http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/yoursay/index.php/theaustralian/comments/god_is_not_responsible/

WE live in curious, irritating times. We are oppressed by superstition and absurd ideologies. We must understand at the root of much that is wrong with the world is a single, common, insidious factor: religion. At least according to public atheists and anti-theists, a remarkable number of whom have devoted large amounts of air time and ink lately to bashing Christians in particular and religious believers in general (<em>writes John Heard</em>).

Militant atheists are right, then, to see religious believers in or behind many of the great struggles of our time. They are wrong, however, to then conclude that humankind must therefore scrap religion.

Examples of bad behaviour perpetrated by religious believers simply don’t tell us anything definitive about religions themselves and certainly nothing necessarily negative about the gods they posit.

This shows the central claim of many of the recent crop of atheistic books relies on a belief less tenable than the relatively well-documented resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth and a hypothesis that wouldn’t get past a first-year science student. For if the atheist authors bothered to investigate anything other than the most apparently bizarre topics of religious interest, they’d discover that only a belief that God directly controls the actions of believers - in other words, the kind of determinism that Christians and others long ago rejected - would make God somehow culpable for the violent actions of his followers.

Similarly, only scientific proof that a man's religious affiliation predicts his behaviour, a hypothesis long ago rejected by psychologists, would make religion an obviously poisonous thing.

Rather, those tragedies, these examples of war and violence seem to favour an interpretation more common to the great Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam): namely that we live in a degraded reality and that man, left to his own devices, is a fairly despicable creature.

In the absence of a divinely endorsed militia, the most obvious explanation for war and chaos is that humans take up arms and nations of humans continually declare war, and for many reasons. Sometimes we use religious claims to justify our actions, but these are most certainly human reasons, human interpretations of religious claims and human actions.

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WE live in curious, irritating times. We are oppressed by superstition and absurd ideologies. We must understand at the root of much that is wrong with the world is a single, common, insidious factor: religion.

YES!


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At least according to public atheists and anti-theists, a remarkable number of whom have devoted large amounts of air time and ink lately to bashing Christians in particular and religious believers in general

Muslims and jews more than christians.



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Militant atheists are right

Yes we are ;D


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see religious believers in or behind many of the great struggles of our time.

Its historical fact.


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They are wrong, however, to then conclude that humankind must therefore scrap religion.

Absurd statement.


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than the relatively well-documented resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth

People do NOT rise from the dead.


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only a belief that God directly controls the actions of believers -

That is what they claim.



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man, left to his own devices, is a fairly despicable creature.

That is true anyway- why fight it.


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In the absence of a divinely endorsed militia, the most obvious explanation for war and chaos is that humans take up arms and nations of humans continually declare war, and for many reasons.

Yeah, against opposing ideals and for land.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 12:52pm:

We must understand at the root of much that is wrong with the world is a single, common, insidious factor: religion. At least according to public atheists and anti-theists, a remarkable number of whom have devoted large amounts of air time and ink lately to bashing Christians in particular and religious believers in general.

not always true, people tend to blame religion for all the wars, but if u look at the last century the two biggest wars - WW1 & WW2 were not religious ones.

it's actually quite funny, South Park once made an episode about this issue, where it was set in the future when all religions were destroyed. In it's place were different athiest groups fighting against one another to ensure that their version of athiesm reins supreme - it was a very clever swipe at those athiests who think they are better than everyone else.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ah yes, the United Athiests League VS the League of United Atheists. And the AAA beavers.  ;D

I saw that too ;D

Good, so we can agree that it's not always religion that is the source of the world's problems.
if everyone tossed religion aside, then athiests would still muck it up.

Thats because we are MAN.

Ausnat wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 1:57pm:

Thats because we are MAN.

Exactly, we're humans and humans are flawed as no one is perfect.
So religion isn't to blame.

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Exactly, we're humans and humans are flawed as no one is perfect. So religion isn't to blame.

I think we'd be fighting less wars if there were limited religion.

Ausnat wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 2:11pm:

Quote: Exactly, we're humans and humans are flawed as no one is perfect. So religion isn't to blame. I think we'd be fighting less wars if there were limited religion.

so the occassional WW1 or WW2 is okay then?

Nationalism causes more wars than religion.

skeptic wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 2:12pm:

Ausnat wrote on Jun 7th, 2007 at 2:11pm: Quote: Exactly, we're humans and humans are flawed as no one is perfect. So religion isn't to blame. I think we'd be fighting less wars if there were limited religion. so the occassional WW1 or WW2 is okay then?

Its a natural occourance. WW2 would have never happened if the conclusion of WW1 was handled properly. The average major war happens about every 100 years. The previous major war to that were the Napoleonic wars from 1807 to 1815.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 2:14pm:

Nationalism causes more wars than religion.

No Nationalism causes less.

In high school history we were taught about the significant contribution that nationalism made to the initiation of both world wars. Religion never got a mention, nor should it have. I doubt Napolean was fighting for religious beliefs either. Lebensraum was not a religious belief, it was a belief that the interests of the German people were more important than those of their neighbours.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 2:56pm:

In high school history we were taught about the significant contribution that nationalism made to the initiation of both world wars. Religion never got a mention, nor should it have. I doubt Napolean was fighting for religious beliefs either. Lebensraum was not a religious belief, it was a belief that the interests of the German people were more important than those of their neighbours.

Thats correct Freediver. 3 wars of Nationalism over 130 years.

How many religious wars have been fought in the same time period FD? :D

Ausnat wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 3:05pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 7th, 2007 at 2:56pm: In high school history we were taught about the significant contribution that nationalism made to the initiation of both world wars. Religion never got a mention, nor should it have. I doubt Napolean was fighting for religious beliefs either. Lebensraum was not a religious belief, it was a belief that the interests of the German people were more important than those of their neighbours. Thats correct Freediver. 3 wars of Nationalism over 130 years. How many religious wars have been fought in the same time period FD? :D

i would rather look at the level of casualties in those wars, rather than the number of wars that occured. i think we can agree that WW1 & WW2 had more casulaties than any other religious-based war that occured over the same time period.

besides, there were more than 3 nationalist wars over that period, mainly smaller ones when compared to the two world wars - e.g. Boer War, Korea, Vietnam, etc.

Why don't you list a few religious wars from that period AN?

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i would rather look at the level of casualties in those wars, rather than the number of wars that occured. i think we can agree that WW1 & WW2 had more casulaties than any other religious-based war that occured over the same time period.

Its a lot of people i agree. But the argument IS about the number of wars fought.
The two world wars were technological.  Religious war is fought with small arms in comparison.
Only since israel became a warmonger did religious war step up to a larger scale.
I believe, that once (if) these ''holy wars'' finish the death toll will be higher than the two world wars combined.


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besides, there were more than 3 nationalist wars over that period, mainly smaller ones - e.g. Boer War, Korea, Vietnam, etc.

Yes the Boer war was a nationalist (small) war, but korea and vietnam were idealogical wars, capitalism vs communism.- side shows to the cold war.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 3:16pm:

Why don't you list a few religious wars from that period AN?

I didnt mean ''that period''(1807-1945) i meant 130 years outright, up till the present.
Hang on a bit while i get a book.

Ausnat wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 3:22pm:

Yes the Boer war was a nationalist (small) war, but korea and vietnam were idealogical wars, capitalism vs communism.- side shows to the cold war.

yep, idealogical wars - but they weren't religious wars (unless u consider communism & capitalism to be religions).

skeptic wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 3:24pm:

Ausnat wrote on Jun 7th, 2007 at 3:22pm: Yes the Boer war was a nationalist (small) war, but korea and vietnam were idealogical wars, capitalism vs communism.- side shows to the cold war. yep, idealogical wars - but they weren't religious wars (unless u consider communism & capitalism to be religions).

No, they have a different category.   Political idealogy.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 3:16pm:

Why don't you list a few religious wars from that period AN?

Ok, i have two here fought by european powers. ive no info on the rest of the world from this era.

Greek war of independence- Christians fought off the occupying muslim turks. 1821-22.

Crimean war - russia defending christians in southern russia against the turks. 1854-56.

Nationalism is a strong factor in all wars. You cannot have a war without it. Religion is rarely a major factor. There have been far bigger wars faught between Arabs in the middle east since Israel was created that were not religious wars.

Greek war of independence

Doesn't sound like a religious war to me.

Give examples Freediver.

freediver wrote on Jun 7^th, 2007 at 3:39pm:

Greek war of independence Doesn't sound like a religious war to me.

Yes it was.

WWI. WWII. Vietnam. Afghanistan. Iraq. With the last three, American nationalism was a big factor.

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WWI.

Yes


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WWII.

Half a yes. Patriotic war against japan, Jewish war against Germany.
Ever seen the newspaper Headline from 1933 which says ''Judea declares war on Germany''.


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Vietnam.

Idealogical- this war was VERY UNPOPULAR on the home front.


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Afghanistan.

Yes and no. Yes because of  11/9 attacks and no because if America had nothing to do with israel, it NEVER would have happened....so does the entire U.S population have nationalist feelings towards israel? i think not.


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Iraq.

War requested by Israel.


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With the last three, American nationalism was a big factor.

Yeah American/Israeli Nationalism ;D

Drop the absurd conspiracy. Most Americans or not zionists. They would think America is better and deserves to screw with the middle east as payback for 9/11 regardless of whether Israel existed. True, the existence of Israel is also a major factor in these conflicts, more so on the Arab side, but that is the existence of the country, not the existence of the jewish religion. While the Arabs may opress local jews, they have generally tolerated their presence. They do not tolerate the existence of a country ruled by them. This is more a 'pan Arab nationalism' than religious intolerance. If America set up a secular satellite state in the middle east they would be just as upset. They don't even like the idea of America setting up a Muslim democratic state.

C'mon FD, the Jews run the American government. That is why the U.S is so tightly bound to Israel.
The common American is not a zionist. Where did i say they were?

The American people run the American government. They are happy to have jewish people in it because they realise that a man's religious affiliation does not predict his behaviour.

Look at the image in DT's signature. He sees a crazy Arab spurred on by Islamism. I see another crazy nationalist. Nationalists need something about their 'nation' to give it identity. It may be religion, but often isn't. Choosing religion as part of that identity merely means that religion was a convenient common identifier for nationalist agitators. It doesn't mean that religion caused it, just like being Aryan didn't cause the Germans to rise up behind Hitler.

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The American people run the American government.

HA! Was the iraq war backed by the people? NO
Was it backed by Donald Rumsfeld and Israel? YES


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They are happy to have jewish people in it because they realise that a man's religious affiliation does not predict his behaviour.

And thats up to them; they can dig their own grave.


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Look at the image in DT's signature. He sees a crazy Arab spurred on by Islamism. I see another crazy nationalist.

So what.


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Choosing religion as part of that identity merely means that religion was a convenient common identifier for nationalist agitators.

And of the three major religions, None are compatible.


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It doesn't mean that religion caused it, just like being Aryan didn't cause the Germans to rise up behind Hitler.

Are jews and Europeans of the same race? NO.

Do you like being known as the GOYIM?
Have you read the Protocols of the learned elders of Zion?
Its a Good horror story.

HA! Was the iraq war backed by the people? NO

You should look at the polls on that one. Obviously after it started they got a bit more concerned.

Are jews and Europeans of the same race? NO.

No, but neither race nor religion caused WWII. It was rampant nationalism. Nationalism is far worse than religion because it is not self limiting. It is an ideology without boundaries that can be bent to whatever short term goals a leader or agitator has, far easier than religion can.

Do you like being known as the GOYIM?

It doesn't bother me any more than someone calling me athiest.

Have you read the Protocols of the learned elders of Zion?

I've read about them. They are generally regarded by competent historians as a hoax.

Its a Good horror story.

If you are going to make something up, you could do a lot better.

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Obviously after it started they got a bit more concerned.

You know, you could be right there, Americans love a winner and hate a loser.
They are a strange type.


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No, but neither race nor religion caused WWII. It was rampant nationalism. Nationalism is far worse than religion because it is not self limiting. It is an ideology without boundaries that can be bent to whatever short term goals a leader or agitator has, far easier than religion can.

If placed in the wrong hands Freediver.


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It doesn't bother me any more than someone calling me athiest.

Fair enough, well, we are infidels arent we. so to hell with their term.


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Have you read the Protocols of the learned elders of Zion? I've read about them. They are generally regarded by competent historians as a hoax. Its a Good horror story. If you are going to make something up, you could do a lot better.

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Did i call it a horror story or a horrific fact freediver?
Think before you leap.

If placed in the wrong hands Freediver.

That's part of the problem. Religions tend to end up with leaders who are not warmongers. Nationalists seem to inevitably end up with leaders who are.

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Religions tend to end up with leaders who are not warmongers. Nationalists seem to inevitably end up with leaders who are.

What about Islam?

In Australia, i hardly see it as being possible for a Nationalist government to become an agressor in the region with our small population. It would be suicidal.

Most Islamic leaders are not warmongers. Bin Laden is not a leader. He is hiding up in the hills, hiding from Muslims just as much as from Bush. Saddam was not an Islamic leader. He was a dictator and did not claim any religious mandate to rule. He did however use nationalism to promote the wars he started. Most real Islamic leaders are trying to reign in calls to jihad.

Whatever. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

freediver - most muslim leaders know and use correctly taqiya. Hilali does not.
What do you think of the numerous koran quotes ?
Israel is the only democracy left in the middle east. Israel is now being pushed into the sea. One of the "commands" in the koran has about been done.

Ausnat - as far as I see every religion is entirely compatible, bar one.

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Israel is the only democracy left in the middle east. Israel is now being pushed into the sea. One of the "commands" in the koran has about been done.

Far from it sprint.


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Ausnat - as far as I see every religion is entirely compatible, bar one.

Bar a few.

ausnat - I see no animosity between any other belief aside muslim.
            possibly the only incompatible other belief would be satanism and christianity/jews.

All the rest can live together perfectly well. we don't have to agree entirely, just be able to live together, be compatible.



you may be right, maybe israel is the only nonmuslm state left there ?

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ausnat - I see no animosity between any other belief aside muslim.             possibly the only incompatible other belief would be satanism and christianity/jews.

What about hindu's? they do not assimilate.


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you may be right, maybe israel is the only nonmuslm state left there ?

No i meant they are not being pushed to the sea.

oh, I don't know much about hindus.
One at work is a musician, so he gets bonus points in my books . :-)
(Listening to Aretha Franklin in front of an orchestra now .............)

the only nonmuslim religious spat happens between hindus and christrians in north india .
they believe in Jesus and other spirits?



Where else is israel to go ? they are cornered

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Where else is israel to go ? they are cornered

Back to auszwich. :o :P

That's not funny AN.

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None of these groups sprung up to fulfill a religious agenda. They all arose in response to specific grievances. They were formed for political reasons.

Terrorist groups forming links: report

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Terrorist-groups-forming-links-report/2007/06/12/1181414294024.html

The war on terror has caused geographically and ideological diverse terrorist groups to join together to fight against the west as a common enemy, a government-led parliamentary committee has found.

The groups had began in diverse geographical locations including Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon, Pakistan, Iraq and Uzbekistan, Mr Jull said, but many had become connected.

"The committee concluded that all of these organisation have been localised groups growing out of specific grievances and particular conflicts.

"For most, it has the advent of the war on terrorism that has extended their reach and their objectives - to the establishment of a regional caliphate, to providing fighters into other fields of battle, to cross funding through the al-Qaeda network.

"Individual conflicts are now seen as part of a larger conflict and they appear to feed on and reinforce each other, bringing experience and skill learned in one place to other disputes.

"And, with wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the focus has broadened from opposition to local 'apostate' governments to a larger enemy in the west."

The committee was considering whether to recommend against the relisting of the seven groups as terrorist organisations.

Mr Jull said the committee, on which the government has a majority, had concluded that proscription could play only a limited role in combating terrorist activities.

Other solutions, such as the settlement of longstanding disputes, might more effectively undermine support for violence, he said.

http://news.smh.com.au/religion-unfairly-blamed-for-wars-pell/20071223-1ioa.html

Religion has been unfairly blamed for conflicts around the world in recent years, but Christians should remember the benefits of their devotion, Sydney Catholic Archbishop George Pell says.

The archbishop said God and his believers were not to blame for the world's wars or crimes and Christians should remember the benefits of their devotion.

"...God has been attacked angrily here and there in the English-speaking world and believers have been accused of causing most of the wars and crimes in history," Cardinal Pell said.

"This is an exaggeration as the moral monsters of the twentieth century Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists and Hitler bitterly hated Jews and Christians.

"But all believers have to acknowledge the downside of their long story, while asking that their positive contributions are also recorded."

"As we celebrate again the birth of the helpless newly-born Christ child, we should remember the sick and the sad, the lonely and the angry and reach out to help them."