violence. Seventy per cent of the cases are violent crimes against women. The practice comprises homicides, grievous bodily harm, adult sexual assaults and child sexual assaults."

Ms Rogers' disclosures are in a dossier obtained by the ABC's Lateline program. They are based on case files that have come across her desk, confirming in horrific anecdotal detail a level of sexual abuse that has gone unchecked in remote indigenous communities where there are often few or no police.

She said witnesses and victims were often forced to retract evidence because of intense cultural pressure and, as a result, many cases went unprosecuted.

Rather than blame alcohol and substance abuse for what she says are staggering levels of domestic and community violence, Ms Rogers said indigenous communities, especially the men, must accept responsibility for the violence. She said the causes of the violence could be traced to a culture that promoted male authority over women.

Ms Rogers' views, broadcast at length on Lateline last night, are drawn from a paper she delivered to a recent closed conference of police officers. They are certain to cause controversy in the Northern Territory, which has the highest rates of murder and physical assault in Australia.

Sexual violence has been a largely taboo subject in the NT, an issue seldom, if ever, publicly addressed by Aboriginal leaders and never openly addressed by the NT Government. There are few programs for domestic violence among indigenous organisations.

Ms Rogers, who declined to be interviewed by The Age last night, told the ABC of another case in which a small baby was stabbed twice in the leg by a man attempting to kill her mother. In another case a teenager witnessed his grandfather being stabbed repeatedly in the throat. "These kids see violence as an everyday part of their life and many of them become violent themselves," she said.

She said that out of this culture often emerged a pattern where the boys "beat their wives" and their sisters were "beaten by their husbands". Asked if violence was a built into the culture she said: "Yes."

She said that young men were given a status in the community where they were not made accountable for their actions.

Ms Rogers said she had given up being a public defender after becoming "sick of acting for violent Aboriginal men".

"Small children become so inured to the violence. It doesn't augur well for Aboriginal people to be functional human beings with the attributes for turning around and caring for children themselves," she told the ABC.

■ The Federal Government will help the Northern Territory fix alcohol prices in a bid to stamp out alcohol abuse, parliamentary secretary for health and ageing, Christopher Pyne, has promised.

After a meeting of state and federal health and police ministers yesterday, Mr Pyne pledged to help the NT overcome obstacles such as competition laws, which prevent it from setting alcohol prices or otherwise regulating liquor sales.

"We want pricing to be available as a tool to the Northern Territory Government in combating their alcohol problems," Mr Pyne said. How that would be practically worked out was still to be decided, he said.

In the past, some NT retailers have attempted to band together to increase the price of alcohol in what they said was a bid to stop abuse. But the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission opposed the move, saying it amounted to price fixing. The ACCC also found the price rise would not stop people buying alcohol, but simply leave them less money to spend on essentials such as food.

With ANNABEL STAFFORD

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/05/15/1147545263399.html

I have deleted some details.




Six men charged with child sex offencesArticle from: AAPFont size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print July 09, 2007 07:09pm

Six men in their twenties have been charged with a range of child sex offences against three young girls in Western Australia's north.

Police today charged the men with 18 offences against the girls which allegedly occurred in the Halls Creek area between 2005 and 2007.

A police task force, including members of the Department of Child Protection, has been sent to the area to investigate systemic child abuse in the community.

Acting Deputy Police Commissioner Graeme Lienert said the charges arose from an investigation into how a 13-year-old girl had contracted a sexually transmissible disease in February.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22044496-5003402,00.h

The ACCC is right - if they want to stop people drinking by putting it up to a ridiculously high price - it will not stop the drinking - only give the Government more in taxes.  

An alcoholic will find the means to drink one way or another and like a drug addict no doubt crime will increase in order for them to get their fix.  What a stupid, stupid idea.

As far as sexual assault goes - it has been going on with the white miners in nearby towns.  Apparently the mine manager sacks the blokes if he finds out - but that's the end of the story.  These men are getting away with having sex with underage girls - so why can't they be dragged before the Courts and punished as well?

This whole intervention scenario stinks - I don't trust Howard for a split second on this.  Not only is he again making the lines of apartheid clear for all to see - he is punishing a whole race of people for the actions of a few.

He will get the land for his mining mates - don't forget Haliburton has signed a deal with this government for his Global Waste Uranium Dump - the land which till now has been difficult to obtain.  Once the Government takes back Aboriginal land - that will be the end of it for them.

They will be far worse off than they have been since white settlement.  He's stripping everything off them.

As far as porn goes - let's put a ban on all porn - after all it's basically men who like it.  Let's see some of the government deviats give up their secret fantasies as well.

mantra wrote on Jul 10^th, 2007 at 8:43am:

The ACCC is right - if they want to stop people drinking by putting it up to a ridiculously high price - it will not stop the drinking - only give the Government more in taxes.   An alcoholic will find the means to drink one way or another and like a drug addict no doubt crime will increase in order for them to get their fix.  What a stupid, stupid idea. As far as sexual assault goes - it has been going on with the white miners in nearby towns.  Apparently the mine manager sacks the blokes if he finds out - but that's the end of the story.  These men are getting away with having sex with underage girls - so why can't they be dragged before the Courts and punished as well? This whole intervention scenario stinks - I don't trust Howard for a split second on this.  Not only is he again making the lines of apartheid clear for all to see - he is punishing a whole race of people for the actions of a few. He will get the land for his mining mates - don't forget Haliburton has signed a deal with this government for his Global Waste Uranium Dump - the land which till now has been difficult to obtain.  Once the Government takes back Aboriginal land - that will be the end of it for them. They will be far worse off than they have been since white settlement.  He's stripping everything off them. As far as porn goes - let's put a ban on all porn - after all it's basically men who like it.  Let's see some of the government deviats give up their secret fantasies as well.

Well said mantra..porn should be banned nationwide.

Howards actions have resonated apparently with a few voters unable or unwilling to see it for what it is , but Labor still leads Libs by 10 points 2 party preferred. Howard is now one point behind Rudd on the preferred PM rating..thats the Chanell 9 result anyway.

Raising the cost of anything makes no difference if one is addicted. The cost of cigerettes were about $3 per packet when I gave up, and thank god I did..at $14 and $17 a packet it is a horrendously expensive addiction these days and doesnt seem to be deterring too many pple evn with the graphic advertising labels.

What makes me sick is the verys erious issue of child sexual abuse being used as a poltical "football" as they say, by Howard.

Getting stuck in and doing something after long last is great, but if its not driven by a genuine desire, which this isnt, it will die completely by the time we go to the polls and will never be heard of  again until next election.And in the meantime theyve done more damage than ever in these communities.

Every other day now a "new case" of child sex abuse is coming out of NT.

Blo ody pathetic.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/NT-sexual-health-checks-are-voluntary/2007/07/10/1183833471506.html

Sexual health checks done as part of the crackdown on indigenous sex abuse in the Northern Territory are voluntary, the federal Health Department has stressed.

The first of the federal government's comprehensive health checks for children under 16 begin on Tuesday under the government's emergency intervention plan.

A doctor, three nurses and a social worker will set up practices at Hermannsburg, 130 kilometres from Alice Springs.

Dr Tim Williams from the federal Health Department expects doctors to come across common health issues but said it will be harder to detect sexual abuse.

"There is no screening process as such for sexual abuse," Dr Williams told ABC radio. "We're just providing a comprehensive child health check.

"We are hoping that if sexual abuse is an issue that comes to our attention we're definitely going to have our health professionals taking action about that."

The government is using blackmail to do these health checks - if they suspect (whoever they are?) a child has been sexually abused, unless the parents agree to their child being physically examined - they will have their income cut off.

They have only got voluntary staff at the moment for this intervention - how is that supposed to help the Aboriginals change their life?

The State Governments and the NT Government in particular are being blamed for the neglect of these communities - but this article from the NT Indigenous Times says otherwise - http://www.nit.com.au/story.aspx?id=11884


Quote:

Brough and mainstream media - particularly the ABC - have claimed Mutitjulu's parlous state is a result of NT Labor government neglect. But the township is actually administered through the federal government, and has been since the mid-1980s. Mutitjulu falls within the boundaries of the Uluru Kata-Tjuta National Park and the local council - the Mutitjulu Community Aboriginal Corporation (MCAC) - is funded and controlled directly by the federal government (through the Office of the Registrar of Aboriginal Corporations - ORAC). The community of Epenarra (also known as Wutunugurra) in the east of the Territory is governed by the Julalikari Council Aboriginal Corporation (JCAC) based in Tennant Creek. JCAC is also funded directly by the federal government and is registered under ORAC. Robinson River, which is in the north east of the Territory and has a population of around 300, is another federally-funded community that has been listed for intervention. It's local council is also controlled by ORAC. In the south-west of the state, the community of Kintore, population around 450, is listed for federal government intervention. It is funded directly by the Commonwealth government through its local government body, the Walungurru Council. The community of Ampilatwatja - 325km North East of Alice Springs - is listed for intervention, but the surrounding communities of Irrultja, Atnwengerrp and Welere, each of which fall within the same community council (Aherrenge) have not been included. The community of Utopia - north east of Alice Springs - does not appear in the government list, but has been federally controlled for several decades. It's local council - Urapuntja - looks after around 1,000 people across 16 different outstation communities.

So why is the Government misleading the Australian population over whose responsibility is whose?

Sorry mantra, all I read from you on this topic is you don't give a hoot about kids being raped and am determined to "prove" howard wrong.

Howard is doing something. They are not your kids, yours sleep safely and soundly.
To score points on a decisive PM, you'ld take any side on any topic.

Should the paedophiles get a more lenient sentence than white people living in mainstream community who commit the same crime? Going by the numbers in The Australian today, the abuse is rife, and can be at least partly attributed to failure to enforce the law previously. If the law had been enforced, a lot of the incidents would never have happened and there would be far fewer men from these small communities being dragged through the courts. We leave these communities to themselves for a while and let them degenerate, then we round them all up and jail them for their degeneracy.

Sprintcyclist - that's quite insulting inferring that I don't care about the children.  Good thing I don't get insulted easily.  I could also say that you don't care about our indigenous people at all because you are so blinded by John Howard that you can't see his true motives and look at what he is doing objectively.

You saw from that article I posted that many communities do not fall under State control, but Federal - so the Coalition has been very lax in bringing law and order to these communities.  It has taken them 11 years and now just prior to an election they are suddenly being seen as doing something.

As Freediver pointed out - these communities have been left to degenerate and all of a sudden they are being arrested after years of neglect.   All the people in the communities are being treated the same - whether they are good or bad and there are no back up services in place to help them.

Howard is doing something. They are not your kids, yours sleep safely and soundly.  
To score points on a decisive PM, you'ld take any side on any topic.

Sprint these phrases ie "sleeping safe and sound "are phrases being bandied around in the media..you soak up propaganda like a sponge dont you.?

I think what your trouble is Sprint the Ind problem wasnt really known to you prior to the NT scam.

Thing is Ive lived with this my whole life, having lived in the outback for most of my life..this is not news to me..and yes even to I and many pple who live in towns such as mine it is sickening..but the most sickening thing of all Sprint is for most of my life was the fact that Govts allowed it to happen!!!

THEY ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN-THEY KNEW AND DID NOTHING!!! LITTLE BABIES AND CHILDREN HAVE BEEN RAPED AND MURDERED FOR 200 YRS AND GOVTS ALLOW IT- IF THEY KNEW--AND THEY DO AND DID!! AND THEY DONT ACT? IT MEANS THEY HAVE ALLOWED  IT. GOT THAT?????

THIS IS WHAT MAKES PPLE LIKE ME AND MANTRA ANGRY AND DISBELIEVING!!! AND DISGUSTED---- THEY ARE BEING USED FOR POLITICAL GAIN!!! NO CARING HERE--- JUST AN ELECTION PLOY..

To me this suggests a far more fundamental failure and a far more fundamental solution than the economic 'carrot and stick' approach.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22125215-29277,00.html

SOME Aborigines do not fully understand what child abuse is, the chair of the Federal Government's indigenous intervention strategy said.

Sue Gordon said she has been speaking with women in Maningrida, one of the communities which is to be taken over as part of a Commonwealth plan to stop child sex abuse in Northern Territory Aboriginal communities.

"I spoke to them about the definitions of child abuse, that is a lot of people don't fully understand it," Dr Gordon told ABC radio.

"Sometimes people think that sexual abuse is a straight sexual assault but it can take many forms.

"It's very important for women to understand there's a difference between a rape, sexual assault and grooming a child for abuse."

Dr Gordon said she had also spoken to the women about the importance of children attending school.

"They're thinking ... the children do need long-term help and I thought that was a very good outcome."

---

PM backs minister over grog claims

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/PM-backs-minister-over-grog-claims/2007/07/24/1185043086970.html

Prime Minister John Howard has leapt to the defence of one of his ministers, who has been accused of taking alcohol into a dry Northern Territory Aboriginal community.

NT police are investigating reports that a group of people - including Community Services Minister Nigel Scullion and his fellow coalition MP Dave Tollner - took grog to the Tiwi Islands, north of Darwin, at the weekend.

Local islanders contacted police to report that people on a Country Liberal Party (CLP) fishing trip had consumed alcohol in a restricted area.

Labor's indigenous affairs spokeswoman Jenny Macklin said if proven, the allegations would create a serious political problem for the government, which has moved to ban alcohol in NT indigenous communities.

http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1184028944
http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1183509936
http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1174569762
http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1178691492

Oceans, I have just read your posting. Was not ignoring it, the topic is important to me.

As I have been aware, aborigines have had alcohol/isolation/abuse issues for many decades.
Despite the many millions of dollars given to them and all sorts of assistance and whatever aboriginal led committe has ever started.
Nothing has improved.

I hope something is being done now.
I think every support should be given to anyone who does anyting to stop this.
I don't care who that is. As long as they do something different.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Safe-houses-for-abuse-accusers-floated/2007/07/24/1185043115688.html

Governments should provide safe houses for indigenous people who speak out about child abuse in their communities, former ATSIC head Lowitja O'Donoghue says.

Professor O'Donoghue says people who live in close-knit communities, where cultural law is alive and well, find it extremely difficult to speak out about abuse.

and rudds leadership vote is only 1 pt ahead of johns.
Wonder what will happen when the air leaks from the twofaced labour sham.




Labor still ahead in latest opinion poll
Posted 3 hours 19 minutes ago
Updated 25 minutes ago


Mr Howard has recorded his best rating as preferred Prime Minister since February. (Getty Images: Ian Waldie)

Video: Mixed results in latest opinion poll (ABC News) Improved support for Prime Minister John Howard in the latest Newspoll has failed to help the Coalition dent Labor's election winning lead.

Labor has increased its primary vote by two points to lead 48 to 39.

After preferences Labor still leads the Coalition by 12 points.

The polling period includes Mr Howard's Indigenous intervention and a focus on national security.

Mr Howard has recorded his best rating as preferred Prime Minister since February, cutting Kevin Rudd's lead in the Newspoll to one point.

But Labor's Nicola Roxon is not worried.

"He's always been a clever politician, he will do everything he can in the lead up to this election to win, but Labor will continue to set out its positive plan," she said.

Ms Roxon says there is still a mood for change.

"I think the results are very clear that people are interested in Kevin [Rudd] and interested in Labor's agenda," she said.

"We'll keep doing what we are doing, setting out our plans for the future, and those results will take care of themselves."

The Prime Minister's intervention in the Northern Territory is popular, with 61 per cent of those polled approving.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/10/1974207.htm

That's 61% nationwide, not 61% in the NT, right?

That figure is misleading.  61% might agree that the government should help our indigenous people - but it doesn't say whether they agree with the way they are going about it.

In fact that bit of information was taken from a Newspoll conducted exclusively for the Australian - a noted pro-Liberal newspaper.

It was just added to put a spin on the headlines - inferring Howard is on his way up again - when in actual fact he's not.  We have no idea how the question was even phrased when the poll was taken.

most people think something should be done about a pattern of child rape.

except antihowards.

That's a fairly broad statement Sprintcyclist.  So all those who don't support Howard condone child rape?  First I've heard of it.

and rudds leadership vote is only 1 pt ahead of johns.  
Wonder what will happen when the air leaks from the twofaced labour sham. "



That figure only takes into account the little boost he got from his NT Scam..but on  2 party preferred ALP are 12 points ahead.
So Sprint he needs a bit more yet as you have acknowleded.



most people think something should be done about a pattern of child rape.

except antihowards.

That statement Sprint is driven by emotion and frustration Sprint. Its not either or. Its that some question his sincerity and motive and others keep falling for the same old cr ap. Most pple agree, something needs to be done, but most pple also question his motives.

Mantra and I are very anti Howard and theres nothing wrong with that..and we do question his motives and there are some very good reason for that.

Perhaps you didn't read the article closely enough. Labor is AHEAD of the Coalition by 12 points on the 2pp vote. And considering this is the first time in 6 months that Howard's prefered PM rating has even come close to Rudd, and that Labor's primary vote has actually increased, this is probably just a low water mark for Rudd. Labor's 2pp vote in marginal seats is 59% while in safe government seats its 52%. Labor has an election winning lead in every state and territory except WA.I think you, Sprintcyclist, are the one that should be preparing to weep not Labor.

Progs wrote on Jul 15^th, 2007 at 1:41am:

Perhaps you didn't read the article closely enough. Labor is AHEAD of the Coalition by 12 points on the 2pp vote. And considering this is the first time in 6 months that Howard's prefered PM rating has even come close to Rudd, and that Labor's primary vote has actually increased, this is probably just a low water mark for Rudd. Labor's 2pp vote in marginal seats is 59% while in safe government seats its 52%. Labor has an election winning lead in every state and territory except WA.I think you, Sprintcyclist, are the one that should be preparing to weep not Labor.

bugger OFF

progs - I did read all that and am preparing my mourning.

I stay with my team. I chose them cause I feel they are the best, if it looks like they will lose, does not matter, they are still the best.

There is that self fulfilling idea where people think, "Looks like XYZ will win, I better vote for them."
After the election, they are all happy they "backed" a winner.

AusNat - Right back at ya!  8-)

Sprintcyclist - Thats why Labor will win, they're the best team to lead this country into the future.

There is that self fulfilling idea where people think, "Looks like XYZ will win, I better vote for them."
After the election, they are all happy they "backed" a winner.

No there isn't. I've never heard of anyone voting that way. In fact it tends to be the opposite in Australia.

---

I've combined a heap of threads into one here.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Authors-of-NT-abuse-report-betrayed/2007/08/05/1186252533536.html

The authors of the child abuse report that prompted the federal government's emergency intervention say they feel devastated and betrayed by the crackdown.

Addressing a forum at the Garma festival deep in the heart of a stringybark forest in north-east Arnhem Land, Rex Wild QC and Pat Anderson said they felt betrayed by the government.

The crackdown has been supported by the federal opposition and by a number of prominent Aboriginal leaders.

But Ms Anderson distanced herself from Canberra's actions to date, in particular the legislation the government plans to ram through parliament next week to authorise the scrapping of the permit system and the seizure of 73 remote Aboriginal communities under a five-year lease scheme.

"Let me say there is not a single action that the commonwealth has taken so far that corresponds with a single recommendation," Ms Anderson said.

"There is no relationship between this emergency protection and what's in our report."

The Little Children are Sacred report, commissioned by the NT government in August last year following damning reports of horrific child sexual abuse in remote Aboriginal communities, made 97 recommendations.

These included widespread community consultation, alcohol restrictions, improvements in family support services and education campaigns.

---

Indigenous plan 'won't protect children'

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Indigenous-plan-wont-protect-children/2007/08/07/1186252675018.html

Land rights measures in the federal takeover of indigenous communities in the Northern Territory will not protect children, the author of a new report says.

Professor Jon Altman, from the Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research, also believes the measures could lead to "five years of conflict" between blacks and whites.

Professor Altman said the government's acquisition of community leases and its changes to the permit system seem to have nothing to do with protecting children from abuse.

In a new report commissioned by Oxfam Australia on the government's radical takeover, Prof Altman also says those measures will be detrimental to the development of Aboriginal communities.

"I could find no evidence of the proposed measures being connected in any way to child sex abuse, and concluded that there may even be some risk of exacerbating the situation if the permit system is relaxed," Prof Altman said.

He said it was baffling that the government was not willing to subject any of its reforms to appropriate community consultation and parliamentary review.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Link-between-land-and-abuse-queried/2007/08/10/1186530610848.html

Many participants have asked an inquiry into the federal government's indigenous intervention how scrapping the Aboriginal lands permit system will combat child abuse.

The head of the taskforce overseeing the radical program used the hearing to defend the scheme, likening the Northern Territory's child abuse crisis to a tsunami that warranted urgent action without prior consultation.

It came as Australian Greens leader Bob Brown brandished a legal opinion warning the takeover of Aboriginal land on five-year leases was unconstitutional and could be struck down by the High Court.

The Senate's legal and constitutional affairs committee was given just one day to hold public hearings on the 500 pages of legislation that underpins Prime Minister John Howard's reforms for remote Aboriginal communities.

The measures - ostensibly to combat child abuse - include the federal takeover of indigenous towns on five-year leases, alcohol and pornography bans, quarantining of welfare payments, more police, medical checks for children and the scrapping of the Aboriginal lands permit system.

It is good that Bob Brown is standing up for our indigenous people in regard to their land being taken over.  The media talks about 5 year leases, but there is already one, and possibly two communities taken over by 99 year leases with the government.  

You have to wonder how this forced land takeover has anything to do with helping clean up child abuse.  I still believe it's all about a nuclear waste tip and uranium mining.


Quote:

DARWIN, August 3, 2007: The Tiwi Land Council (TLC) relied on false signatures and used bribes to entice locals to sign up to a 99-year lease, a Northern Territory court heard yesterday. An injunction was yesterday lodged in the NT Supreme Court against the TLC and the federal government over the signing of the controversial lease agreement. The community of Nguiu, on the islands north of Darwin, is set to become the first in Australia to accept the federal government initiative, which was passed in Canberra last month. Under the legislation, an executive director of township leasing would hold a 99-year lease over the township, subleasing the land to commercial developers. In May this year, traditional owners of Nguiu agreed in principle to the plan in exchange for $5 million in community funding, new housing, health and education facilities. They are yet to formally accept the offer. But in the NT Supreme Court in Darwin yesterday, the lawyer for local Adam Kerinauia, Tony Young, said the TLC failed to follow due process when it agreed to the deal and had not properly consulted all members of the community. "The plaintiff attacks the process of consent," he said, adding this was because of alleged bribery and false signatures being used on the agreement in May. "Not only does Mr Kerinauia say that it's not his signature, that he didn't sign the paper, he also says that he wasn't even there," he told the court as he referred to his client's affidavit. "It's my understanding ... that the ticks beside each person's name referred to that person having received $50 (for signing their name to the agreement)." http://www.nit.com.au/breakingnews/story.aspx?id=12205

I think the idea is to help get them out of poverty.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Calls-for-tough-alcoholfree-zone-fines/2007/08/13/1186857377692.html

NSW local area mayors have called for tougher penalties for those caught drinking in alcohol-free zones.

A News Ltd newspaper has reported more sports fans were fined in an alcohol-free zone outside the Sydney Cricket Ground than anywhere else in NSW.

In 2006, 231 fines were issued by NSW police for boozing in alcohol free areas.

About half of these $22 fines were never paid, the paper reported.

---

'Sundowners' to be banned at Uluru

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Sundowners-to-be-banned-at-Uluru/2007/08/27/1188067006253.html

Tourists at Uluru have long enjoyed a beer or glass of wine as they watch the sun set over the iconic red rock.

But the tradition of a chilled "sundowner" will be banned from next month, as part of the federal government's radical intervention in Northern Territory Aboriginal communities to try to stamp out child abuse.

---

Aboriginal literacy program a dismal failure

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22437551-421,00.html

A PROGRAM to lift Aboriginal literacy, school attendance and achievement has been a dismal failure and may even have made things worse.

An evaluation of the Partners for Success program, introduced in Queensland in 2003, found the gap between indigenous and non-indigenous achievement had widened in six of the nine benchmarks.

---

Alcohol courts a waste of money: figures

http://news.smh.com.au/alcohol-courts-a-waste-of-money-figures/20080304-1wqk.html

Official figures reveal alcohol courts are a waste of money and a "popgun" approach to the Northern Territory's grog problems, says the NT opposition.

It costs about $200,000 every year to run the alcohol courts, which were introduced across the territory 18 months ago.

Since then, 40,000 people have been taken into protective custody for being drunk in public.

But only 99 people have been referred on to the alcohol courts for punishment and treatment, according to official figured obtained by opposition legal affairs spokeswoman Jodeen Carney.

She said that only 27 of those people had successfully completed a court ordered treatment program.

"These official figures demonstrate the Labor government's much lauded alcohol courts are little used and even less effective," Ms Carney said.

What is the real agenda behind the NT scam?



The real face of Howard’s Northern Territory intervention: welfare cuts and community closures
By Susan Allan and Tania Baptist, Socialist Equality Party candidate for the Senate in Victoria
27 October 2007


In June, the Howard government announced a “national emergency” plan to take control of more than 70 Aboriginal communities throughout the Northern Territory (NT). Police and military forces were sent in, purportedly to protect Aboriginal children from sexual abuse. So great was the alleged urgency that the 1975 Racial Discrimination Act was suspended to allow for the racially-targeted intervention.

Four months on, not a single case of child abuse has been identified, and no charges or arrests for child sexual abuse have been made. But other police actions against the Aboriginal population have skyrocketed.

In the first three months of the operation, in seven communities alone, police made 63 arrests and issued 72 summonses, mostly for traffic offences, alcohol smuggling, domestic violence and assaults. By singling out Aboriginal areas for racially-based bans on alcohol and pornography, the government has only ensured that the imprisonment rate among indigenous people, who are already some 30 times over-represented in prisons, will rise. What the intervention has done, however, is highlight the shocking state of indigenous health and the lack of basic medical services. The government reports that 3,000 children have been examined in 34 communities. More than 80 percent have been found to be suffering from chronic ear, throat and nose conditions, directly related to inadequate and overcrowded housing conditions. It is already patently clear that the government has no intention of funding the intensive long-term and specialist care needed to address this situation. So far, around 40 doctors and 77 nurses have volunteered to carry out the medical checks, with 5 doctors and 26 nurses already completing a second deployment. But 30 communities have yet to be visited, meaning resources are so inadequate that not even an initial examination has been carried out on thousands of desperately needy children.

If any proof were needed that the military intervention had nothing to do with concerns about the welfare of Aboriginal children, this is it. By contrast to the lack of medical staff, 800 government officials have been dispatched, together with an additional 350 Centrelink staff, to implement the government’s takeover of community land and facilities, and to enforce welfare cuts and work-for-the-dole schemes. Among the officials are 25 business managers, with another 25 more to be appointed, who will displace the elected councils. As an example of what these people will be doing, the new manager at Yuendumu has drawn up a School Attendance Proposal, which calls for alleged truants to be rounded up each morning, questioned by police and, with the assistance of the elders, sent to clean up rubbish all day until they are “visibly tired”.


CDEP shutdowns and welfare “quarantining”

The government intervention is being utilised to carry through previously-prepared plans to abolish the Community Development Employment Programs (CDEP) scheme, and shut down supposedly “unsustainable” townships.

When it was established in 1977 by the Fraser Liberal government, CDEP was a forerunner of the “work for the dole” programs later imposed on all jobless workers. Through CDEP, Aboriginal people in remote areas, where there are few or no jobs, were compelled to perform cheap labour to provide basic social services. CDEP participants worked part-time for 16 hours a week, earning around $240 per week. In some cases, these wages could be “topped” up for extra hours, but many Aboriginal participants worked longer hours with no additional pay.

CDEP projects included municipal services, waste management, housing construction, home and community care work, aged care, child care, support for artists, land and sea management. In the absence of the usual government-organised and staffed services, CDEP projects became a financial lifeline for many communities, providing at least a modicum of income for participants and their extended families.

On July 23, one month after the intervention was launched, the Howard government announced that CDEP payments would be eliminated, forcing all recipients onto straight-out “work-for-the-dole” schemes. Aboriginal Affairs Minister Mal Brough cynically stated that the effect would be to move people into “real jobs, training and mainstream programs.” He failed to mention that these simply do not exist in most of the relevant localities."

contd here-


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/oct2007/abor-o27.shtml

I expect that domestic violence is strongly linked to child abuse. You cannot free the children without freeing the mothers.

---

http://news.smh.com.au/calls-for-ntstyle-intervention-in-qld/20080124-1nv3.html

Federal Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson says a Northern Territory-style intervention is needed to stamp out child abuse in Queensland Aboriginal communities.

Dr Nelson, visiting a number of communities on Cape York in Queensland's far north, said he was appalled and sickened by reports on Wednesday of the rape of two young boys by a group of older boys in the community of Kowanyama.

Police and child safety officials are investigating, but have yet to lay charges.

The Queensland government has rejected an intervention, arguing police are making more arrests and officer numbers are being boosted in remote communities.

Premier Anna Bligh said she was surprised by Dr Nelson's comments.

"They reveal, in my view, a remarkable ignorance about what his government did in the Northern Territory," Ms Bligh told reporters in Brisbane.

She said the intervention put police, health checks and alcohol management plans - already permanent in Queensland's indigenous communities - into Northern Territory communities that had none.

"The Northern Territory-style intervention ... was taking what is already happening in Queensland communities into the Northern Territory," she said.

"I would ask Brendan Nelson to, if he's interested in this issue, educate himself about what actually happens in Queensland communities."

---

Indigenous alcohol bans proposed for Qld

http://news.smh.com.au/indigenous-alcohol-bans-proposed-for-qld/20080206-1qk7.html

Queensland Premier Anna Bligh will discuss banning alcohol in indigenous communities when she meets with mayors in the state's far north next week.

Alcohol management plans, which restrict the type and quantity of alcohol that can be brought into communities and limit the trading hours of canteens, will dominate the talks in Cairns next Friday.

---

Alcohol ban 'cutting town violence'

http://news.smh.com.au/alcohol-ban-cutting-town-violence/20080207-1qrp.html

Controversial alcohol bans in a troubled West Australian town appear to be working, new figures show.

Major drops in alcohol-related domestic violence and injury have been reported in Fitzroy Crossing since the start of a six-month trial ban on the sale of full and mid-strength takeaway alcohol.

The Director of Liquor Licensing imposed the six-month ban in October last year following appeals by local women, who bear the brunt of alcohol-related violence in the Kimberley town.

---

Welfare payments 'not withheld' in NT

http://news.smh.com.au/welfare-payments-not-withheld-in-nt/20080221-1tlg.html

No welfare payments linked to school attendance have been withheld as part of the emergency intervention in Northern Territory indigenous communities.

Parents of school aged children were threatened with withdrawal of their welfare if their children did not attend school regularly.

---

Remote Aborigines 'using more cannabis'

http://news.smh.com.au/remote-aborigines-using-more-cannabis/20080304-1wtn.html

A move from petrol sniffing and alcohol to smoking cannabis is creating a whole new set of problems in remote Aboriginal communities, a new study shows.

The growing use of marijuana has also extended beyond youth to adults, says the report in the Australian Journal of Rural Health, using research from one Arnhem Land community in the Northern Territory.

The growth in cannabis use follows alcohol restrictions imposed by the federal intervention in the territory, and the roll-out of non-sniffable Opal fuel to combat petrol sniffing.

Report authors Dr Kate Senior and Dr Richard Chenhall, from the Menzies School of Health Research in Darwin, said marijuana was smoked at home and often had a more immediate impact on domestic violence and neglect than alcohol.

"The move from alcohol and petrol sniffing to marijuana use has created a new set of problems, many of which arise in the domestic setting, not outside the community," the report said.

"Rather than being a practice confined to distinct sub-populations - as was the case for drinking and sniffing petrol - marijuana use is widespread among both adults and youth."

As a result, Dr Senior said the prohibition of alcohol within the remote Aboriginal community "without any attendant efforts to address underlying social causes" had created a new set of problems.

---

Govt rejects Aboriginal law claim

http://news.smh.com.au/govt-rejects-aboriginal-law-claim/20080310-1yfy.html

The federal government has rejected opposition claims that Aboriginal law could be elevated above national law if Australia endorses a United Nations declaration on indigenous rights.

Opposition legal affairs spokesman George Brandis says he will ask his front bench to oppose the government's plans to endorse the declaration.

Qld hotelier fights state's liquor laws

http://news.smh.com.au/qld-hotelier-fights-states-liquor-laws/20080310-1ycu.html

A Queensland gulf country publican has mounted a legal challenge against state government-imposed liquor regulations which he says are sending his business broke.

Burketown Hotel owner Jeff Bambrick has challenged the state government's Liquor Licensing Division over alcohol-sale restrictions placed on the pub late last year.

The pub is the only hotel servicing the 180-strong community, 800km north-west of Townsville, and surrounding areas.

It is also the nearest pub to the Aboriginal community of Doomadgee, about 100km south-west of Burketown, where an alcohol management plan is in place.

The restrictions, placed on the hotel in an effort to limit the amount of alcohol coming into Doomadgee, ban the sale of cask wine and limit the sale of beer to two cartons a vehicle a day.

Mr Bambrick said he supported the alcohol management plan for Doomadgee but the restrictions were sending his business broke.

Mr Bambrick said the restrictions were impractical for those living on remote stations outside Burketown or tourists embarking on fishing trips.

"These people aren't going to travel 120 kilometres each day just to get two cartons - they come in and buy 10 cartons, take it back to where they live and you might not see them for another month," he said.

Queensland Premier Anna Bligh on Monday remained unapologetic about the restrictions and said the government was determined to enforce the alcohol laws.

---

$53m program to tackle binge drinking

http://news.smh.com.au/53m-program-to-tackle-binge-drinking/20080310-1yf7.html

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has announced a $53 million program as an initial attempt to put a cap on binge drinking among young Australians.

The program will contain a range of methods to tackle the problem in partnership with community and sporting clubs in particular.

---

Coalition digs in on indigenous permits

http://news.smh.com.au/coalition-digs-in-on-indigenous-permits/20080311-1yn7.html

The federal opposition will block government moves to change elements of the Northern Territory indigenous intervention, further threatening promised bipartisanship on indigenous issues.

The coalition determined during a joint party room meeting that it would vote against draft laws which would reinstate the controversial permit system, which gave Aborigines the right to exclude people from their land.

The opposition also is concerned that the new draft laws relax a ban on the transportation of prohibited material - such as pornography - through prescribed communities.

Another concern was that a ban on R-rated material in prescribed communities would be voluntary, rather than imposed.

---

Govt to probe Northern Land Council

http://news.smh.com.au/govt-to-probe-northern-land-council/20080317-1zyy.html

The federal government will investigate one of Australia's most powerful Aboriginal land councils amid claims it is plagued by in-fighting and facing a massive budget deficit.

The Commonwealth Office of Evaluation and Audit (OEA) will probe the Northern Land Council's (NLC) financial dealings, as well as relationships between its senior management and the elected executive, Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin and Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner announced.

---

NT intervention review needed: Allison

http://news.smh.com.au/nt-intervention-review-needed-allison/20080319-20cn.html

Aspects of the intervention into Northern Territory Aboriginal communities are not working and it should be reviewed quickly, Australian Democrats leader Lyn Allison says.

"I think we need to have a review of the intervention quite quickly because what we discovered in estimates was that a third of children are not being examined when the health teams come around."

Senator Allison said that figure told her it was likely those children who were not being screened were the vulnerable kids.

"It also says that people in the Northern Territory are very wary, they're very worried, that their children might be taken from them.

Senator Allison said some people were very upset about having their income quarantined.

"Some of them are pensioners who've had jobs all their life and are not in charge of children and are suddenly finding that they've got to go along with their voucher to the supermarket," she said.

"They feel reasonably aggrieved at that and I can understand why.

"It's what happens when there's a blanket approach."

---

Scrap journos ban in Aboriginal areas

http://news.smh.com.au/scrap-journos-ban-in-aboriginal-areas/20080320-20oj.html

Abuse of children and women in Aboriginal communities will continue unless the government scraps a requirement for journalists to get ministerial permission to visit, the federal opposition says.

Indigenous affairs spokesman, Tony Abbott, wants the government to change legislation on the NT indigenous intervention being debated in parliament.

The Howard government scrapped the permit system in NT indigenous communities in the wake of the Little Children are Sacred report into child abuse.

The new government is reintroducing the system, but is making an exception for government workers and journalists who will not have to seek permits.

Petrol sniffers double in Alice Springs

http://news.smh.com.au/petrol-sniffers-double-in-alice-springs/20080408-24k2.html

The number of petrol sniffers in Alice Springs has doubled in the last four weeks, sparking fears central Australia could face a second wave of the epidemic, youth workers say.

The rollout of the non-sniffable fuel Opal helped reduce the number of sniffers from about 100 at the town's peak to fewer than six addicts last year.

But Tristan Ray, from the Central Youth Link Up Service (CAYLUS), says at least 40 sniffers are now roaming Alice.

Four weeks ago there was only 20.

"Opal was only ever going to be a strategy that provided a window of opportunity to act on the underlying causes of sniffing," Mr Ray told AAP.

"That window has essentially started to close ... and there is a definite pick-up."

Mr Ray said the sniffing only appeared to be in the town of Alice, and not surrounding communities, and he blames a lack of commitment by both federal and territory governments to diversionary programs.

---

Treaty tops indigenous 2020 agenda

http://news.smh.com.au/treaty-tops-indigenous-2020-agenda/20080419-2795.html

An indigenous treaty has topped the priorities of Australia 2020 summit delegates examining Aboriginal issues.

About 100 of Australia's top indigenous leaders, thinkers and experts came together as part of the summit to discuss their ideas to improve indigenous people's lives.

The creation of a treaty proved the most popular suggestion, followed by the re-establishment of a national representative body, and the setting up of an indigenous future fund and a watchdog to oversee government action on indigenous issues.

Delegate Janina Gawler, speaking for her group of delegates, said the treaty should build on the government's intentions to endorse the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People.

"To formally recognise Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as the first people of Australia, involving a legal agreement as to the status, rights and obligations of indigenous people and the Australian government," Ms Gawler said.

Some delegates urged the government to establish a long-term endowment fund, to be overseen by independent trustees, to provide funding certainty for indigenous programs.

---

Qld bills aiming for dry communities

http://news.smh.com.au/qld-bills-aiming-for-dry-communities/20080429-298o.html

Changes to liquor, police and indigenous justice laws introduced to the Queensland parliament on Tuesday will help rid indigenous communities of alcohol.

Under the amendments, indigenous councils will divest their liquor licences by December 31, in return for a share of $101 million in state and federal funds for detoxification services.

Laws relating to drinking in public will be tightened, and restricted areas will be extended to include private residences and roads.

Travellers will be able to take alcohol into restricted areas, provided they can prove they are only passing through.

The laws also will crack down on sly grogging, and establish statutory community justice groups in the communities.

Four Cape York indigenous communities have also agreed to trial a new welfare system.

---

State Plan 'sham' on indigenous issues

http://news.smh.com.au/state-plan-sham-on-indigenous-issues/20080429-295x.html

The NSW government's State Plan has been labelled a "sham" by the opposition, which says damning figures on indigenous health have been deliberately left out of the report.

Among the information excluded from the report is an increase of 218 per cent over the past 12 years of the number of indigenous children admitted to hospital suffering gastroenteritis, NSW Nationals leader Andrew Stoner said.

"The omission of this statistic from the progress report speaks volumes about the shortcomings of the Iemma government's State Plan," Mr Stoner said in a statement.

"Morris Iemma is not worried about fixing the problems, he is worried about fixing the headlines.

---

Dozens of WA kids have STDs: opposition

http://news.smh.com.au/dozens-of-wa-kids-have-stds-opposition/20080507-2bv8.html

The West Australian government has been accused of failing to protect vulnerable children, including 53 Aborigines, from sexually transmitted diseases (STDs).

Opposition child protection spokeswoman Robyn McSweeney said in the four months from January 1 to May 6, 66 children presented with STDs in the state.

Of those, 53 were Aboriginal and 28 were from the Kimberley region, in the state's north, where police have launched a major crackdown on sexual abuse in the last 12 months.

Another nine victims were non-Aboriginal and four were of unknown ethnicity.

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Intervention has missed mark: NT govt

http://news.smh.com.au/national/intervention-has-missed-mark-nt-govt-20080609-2nsk.html

The Northern Territory government will tell those reviewing the Howard government's intervention into Aboriginal communities that scrapping permits and $100 grog caps have nothing to do with the protection of children.

Federal Indigenous Affairs Minister Jenny Macklin last week announced the makeup of the review board, headed by West Australian Aboriginal leader Peter Yu.

It will assess the effectiveness of the takeover in Aboriginal communities which was launched by the coalition almost a year ago.